Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/John S. Loisel/Archive1


 * The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.  No further edits should be made to this discussion.


 * Not promoted (closed by User:Sturmvogel 66) on 5 March 2010

John S. Loisel

 * Nominator(s): GregJackP (talk)

I am nominating this article for A-Class review because I feel that it meets the criteria for an A-level article. (GregJackP (talk) 00:10, 3 February 2010 (UTC))


 *  Object  the lead is too short. Secondly the references are repeated in full over and over, which I can fix easily  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket )  00:28, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, I'll work on the lead & references tomorrow. Did you notice anything else I need to fix?  Thanks for your help. (GregJackP (talk) 05:38, 3 February 2010 (UTC))
 * Given his achievements, as noted in the lead, is there more material on this fellow. There is certainly no shortage of books out there that catalogue the feats of prolific US soldiers. The article is quite short  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket )  07:45, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Short of doing original research, I'm not sure where else to look. I did a WorldCat search for him by name and units and pulled every book that mentioned him - most focus more on Dick Bong and the other major ace in his unit. There are also no articles to be found through either an EbscoHost, Proquest, HeritageQuest or Lexis searches. There just isn't that much more out there that I can find. (GregJackP (talk) 18:57, 11 February 2010 (UTC))
 * Struck object  YellowMonkey  ( vote in the Southern Stars photo poll )  06:06, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Just a few things you might like to consider. Cheers. — AustralianRupert (talk) 23:26, 7 February 2010 (UTC) AustralianRupert (talk) 11:27, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Comments
 * Article is currently ranked as B-class, and will therefore need MoS attention, if anyone is up to the task.
 * No problems reported with dab links. One external link is flagged, please check and advise. A handful of images lack alt text, please add this to the article forth with.
 * I couldn't determine which external link you are talking about - the toolbox didn't ID any with problems. Can you elaborate so I can fix it?  I'll fix the alt text issues. Done. (GregJackP (talk) 21:44, 4 February 2010 (UTC))
 * This happens every now and again; the tool will detect a site at an inopportune moment. If you can not locate a funny link then it means everything is up and working, so disregard that concern.
 * Your lead is too short, please expand it to at least two paragraphs.
 * Will do. How does it look now?
 * Lead still needs work. TomStar81 (Talk) 16:01, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
 * How about now? (GregJackP (talk) 15:52, 10 February 2010 (UTC))
 * Moving with his family early in life could be taken as any time from his departure as a newborn at the hospital to the day before he graduated high school. Please give as a date for the move, at a minimum the year, so we can get some perspective on this.
 * I don't have any information on this, and can't find anything that has been published. I tried look for census data to at least narrow it down, but haven't had any luck there.  Is this something that is required or just nice to have? Done. (GregJackP (talk) 21:44, 4 February 2010 (UTC))
 * Generally required at this level; as the higher up you go the hard the demands are for the article info, and this is the second highest rating offered on Wikipedia. If you'd like you can pull the ACR and file for a peer review instead for additional feedback on how the article could be improved so as to make this process somewhat easier. TomStar81 (Talk) 16:01, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Who were his parents? Did he have any siblings? What did his dad do for a living? Did he work somewhere before enlisting? Did he get a Bachelors/Masters/Doctorate before enlisting? There are no answers to these questions in the early life section, but I have a burning desire to know about this information, so please look into adding it.
 * I don't know who his parents were, and have names of two sisters - I'll add those. I do not believe he worked before joining - the bios I've referenced all indicate he went directly from high school to college, but there is nothing definitive.  He obtained his Bachelors after WWII (noted in the article with cites) and his Masters on retirement from the USAF (in article with cites). Done.(GregJackP (talk) 21:44, 4 February 2010 (UTC))
 * Five kills makes a man an ace in the air arms, please note this in the article.
 * Done. (GregJackP (talk) 21:44, 4 February 2010 (UTC))
 * Was he passed over for promotion to Brigadier General? The article doesn't say, but a man of such caliber would certainly be in a position for stars. See if you can find anything to this extent.
 * He did not attend the Air War College that I can tell, which is a prerequisite for promotion to flag rank.
 * The last two lines of the military service section have no source, please add a source for the material or remove it forthwith.
 * Will do. Done.(GregJackP (talk) 21:44, 4 February 2010 (UTC))
 * Expand the later life section, its rather thin at the moment.
 * Will do. Added additional information. (GregJackP (talk) 21:44, 4 February 2010 (UTC))
 * Kills 3-8 have no source in the table, please add a source for the information.
 * I meant for the cite in the column title 'Kills' to cover all of the kills, but will modify it to show it for each kill. Done (GregJackP (talk) 21:44, 4 February 2010 (UTC))
 * The entire awards and decorations section is uncited, see about correcting this please. TomStar81 (Talk) 13:43, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Will do. Done. (GregJackP (talk) 21:44, 4 February 2010 (UTC))
 * As a side note Greg, I want to make you aware of that fact that it is generally not a good idea to cross out other people's comments/suggestions/objections as you address them. The best thing to do is ask the person who left said comments/suggestions/objections to return to them and cross them out as he or she sees fit. That is not so much an issue for me, but others will take offense to having their comments crossed out by you and that can lead to charges of uncivil behavior. This is not meant to be a warning or anything, its just and FYI. TomStar81 (Talk) 19:46, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh. Did not mean to be discourteous or uncivil - I have removed the strike-outs. (GregJackP (talk) 20:11, 5 February 2010 (UTC))
 * Comments: Support
 * per the WP:MOS I think dates should not be wikilinked unless absolutely necessary to understanding some - you have linked a couple in Notes 3 & 4. As they are just access dates and are currently redlinks, I suggest unlinking them;
 * I'm not sure how to do that - both of those notes were generated using the template.  Any help would be appreciated. (GregJackP (talk) 03:07, 8 February 2010 (UTC))
 * Hmm, yes that is perplexing...I wonder if the template can be edited to stop it autolinking? Might be too hard, not sure. I've left a message on the template's talkpage, requesting if anyone knows how to fix this. Hopefully someone will offer assistance. — AustralianRupert (talk) 11:27, 9 February 2010 (UTC) ✅
 * the capitalisation of military ranks is incorrect: where they are being used as part of a title they should be capitalised, but elsewhere they should be lower case, e.g. "Lieutenant Colonel Loisel" is correct, but "Loisel was a Lieutenant Colonel" is not and should be changed to "Loisel was a lieutenant colonel".
 * OK, will do. Done. (GregJackP (talk) 03:07, 8 February 2010 (UTC))
 * can you provide a citation for the claim that his son and brothers preceded Loisel in death (see Later life section)?
 * The Dallas Morning News obit stated that he was survived by his wife, daughters and two sisters, and that his son preceded him in death. Done. Moved cite. (GregJackP (talk) 03:07, 8 February 2010 (UTC))
 * this sentence seems a little terse (in Later life section) and could possibly be tweaked for flow: " Loisel was married to Rachel (Hultman) Loisel, had a son (John S. Loisel, Jr.) and a daughter (Susan Bryan)."
 * Will do. Done. (GregJackP (talk) 03:07, 8 February 2010 (UTC))
 * OK, I've struck my issues that have been dealt with. I have a couple more, though, sorry:
 * The last sentence in the first paragraph of the Military career section needs a citation (begins "Loisel was then assigned as cadre...");
 * Will do. Done. (GregJackP (talk) 20:12, 9 February 2010 (UTC))
 * Last sentence in the second paragraph of the Military career section needs a citation (begins "In August 1944...")
 * Will do. Done. (GregJackP (talk) 20:12, 9 February 2010 (UTC))
 * Most of the links that are included in the External links section have already been linked in the Notes (citations), I suggest only including those in the External links section that have not been linked previously in a citation (i.e. remove Nebraska Aviation Hall of Fame, Acepilots.com, Adamsplanes.com, USAF Air University), otherwise you are overlinking them;
 * Will do. Done. (GregJackP (talk) 20:12, 9 February 2010 (UTC))
 * I think that there is a tense issue in the second sentence of the second paragraph of the Military career section (beginning "Flying a..."). I think "earning" should be "earned" in this case;
 * Will do. Done. (GregJackP (talk) 20:12, 9 February 2010 (UTC))
 * As per Yellowmonkey's comment, I'd probably like to see a bit more detail about the aerial victories. Is it possible to flesh out some details about the "kills" themselves? —
 * Will do. Done. (GregJackP (talk) 20:12, 9 February 2010 (UTC))
 * All of my comments have been dealt with, so I've add my support. AustralianRupert (talk) 21:47, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Anotherclown (talk) 11:48, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Comments:
 * Another drive by from me only:
 * Minor point, but I don't believe anything is added to the article by the inclusion of the squadron logos for all the squadrons he served in. IMO they are really only decorative and probably should be removed or included in a less obtrusive manner. Not sure if that is a requirement of an ACR or the MOS though.
 * OK, I'll look at that - I would like to include them if possible, but will see if I can do it less obtrusively. (GregJackP (talk) 20:12, 9 February 2010 (UTC))


 * Just a suggestion, but maybe include them as thumbnails in the infobox next to 'commands held'? Not sure what the MOS says about that, I'm just thinking out loud (which can be dangerous in wikiland). Anotherclown (talk) 06:09, 10 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Will do. Done. (GregJackP (talk) 15:50, 10 February 2010 (UTC))


 * Support - looks good. Anotherclown (talk) 11:16, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

To everyone: I really appreciate the help on making this a better article. Thanks, (GregJackP (talk) 20:12, 9 February 2010 (UTC))


 * Support.
 * "He relinquished command on April 18, 1946 and returned to the States" Please rephrase to remove the colloquialism of "the States."
 * Will do. Done. (GregJackP (talk) 03:59, 13 February 2010 (UTC))
 * Is the See Also section really needed? If you can find a place to, it'd be nice to integrate those two links into the text.
 * OK, I'll look at that. Removed section. (GregJackP (talk) 03:59, 13 February 2010 (UTC))
 * Just fix these two and it'll be good. Good job. – Joe   N  23:37, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - sorry, but I just do not believe this article is quite comprehensive enough for an A-Class article. I think it leaves to many gaps about this man's life, and the reader is still left with some unanswered questions. I think this perhaps should have gone to Good article nominations first. My suggestions for improvement are:
 * The "Early life" section is quite good. However, the phrase "worked as a "Commercial Traveler" (i.e. salesman)" does not sit well with me with the "(i.e. salesman)" trailing. Perhaps just a wikilink of "Commercial Traveler" to Sales or some such?
 * *Will do. I had to look up Commercial Traveler and thought that the 'i.e.' was appropriate to explain that, but I can change it. Done. (GregJackP (talk) 03:59, 13 February 2010 (UTC))


 * "he was initially assigned as an instructor" - what kind of instructor? I presume flight, but this needs to be clarified.
 * Will do. I believe it was as a flight instructor, but I'll check and update. Done. (GregJackP (talk) 03:59, 13 February 2010 (UTC))


 * It needs to be clarified that the article is referring to the Second World War in the "Military career" section.
 * Most of the material is the WWII period, but it also covers some Korean War info. I'll expand it some. (GregJackP (talk) 03:59, 13 February 2010 (UTC))
 * I know that the information in that section covers more than just the Second World War. However, what I am saying is that it needs to be clarified that it is talking about the Second World War. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 01:15, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Will do. Done. (GregJackP (talk) 20:32, 15 February 2010 (UTC))


 * There is quite a bit of repetition of "assigned" in rather close proximity in the first paragraph of the "Military career" section that should be reduced.
 * Will do. Done. (GregJackP (talk) 03:59, 13 February 2010 (UTC))


 * This is where comprehensiveness and unanswered questions come into it:
 * There is no detail or mention on what missions Loisel took part in or what his duties were, in both the Second World War and Korean War.
 * Will attempt to find out more and expand. Done. (GregJackP (talk) 03:59, 13 February 2010 (UTC))


 * It is mentioned that he was awarded the Silver Star, but nothing on why.
 * The Silver Star was generally awarded to an ace (see Silver Star, I'll see if I can find something specific. (GregJackP (talk) 03:59, 13 February 2010 (UTC))
 * I have requested a copy of the award citation from the military personnel center, but it may take several weeks to get here. (GregJackP (talk) 22:30, 13 February 2010 (UTC))


 * I really think the information on his aerial victories should be expanded upon in the prose and the table be removed.
 * I would like to hear more on this - several articles on aces have the information presented the same way. I'll look at other A-class articles that are on fighter pilots and try to follow those as an example. (GregJackP (talk) 03:59, 13 February 2010 (UTC))
 * I must admit, there are very few articles on aces I have seen that present the victories in a table format and none have been at the A-Class level. John Lloyd Waddy, Max-Hellmuth Ostermann and Cedric Howell are all examples of A-Class or higher articles on flying aces. Regardless of the table, his victories really do need to be expanded upon in the prose. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 01:15, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Will do. Done. (GregJackP (talk) 19:16, 15 February 2010 (UTC))
 * Would it be possible to merge the section on his aerial victories into the section on World War Two, rather than having it as a seperate section (as it is currently)? As it currently stands it seems unchronlogical and, IMO, almost counter-intuitive. Anotherclown (talk) 06:43, 18 February 2010 (UTC)


 * It also isn't really explained how he had been in combat than any other American fighter pilot. Did he have more the most flight time on combat missions, or was it that he was posted to the Pacific for three years?
 * It was the amount of calendar time that he spent in the PTO flying combat missions, I'll clarify in the article. Done. (GregJackP (talk) 03:59, 13 February 2010 (UTC))


 * There is too much repetition of Loisel's name in close proximity, which should be reduced.
 * Will do. Done. (GregJackP (talk) 03:59, 13 February 2010 (UTC))


 * In the "Later life" section, it should be commas either side of his children's names, not brackets. Same with his sisters.
 * Will do. Done. (GregJackP (talk) 03:59, 13 February 2010 (UTC))


 * When did he and his wife marry?
 * Will do. Done. (GregJackP (talk) 03:59, 13 February 2010 (UTC))


 * Are the unit icons for the commands he held really necessary in the infobox? THey just come off as image cruft.
 * It was at the suggestion of another reviewer - I'm open to the best way to present them. (GregJackP (talk) 03:59, 13 February 2010 (UTC))
 * IMHO, I do not think they really add much to the article at all and there is very little use in having them. Just my thoughts, though. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 01:15, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, I'll remove them. Done. (GregJackP (talk) 19:16, 15 February 2010 (UTC))


 * I think the relevant information in the "Awards and decorations" should be expanded upon in the prose and the section removed. His decorations such as the Silver Star, Legion of Merit, Distinguished Flying Cross and Air Medal should be introduced in the prose with how and when he was awarded them, and the same for these listed in the "Other honors" section. Overall, to me this list just comes off as a heap of image and list cruft, with information that should be covered in the prose. If one wants to know more about the decoration, such as the ribbon design, they will click on the link.
 * I would like to hear more on this - several articles on aces have the information presented the same way. I'll look at other A-class articles that are on fighter pilots and try to follow those as an example. (GregJackP (talk) 03:59, 13 February 2010 (UTC))
 * Basically the same reply above regarding victory tables; I have not seen an A-Class or higher level article on an ace with a list of medals and ribbons. Again, regardless of this, the awards also really need to be expaned upon in the prose. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 01:15, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Max-Hellmuth Ostermann has his awards listed in a separate section. I would like to keep this, but I'll do whatever it takes to move this forward. (GregJackP (talk) 20:32, 15 February 2010 (UTC))


 * There is inconsistency in the presentation of access dates.
 * I don't understand this comment. (GregJackP (talk) 03:59, 13 February 2010 (UTC))
 * Okay, I'll fix this one up for you as it is probably the easiest way for you to understand and me explain. :) Basically, as you would know, when one uses an internet citation we add the date we accessed the site. It is always best to present the access dates in the same format. For example: either presenting them as "14 February 2010", "February 14, 2010" or "2010-02-14". In this case, most were uniform but tehre was one presented in a differing format. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 01:15, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Doh - now I feel stupid :) As soon as you explained it, it made sense. I'll check that from here on out. Thanks. (GregJackP (talk) 02:03, 14 February 2010 (UTC))

Overall, this article is rather good and I'm sorry to oppose, but, as I said, I just do not believe it is quite comprehensive enough for A-Class as it currently stands. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 01:34, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Note: My opposition on this article's elevation to A-Class still stands and I have posted additional comments on the author's talk page at their request. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 02:18, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

For convenience, I am listing the objections of Abraham, B.S. from my user page.


 * Is it known where he attended school?
 * Norfolk, Nebraska; Wayne State; Univ of Nebraska; Univ of North Texas; all mentioned in the article. (GregJackP (talk) 03:45, 21 February 2010 (UTC))


 * In the first two sentences of the "World War II" section, it abruptly jumps from talking about him being a flight instructor to being sent to the Philippines. This needs to be introduced better, with information on why he was being sent to the Philippines. It also still needs to be clarified that this is talking about the Second World War; the heading is not enough.
 * Will do. Done. (GregJackP (talk) 03:45, 21 February 2010 (UTC))


 * "he shot down five Japanese fighters within his first two months" - it should be clarified whether this is refering to his first two months with the squadron, or in New Guinea.
 * Will do. Done. (GregJackP (talk) 03:45, 21 February 2010 (UTC))


 * Is it known why he returned to the US in August 1944?
 * I'll find out - I believe it was due to the length of time, his achievement as a double ace (most were pulled for war bond tours). (GregJackP (talk) 03:45, 21 February 2010 (UTC))


 * "He had, by the age of 25, become a lieutenant colonel, a fighter group commander, earned the Silver Star, his assignment to the PTO for over three years was longer than any other American fighter pilot served in combat, and he flew more than 875 hours in combat." - this sentence reads awkwardly and has some gramatical issues, so could do with a re-write.
 * Will do. Done. (GregJackP (talk) 03:45, 21 February 2010 (UTC))


 * Are the three mentioned aces the ones that scored higher than Loisel? If so, this should be clarified.
 * Yes, all three had more kills. I will clarify. Done.  (GregJackP (talk) 03:45, 21 February 2010 (UTC))


 * "to earn his bachelor's degree in physics (in 1949)" - having the year of 1949 in brackets is awkward and somewhat random. Was that the year he graduated with his degree? If so, it could be introduced somewhat along the lines of "to earn his bachelor's degree in physics; he graduated in 1949."
 * Will do. Done. (GregJackP (talk) 03:45, 21 February 2010 (UTC))


 * When was he CO of the 63rd Fighter Squadron?
 * I'll find out. Done.(GregJackP (talk) 03:45, 21 February 2010 (UTC))


 * Loisel's service in Korea could do with some extra details.
 * I'll see what I can find. (GregJackP (talk) 03:45, 21 February 2010 (UTC))


 * The "Post-Korea Career" really is to short to warrant its own section. I would advise integrating it with the information in the "Korea" section to form a "Korea and beyond" or "Korea and later career" section.
 * I'll either expand or merge. (GregJackP (talk) 03:45, 21 February 2010 (UTC))


 * The "Aerial victories" section should not be a separate section on its own, but should be appropiately intrgrated in the "World War II" section.
 * Will do. (GregJackP (talk) 03:45, 21 February 2010 (UTC))


 * Again, still not fussed on the list of honours and awards. The section you referred to in Max-Hellmuth Ostermann I think is quite different. First, it does not have images of ribbons nor is it presented just as a list. This section only mentions decorations, not service or campaign medals, and also has more information. I really do not think this section adds very little value to the Loisel article, but I think the worst things is that, in this list, the only decoration in it that is mentioned in the prose is his Silver Star. His Silver Star, Legion of Merit, Distinguished Flying Crosses and Air Medals should all be covered in the prose with information on why Loisel was awared these docorations. The must be something out there on at least a few of these.
 * I have requested information on these from the National Military Personnel Center - if it was not destroyed in the 1973 fire. I have checked all the books listed in WorldCat, I've searched EbscoHost, JSTOR, HeritageQuest, ProQuest, and other scholarly databases without success for information on Loisel. Except for the military bios, there are no details, and the bios just summarize the awards.  I'll remove the images. Done and removed the service awards. (GregJackP (talk) 03:45, 21 February 2010 (UTC))


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.