Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Günther Lützow


 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Anotherclown (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 11:06, 22 April 2016 (UTC) &laquo; Return to A-Class review list

Günther Lützow

 * Nominator(s): MisterBee1966 (talk)

I am nominating this article for A-Class review because it should be close to the criteria. Günther Lützow served in the Spanish Civil War and was the second pilot to claim 100 victories. He was killed in the final days of the war in Europe, his exact fate remains unknown. I hope you enjoy the read. Thanks for any feedback MisterBee1966 (talk) 18:22, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Support Comments:
 * Good work on this. I made a few tweaks, but also have the following suggestions: AustralianRupert (talk) 05:54, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * he really looks angry in the infobox image; I guess I don't like having my photo taken either! (no action required)
 * photo shop? I guess nothing I can do here to make him smile. MisterBee1966 (talk) 07:09, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * in the lead, "including two victories flying the Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighter, one of which was a four-engined bomber" --> "including two victories&mdash;one of which was a four-engined bomber&mdash;flying the Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighter"
 * done MisterBee1966 (talk) 07:09, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * "an older sister, Liselotte (Elisabeth Charlotte), a younger brother, Hildegard, and the youngest brother, Joachim..." --> "an older sister, Liselotte (Elisabeth Charlotte), and two younger brothers, Hildegard and Joachim..."
 * reworded, but not exactly as requested MisterBee1966 (talk) 07:39, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Looks good, I'd wondered about that, but I wasn't sure about German names. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 10:05, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
 * "He and 29 other trainees attended what was called Kameradschaft 31..." --> "He and 29 other trainees were part of Kameradschaft 31..."
 * done MisterBee1966 (talk) 07:12, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * "flew in the navigator position..." --> " flew in the navigator's position"
 * done MisterBee1966 (talk) 07:10, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * "Lützow volunteered for service with the Condor Legion, a unit composed of volunteers from the Luftwaffe and from the Heer which served with the Nationalists during the Spanish Civil War." --> "During the Spanish Civil War, Lützow volunteered for service with the Condor Legion, a unit composed of volunteers from the Luftwaffe and from the Heer which served with the Nationalists."
 * done MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:21, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * "aircraft, and shot down on 22 August 1937..." --> "...aircraft, which he shot down on 22 August 1937"
 * done MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:21, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * "World War II in Europe began on Friday 1 September 1939, when German forces invaded Poland." This seems a little ineligant. Did Lutzow participate in the invasion of Poland? If not, I suggest making this a bit clearer.
 * done, added more context MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:15, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
 * "This act ensured Lützow got in trouble with the SS and the NSDAP". I wonder if this could be explained a little more. In what way did he get into trouble? Was he investigated?
 * inconclusive, I reworded MisterBee1966 (talk) 12:43, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * " The behavior of Lützow and the other leading pilots was regarded as mutiny by Göring". Perhaps this could be clarified. What did they do? Did they refuse to fly?
 * I added more context, please check if this helps. MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:05, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
 * " An examination of U.S. records indicates that Lützow's..." who examined these records? e.g. "According to Smith, an examination..."
 * done MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:18, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
 * "Unable to recover from this dive, the American pilots observed the Me 262 crashing into a small hill. This Me 262 may have been piloted by Lützow" v. "and Second Lieutenant William H. Myers then jointly went after another Me 262 which went into an even steeper dive. The Me 262 was seen crashing into the ground and exploding. The Me 262 chased by Mast and Myers was Lützow's and had been flying furthest to the south". One sentence seems to speculate, and the other seems to state the conclusion categorically.
 * Good point, reworded 2nd sentence to reflect the fact that this was one possible outcome. MisterBee1966 (talk) 10:29, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I am happy that this meets the A-class criteria, so I've added my support. Good work. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 11:14, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Image review
 * File:Legion-Condor-Badge-2nd-Squadron-Fighter-Group-88.jpg: for completeness, should include a copyright tag for the original design as well
 * Can you assist? Not sure how you want this done MisterBee1966 (talk) 10:35, 17 January 2016 (UTC)


 * File:Operation_Barbarossa_corrected_border.png: don't think this is sufficiently changed to warrant a new copyright from the original
 * added PD-USGov-Military-Air Force to file on commons MisterBee1966 (talk) 10:34, 17 January 2016 (UTC)


 * File:Messerschmitt_Me_262A_at_the_National_Museum_of_the_USAF.jpg: source link is dead. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:31, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I am not sure what exactly the ask is. Do I just remove the link? Sorry for asking MisterBee1966 (talk) 15:48, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
 * No worries - if possible, you should replace the link with an updated one. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:55, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
 * done, there is another link to a high res version. Please let me know if this is okay now. MisterBee1966 (talk) 10:42, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Comments: As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. Recently, I've been doing the same things at A-class that I've been doing at Peer Review, and not supporting or opposing. I've copyedited down to Spanish Civil War and skimmed the rest, and I don't think prose issues will be a problem at A-class. - Dank (push to talk) 23:23, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Support I reviewed this article for GA, and with the above mentioned improvements I consider it meets all the A-Class criteria. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 00:56, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Support Comments Having closely looked at this, I have only picked up a few minor nitpicks:
 * Lead- "Apart from 5...": that numeral should be text as per MOS regarding numbers. I see text is used elsewhere for 5.
 * done MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:01, 11 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Spanish Civil War- "...Lützow, now an Oberleutnant...": shouldn't the Oberleutnant be linked?
 * done MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:01, 11 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Luftwaffe commander- "...for day and night fighter...": inconsistent presentation here, in the lead you present this as day- and night-fighter (use of dashes).
 * done MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:01, 11 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Dismissal and death- "under attack by 4 Me 262s": the numeral should be presented as text.
 * done MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:01, 11 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Aerial Victory Credits: "He claimed 5 victories...": as above.
 * done MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:01, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I also fixed a couple of minor typos. Otherwise, this looks in good shape for A-class. Zawed (talk) 10:42, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the review. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:01, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
 * you are welcome, have added my support. Cheers. Zawed (talk) 10:39, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Comments: Commenting on the lead:
 * Overall, suggest condensing lead into shorter paragraphs and reducing links there per WP:OVERLINKING, to improve readability. For example, this linking appears to be unnecessary: exiled | exiled.
 * done MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:29, 12 April 2016 (UTC)


 * covert military-training organization covert military-training organization : This link does not seem to be correct; the school was itself covert; there were no "covert operations" being performed, as I understand the nature of these schools.
 * acknowledge, it is how the article Deutsche Verkehrsfliegerschule defines itself. What alternative do you suggest?


 * Jagdgruppe 88 | Jagdgruppe 88 : These appear to be unnecessary italics. Please see Jagdgruppe 88; no italics are being used. Same is the case with Jagdverband 44 and Reichswehr: italics are not being used on the linked articles.
 * Please allow me to make some generic feedback to your comments. The style and layout of this article includes the feedback I received during the course of over 9 years of editing on Wikipedia. In particular I was advised that German military units, awards and ranks generally are not loanwords and as such need to be put in italics. In addition to that, I was advised to keep style within the article consistent although alternatives may be available. The consequence of this guidance is that I chose this particular style and layout, I think a level of freedom that the main editor of an article should have. MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:29, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree with the approach MB has used, this approach is common among experienced editors working with German WWII subjects. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 13:37, 12 April 2016 (UTC)


 * General der Infanterie (General of the Infantry) | General der Infanterie (General of the Infantry) : this appears to be an unneeded translation, since the article being linked to has an English-language name.
 * see previous comment MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:29, 12 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Same is the case here: Reichsluftfahrtministerium (RLM—Ministry of Aviation) | Reichsluftfahrtministerium (RLM—Ministry of Aviation) and General der Jagdflieger (General of Fighters) | General der Jagdflieger (General of Fighters) . The linked article in the latter case is Inspector of Fighters.
 * see previous comment MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:29, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I suggest the article should be looked at with this in mind, as using the English article's titles would reduce the length of copy and minimize the use of foreign-language terms and italics, improving readability. Plus some condensing would make the lead easier to take in.


 * For example, this sentence in the lead
 * "In 1937, he volunteered for service with the Condor Legion during the Spanish Civil War where he was appointed Staffelkapitän (squadron leader) of 2. Staffel (2nd squadron) of Jagdgruppe 88 (J/88—88th Fighter Group)."
 * could be possibly simplified as follows:
 * In 1937, he volunteered for service with the Condor Legion during the Spanish Civil War, where he was appointed a squadron leader in the Jagdgruppe 88 (J/88—88th Fighter Group).
 * The details of his position can be appropriately discussed in the body of the article.

K.e.coffman (talk) 00:02, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
 * All comments addressed MisterBee1966 (talk) 04:55, 17 April 2016 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.