Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Herbert Ernest Hart


 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted Hawkeye7 (talk) 07:00, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Herbert Ernest Hart

 * Nominator(s): Zawed (talk)

I am nominating this article for A-Class review because I believe it meets the criteria for ACR. The article has just gone through a GA review, and since then has had a little extra information added. The subject of the article was probably one of NZ's best territorial soldiers to survive WWI. He had an interesting postwar career as well. Zawed (talk) 09:54, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
 * ImagesThe image licencing needs tweaking. I imagine the CC-BY-SA component is in respest of your uploading the file, but if I'm correct to say the file is taken directly from the Internet, then uploading it here will be insufficient to generate a new coipyright, even in countries that follow the "sweat of the brow" doctrine.
 * Secondly, and arguably more importantly, the files do not have a valid US copyright tag. You must demonstrate that either the works were in the Public Domain on New Zealand's URAA tag date (normally 1 January 1996). This may well require establishing which of the limbs of the existing tag the photograph falls under, i.e. exactly why it is PD in NZ, and then ensuring that if we had been having this conversation on the URAA date that tag would have been appropriate.
 * If the file was published before 1923, then that would be a valid tag. If not, and I'm right to suspect that when the tag says "1 January 1963" it means "fifty years ago (start of that year)", then 1917 (etc) + 50 will mean the files entered the public domain in NZ in 1967, well before the URAA date. That would mean using the "PD-1996" tag. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 12:40, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Just when I think I'm getting to grips with Wikipedia's images and copyright requirements, along comes a spanner in the works :)... To clarify the CC licence, its use is not related to my claiming any sort of rights to the upload, which I think is your concern. The licence is provided by the source website for the items (which asks for a credit and I forgot to do provide it in the description for the first image and have now added). This is not withstanding the fact that I believe all of the images are PD anyway as they fall under either the A, B or D criteria of the NZ PD tag, hence the reason I have used the tag.  From your comments, I think that the appropriate tag, in addition to those already used, is PD-US-1996? I have seen it used elsewhere. Unless you advise to the contrary in the next few days, I will add that tag to each of the images.  Let me know if it is not appropriate.  Thanks for taking the time to provide your feedback; I will eventually figure this stuff out! Zawed (talk) 09:08, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * And done (the ones that hadn't already been done - thanks AR). Zawed (talk) 11:10, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
 * No worries. AustralianRupert (talk) 11:46, 22 January 2013 (UTC)


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 * "and the grandson of John Hart, a three time Premier of South Australia." I think it should be "three-time" as its an adjective (grammer is not my strongest area though).
 * Done. Zawed (talk) 09:29, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Australian 4th Brigade should be wikilinked.
 * Done. Zawed (talk) 09:29, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Missing word here I think: "Hart was wounded in the thigh while supervising establishment of defensive positions."
 * Fixed. Zawed (talk) 09:29, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * "12 day period" should be "12-day period".
 * Done. Zawed (talk) 09:29, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * "Hart organised a counter-raid to be conducted by his battalion, and this was successfully executed." When?
 * Clarified. Zawed (talk) 09:29, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * "During the battle, Hart's headquarters was shelled with mustard gas...", suggest: "During the battle, Hart's headquarters was again shelled with mustard gas..."
 * Done. Zawed (talk) 09:29, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * "Hart led the brigade into Germany for occupation duties with the remainder of the New Zealand Division." It might pay to clarify that that the armistice had been signed at that point.
 * Done. Zawed (talk) 09:29, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * "Hart received his orders in mid February to return to New Zealand, leaving England on 12 March 1919." Consider instead: "In mid-February Hart received his orders to return to New Zealand, leaving England on 12 March 1919."
 * Done. Zawed (talk) 09:29, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * "...with the appointment as a Companion of the Order of the Bath...", should be "...with his appointment as a Companion of the Order of the Bath..."
 * Done. Zawed (talk) 09:29, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * "The French government also awarded him with a Croix de guerre...", should be "The French government also awarded him the Croix de guerre."
 * Done. Zawed (talk) 09:29, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * This is repetitive: "Upon discharge from the NZEF, Hart resumed his legal work in his Carterton practice." Consider instead: "Upon discharge from the NZEF, Hart resumed legal work in his Carterton practice."
 * Done. Zawed (talk) 09:29, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * This seems awkward to me: "after an initial spell on the reserve of officers...", specifically "on the"
 * Fixed. Zawed (talk) 09:29, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * "This was a difficult period of time for the colony...", consider instead: "This was a difficult period for the colony..."
 * Done. Zawed (talk) 09:29, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Missing word here: "and employed tactics of civil disobedience as means...", should be "as a means".
 * Done. Zawed (talk) 09:29, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * "...was usually the preserve of an Australian and New Zealander...", should it be "...was usually the preserve of an Australian or a New Zealander..."?
 * Yes, should be 'or'. Fixed. Zawed (talk) 09:29, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Not sure about the need for quotation marks here: "Although the position, 'Deputy Controller of the Eastern District', was nominally based in...". Probably could also be reworded. Consider instead: "Although the position of Deputy Controller of the Eastern District was nominally based in..."
 * In addition to making the suggested change, I have rephrased this section. Zawed (talk) 09:29, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * "This required the creation of an organisation to be responsible for the graves of Allied personnel...", consider instead: "This required the creation of an organisation responsible for the graves of Allied personnel..."
 * Done. Anotherclown, thanks for the review. I have addressed the issues specifically noted above, but let me know if anything else requires work.  Cheers. Zawed (talk) 09:29, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Gday this is looking good to me, just a couple of other points:
 * "...but traveled to England instead of returning to New Zealand with the rest of the contingent". Do we know why?
 * Sources suggest, but not explicitly state, that it was for travel/holiday. Zawed (talk) 08:37, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * No worries, obviously best not to speculate so if its not available in the sources its not an issue. Anotherclown (talk) 10:35, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * "However, rather than pursue bookkeeping as a career, he commenced legal studies." Do we know where (e.g. what university / institution)?
 * Surprisingly we don't. My main source says that he biked to Masterton (no university there I can tell you) twice a week for the legal studies but that's it. Zawed (talk) 08:37, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Not a problem then. Anotherclown (talk) 10:35, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * This is a little abrupt to me: "Hart immediately volunteered for the New Zealand Expeditionary Force (NZEF) which was being raised for service in the war on Britain's behalf." Perhaps consider: "Following the outbreak of the First World War Hart immediately volunteered for the New Zealand Expeditionary Force (NZEF) which was being raised for service in the war on Britain's behalf." (suggestion only)
 * Done. Zawed (talk) 08:37, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * "He was also required to divest a number of his more experienced officers and non-commissioned officers to help with the formation of a new 2nd Battalion of the Wellington Regiment. His battalion was re-designated as 1st Battalion, Wellington Regiment...", consider instead: "He was also required to divest a number of his more experienced officers and non-commissioned officers to help with the formation of the 2nd Battalion of the Wellington Regiment. His battalion was subsequently re-designated as the 1st Battalion, Wellington Regiment..." (suggestion only)
 * Done. Zawed (talk) 08:37, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Problem with sentence structure/punctuation here: "Hart led his battalion during the Battle of Flers-Courcelette and the subsequent period in the trenches.[15] and was mentioned in dispatches for his work during this time."
 * Fixed. Zawed (talk) 08:37, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * "Hart was made commander of 2nd Infantry Brigade when 4th Brigade was disbanded in February 1918..." probably should be: "Hart was made commander of the 2nd Infantry Brigade when the 4th Brigade was disbanded in February 1918."
 * Done. Zawed (talk) 08:37, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * This is a little repetitive: "Hart's new role involved overseeing the upkeep of the cemeteries and memorials established by the Commission in the Middle East, Turkey and Greece. Ensuring the upkeep...", specifically "upkeep" twice. As a sugesstion consider: "Hart's new role involved overseeing the upkeep of the cemeteries and memorials established by the Commission in the Middle East, Turkey and Greece. Ensuring the maintenance..."
 * Done. Zawed (talk) 08:37, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * In the references section terms such as "Limited" should be omitted from the publisher's field. For instance: "Crawford, John, ed. (2008). The Devil's Own War: The First World War Diary of Brigadier-General Herbert Hart. Auckland, New Zealand: Exisle Publishing Limited. ISBN 978-1-877437-30-4." should be just be "Exisle Publishing" (see Template:Cite_book). Anotherclown (talk) 23:41, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Have sorted this for all titles with Limited in the publisher's field. Zawed (talk) 08:37, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * All my points have been addressed, so adding my support now. Good work for what its worth. Anotherclown (talk) 10:35, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks again for the review. Zawed (talk) 11:10, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Support Comments: some suggestions:
 * the redlink for "VD": should/could this link to Volunteer Decoration?
 * My source is very specific about it being the Colonial Auxiliary Forces Officer's Decoration although I do suspect that it is actually the same as the Volunteer Decoration due to the use of the same postnominal. But without knowing for sure I'm a little reluctant to link to the VD. Zawed (talk) 09:36, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * G'day, a quick update on this. I did a bit of research into this and I now believe that the Colonial Auxilliary Forces Officer's Decoration replaced the Volunteer Decoration, but used the same post nominals, so essentially you are right not to link to it. Apologies for the bad advice. It would be good to get an article on the award one day. I might do it when I get back from my six week "holiday". Anyway, good work on this article. AustralianRupert (talk) 23:18, 21 February 2013 (UTC)


 * is it "traveled" or "travelled" in NZ English?
 * Only the finest English to be used here...have changed to BE - i.e. travelled. I actually didn't know this was spelled two different ways until a GA review last week. Zawed (talk) 09:36, 23 January 2013 (UTC)


 * "In speeches that he made during his community and RSA duties" --> I don't think the abbreviation has been introduced;
 * Have expanded the postwar career section to clarify this. Zawed (talk) 09:36, 23 January 2013 (UTC)


 * "a small community near Carterton in the Wairarapa" --> "a small community near Carterton in the Wairarapa region"?
 * Tweaked as per suggestion. Zawed (talk) 09:36, 23 January 2013 (UTC)


 * "and would eventually become a director of the company" --> "and eventually became a director of the company";
 * Done. Zawed (talk) 09:36, 23 January 2013 (UTC)


 * 'The Apex' --> "The Apex" (I believe that the MOS prefers double quotes);
 * Done. Zawed (talk) 09:36, 23 January 2013 (UTC)


 * "Hart would lead the battalion back to Gallipoli in early November" --> "Hart led the battalion back to Gallipoli in early November";
 * Done. Zawed (talk) 09:36, 23 January 2013 (UTC)


 * "battalion would eventually evacuate the peninsula during December" --> "battalion eventually evacuated the peninsula during December"
 * Done. Zawed (talk) 09:36, 23 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I stopped at the Western Front section; I will come back tomorrow (sorry its late here). AustralianRupert (talk) 11:46, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the taking the time to review this article. I look forward to your further comments. Zawed (talk) 09:36, 23 January 2013 (UTC)


 * "the gold badge": is this a proper noun? If so, it should be in caps;
 * Have used caps. Zawed (talk) 11:58, 25 January 2013 (UTC)


 * in the Later life section, the first paragraph seems a little out of chronological order AustralianRupert (talk) 12:21, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Have reordered this section, moving some up into the first paragraph of the "Post-war career" section. Zawed (talk) 11:58, 25 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Tentative Support: I think the readers must be familiarized about the Gallipoli campaign. Also, can't be the Later life section be expanded because it was around three decades after his post-war career? Arius1998 (talk) 12:20, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Many thanks for the support. Regarding the later life section, this covers his life from the age of 61 until his death. There isn't much to expand on there. Zawed (talk) 11:11, 19 February 2013 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it.  No further edits should be made to this discussion.