Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Stanley Savige


 * The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.  No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Stanley Savige

 * Passed --Eurocopter (talk) 18:10, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (talk)

I am nominating this article for A-Class review because I believe it meets the criteria. Stan Savige was one of the most controversial Australian senior soldiers of World War II. Probably embodied all the differences between the Second AIF and the First. Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:12, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Comments Support
 * The lead requires an expansion. Also, a few dabs need to be fixed. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 00:35, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅. Dabs fixed. Intro expanded. Hawkeye7 (talk) 13:38, 12 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I think further depth on why Savige was awarded the Military Cross, Distinguished Service Order and recommended for a bar to his Military Cross are needed. The addition of the citations aren;t bad, but your own descriptions of the actions require greater description and depth as, at the moment, I only have a vague idea on why he received the decorations.


 * "On 8 November, he was wounded at Flers but remained on duty." - is it known what his wound(s) were? Scrapnel? Bullet?
 * ❌ Oddly, no. His personnel file merely says "wounded but remained on duty". Had he been hospitalised there would have been a medical record.


 * "Savige finally married Lilian Stockton at 28 June 1919 at the South Yarra Baptist Church." - perhaps his return to Australia should be mentioned first.


 * What was the "fairly successful business" he ran during the 1920's?


 * Just for future note, emdashes (&mdash;) should be unspaced.


 * In regards to the quote at the end of the first paragraph in the "Libya" section, would you be able to introduce/connect it a little more? For example, "Historian Jeffrey Grey described the situation as such", or something?
 * ✅ I think that would sound like an appeal to the authority of my eminent PhD supervisor. Re-phrased.


 * "Although the campaign had raised serious doubts about his suitability for command" - not much is explained about Savige's failings/suitability for command during the early North African Campaign. Could further information/detail be added in regards to this area?
 * ✅ Added a little bit.


 * What was Savige Force, as mentioned under the "Greece" section?


 * "scored a notable success in the Battle of Damour, although his conduct was not above criticism by Brigadier Frank Berryman." - what did Berryman criticise?
 * ✅ Added a bit more.


 * "In this case, difficulties arose from the fact that Herring failed to make it clear to Savige and Wilton exactly what was meant by "threaten", and what would up being threatened by Savige's very success was Blamey's plan for the capture of Lae, which called for the Japanese defenders of Lae to be drawn away towards Salamaua." - two points here: 1. this sentence makes little sense ("what would up being threatened") 2. this sentence is quite long.


 * "On 23 August, Savige, bitterly disappointed that he would not see the final capture of Salamaua, and the 3rd Division handed over the Salamaua operation to the 5th Division under Major General Edward Milford." - this sentence also reguires some clarfication ("capture of Salamaua, and the 3rd Division").


 * "Savige was awarded a Companion of the Order of the Bath for his services in the battle." - what battle? This should be clarified.


 * "On being informed that Savige was senior to Vasey&mdash;although not as senior as Arthur "Tubby" Allen or James Cannan&mdash;he dropped his objection." - this sentence implies that Blamey also informed Forde that Allen and Cannan were senior to Savige, though I do not think this was the case or your intention.
 * ✅ No, that was both the case and my intention. Re-phrased.


 * " At this time, no major combat operations were winding down in Australian New Guinea" - I'm confused over this sentence. Are you saying that major battles were still taking place, or that it was all winding down?


 * "On 9 September 1944, General Douglas MacArthur discarded the task force organisation and from the US Sixth and Eighth Armies and Lieutenant General Vernon Sturdee’s First Army reported directly to him." - some clarification is needed here ("and from").


 * "more than 40,000 Japanese were still alive on Bougainville in November 1944. But not for long." - the latter part comes off as slightly POV to me.


 * Would you be able to elaborate further on Savige's KBE? What was it awarded, etc?

Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 07:26, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * All of my concerns have now been addressed, so I am happy to support. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 00:07, 17 March 2009 (UTC)


 * References comments - (this version)
 * What is ref #6?
 * His Army personnel file:
 * NAA = National Archives of Australia.
 * ACT = Canberra office (where the hard copy can be viewed).
 * B883 = Series Number. (Second Australian Imperial Force Personnel Dossiers, 1939-1947).
 * VX13 = Item number. (Savige's AIF serial number.)
 * It's available online but not through a URL; you need to use Recordsearch. Enter the series number and item number and the file will appear. Hawkeye7 (talk) 04:49, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * You can actually use this through URL, Hawkeye. Just click on the link and add the initial URL as it pops up (if you turn a page in the file the URL goes back to a default one or something, but the first one works). See cite #19 on John Whittle for an example. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 06:18, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Well we can try. My recollection is that they go stale after a while. Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:18, 17 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Ref #92 needs an access date. :)

Otherwise, everything reference-wise looks good! — Ed 17  (Talk /  Contribs)  04:15, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Support Comments Another well written and immensely useful Australian general officer bio - my usual round of comments:
 * Infobox: Picky, I know, but isn't 'Stan' just a diminutive, rather than a nickname? I think it'd work better to leave it out of the infobox and call him Sir Stanley George (Stan) Savige in the first line of the intro - however, I won't be opposing on this point...!
 * No, "Stan" is a form of nickname known as a short name. A diminutive would be something like "Stannie" or "Stanno". Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:17, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Learn something new every day - anyway, tks for taking care of all the rest, and well done! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:39, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Intro: "His outspoken criticism of professional soldiers earned him rancour from their embittered ranks, but he commanded a division in the Salamaua-Lae campaign." I think could be better rendered as "His outspoken criticism of professional soldiers earned him rancour, but he was given command of a division in the Salamaua-Lae campaign." This seems to flow a bit more, and "embittered ranks" was a bit peacock-ish.
 * ✅ Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:17, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Western Front: "Extraordinary tenacity was bravery was required but somehow the position was held" - I presume "tenacity and bravery" is meant.
 * ✅ Yep. Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:17, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Between the wars: While I find the subheadings entirely logical and appropriate, I think single-para subsections are discouraged at FAC and you might find it simpler to just make it a three-para section - unless you want to expand any of them further.
 * ✅ The headings actually predate the text...
 * World War II: Same thing here, might make sense to combine the short Greece and Syria subsections into one, and move Defence of Australia to the opening of the Wau-Salamaua subsection.
 * Libya:
 * "Savige's 17th Infantry Brigade was given a complicated role in the Battle of Bardia for an inexperienced brigade" I think works better as "Considering its inexperience, Savige's 17th Infantry Brigade was given a complicated role in the Battle of Bardia" or something like that.
 * ✅ Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:17, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * "By nightfall, Colonel Berryman had reached the conclusion..." - do I gather this is Frank Berryman? If so, best put the first name in for clarification.
 * ✅ Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:17, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Also I think we need his position stated up front, at the moment I'm left wondering exactly what his relationship is to the Brigade in question (I assume 2IC, maybe I'm wrong)...
 * ✅ GSO1. Added text. Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:17, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * "At the Battle of Tobruk, the 17th Infantry Brigade was again split up and given a secondary role. However, in the advance on Derna, Savige's 17th Infantry Brigade managed to beat Robertson's 19th Infantry Brigade to Giovanni Berta." - do we need "17th Infantry Brigade" repeated in successive sentences; I think just "it" would probably be enough.
 * ✅ Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:17, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Syria: "...which Savige rated as his most battle of the war" - "most successful battle"...?
 * ✅ Good guess. Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:17, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Defence of Australia: "It did not work out quite that way" seems a bit idiosyncratic for the opening line of a new subsection. Personally I like its informality but not sure it's very encyclopedic...
 * ✅. I have to switch brains while typing... Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:17, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Wau-Salamaua:
 * "Blamey did not initially intend for Savige to command it, as it was "tough going up there" and he had doubts about Savige's physical fitness" - seems appropriate to say "he still had doubts about Savige's physical fitness", given what's said in the second para of the Syria subsection.
 * ✅ Hawkeye7 (talk)
 * "He visited forward positions and flew over frontline areas wearing his scarlet general's cap band to let his men—and any Japanese sniper who fancied himself—know that the general was on the job" - I love the language but, again, not sure of the appropriateness here of "any Japanese sniper who fancied himself". At the very least I'd make it "any Japanese sniper who fancied his chances"... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:08, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * "He visited forward positions and flew over frontline areas wearing his scarlet general's cap band to let his men—and any Japanese sniper who fancied himself—know that the general was on the job" - I love the language but, again, not sure of the appropriateness here of "any Japanese sniper who fancied himself". At the very least I'd make it "any Japanese sniper who fancied his chances"... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:08, 22 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment. Section on Persia has to many short paras. Consider merging/expanding so it looks better. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 02:08, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The main thing is the two block quotes. I tried merging everything into one paragraph and it still looks the same. Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:21, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment . A few issues, most of them fixable, but I would like to see them fixed before I support.
 * The quote in the first paragraph of the section on Persia is awkward, what task is superhuman? Consider introducing it better.
 * ✅ Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:02, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * "He showed fine control organisation and leadership throughout. culminating in an excellent example of initiative and drive which broke the enemy flank west of Derna thus accelerating the enemy retreat and final defeat." Did you really intend the first period to be there? If it's copied from the source, fine, but make sure it's not a typo.
 * ✅. It was a typo. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:02, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * "it was trying to fight on a three-brigade front with only two brigades" Please explain what you mean by three-brigade front.
 * ✅ re-worded. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:02, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * You say he was sent back to Australia on a recruiting campaign, but then that he was put in charge of a division. Please explain how he ended up there.
 * ✅ Added explanatory sentence. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:02, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * "Although geographically the largest of the Solomon Islands, Bougainville was politically part of Australian New Guinea and Prime Minister John Curtin desired that Australia should contribute to the garrison." Why although?
 * ✅ Bougainville is not politically part of the Solomon Islands. Inserted some more links. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:02, 28 March 2009 (UTC)


 * When these are done it will be ready for A-class. – Joe   N  20:13, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Good job! Supporting now. – Joe   N  23:30, 28 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.