Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Frederick Browning


 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.  No further edits should be made to this discussion.


 * Promoted by The ed17 06:29, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Frederick Browning

 * Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (talk)

Not many A-class articles on British generals. Many are deserving of high-quality articles. But Boy Browning would probably not be the first to come to mind.

Did you know that he: Hawkeye7 (talk) 09:18, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Claimed to have been born in the piano department of Harrods?
 * Competed in the bobsleigh at the 1928 Winter Olympics?
 * Carried teddy bears in his pack during Operation Market-Garden?

 Comments Support
 * Well, there may be better-known British generals but few more interesting to write about I think, so don't blame you for taking it on...
 * Prose/content-wise, generally looks good although there were a fair few typos and writing was a little bit choppy and samey, plus I was left wanting more context in places; performed usual copyedit but a few points:
 * I don't think his status as a guards officer and bobsleigher really belongs in the first line. I'd suggest simply "...was a senior commander in the British Army" or something similar, then launch into your current second sentence re. "father of the British airborne forces", etc.
 * Done. A little queasy about putting his being an Olympian further down. He is unusual in that his wife is more famous than he is, but he is not famous as "Mr du Maurier". Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:29, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * At least you still have it in the first para... ;-) I think it reads really well now, improving on the wording I suggested. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:07, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Like to see the field narrowed a bit re. the "some" who saw him as "a ruthless and manipulative empire builder who brooked no opposition". Don't need names if it was no-one famous but were they subordinates, peers, politicans or who?
 * Added a bit from Gavin, naming some prominent generals, although this gets split from the initial comments to keep things in chronological order. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:29, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Yep, reckon if it's prominent people they may as well be named. I think we've lost the original comment/quote though, which even if it were an historian would still serve as a useful intro to the generals' quotes. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:07, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Restored quote from William F. Buckingham. He wrote his PhD on the airborne forces, but is not famous enough to have his own article. Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:16, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I think we're left hanging re. Torch; after he agitated so strongly to get his his troops involved, how did they go in the end?
 * Alright. Added a bit, including a link to Skinny87's article. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:29, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "On 16 April 1944 he officially became commander of I Airborne Corps, a title he had already assumed" -- I don't think the last clause works unless you can put a date to his unofficial assumption.
 * Done. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:36, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Again in Market Garden, I think we need a bit more context/detail, say a few more sentences between his famous warning and the bit about his teddy bears -- what about him overriding intel warnings of German tanks at Arnhem for instance, and/or some other tidbits from the planning stage?
 * Added a bit on the intel and drop zones. Not sure about the teddy bears. I think it had something to do with his three children, but cannot find a source to explain it. Hawkeye7 (talk) 02:57, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "His use of 38 aircraft to move his corps headquarters on the first lift has been criticised" -- I don't doubt it but why exactly and by whom (i.e. contemporary observers or historians or both)?
 * I have a feeling that "Wikipedians on the talk page" is not a reliable source... Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:36, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed.... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:07, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Added a bit. Hawkeye7 (talk) 02:55, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Referencing seems okay to me.
 * Images are good and nice to see some colour in an article mainly focussed on WWII. Licensing generally appears appropriate but the one of the shoulder flash appears contradictory to me -- product of the British government yet being released by a user as his own work...
 * Yes, there is a common belief that the war was fought in black and white. I also have a colour print of the main photograph (right), Boy Browning.jpg but decided not to use it because it i smaller. Annoyingly, although both prints come from the IWM, they have different dates. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:36, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I've seen that with AWM images too. I do like the colour one but not sure how good it would be at the infobox's larger size. At least you have colour elsewhere -- I think the only bios I've done with even one colour image are Dicky Williams and George Jones so you're doing well with this one... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:07, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Browning was a colourful general. Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:16, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Structure-wise, a couple of things:
 * As the Early Life section is only one para, you could afford to combine it with First World War.
 * You could afford to, but much as I hate to disagree with Ian, I think the article looks tidier with the section as it is. HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?
 * I'm not a fan of Honours and Awards sections and this one seems especially unnecessary given it pretty well repeats the list in the infobox, while the dates and citations are already in the main body, as they should be.
 * Seconded. If they're not already, the honours and awards should be mentioned and referenced in the prose. HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   22:27, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * They are all in the prose, so I have deleted the section. Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:58, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Reckon the last section could stand to be called Legacy rather than Media, especially since the current title isn't really appropriate for the barracks and museum. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:29, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:16, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, happy to support now that all comments on text have been addressed. Re. the shoulder flash, while it may not be an image you uploaded, I think you should still look at resolving this apparent contradiction in the licensing as I'd expect it to come up again at FAC. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:37, 29 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm working my way through here and will post any thoughts as they come to me. I have to say, I'm looking forward to this one—it's not often I get to review an article on a British general. Also, worth pointing out that this will be (as far as I can see) the only A-class British general biography when it passes (and we only have two FAs on British generals, so it's a pleasure to see more). HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   22:27, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Comments: HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts? That's as far as Frederick Browning. I'll finish off at a more sociable hour. HJ Mitchell &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   23:44, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Institutions like Harrods and Eton are likely to be alien to readers from outside the Empire Commonwealth. ;) Perhaps a little explanation might be worthwhile?
 * I'll try... I had a vague feeling that to a British reader "Harrods", "Eton" and "the Guards" conjures an image of a certain kind of officer... Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:58, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Why do we have a redlink to Henry Streatfield? Did he make Major General later or is he notable for something other than his eventual rank? Since the bloke doesn't have an article, a very concise explanation of why he's notable would be nice.
 * No, he never became a general officer. I red-linked him because the author of Royal Households of the United Kingdom had done so. You might want to write him up. He sounds like an interesting guy. Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:58, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Any idea if he met Churchill or had any particular interaction with him? Might make for an interesting titbit if it's documented somewhere. And if Churchill was a major, wouldn't he be the company commander, and so Browning would have served under him rather than alongside him?
 * No, I think Curchill was company 2ic; but they did get to know each other. I will add a bit. Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:58, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:16, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
 * a junior officer like Browning—a gentle reminder of Brownings's rank (still a second lieutenant?) wouldn't go amiss.
 * Done. Hawkeye7 (talk) 02:55, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 * What was he doing in Caterham? What did he do between the end of 1921 and 24?
 * He was a training officer. I can add a bit. Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:58, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Did he serve in theatre with any of the people from that list? It's quite a long list and I'm not 100% sold on the encyclopaedic value of a list of his notable friends.
 * He served under O'Connor and Dempsey in NW Europe and worked with Dempsey in SE Asia. I mentioned Chink because he appears later. People interested in military prospography always like those bits. Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:58, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Can you think of a way to gently introduce the reader to the sport stuff? The article seems to move quite abruptly from his military career to his sport.
 * Will do. Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:58, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
 * What did he do between December '37 and August '39?
 * He commanded the 1st Battalion in the UK. I think it says that. Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:58, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Support. Apologies for the delay in getting back to this, but having read through the rest of the article, I don't see any issues that should prevent promotion to A-class. Hopefully you'll take it to FAC when this is wrapped up. HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   17:38, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Anotherclown (talk) 13:30, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Support - only a few minor comments:
 * No dabs, external links check out and the citation check tool reveals no errors (no action required).
 * The Earwig tool (here ) reveals no copyvio issues or close paraphrasing (no action required).
 * Some of the images have alt text and others do not, so you might consider adding it for consistency (not required though of course).
 * Added. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:28, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Images seem appropriately licenced where required, although [[File:Sosabowski Browning.jpg]] seems to lack author and source details etc. Can these be added if available?
 * All I know is that the original is in the Sikorski Museum in London. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:28, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * There were a couple of dashs that needed to be fixed (done now so no action required).
 * References look good to me other than some minor inconsistency in the presentation of ISBNs. Particularly sometimes you use hypthens and in other instances you do not.
 * What I do is copy them from the books. I'll try and fix them up; an automated tool is required. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:28, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Tense here I think: "There is no satisfactory explanation for why he did it, but a ramp has to be provided for the horse to return..." should this be "but a ramp had to be"...?
 * Ooops. Misunderstanding here. I wanted it to say that Browning needed no ramp in order to emphasise what a feat of horsemanship it was. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:28, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Missing word or grammer here: "the newly formed division as it underwent a prolonged of expansion and intensive training..." probably "a prolonged period of expansion"?
 * Added missing word. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:28, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Not sure about this: "2nd Battalion of the US 503rd Parachute Infantry", perhaps "2nd Battalion, US 503rd Parachute Infantry"?
 * Done. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:28, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Overlinking of Brigadier-General James M. Gavin (i.e. " Brigadier-General James M. Gavin recalled" and "Brigadier-General James M. Gavin, the US 82nd Airborne Division's commander"). Should only be linked once and at second instance should only use his surname (i.e. just Gavin) per WP:SURNAME.
 * Caused by adding a bit earlier during this review. Done. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:28, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Some inconsistency in the presentation of ranks. By and large you hyphenate but here you don't "Browning had an American deputy, Major General Horace H. Fuller".
 * Made consistently dashes, per UK English. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:28, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Not sure about this construction: "the Browning Barracks", I think this might just be "Browning Barracks" instead.
 * Done. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:28, 31 May 2011 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.