Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/List of avisos of Germany

Article promoted by Hawkeye7 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 21:20, 31 July 2020 (UTC) &laquo; Return to A-Class review list

List of avisos of Germany
Instructions for nominators and reviewers
 * Nominator(s): 

This list covers the avisos built by the Prussian, Imperial German, and Nazi German navies between the 1840s and 1930s, and is the culmination of a project last year to document all of them. Thanks to all who take the time to review the list in preparation for a run at FLC. Parsecboy (talk) 20:36, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Comments Support by PM
This is looking good. A few comments from me: That's all I could find. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:13, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
 * French F forces in the Baltic and link Baltic Sea
 * Done
 * the Nix-class had two marine steam engines
 * Good catch
 * link Swinemünde
 * Done
 * say who Otto von Diederichs was, "future Admiral"? Same for Alfred von Tirpitz
 * Done
 * "in the 1890s in the 1890s"? and?
 * Whoops!
 * The Blitz-class speed is as designed, not top speed generated (which was less in both cases)
 * Good catch
 * in the Wacht-class table, "3 × 10. cm guns" and you could add the calibre (ie L/35)
 * Done
 * The Meteor-class top speed should probably be 19.5 kn
 * Done
 * Should Hela's speed be 20.5 kn achieved in her sea trials?
 * I generally prefer not to use trials speeds since there are a lot of variables at play that don't reflect normal conditions (and they were frequently manipulated for a variety of reasons), apart from the cases where like with the Blitzes, the ships did not reach their intended speed
 * author-link Erich Gröner and Theodore Ropp
 * Thanks PM Parsecboy (talk) 15:18, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * No worries, looking good for FLC IMHO. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:49, 16 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Image review—pass
 * File:Kaiserliche Marine Greif, Meteor und Jagd spähen bei Brüsterort, Chromo-Lithographie von Willy Stöwer 1894, nr9 aus G. Wislicenus, Unsre Kriegsflotte.jpg is certainly PD Germany, but I don't see a US rationale for it.
 * Added and improved the source info
 * I transferred two files to commons because the photographer died in 1934.
 * See File:S.M. Kleiner Kreuzer Hela.jpg for an example on how to handle multiple country tags under a PD-Art tag. Previous licensing was incorrect.
 * The old tags were right, it just lacked the author info
 * Other images are OK. buidhe 18:30, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks Buidhe. Parsecboy (talk) 16:09, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Support by Nick-D
The Imperial German Navy seems to have specialised in slightly odd ships, and these are a good example! I have the following comments:
 * Or is it just that the German navies are better documented than others? ;-)
 * The German Navy seems to have always had more than it's fair share of slightly odd ships. The modern German Navy's Baden-Württemberg-class frigates don't make much sense, for instance, as they're destroyer sized ships with a very modest armament despite being intended for inshore work. Nick-D (talk) 09:29, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Support But please tweak per my first comment. Nick-D (talk) 09:29, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "was also the last major German warship to be built abroad" - the Lütjens-class destroyers were built in the US, so I don't think this is correct as written.
 * Clarified that it was the last of the Imperial fleet
 * This doesn't seem to have been done yet?
 * Ah, I fixed it in the body but not the lead - that's done now too. Parsecboy (talk) 13:32, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * "In the Mediterranean Sea with a pair of gunboats on the eve of the Second Schleswig War" - was the ship back in naval service at this time if she was operating with gunboats?
 * Yes - apparently forgot to include that step in the ship's history
 * "Greif was not a successful warship" - can you say why? Nick-D (talk) 06:06, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Gardiner doesn't explain why, and Hildebrand et. al. don't discuss any design shortcomings - I'd assume the lack of torpedoes and her poor handling. Parsecboy (talk) 17:56, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Nick-D (talk) 09:29, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Comment by CPA-5
I don't think this article's name is the right name. I believe it should be like the "List of battleships of Russia and the Soviet Union" because this also includes Prussia which wasn't Germany; I believe it needs to be "List of avisos of Germany and Prussia". I think that's the main issue here. I'll do a review when this issue is solved. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 18:31, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It is generally accepted that Germany was the successor state to the Prussian-led North German Confederation, so I disagree with the idea this is needed. In this case, concision outweighs precision IMHO. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:15, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * True that. But isn't the Soviet Union also the successor (and technically also the predecessor) of Russia and is still part of the list's name? I'd say Soviet Union was also accepted to be the successor of Russia. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 15:05, 3 July 2020 (UTC)


 * WTF does this have to do with Russia?  Hawkeye7   (discuss)  11:31, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Not a lot, but I just don't understand why do we have a list where both Russian and Soviet ships are in and is called "List of battleships of Russia and the Soviet Union" while this has both German and Prussian ships but is called "List of avisos of Germany" instead of "List of avisos of Germany and Prussia"? To me Russia is the predecessor of Soviet Union so it makes a lot of sense to include it in the title while Prussia is also a predecessor but this time of Germany but Prussia isn't part of the title. I just want an answer why isn't it called "List of avisos of Germany and Prussia"? Cheers.
 * Hello, I think this might be interesting for you. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 15:00, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Like Peacemaker, I prefer a shorter title when the meaning is clear - my view is that any of the navies of the German lands should be included in these lists (which is why if I ever get around to a List of gunboats of Germany, it'd include vessels like Von der Tann (gunboat) of the Schleswig-Holstein navy (and bear in mind that the title of such a list would become impossibly cumbersome if we included Hannover, Prussia, Schleswig-Holstein, etc.). Consider: List of destroyers of Germany is a much better title than List of destroyers of Germany and West Germany (assuming one doesn't feel the need to differentiate between the other German states.
 * Hmm if we indeed are talking about geographic Germany then that's fine. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 15:45, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * As an aside, I'd think List of battleships of Russia would be pretty widely intelligible to readers; the USSR was very commonly referred to as "Russia" in the Anglosphere. Parsecboy (talk) 15:29, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't know – I've never seen people calling Soviet Union Russia. I only have seen people calling it on the internet but never in the media. Maybe that's an American thing or colloquial I don't know. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 15:45, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Try typing World War II Russia into google books ;) Parsecboy (talk) 16:17, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

G'day, anything outstanding needed from your perspective? Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:53, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Source review - pass
All of the sources are high quality reliable specialist naval sources or other reliable sources. I haven't done any spot checks based on the nominator's long history at ACR. All good. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:26, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Comments by Pendright
Back soon - Pendright (talk) 20:32, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Preussischer Adler:
 * Preussischer Adler was an iron-hulled paddle steamer originally built for the Prussian postal service to operate on the packet route between Prussia and Russia in the mid-1840s.
 * Consider a comma after steamer.


 * The ship was requisitioned early in her career during the First Schleswig War to defend the Prussian coast from the more powerful Danish Navy that imposed a blockade on Prussia's and the other German states' ports.
 * "during the First Schleswig War" seems to have the characteristics of supplemental information and ordinarily is set off by commas.

Nix-class:
 * The two Nix-class avisos were ordered in the immediate aftermath of the First Schleswig War as part of a program intended to strengthen the Prussian fleeti
 * Add a comma after war


 * The Prussians were not satisfied with the ships, in part a result of Nix's fires and general unfamiliarity with operating steamships.
 * Probably need an "as" between part & a.


 * They sold the vessels to Britain in exchange for the sail frigate Thetis in 1855; Nix and Salamander became HMS Weser and Recruit, respectively.
 * Was it a sale and an exchange, or just a sale, or just an exchange?

Grille:
 * Grille was ordered in 1855 as part of Adalbert's fleet expansion program; she was the first steam ship to use screw propellers rather than the paddle wheels of earlier vessels.
 * The Oxfprd American Dictiomary spells steamship as one word.


 * She sortied on 16 April with Adalbert aboard to attack the Danish blockade squadron in the Baltic that resulted in an inconclusive encounter with the Danish ship of the line Skjold and the steam frigate Sjælland.
 * Is it 16 April 1855?
 * This is a 36 word sentence without a puncuated pause?

Loreley:
 * She was purchased by what was now the North German Federal Navy in August 1870,
 * She was purchased by what was "then" the North German Federal Navy in August 1870,

Pommerania:
 * The navy brought the ship into commission during the Franco-Prussian War but crew shortages delayed conversion until after the war.
 * Add a comma before but.


 * She went to the Mediterranean with the ironclad training squadron in 1876 in response to the murder of a German diplomat in Salonika.
 * Consdier adding a "semicolon or a comma" after 1876?

Zieten:
 * Future admiral Otto von Diederichs served aboard the ship during her first year in service, [at] which [time it] involved tests of the bow torpedo tubes that demonstrated [ that ] the bow tube, located in the hull below the waterline, was not satisfactory; Diederichs arranged for the tube to be moved to a swivel mount on the deck.
 * The definite article should start the sentence.
 * Consider the bracketed [changes] or simiar ones.
 * The last clause seems like it could stand on its own as another sentence, given that this sentence is a 54 word one.

Blitz class:
 * They operated as dedicated tenders to the battle squadrons of the High Seas Fleet ...
 * Consider replacing "to" with "for


 * Blitz took part in Operation Albion in the Baltic Sea in late 1917 and Pfeil was later used as a training ship for U-boat crews.
 * Add a comma after 1917 to separate the indepencent clauses.

Greif:
 * Greif was designed at a time where torpedoes had become effective weapons and spurred the development of the Jeune École, which held that cheap torpedo boats could destroy large, expensive battleships.
 * "where" should probably be "when"
 * Add a comma after weapons to join the independent clauses.
 * ... "which" held that ... Who held the opinion that followed.


 * She was intended to guard the capital ships of the fleet against torpedo boat attacks, and for this role, she carried a battery of 10.5 cm (4.1 in) and 3.7 cm (1.5 in) guns. Unlike other German avisos of the period, she carried no torpedo tubes.
 * Why the comma after role?


 * Greif was not a successful warship, however, and she spent much of her career laid up, out of service.
 * however or and - which is it?

Hela:
 * She nevertheless proved to be too weakly armed for fleet service, and the next cruising-type vessel to be built in Germany was the Gazelle class of light cruisers; ...
 * After this phrase, "She nevertheless proved to be too weakly armed for fleet service" consider adding a full stop. And begin a new sentence, because the subject has seemed to have pretty much changed.

Grille:
 * Grille was then sold to a Lebanese businessman, and, after arriving in Beirut, was attacked by Jewish commandos in 1947 because they incorrectly suspected that it would be used against Jewish forces during the ongoing civil war in Palestine.
 * Consider the following changes or something similar. >>> Grille was then sold to a Lebanese businessman. After arriving in Beirut in 1947, she was attacked by Jewish commandos who incorrectly suspected that Grille would be used against Jewish forces during the ongoing civil war in Palestine

Finished - Pendright (talk) 23:55, 26 July 2020 (UTC)