Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/French battleship Justice

Article promoted by Gog the Mild (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 20:20, 29 June 2023 (UTC) &laquo; Return to A-Class review list

French battleship Justice
Instructions for nominators and reviewers
 * Nominator(s): 

After a hiatus of (I think) at least a few years, WP:OMT is once again making an appearance at ACR (which will hopefully be more of a routine occurrence going forward!) I bring you Justice (no, not that one and only for some of you), a French pre-dreadnought battleship that saw (if monotonous) service during World War I. Actually, the ship's career before and after the war was a fair bit more interesting, being involved in a number of accidents, having an early film produced about her in 1911, and being part of a mutiny in 1919. In any event, thanks for taking the time to review the article. Parsecboy (talk) 18:12, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

HF - support
I'll take a look here later this week; will be a few days though because I'm going out of town for work. Hog Farm Talk 14:33, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
 * February 1908 commissioning date is in the infobox but not anywhere else
 * Think that must have been from an old version of the article - fixed
 * "Justice began having trouble with her main battery" - do the sources give any details on the nature of these issues?
 * No, unfortunately - mechanical problems of some sort, it'd be safe to assume, but I can't say what
 * "company with the destroyers Lansquenet " - link on Lansquenet goes to a ship list page
 * Good catch
 * "but following the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand and the ensuing July Crisis prompted the fleet to remain close to port" - not sure that this is grammatical. Maybe a word missing?
 * Reworded
 * " In mid-1916, she became involved in events in Greece, being stationed in Salonika to put pressure on the Greek government" - the body doesn't seem to put this particular emphasis on Salonika over the other stationing points
 * Tweaked the body to make this clearer
 * Sources all look reliable

I think that's all from me. Hog Farm Talk 00:14, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks Hog Farm! Parsecboy (talk) 10:21, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Support by Nick-D
Interesting article. At the risk of being pedantic/snarky, I've developed a few articles within scope of OMT to A-class over the last few years ;) I have the following non-snarky comments: Support Those changes look good, and I'm happy to support this nomination. Nick-D (talk) 10:56, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
 * "mid-1900s" - most people will think that means the 1950s or similar
 * You whippersnappers!
 * The first sentence of the 'Design' section is over-complex
 * Reworded
 * "Tests to determine whether the main battery turrets could be modified to increase the elevation of the guns (and hence their range) proved to be impossible," - I think that there are some missing words here (e.g. what was found to be impossible? The test or the modifications?)
 * Fixed
 * It might be worth noting why the ship was completed despite being of an outdated design
 * It would probably be impossible to source such an explanation - Justice was launched well before work began on Dreadnought, and it would have been impossible to alter the design by that late state of construction. The cost of completing the ships was also already baked into the budgets for 1907 and 1908. Add to that the political realities of doing anything other than simply completing them as planned (what's the navy going to do, go to parliament and say "hey, we just wasted millions of francs on ships that are no good, give us more money please"). More or less every major navy finished building their last generation of pre-dreadnoughts after Dreadnought was commissioned - heck, the British completed the Lord Nelson-class battleships after Dreadnought (the real question mark is why the French continued with the Danton-class battleships, which were all laid down after Dreadnought, but that's another story for another day).
 * "shooting training" - 'gunnery training' seems the more common term
 * Fixed
 * Watch out for long/complex sentences. I've split up a couple. Nick-D (talk) 06:26, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks Nick! Parsecboy (talk) 14:03, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Image review

 * Images properly licensed.
 * Not sure that File:French battleship Justice illustration.jpg really adds much to the article
 * Captions are generally sentence fragments and don't use a period
 * Fixed - don't know when those crept in
 * Is the caption on File:Justice leading the French fleet.png original to the source? 'Cause it looks to me like the ships aren't going anywhere just yet. I'd swear that Justice's anchor is still down and I suspect that they're raising steam.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:39, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't recall now, that was more than a decade ago that I uploaded it! I agree that it doesn't appear correct - I've tweaked it. Thanks Sturm. Parsecboy (talk) 18:26, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Support--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:16, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Comments Support by Zawed
Pulling up my chair for this one. Zawed (talk) 05:41, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Modifications
 * Instead, the navy determined that tanks...: as determined is used in the previous sentence, to avoid repetition, suggest replacing it with "found that".
 * Works for me
 * On 8 December 1915, the naval command issued orders...: what's "naval command"? The French equivalent of the Admiralty?
 * It's unfortunately something of a placeholder - Jordan & Caresse simply state that A directive dated 8 December 1915 established..." without telling who. It might have been the Conseil supérieur de la Marine, but I don't know for sure.
 * Because it relates to different technical matter compared to the rest of this section, suggest putting the stuff regarding rangefinders into its own paragraph.
 * Done

Construction – 1910
 * An exact date is given for the ship being laid down, but only month/year in infobox
 * Good catch
 * Beginning on 10 June and lasting through and July, the..: something missing here, may be "and July" should be "to July"?
 * Fixed

World War I
 * ...Danton-class battleships Condorcet and Vergniaud, which took over...: Don't think the "which" should be there.
 * Fixed - must've forgot how I started that sentence halfway through!
 * ...by the French naval command to withdraw...: ditto my comment from the Modifications section regarding naval command but your response there may resolve this one. I see the term is used again in the Postwar career section
 * Another vague placeholder - Jordan & Caresse present that a decision was made, but don't say who ordered it (though they do note that Boué de Lapeyrère wrote a letter to the naval minister in reference to the torpedoing of Jean Bart)
 * ...launched a coup against the monarchy...: for sake of clarity, suggest "Greek monarchy"
 * Good idea

Postwar career
 * Black Sea had been designed the 2nd Squadron...: presumably "designed" should be "designated"
 * Good catch
 * ...though the dreadnoughts continued.: wording not quite right here, I assume you are wanting to say the crews of the dreadnoughts continued with the mutiny.
 * Clarified
 * Justice thereafter being reduced to a training ship.: suggest replace "being" with "was".
 * Done
 * The year of breaking up needs to be added to the text here, the infobox says 1922.
 * Fixed. Thanks Zawed! Parsecboy (talk) 10:03, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Comments as above. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 06:35, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * ? Gog the Mild (talk) 21:19, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the poke Gog - I was on a trip when Zawed posted their comments, and didn't see it. I'll tackle these now. Parsecboy (talk) 09:30, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Have added my support. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 11:04, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Source review
I thought that I'd done this ages ago, but guess not.
 * Suggest adding a link to Halpern
 * Cites and bibliography consistently formatted
 * Sources are known to be of the highest quality.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:59, 28 June 2023 (UTC)