Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/French battleship Charles Martel

Article promoted by Gog the Mild (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 15:20, 14 December 2020 (UTC) &laquo; Return to A-Class review list

French battleship Charles Martel
Instructions for nominators and reviewers
 * Nominator(s): and 

At long last, Sturm and I have returned for another collaboration on a French battleship, thanks in large part to the labor of the naval historians John Jordan and Philippe Caresse, whose recent publications have made possible many of these fun French warship articles we've been doing lately ;) Thanks in advance to those who take the time to review the article. Parsecboy (talk) 15:57, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Comments Support from Hog Farm
I'll take a look. Hog Farm Bacon 18:32, 25 September 2020 (UTC)


 * "She spent the years 1902–1914 mostly in reserve, and decommissioned the vessel in early 1914 - Decommissioned is the verb, but there's no clear subject performing the action, as the ship obviously isn't decommissioning itself.
 * The infobox length figure is length overall, but that length figure is in the prose as the perpendicular length
 * The displacement at normal load figure in the prose is given as 11839, but in the infobox, you have 11836
 * The complement figures differs between the infobox and the prose
 * Have the range in the infobox, maybe?

More to come. Ready for the service history part. Hog Farm Bacon 19:03, 25 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Full commission date varies between the prose and the infobox. (20 Feburary 1897 vs. June 1897)
 * "replace active vessels had to be docked for maintenance - Missing a word in here
 * Is Contre-Amiral Adam's full name known?
 * He's not in my biographical dictionary of French admirals and not in the French wiki either.
 * This is almost certainly Achille Victor Adam (1852–1942). Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:24, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
 * You got a source for that? 'Cause I'm not coming up with anything.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 23:04, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The obituary in Ouest-France of 2 February 1942, see the scan here, which clearly says that he was the commandant of the 2e Division de ligne of the 2e Escadre du ligne as the second of the three assignments he had after being promoted to contre-amiral on 21 January 1909 and his retirement due to age at the end of 1914. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:06, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
 * "and her 138.6 mm gun were placed on wheeled " - Singular/plural discrepancy here

That's it from me. Good work. Hog Farm Bacon 02:32, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Hard to forget about your own nom, but I managed. Thanks for combing through the article to find all these embarrassing nits.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 12:40, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Comments Support by PM
This looks good. A few comments: That's it. Nice job thus far. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:29, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * the lead says she was commissioned in June 1897, the infobox and body say February 1897. Copypaste?
 * "She and her half-sisters were disappointments in service" it isn't clear if we are again talking about this Charles Martel or the other one, or its sister Brennus. Suggest "The new Charles Martel and her..."
 * link Capsizing
 * suggest "Many of the problems that plagued the ships in service, and particularly their stability and seakeeping, were a result of the limitation on their displacement."
 * no full load displacement in the infobox?
 * for the engine output, link kW in the conversion
 * link main battery in the lead (and move up to first mention in the body)
 * are main, intermediate and secondary the right ways of describing the armament? I've not seen this before to my knowledge. Shouldn't it be primary, secondary and tertiary?
 * For this period, it's correct, but goes out of fashion after WWI
 * suggest "on the superstructure and in the military masts" unless I'm misunderstanding the nature of masts at this stage, they were on the masts, not in them?
 * the number of 65 mm guns (as built) doesn't match between the infobox and body, unless you are going for the post-sea trial changes?
 * Yes, as I carefully stated that the infobox was "as completed", not "as built"
 * same for 47 mm guns
 * you could put the 37 mm guns in the infobox, but same query as above
 * the top of the belt range in the infobox doesn't match the body
 * what was the armour on the front of the main turrets?
 * you could put the barbettes in the infobox
 * suggest "Charles Martel, together with her half-sisters Carnot, Jauréguiberry, and the older battleships Brennus and Marceau, sank the aviso Pétrel."
 * why did the training torpedo hit cause an uproar?
 * Don't have the book to hand, but I've requested it from ILL, so I'll have to wait to answer your question.
 * Not to worry, add it when/if you can. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:11, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
 * comma after "and his wife"
 * Besson is Joseph Pierre Auguste Besson, the source is Le Nouvelliste du Morbihan of 28 january 1938 here.
 * "while the inspector was observing firing exercises"
 * see above re: CA Adam
 * link Hulk (ship type) and barracks ship (I know Sturm doesn't like doing this)
 * author-link Thomas Brassey, 1st Earl Brassey
 * Thanks for your thorough review, although I was unable to address one issue that your brought up.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 02:16, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
 * No worries, supporting. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:11, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Eddie
Really good work as usual, that's it from me. Eddie891 Talk Work 16:51, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
 * "she sometimes served as a prison ship." sometimes implies more than once, but based on the article there was only one time
 * "The basic design for the ships was based on the previous battleship Brennus," might be worth clarifying that it was a french battleship?
 * "Five naval architects submitted designs to the competition" what competition?
 * Rephrased
 * "After Aube's retirement," year?
 * "following an accident aboard Jauréguiberry with her welded tubes" I'm a bit confused here as to what's being said
 * Reworded, any better?
 * "and Conte-amiral Germain Roustan" different from Contre-amiral?
 * Oops
 * is it worth adding dates to the postcards and sketches?
 * Add where known
 * Why do military ranks use italics?
 * Terms in foreign languages are italicized by MOS; the exception is that names of organizations are not
 * " which created an uproar in the press," do we know why, or what sort? Given its mention in the lede I expected some more on it
 * Clarified.
 * " hauled down his flag" I think you can be a bit more explicit about what this means
 * "The ship was maintained in a state of en disponibilité armée, a state of reduced readiness with a minimal crew. Charles Martel was in full commission for three months of the year, and in reserve with a reduced crew for the remainder." maybe connect the two (if they are connected) with "When in this state, Charles Martel was in full commission" or something?
 * "her guns were removed for use on the front" I don't see any specific mention of use on the front, though I probably just missed it, in the article.
 * What her specific guns did during the war is unknown
 * Similarly, where is "been surpassed by more modern battleships during a period of rapid developments in naval technology." mentioned in the article?
 * Thanks for looking this over, see if my changes are satisfactory.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 10:11, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me, happy to support Eddie891 Talk Work 12:27, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Image review - pass
All images are appropriately licenced, positioned and captioned. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:50, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Source review

 * There's no link for The Times.
 * The template used won't allow it
 * May I ask you why doesn't allow it? Cheers. CPA-5

(talk) 19:10, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
 * You can certainly ask, but The Times has its own template which does not link the name for reasons unknown to me. --Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 21:37, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I see, well if it's unknown maybe one day, if it will be put into FAC maybe someone else there knows the problem. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 14:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Is there a volume for Brassey and all the editions of him are in the same OCLC?
 * It's an annual and so only gets one OCLC # for the whole series
 * Caresse's link says "Bloomsbury USA" instead of Oxford: Osprey?
 * Osprey is an imprint of Bloomsbury
 * Google Books says Compton-Hall's source was made in 2003 instead of 2004?
 * Deleted entirely as it didn't reference what it should have referenced.
 * WorldCat gives me a totally different title of Cooper; it gives me "United States Naval Institute proceedings."? Cooper also doesn't have a location?
 * Magazines don't get locations and the journal has had a few subtly different names over its lifetime.
 * What's the current title and is it possible to find a book code who use "United States Naval Institute proceedings."? Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 12:09, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
 * The ISSN is the magazine equivalent of an ISBN and stays the same regardless of changes of title.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:33, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
 * --Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:08, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I've replied to your response and I'm waiting for your counter-reply. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 16:14, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

That's anything, just only minor issues except for The Times. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 11:43, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Palmer says "Hazell's Annual" as title while WorldCat says "Hazell's annual cyclopaedia."?
 * Think that's everything. Thanks for taking the time to review this.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 10:17, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
 * This looks as if it can be wrapped up, . Happy to pass the source review? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:14, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me and it meets the requirements of highly reliable sources. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 14:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)