Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Johann von Klenau


 * The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.  No further edits should be made to this discussion.


 * Promoted -MBK004 06:59, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Johann von Klenau

 * Nominator(s): Auntieruth55 (talk)

I am nominating this article for A-Class review because...it meets the requirements and there's a gap in the Wikipedia literature on the Habsburg generals--plenty on the Napoleonic generals, and even some of the republican ones, but the Habsburg generals&mdash;not so much. It's been through GA, and Jackyd showed me how to make a cool box, and convinced me to expand it. As usual, I won't do the funky templates that add a,b,c,d, etc. on the references. It makes me crazy to read those articles, and add to them, so I don't use them myself. Sources are cited in full for the first reference, and after that are listed in abbreviated form. Bibliography and External links includes the sources I used. Thanks in advance for your helpful comments. Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:59, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

MisterBee1966 (talk) 10:23, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * MisterBee1966
 * check dabs: currently three are reported Carabineer, Offenbach and Order of Leopold
 * fixed. Thanks. I never remember to check for those. Auntieruth55 (talk) 17:07, 6 December 2009 (UTC)


 * The picture in the infobox looks weird. I think you may want to remove the thumb tag as well as move the text to the caption. MisterBee1966 (talk) 20:29, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The text was in the caption line, but the box had some weirdness. I fiddled with it and I think it's good now. Auntieruth55 (talk) 03:36, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Fix dashes, at least is incorrect. MisterBee1966 (talk) 20:34, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * they should be okay now. Auntieruth55 (talk) 03:36, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Fix link to "Peter Quasdanovich|Peter Quasdanovich's" MisterBee1966 (talk) 20:35, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, what was that! It's fixed now.  Auntieruth55 (talk) 03:36, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Handshuhsheim? Should this be Handschuhsheim? MisterBee1966 (talk) 09:18, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * fixed. Auntieruth55 (talk) 21:19, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "Field Marshal in Habsburg Service" what is Habsburg Service? I think that should be explained MisterBee1966 (talk) 09:22, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * done. Auntieruth55 (talk) 21:19, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

??Comments? Suggestions??? Auntieruth55 (talk) 03:15, 15 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "He fought in the Austria's wars with the Ottoman Empire" shouldn't this be "He fought in Austria's wars with the Ottoman Empire"?


 * 4000 men -> 4,000 men


 * "8th Hussar Regiment Wurmser" a reference to Dagobert von Wurmser is listed a few lines below. For help of understanding what a Wurmser Regiment is an explanation may be helpful.


 * on 14&ndash:15 January -> fix dashing


 * Battle of Eckmuhl -> Battle of Eckmühl


 * Marchfeld plain link to Morava (river)


 * promoted to General der Kavallerie isn't that a demotion? He was Field Marshall before
 * He was a Lt. Field Marshal before, equivalent English term is Lt. General. General of Cavalry is the next (and highest) rank up for a Cavalry man.  Feldzeugmarshal is for infantry, engineers, or artillery.  see Digby Smith's explanation here.  Auntieruth55 (talk) 16:08, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Very comprehensive article. I support the nomination for A-Class. MisterBee1966 (talk) 10:04, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * all comments addressed. See my note on the rank of general of cavalry. Thanks very much! Auntieruth55 (talk) 16:08, 16 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Support
 * "On the Danubian plains north of Vienna, two battles shaped the outcome of the 1809 campaign and Klenau's forces played a critical role at both the battles of Aspern-Essling and Wagram, each of which were significant engagements: At Aspern-Essling, for the Napoleon's army was decisively defeated in northern Europe, demonstrating that the master of Europe could himself be over-mastered;[28] and Wagram was the largest European land-battle to date, engaging 107 battalions and 78 squadrons of France and her allies, and 108 battalions and 141 squadrons on the Austrian side.[29]" Way too long of a sentence and rather badly written, please rephrase it. fixed
 * Have you considered making a section at the end listing the dates of his promotions and major awards, instead of that little box? The box looks somewhat out of place, and I've seen that done in other articles. sure, I could but it was suggested in a prior review that I put the material in a box. Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:32, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm, it just looks out of place to me somewhat. If others prefer the box though, that's fine. – Joe   N  22:03, 24 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Other than that it looks good, good job. – Joe   N  20:15, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * "107 battalions and 78 squadrons of France and her allies". This can't be right, I've only counted the battalions from the II, III and IV and IXth French Corps and I got to about 176. Could you please check the source, because it can't be the figure you are giving.I'm guessing it might be something like 207. --Alexandru.demian (talk) 19:21, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * yes. Those are the figures for Aspern. changed numbers. irt's 262 and 202. Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:10, 23 December 2009 (UTC)


 * comments? more suggestions? ????  Auntieruth55 (talk) 02:38, 28 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * "In 1795, by the terms of the Peace of Basel, the Prussians pulled out of the Rhine and Main river valleys. Without anyone to oppose them, the French over-ran these territories. Mannheim surrendered to the French without firing a shot[4] and Heidelberg appeared to be next." - just where is Heidelberg? And what is Heidelberg?
 * "Officer Cadet Klenau became a second lieutenant in 1775. He fought in the short War of the Bavarian Succession, also known as the Potato War, after transferring into a Chevauleger (light cavalry) regiment as a captain of cavalry, or Rittmeister." - why are second lieutenant and captain of cavalry in italics?
 * The whole "French Revolutionary Wars" section needs a little background. Why were the Austrians getting involved in France's civil war? How did Klenau get to ... wherever he received his promotion/where he was captured then rescued? I have many of the same questions for the "Action in the Italian theater" section.
 * "Klenau fought at the Battle of Bassano on 8 September, in which the Austrians were outnumbered almost two-to-one." - did the Austrians win or lose the battle? Don't make me click the link. :)
 * "Action in the Italian theater" section - Why was Austria in Italy now? When was it there? How did Klenau get there?
 * "Leading the advance guard of Peter Quasdanovich's right column as it descended from the Alps upon Brescia, Klenau's reconnaissance found the French garrison unprepared." - Peter who? Where is Brescia? Why is an Austrian army (I'm assuming...could be a regiment, for all I know) attacking this place?
 * "At midnight, Klenau led two squadrons of the 8th Hussar Regiment Wurmser (named for Dagobert von Wurmser), a battalion of the 37th Infantry Regiment De Vins, and one company of the Mahony Jägers." - who is Dagobert von Wurmser?
 * "However, alone at Montichiari, Klenau's force had to face Napoleon Bonaparte and 12,000 Frenchmen; his small advance guard was quickly pushed out on 1 August." - whaaat? Why was Napoleon now marching on Italy? And where is Montichiari? I don't want to click the links to find all of these locations!
 * "Klenau fought at the Battle of Bassano on 8 September, in which the Austrians were outnumbered almost two-to-one." - who won? Who were they fighting?
 * "When the garrison capitulated in February, Klenau co-signed the document with Wurmser." this is followed immediately by the section "Campaigns of 1799–1800". If he previously surrendered, how did he get away to fight again?
 * "In the 1799 campaign in Italy, Klenau and his 4,500 troops inspired and assisted in an uprising of another 4,000 or more peasants in the countryside." - where in the countryside? Just how did they "[inspire] and [assist]" them?
 * "This isolated the French-held fortresses, making them vulnerable to Suvorov's main force operating in the Po River valley." - what French fortresses?
 * "... and in May, 1800, he fought in the battles of Engen and Stockach and Messkirch against the troops of the French Army of the Rhine, under Moreau." - where were these battles fought?
 * "In the spring and summer of 1809, the Austrian army battled for the "survival of the dynasty," as Archduke Charles described the situation to his brother John." - who is this archduke and who is his brother?
 * I still need to go through the rest of the article, but can you see why I am having difficulties? Regards, — Ed   (talk  •  majestic titan)  20:01, 30 December 2009 (UTC)


 * okay, so you're having problems with the assumption of too much background information. This can be fixed readily.  Auntieruth55 (talk) 21:12, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, exactly. To someone who knows next to nothing about these wars like me, this article was virtually incomprehensible. :) I see you have started; take as much time as you need in adding the information. I'll wait until you are done before taking another gander through it. Regards, — Ed   (talk  •  majestic titan)  09:00, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * would you please take a gander through the parts of the article that are already expanded, and see if this is sufficient? I don't want to go tooooo far. :) Auntieruth55 (talk) 17:40, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Further comments - much better, thank you! A few more thoughts for you:
 * "In his early military career, Klenau demonstrated, not only at Zemon, but also in the skirmishing and raids of 1778-1779, the military acumen, flexibility, and intrepidity required of a successful cavalry officer." - may want to use less complex words at the end. I don't know what acumen is, non-military people may not understand why "flexibility" is important (or even what it is), and "intrepidity" is a rather complex word. okay, some adjustment made.
 * "From their base in Koblenz, immediately over the French border, they sought direct support for military intervention from the royal houses of Europe, and raised an army." - does this mean "immediately on the French border"? no.  adjacent?  fixed.
 * "On 12 February 1793, Klenau received his promotion to lieutenant colonel in a Lancer regiment serving under General of Cavalry Count Dagobert Sigmund von Wurmser." - why did he receive a promotion? Wurmser wanted him, I suspect.  None of the sources actually say why he was promoted.
 * "The outraged Austrian commanders had to withdraw across the Main river, because the French held the Rhine crossing point" - where is the Main river and what was the Rhine crossing point? The Main and the rhine run together.  If the French held the Rhine crossing point, the Austrians had to withdraw across the Main so they didn't get cut off from their buddies to the south. Fixed.
 * "Klenau took possession of the town on 21 May, and garrisoned it with a light battalion." "By 0300 on 23 May, the French had evacuated the town, which Klenau then garrisoned with the light battalion of Bach. After giving the requisite request for surrender at 0800, which was refused, Klenathe barrage from both from mortars and howitzers" - if they evacuated the town, why are there still French there fighting? they were in the fortress.  fixed
 * "on 24 May 1799, Klenau captured the fortress at Ferrara, a lynch-pin in the French Po River defenses." - the linchpin part should be mentioned earlier when describing the place. done
 * "Although Ferdinand retained nominal command, and Karl Mack, was timid, indecisive, and ill-suited for such an important assignment." - needs copyediting. Yes it did. Thanks. Done
 * "Murat captured intact Lieutenant Field Marshal Joseph, Baron von Mesko de Felsö-Kubiny's division of five infantry regiments (15,000 men) and 15 colors." - "colors"? — Ed   (talk  •  majestic titan)  01:24, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, I put an explanation of the colors in the note. other comments also fixed.  Auntieruth55 (talk) 02:10, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, it looks pretty darn good to me now! Support — Ed   (talk  •  majestic titan)  02:22, 4 January 2010 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.