Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/HMS Ramillies (07)

Article promoted by Zawed (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 10:20, 6 June 2019 (UTC) &laquo; Return to A-Class review list

HMS Ramillies (07)
Instructions for nominators and reviewers
 * Nominator(s): and Parsecboy (talk)

Ramillies was completed after the Battle of Jutland and only played a minor role in World War I. She supported Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War and during the Greco-Turkish War from 1919–1922. After the Italians joined the war, she escorted convoys to Malta and supported the raid on Taranto that crippled the Italian battlefleet. Ramillies was transferred to the Indian Ocean a few months before the Japanese joined the war. During the invasion of Madagascar in 1942 she was torpedoed by a Japanese midget submarine. In 1944 the ship bombarded German positions during the landings in Normandy and in the South of France. She was placed in reserve in early 1945 and scrapped in 1945. Parsecboy and I have thoroughly overhauled the article and we believe that it meets the A-class criteria. We'd like reviewers to look for any bits of AmEnglish that might be found as well as any unlinked or unexplained jargon.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:55, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Support from PM
I thoroughly reviewed this article at GAN last month, and consider it meets the A-Class criteria. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:59, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Comments from AustralianRupert
Support: G'day, gentlemen, looks pretty good to me. I have the following comments/suggestions: AustralianRupert (talk) 10:36, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * in the infobox, 4 Shafts; 4 steam turbine --> "4 shafts; 4 steam turbines"
 * Fixed
 * during the First World War in the mid-1910s: are both date references necessary here? Maybe just "during the First World War", or given that some were laid down before the war, maybe just "during the mid-1910s"?
 * Good point
 * colors --> "colours"
 * Fixed
 * landing party of 50 Royal Marines that...: remove the link to Royal Marines here as it has been linked earlier
 * Done
 * After the Battle of Jutland: link Battle of Jutland?
 * Done
 * AA machinegunss: typo
 * Good catch
 * inconsistent: "launched on 12 September 1916" (body) v "Launched: 12 June 1916" (infobox)
 * Corrected the box
 * On 5 October, Ramillies was ordered: as it is a new section, it probably doesn't hurt to add the year here
 * Works for me
 * returned to Devonport for a refit[21], suggest moving the citation outside the comma here
 * Good catch. Thanks AR. Parsecboy (talk) 15:58, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * This one is progressing well, . Can you indicate support or otherwise? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:41, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Changes look good. I've added my support now. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 01:07, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:45, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks Nikki. Parsecboy (talk) 15:58, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Comments Support by CPA-5
That's anything from me. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 13:08, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * speed of 23 knots (42.6 km/h; 26.5 mph) both km/h and mph shouldn't be linked.
 * Fixed
 * as well as ten 20 mm Oerlikon guns I'm not a specialist in cannon and weaponry but shouldn't guns be cannon?
 * Yes indeed
 * Ramillies and Revenge were sent to Georgia to monitor Suggest to replace the country Georgia's link with the Democratic Republic of Georgia's link.
 * Good idea
 * Turkish Nationalist forces advancing on Ismid Shouldn't it be Izmid?
 * Ismid is one of the accepted Latinizations
 * visited the ship on 16 August in Hvalfjörður, Iceland Unlink Iceland.
 * Done
 * which was to be based in Colombo, Ceylon Replace link of Ceylon with British Ceylon.
 * Done
 * Vice Admiral Chūichi Nagumo's powerful Kido Butai American Vice Admiral.
 * Fixed
 * force for the invasion of Madagascar (Operation Ironclad) Link Madagascar with the article French Madagascar.
 * Good idea
 * on the northern end of Madagascar in the dark Unlink Madagascar.
 * Done
 * outside the Imperial War Museum in London Unlink London.
 * Done
 * Thanks CPA Parsecboy (talk) 16:03, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * No worries soldier another support for another ship. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 18:26, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

Comments & support by Pendright
or Your nominating statement said, in part, “We'd like reviewers to look for any bits of AmEnglish that might be found” ... I take this to mean, where found or possible, minimize Amarican English and maximize British English. Am I in the ballpark? Pendright (talk) 01:05, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 01:14, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
 * and hey gentlemen just a small reminder here that the comments by Pendright are here almost two weeks. Could someone please address them? Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 08:25, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Lead:
 * The ships were developments of the Queen Elizabeth-class battleships, with reductions in size and speed to offset increases in armour protection whilst retaining the same main battery of eight 15-inch (381 mm) guns.
 * Consider "the" before developments and change develpments to "development"?
 * Second thoughts: I wonder if development(s) is the right word here - as I read it again, the ships resembled or were similar to the Queen Elisabeth-class battleships?
 * They didn't much resemble the QEs because they only had one funnel, although the layout of the turrets was the same. I could go with "developed from", although I think that the current language is better.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:09, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * <> Okay - Pendright (talk) 05:56, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Conider inserting "the" btween in & armour
 * https://learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/english-grammar/definite-article
 * Considder insertng "their" between in and size.
 * I don't think so.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:09, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * <> Okay - Pendright (talk) 05:56, 30 May 2019 (UTC)


 * ...the ship went to Turkey twice in response to crises arising from the Greco-Turkish War, ...
 * Consider adding "the" before the word crises.
 * <> Overlooked - Pendright (talk) 05:56, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * "the" implies that there were only the two crises arising from the Greco-Turkish War to which the ship reacted.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:19, 30 May 2019 (UTC)


 * In May 1940, she was transferred to the Mediterranean Fleet as war with Italy loomed.
 * Consider "a" before war.

https://learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/english-grammar/indefinite-article-and
 * <> Overlooked - Pendright (talk) 05:56, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * "a" weakens this phrasing which is quite common when describing the period immediately before a war starts.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:19, 30 May 2019 (UTC)


 * In 1944, she was updated for coastal bombardment duties, which she performed later that year ...
 * In practice, I've yet to see a user of British English place a comma before the word which as American English requires. The rules do differ, but I’m unsure of the application so 'll leave the call to you. However, wherever I find American English used in this regard – I’ll bring it to your attention.
 * Not exactly sure what you're referring to here, but I've reworked the beginning of the sentence.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:09, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * He means the comma before "which" - I checked British subject and British logistics in the Normandy Campaign ( bothcurrently at FAC) and they use commas before "which", for what that's worth. Parsecboy (talk) 16:42, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * <> Good enough - Pendright (talk) 05:56, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

Design and description:
 * During the early 1920s a Fairey Flycatcher fighter was deployed from that same platform.
 * Consider a comma after the 1920s
 * The University of Bristol (on Google) points out that the introductory phrase or element sets the stage for the main part of the sentence.
 * It does, but it's not required. My rule of thumb is a comma after six words for a introductory clause.
 * <> I understood that you wanted a British English slant, in which case the University of Bristol says it's three words or more.
 * A quick, random check of the article shows several situations where you are at odds with your rule of thumb. Closed - Pendright (talk) 05:56, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

Major alterations:
 * A pair of octuple mounts for 2-pounder (40 mm (1.6 in)) Mk VIII "pom-pom"s were added on platforms abreast the funnel and directors for them were fitted on the foremast.
 * "pom-pom"s?
 * Nickname of the weapon, commonly found in British accounts
 * <> The issue is the placement of one of the quotation marks. Pendright (talk) 05:56, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Ah, there were single and multiple-barrel versions of the same weapon, both with the same nickname, so I figure that the quotation marks go before the plural "s". But I could easily be wrong.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:19, 30 May 2019 (UTC)


 * In April of that year 10 more Oerlikons were added and an additional three in 1944–1945.
 * Consider a comma after year
 * <> Okay - Pendright (talk) 05:56, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

Construction and the First World War:
 * ... shipyard in Dalmuir, Scotland on ...
 * Consider a comma after Scotland.
 * Oops.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:09, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Interwar years:
 * On 16 March 1920, Ramillies, and her sisters Revenge, Royal Oak, and Royal Sovereign landed parties of Royal Marines and sailors ...
 * Consider this: On 16 March 1920, Ramillies and her sisters, Revenge, Royal Oak, and Royal Sovereign, landed parties of Royal Marines and sailors ...
 * If I were to keep the comma after Ramillies, then I agree that I'd need a comma after Sovereign, but I think that the sentence reads better without most of those commas--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:09, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * <> Agree - Pendright (talk) 05:56, 30 May 2019 (UTC)


 * She decommissioned for an extensive refit at Devonport in September 1926, which concluded on 1 March 1927, when she recommissioned for service.
 * Comma before which?
 * Umm, already there.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:09, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * <> A reminder - 05:56, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * OK.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:19, 30 May 2019 (UTC)


 * The German ship never entered the Indian Ocean, however, and so Ramillies was transferred back to the Mediterranean Fleet in May 1940 ...
 * The German ship shoud be "A" German Ship
 * No, it's referring to Admiral Graf Spee.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:09, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * <> I Stand corrected. However, the Admiral Graf Spee reference is back in the previous paragraph. For clarity, maybe it should replace "The German ship". Pendright (talk) 05:56, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Deleting however & and should make it a clearer sentence.
 * Agreed.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:09, 28 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Ramillies was unsuccessfully attacked by the Italian submarine Pier Capponi as she approached Grand Harbour.[47] and then escorted the aircraft carrier Illustrious
 * ... Grand Harbour.[47] and then escorted the?
 * Good catch.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:09, 28 May 2019 (UTC)


 * She continued convoy operations in the North Atlantic through August, and during this period, she escorted Convoy HX 106, which encountered the German fast battleships
 * Comma before which?
 * Already there.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:09, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * <> A reminder - Pendright (talk) 05:56, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Why the comma after period?
 * I'm not sure if it's really needed or not, so I want my co-nom to take a look and offer his opinion.
 * <> Not addressed - Pendright (talk) 05:56, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Fixed.


 * In October 1941, the Admiralty decided the ship was to be transferred to the 3rd Battle Squadron, which was to be based in ...
 * Comma before which?
 * This does seem to be a persistent issue, doesn't it?--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:09, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * <> A reminder - Pendright (talk) 05:56, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Fixed.


 * He therefore divided his fleet into two groups: Force A, which consisted of the ...
 * Comma before which?
 * <> a reminder - Pendright (talk) 05:56, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Done.


 * ... Somerville received a report that the Japanese fleet was approaching Colombo, which they attacked
 * Comma before which?
 * <> A reminder - Pendright (talk) 05:56, 30 May 2019 (UTC)


 * ... "although the vessel is now 26 years old and felt by most to be of little value owing to reduced size and slow speeds, the Ramillies is in exceptionally good shape, and I should wonder whether or not the capital ships of today with their lighter scantlings would survive a blow as well as this old girl, some 26 years after they were built."
 * ... they were buit?
 * Looks OK to me.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:09, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Also, it's a quote, so there's nothing we can do to it ;) Parsecboy (talk) 16:42, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * <> Per the MOS: Quotations must be verifiably attributed, and the wording of the quoted text should be faithfully reproduced. This is referred to as the principle of minimal change. Where there is good reason to change the wording, enclose changes within square brackets (for example replacing pronouns with nouns that aren't identified in the quote: "Ocyrhoe told [her father] his fate" instead of "Ocyrhoe told him his fate"). If there is a significant error in the original statement, use [sic] or the template [sic] (produces a note like [sic] ) to show that the error was not made by Wikipedia. However, trivial spelling and typographic errors should simply be corrected without comment (for example, correct basicly to basically and harasssment to harassment), unless the slip is contextually important. Pendright (talk) 06:30, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm confused. The only thing that I see in wrong in your comment here is "buit", but the article has always said "built"--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:19, 30 May 2019 (UTC)


 * She joined three American battleships and the reactivated Lorraine, which had since joined the Free French Naval Forces.
 * Comma before which
 * <> A reminder Pendright (talk) 05:56, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

Done - Pendright (talk) 20:58, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Now I think that were done as I think that I've gotten rid of those commas before which.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:19, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * All done, and thanks for the thorough review, though I wish to summon to get his comments.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:09, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

or Thank you both for your responses, but there are still a few items that need your attention - all clearly marked. Pendright (talk) 06:30, 30 May 2019 (UTC) All comments addressed - supporting - Pendright (talk) 23:17, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

Source review - Pass
The sources used all seem to be of high quality. I have not carried out spot checks. I consider the sources to be current. Everything that I would expect to be cited, is.
 * The two Smiths are in the wrong order.
 * Fixed
 * A genuine question: is there a reason for the mix of 10 and 13 digit ISBNs? The first two 10 digit works I checked had 13 digit versions available.
 * No - I've converted them
 * "Fighting the Great War at Sea: Strategy, Tactic and Technology" "Tactic" -> 'Tactics'.
 * Fixed


 * Gog the Mild (talk) 21:52, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks Gog. Parsecboy (talk) 10:11, 1 June 2019 (UTC)