Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/George Juskalian


 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

No consensus to promote at this time Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:01, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

George Juskalian

 * Nominator(s): Proudbolsahye (talk)

I am nominating this article for A-Class review because it is currently at GA. I want to hear a further assessment from WikiProject Military History before nominated it to FA. Proudbolsahye (talk) 22:21, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Comments, leaning oppose This is a very detailed article, but I have some concerns about the relevance and factual accuracy of some material, as well as the reliability of the some of the main sources:
 * "George Juskalian was also the cousin of famed Medal of Honor recipient" - I would have thought that all MoH recipients are "famed"?
 * "he was instrumental in the building of a national park" - what does this mean? Did he lead the team who set up the park? (which seems unlikely for such a young person)
 * "He volunteered for active service for the United States Army in 1939." - needs a source
 * "George Juskalian was given the rank as first lieutenant" - wouldn't this have been his prior rank? (earned through ROTC)
 * "with a salary of $120 a month" - is this relevant?
 * "The division became famous for conducting the Carolina Maneuvers which was a preparatory exercise for the World War II effort" - what's the relevance of this? The 1st Division was already famous for its role in WW1.
 * "Theodore Roosevelt Jr., Teddy Roosevelt's oldest son, became commander of Juskalian's 26th Infantry Regiment in 1941" - is this relevant? Roosevelt was many levels above that of a mere company commander
 * "The soldiers of the 1st Infantry Division were among the first American troops shipped out for WWII" - somewhat dubious. There were already two full US Army divisions in Australia at this time, with the 1st Marine Division in combat on Guadalcanal.
 * "with Roosevelt as assistant 1st Infantry Division commander." - is this relevant?
 * "When landing in Oran on November 8, 1942, the American soldiers met resistance from the Afrika Korps under the command of Erwin Rommel as they began climbing Mount Jabal." - totally wrong: Oran was defended by Vichy French troops, and there were very few (no?) Germans in the country at the time
 * "With supporting fire from British battleships" - I don't think that British battleships provided fire support for this landing. I'd suggest that you consult a history of the landings at Oran.
 * "During the campaign, Juskalian distinguished himself in battle and earned the Silver Star." - what did he do to earn this prestigious medal?
 * "The POWs partaked in various activities such as organizing a theater group, orchestra, library, athletics, language school and etc." - what's the "and etc" referring to? This also makes the POW camp sound like a holiday camp, which doesn't seem appropriate - the POWs tended to be bored and underfed and made to do menial work
 * "The German Gestapo entered into the rooms" - did the Gestapo really operate in POW camps?
 * "Dwight D. Eisenhower, the General of the Army" - Ike was a General of the Army, but his job was the Chief of Staff of the Army
 * "His responsibilities included staffing the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Combined Chiefs of Staff" - "staffing" implies that he was a member of these committees, which obviously isn't what you mean. I'd suggest replacing this with "supporting" or similar
 * "First Battalion, 32nd Infantry Regiment, 7th Infantry Division" - some links are needed here (also, it's the 1st Battalion)
 * What's the relevance of the names of the company and regimental commanders in the paragraph which begins with "When the Korean War commenced"
 * What was Juskalian's role in the Battle of Pork Chop Hill, and does it really justify a section? It seems that he withdrew his battalion when ordered and that was that.
 * "As principal logistics officer, Juskalian supervised all the U.S. Army advisors to the Iranian Army's technical service department chiefs, all of whom were general officers." - colonels don't supervise generals
 * "Additionally, his office was responsible for preparing the annual program for the input of military material and construction from U.S. resources to the Iranian armed forces, a program which ran millions of dollars annually" - what's the relevance of the "millions of dollars"? Colonels typically command forces of about 3000 people and the budget for the unit or serve in equivalent roles, so this isn't that significant.
 * "Beatrice MacDougall, the widow of Lieutenant Jack W. Kirk" - can this woman be described in something other than the context of the man to whom she was previously married?
 * "Gregory, a son by his previous marriage with Beatrice MacDougall, lives in Stockbridge, Massachusetts with his wife Christian and family." - what's the relevance of this guy's living arrangements?
 * "letters of appreciation were sent from former Senator John Warner and Presidential candidate Bob Dole were read." - not good grammar
 * What establishes the following as reliable sources?:
 *  Triumph and Glory: Armenian World War II Heroes (appears to be from a small press)
 * "Recollections of a War Veteran". The Virginia Connection (local news website, with the article comprising mainly of the subject of the article's recollections)
 * "George Juskalian, in His Own Words". Centre View (as above) Nick-D (talk) 07:53, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Nick-D for a great review. I have fixed most of the issues you have raised above. I have removed much of the information you considered irrelevant and have made clarifications elsewhere. Here are justification and responses to some of the few other concerns that I have yet to have addressed. I also have my own questions I answers for before making any additional changes.


 * "This also makes the POW camp sound like a holiday camp, which doesn't seem appropriate" - Please see the official website of the Oflag 64 Association set up by former POWs of the Oflag 64. It states on the main page, "The “Kriegies” (short for Kriegsgefangenen: prisoners of war) made the best of their situation organizing sports events, musical and theatrical performances and escape plans."
 * "Theodore Roosevelt Jr., Teddy Roosevelt's oldest son, became commander of Juskalian's 26th Infantry Regiment in 1941" - Is the "Teddy Roosevelt's oldest son" part irrelevant to you? or the entire sentence? Just let me know, I'll delete or fix accordingly.

Now in terms of reliability of sources, my justifications are simple. Firstly, they don't make outrageous claims. They just provide additional details needed to establish a more comprehensive article. Also, the sources above which you have mentioned are readily verifiable and affirmed by other independent sources. Though these are recollections or offline books, I've yet to come across anything that claims anything contradictory or in the wrong. I can safely say that almost all of the claims can be affirmed through other sources. The above sources may just be giving a few more detail than others.

Some of these other sources that can be use to verify or reaffirm include:
 * Numerous Congressional Records (Other examples include this and this)
 * Peer-reviewed sources
 * Books published by a symposium of Armenian-American veterans (side note: Tashjian is a respectable editor/writer who is a regular contributor to peer-reviewed journals)
 * POW records
 * And others such as Church bulletins, obituaries and etc. Proudbolsahye (talk) 20:42, 29 June 2013 (UTC)


 * The nonsense about the 1st Infantry Division fighting Germans around Oran was preserved when the relevant sentence was re-written, adding material saying that "The POWs had the opportunity to partake in various activities" really makes it sound like they were in a holiday camp, which they weren't (and that website isn't a reliable source), and there's no way that Mr Juskalian was supervising officers who greatly out-ranked him in Iran. I'm not at all convinced that those sources meet Wikipedia's criteria for reliable sources: in particular, the article is heavily dependent on the recollections of Mr Juskalian in his old age. Nick-D (talk) 08:38, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * 1) I'll look into the Oran resistance. The source doesn't mention German resistance in particular and it may be the fault of my OR.
 * 2) The article doesn't say it was a holiday residence as assumed. It just said they partaked in various activities. Although I do believe the Oflag64 Association website is a reliable source, here are additional sources that talk about the various activities the POWs of the Oflag 64 conducted: (Movie about Oflag 64 per New York Times, "The men were allowed to have sports, music, and theater events, and had a camp newspaper.", Athletics and other activities were organised on a continuing basis in the camp to help occupy the prisoners' time., Oflag 64's first year of sports is a story of rags to riches. From the first pick-up softball game, played with a...etc. etc.
 * 3) He supervised Army advisors to the general officers of the Iranian Army, not the United States. Proudbolsahye (talk) 17:44, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I've just (inexhaustibly belatedly - sorry) revisited my comments, and I'm afraid that I'm going to maintain the oppose. While the article is much improved (nice work), I'm still concerned around the reliability of the sourcing here. Nick-D (talk) 11:19, 21 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Comments: G'day, I had a quick go at copy editing some of the article. Please check you are happy with my changes. To be honest, I think it might need a bit more work, but I will hold off to see how you go with Nick's concerns regarding sourcing. The only other suggestion I'd like to make at this moment is can you please add a ref to this: "Kevork found a job at the Iver Johnson Arms & Cycle Works in Worcester, Massachusetts. He was instrumental in the establishment of the Armenian Church of Our Savior on January 18, 1891." Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 01:12, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I did some more copy editing tonight, but there were a couple of points/things I will need clarification/help on:
 * I found this a bit awkward: "George Juskalian was also the cousin of Medal of Honor recipient of the U.S. Army, Ernest Dervishian." (The issue here is that the start of this paragraph is about Kevork, and then it ends with George with no real link. Can you please try to move this to a more appropriate paragraph, or reword it?) AustralianRupert (talk) 12:23, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Moved to personal life section. Proudbolsahye (talk) 20:42, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Looks good, thank you. AustralianRupert (talk) 10:49, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * When did this take place: "He left active service and intended to study law at the American University in Washington, DC"? It seems like it might be out of sequence with the sentence about working with the FBI.AustralianRupert (talk) 12:23, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The sentence is in line with his life. He wanted to go to Law School but his father died in 1938. Naturally, it should be around 1937-38 that he planned on going but unfortunately there's no mention in sources when he planned on going to Law School. Personally, I don't think it is important because he never actually went. Also, a date is provided in the next sentence which gives a proper approximation as to when he planned to go to law school.Proudbolsahye (talk) 20:42, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * My concern is that at the moment the chronology is uncertain. At one moment he is in the FBI investigating Dillger, and then in the next paragraph it says "He left active service..." To me, active service means the military, so did he leave the FBI and go back to the Army or do you mean he left the FBI? If not, when did he leave the FBI? Did his father die before or after he joined the FBI? One option might be to move the sentence so that it comes after the sentence discussing the national park, if that is where it came. Thus, it might then read: "where he helped build a national park. After leaving active service, Juskalian had intended to study law at the American University in Washington, D.C., but when his father died in 1938, he gave up this plan and returned to Fitchburg to reunite with his mother and assist his brother-in-law's dry-cleaning business. That year, after passing a government exam, Juskalian became a fingerprint classifier for the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), and took part in the in search for John Dillinger, who was on the "Top 10 Most Wanted" list. He then volunteered for active service in 1939." (Also when he volunteered for active service in 1939, do we know where he was posted?) AustralianRupert (talk) 10:49, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Fixed according to your proposal. Paragraph looks fine now. He was posted at Fort Devens.
 * I think there are too many headings used in the article. For instance some of the low level headings in the "German Prisoner of War" section are probably redundant. Please try to reduce these.AustralianRupert (talk) 12:23, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, his POW life is very significant and long to say the least. I was debating whether I should remove them, but it will make the whole section utterly long and confusing. I chose to divide up the paragraphs just so the reader won't get lost and can pin point when, where, and which camps he went to just by looking at the section headers. Proudbolsahye (talk) 20:42, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Understood, but I think you need to work to reduce this somehow (I note that it was also an issue for the FAC reviewer). A single heading "Prisoner of War" is probably all you need in my opinion. One way might be by reducing the level of detail in this area by reducing the use of block quotes. For instance, the secton on Oflag XIII B, is really just repetition (as you have pretty much said all of that in your own words previously): "Juskalian would later describe: "They arrived the end of March, and the German guards fled, but there weren't enough trucks to take us all out there. German infantry soldiers were all around and my buddy Pete and I were recaptured, we were tired and depressed but thankful to be alive." AustralianRupert (talk) 10:49, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Reduced category headers. Removed "Capture" and "Liberated as POW" headers. Come to think of it, I'm glad you mentioned this. The "Captured" and "Liberated as POW" looks pretty unprofessional. Also, I reduced that long quote that was repetitive of information already mentioned. I have now reduced it to "Juskalian later remarked: "We were tired and depressed but thankful to be alive.""
 * "Juskalian received orders from Colonel Kern to withdraw his forces". Kern's role probably needs to be described here. For instance, was he the regimental commander? AustralianRupert (talk) 12:23, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Yes he was a regimental commander. Proudbolsahye (talk) 20:42, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Great, thanks. AustralianRupert (talk) 10:49, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I will come back tomorrow night and continue the review. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 12:23, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Fixed some of the issues. The other issues I might want you to hear what I have to say about them. Otherwise, thank you. Looking forward to hearing your next questions and concerns. Proudbolsahye (talk) 20:42, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "The other issues I might want you to hear what I have to say about them": sure, please let me know what you think. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 10:49, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Let alone the fact that almost everything used in that source reflects the information provided in peer-reviewed journals and United States Congressional Records, the source actually does a good job of paraphrasing his accounts and overall achievements. In fact, in the source, most of his recollections are paraphrased. Might I add, the source doesn't make bold claims, it merely provides added detail to various facts which, as mentioned above, appear it various other sources as well. Proudbolsahye (talk) 22:27, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay I made the necessary edits. These edits were very productive. Looking forward to your remarks/questions. Proudbolsahye (talk) 02:35, 24 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I took another run through tonight and did some more copy editing. I think I'm pretty much done now, except for the following questions:
 * "Juskalian married Beatrice MacDougall, the widow of Lieutenant Jack W. Kirk, one of Juskalian's first company commanders" --> do we know when they married? AustralianRupert (talk) 12:37, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * According to this snippet view, it is 31 August 1951. I know it's a snippet view but I think we should be okay.
 * Yes, that looks fine. Thanks. AustralianRupert (talk) 09:40, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "After his marriage, Juskalian and his wife" --> which marriage was this, the first or the second? AustralianRupert (talk) 12:37, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Second marriage.
 * Okay, your changes look good, I'll be happy to support so long as Nick is happy you've addressed his concerns. I think we've dealt with a few through the copy editing process, but there might be a couple remaining. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 09:40, 26 July 2013 (UTC)


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 * repetitive language in the lead: "After Korea, he became an advisor to the Imperial Iranian Army in Tehran (1957–1958). During the Vietnam War he became a military advisor..." ("he became" x 2). Perhaps reword one?
 * "arriving in Ellis Island on November 15, 1887....", consider instead: "arriving at Ellis Island on November 15, 1887..."
 * "Juskalian was called to active duty at Fort Devens, Massachusetts and was promoted to the rank as first lieutenant in November 1940." Why? (part of the US military build up due to the war in Europe one assumes but adding something on this would provide context to the reader).
 * "Juskalian later learned, while still a POW...", abbrev POW needs formal introduction here (abbreviations introduced in the lead are treated separately)
 * "... shared food rations..." → consider more simply "... shared rations..."
 * "... The tunnel already was some 80 to 100 feet long...." consider instead "... The tunnel was already some 80 to 100 feet long..."
 * This sentence needs some work: "The tins were also used to create a pipe for fresh air to funnel through the tunnel with the assistance of a hand-cranked fan at the beginning of the tunnel." The funnel and tunnel construction sounds bad to my ear, can it be reworded? Also consider changing "at the beginning of the tunnel" to "at its entrance" or something like that.
 * The paragraph beginning: "Before the tunnel had been completed, the American POWs" is fairly repetitive using the construction "American POWs" or "the two American POWs", can it be reworded?
 * "On August 31, 1951, Juskalian married Beatrice MacDougall, the widow of Lieutenant Jack W. Kirk, one of Juskalian's first company commanders...", consider more simply: "On August 31, 1951, Juskalian married Beatrice MacDougall, the widow of Lieutenant Jack W. Kirk, one of his first company commanders." Anotherclown (talk) 22:36, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the review. Im out of town as of now. It will be hard to go over these concerns. However, as far as I can see, user Yerevanci has taken charge on some of the stuff. Proudbolsahye (talk) 09:10, 12 August 2013 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it.  No further edits should be made to this discussion.