Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Johann Mickl/archive1


 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:49, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Johann Mickl

 * Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (send... over)

I am nominating this article for A-Class review because I believe it meets the A-class criteria. It was significantly improved during its successful GA nomination, so that it now includes all major facts and details of Mickl's life and career, and it avoids going into unnecessary detail. An Austrian, Mickl served in both World Wars, and in every significant European theatre of WWII. He commanded three divisions in three theatres, and was awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves. He was killed in action in Yugoslavia in the dying days of WWII. Post-war, the Austrian Army named a barracks after him. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 13:18, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Apologies all, I have limited internet access at the moment and have to do some laborious (for me) translation of a source from German to English in order to finish addressing the comments made by MB and AR. Should be done by the end of next weekend if you don't mind leaving this open till then. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 09:58, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Support Comments Not Supported by MisterBee1966 (talk) 12:13, 19 October 2013 (UTC) I am not sure if I agree with the statement "it avoids going into unnecessary detail". I have read most of Mickl's biography "Bei den Gewehren [with the guns]" by now. Mickl's life gives us the opportunity to explain to the readers the political situation in Austria, Carinthia in particular, in and after World War I in much more detail. A good half of the book focusses on these episodes of his life. I will try to mention some of the elements below which I find missing right now. I will neither oppose nor approve the article at A-class as it currently stands. I had already flagged at the GA-review that this part of his life received undue representation in the article.


 * Severly wounded by a gunshot in the chest in his first battle on 28 July 1914, at the Zlota Lipa near Zloszow, east of Lemberg.
 * Operation Cukla, Mickl led the assault of the Austrian Gebrigsschützen-Regiment 1 on the Monte Rombon (2,208m) on 12 February 1916? One of the defenders was Benito Mussolini, then a member of the 11th Bersaglieriregiment. He received the Order of the Iron Crown 3rd Class for this feat.
 * On 3 June he led the assault on height 1363 of the Monte Cengio which earned him the Military Merit Medal for Bravery in Bronze.
 * I also think it is noteworthy that he had a twin brother who was killed in action near Lemberg in 1915.
 * I disagree about underrepresentation. His notability is entirely related to his command of divisions, and his Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves (all of which occurred in WWII). The detail about in what part of his body he was wounded in WWI and in what battles may be interesting, but the article currently contains all detail included in the Austrian and German Dictionaries of Biography as well as multiple other sources (some of which were provided by you, for which you have my thanks). There is a difference between including every single detail of the man's life contained in a biography, and including all the major facts and details of his life and career without going into unnecessary detail. We obviously differ on where that line is drawn, and I respect your view, but don't think it reflects the requirements of MILHIST A-class. I will leave it to others to decide whether these aspects are necessary or not. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:23, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't want to express unjust criticism over this article, it is nicely written. However, I find the A2 criteria rather vague, and that is why I am thankful that passing A-class requires more than one reviewers opinion. I am happy to provide more information and support you in bringing this article forward, but as it stands now, I am unsure if it meets the A2 criteria. I give you a few more examples. You start the second paragraph with "After the war ended", but nowhere do you mention what war was fought. Then you go on and state "unsuccessfully attempted to recapture the town of Radkersburg from forces of the Kingdom of Serbs". A reader has to assume that the statement "exact line of the new border was unclear" had put Radkersburg under control of the Serbs, or was subject to debate and that's why they fought over it. Why was he made an honorary citizen of his home town? Was this linked to these events in 1919? I also wonder if he had not fought in World War II, would his actions and awards received have merited a Wiki article of its own? MisterBee1966 (talk) 09:46, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I am certainly interested in any material you might have access to that would flesh out these parts of the article. I will attempt to address the issues you have raised. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 09:01, 22 October 2013 (UTC)


 * You wrote "In 1922, he changed his name to the more Germanised Mickl", according to Richter and Kobe page 87 they state that Austrian police were looking for Mikl because of illegal gun trafficking. Richter and Kobe argue that Mikl may have changed his name because of this. MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:21, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry? I oppose your nomination of a FLC that lacks citations for information you have already included in the list, and 30+ minutes after I oppose your FLC nomination, you oppose my nomination of an ACR on which all information is reliably sourced in both English and German? Apparently, because I haven't included all of the essentially minor detail you think should be included? This is not a popularity competition, it is about quality information, reliably sourced. What is the point in developing an article if you think it is ok to oppose another article because you don't get support on your own less than fulsomely referenced list that is nominated at a higher level? My edit summary was with regret, I cannot support this nomination, and yours, 30 minutes later was identical, with regret, I cannot support this nomination. I'm afraid you have well and truly lost me on this one, MB. Very poor form. I submit MB's comment can be completely disregarded as it is obviously a tit-for-tat for my comment on Featured list candidates/List of Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross recipients (C)/archive2, which is entirely justified on the facts, and which MB66 has completely failed to attempt to address. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 13:10, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Dear Peacemaker, my judgment on the article, has nothing to do with your opinion about my article. I did choose similar wording to underline my personal amusement of the situation, call it irony if you may. I was surprised to note that one of your first actions after a period of inactivity was to disapprove my nomination. Although I had sent you more material which enabled you to address my concerns about this particular article under review here. My questions offline to Wiki or on your talk-page regarding the material I had provided remained unanswered. I acknowledge that you have made a strong effort to expand the World War I section, which was also an area of concern to me. However my objection is exclusively based on the timeframe between the wars. Again, this assumes that you do not plan to address this timeframe. I am a bit puzzled that you, as a military history coordinator, give recommendations to other reviewers about how to treat my comments. MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:28, 12 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Do you mind me making a suggestion on revised "Between the wars" section. I want to propose a few additions which I feel may help the reader capture the context of the period a bit better? MisterBee1966 (talk) 17:19, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Go ahead. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 01:52, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

I think it could start like this: "The dual monarchy of Austria-Hungary was dissolved on 31 October 1918 at the end of World War I. Consequently many new nation states have emerged in the territory formerly belonging to the realm as nationalist movements had called for a greater degree of autonomy and full independence. The Duchy of Styria was divided between the new states of German-Austria and the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, but the exact line of the new border was unclear. Mickl's hometown of Radkersburg, an important railway junction point, was of economic importance to both sides. The Slovenes occupied the city on 1 December 1918..."

I think this would help the reader understand the motivations better. Do you think I am heading in the right direction? MisterBee1966 (talk) 17:48, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Great. I like it a lot. Would you do the honours? Peacemaker67 (send... over) 23:29, 25 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Support on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 21:19, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Comments: Support:
 * repetition: "was posted to the recently mobilised 4th Imperial-Royal Landwehr Infantry Regiment (LIR 4)" and "By the time Mickl joined the regiment it had already been mobilised";
 * fixed.


 * inconsistent punctuation: "In 1922,[7] he changed..." v. "In 1928 he was promoted..."
 * fixed


 * wording: "It was built around 3,500 German cadre troops..." --> "It was built around a cadre of 3,500 German troops..."?
 * much better, done.


 * the duplicate link checker tool reports the following duplicate links: Austria at the time of National Socialism; Galicia (Eastern Europe); Iron Cross;
 * removed. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 05:51, 17 November 2013 (UTC)


 * "On 8 August, Mickl was relieved of command..." Was this because of poor performance, or just a normal rotation? Do the sources say?
 * I get the impression it was because his masters weren't happy, but the sources don't make it clear.
 * No worries. AustralianRupert (talk) 02:46, 30 November 2013 (UTC)


 * "Mickl was shot in the head by Partisans near Senj on 9 April 1945" --> was this during combat, or was it an assassination attempt?
 * one (not very reliable) source says it was a sniper, but most likely combat. The sources I have don't specify.
 * No worries, thanks for taking a look. AustralianRupert (talk) 02:46, 30 November 2013 (UTC)


 * in the References, can the title of the Glaise work be translated for consistency? AustralianRupert (talk) 08:51, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 11:51, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for covering off on these points, I've added my support. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 02:46, 30 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Support
 * No dab links (no action req'd).
 * External links check out (no action req'd).
 * Image lacks Alt Text so you might consider adding it (suggestion only - not an ACR req).
 * The Citation Check Tool reveals no issues with reference consolidation (no action req'd).
 * Image appears to have an appropriate FUR, caption looks ok (no action req'd).
 * The Earwig Tool reveal no issues with copyright violation or close paraphrasing (no action req'd).
 * No duplicate links per WP:REPEATLINK (no action req'd).
 * Prose looks fine to me and level of coverage seems sufficient.
 * A couple of minor points outstanding above from AR which I agree with but am happy to support. Anotherclown (talk) 00:30, 24 November 2013 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it.  No further edits should be made to this discussion.