Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Sudirman


 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.  No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted Hawkeye7 (talk) 04:54, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Sudirman

 * Nominator(s): — Crisco 1492 (talk)

I am nominating this article for A-Class review because I feel it is a thorough look at a major figure in Indonesian history. Despite dying by his mid-30s, he has remained one of Indonesia's greatest military figures and, in the words of Katharine McGregor, retains a "saint-like status" in the country. This is easily my longest article yet, but I think the writing is concise enough that it won't be a problem. Admittedly there are numerous (30) explanatory footnotes, but as this background knowledge won't be held by most readers I feel it is generally necessary. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:40, 13 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Support I recently reviewed this article for GA status, and think that the A-class criteria are also met. I'd suggest a through copy edit before it goes to FAC though (and am happy to volunteer my services if you'd like a second pair of eyes to go over the prose in detail). Nick-D (talk) 11:48, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I was thinking of having a couple non-MilHist editors go over the article as well (to ensure it's accessible to everyone, as few people have enough contextual knowledge to properly enjoy the article) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:32, 17 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Images:I am yet to fully work through the issues presented, but it looks promising. However I am unclear on what copyright formalities were needed before 1978 in the US and whether a formally published newspaper in Indonesia might actually meet them (there was a system of Indonesian registration). Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 19:11, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * To be public domain in the US it requires a) no compliance with US copyright laws at the time and b) public domainness (?) in the country of origin before the URAA in 1996. As noted in the explanatory note, at the time of the URAA Indonesia's copyright was 25 years after publication for photographs and as such were public domain at the time of the act. None of the newspapers I looked at had copyright notices, either with the copyright symbol or the words "hak cipta"; this was not in compliance with US copyright laws at the time. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:46, 19 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Support Comments: I only had a quick look. If you can cover off on the points below, I will come back and take another look.
 * General of the Army Raden Soedirman (Perfected Spelling: Sudirman; 24 January 1916 – 29 January 1950) was an Indonesian general during the Indonesian National Revolution." This slightly repetitious. Perhaps you could change the second instance of "general" to "high-ranking Indonesian military officer"?
 * Sounds good, changed
 * inconsistent English variation, for example "organisational" (British English) and "center" (US English);
 * Got "center" (one instance) and "program" (three instances). The automatic peer reviewer is showing "-ization", "meter" and "honor", but I think that's only in the code and in titles of articles.
 * inconsistent: "allied" and "Allied" --> IMO, it is a defacto proper noun, so it should probably be capitalised;
 * Done.
 * inconsistent: "commander-in-chief" and "commander in chief";
 * Done
 * slightly repetitious: "at a vote to decide the military's commander-in-chief in Yogyakarta, Sudirman was chosen over Oerip in a close vote" (vote and vote) --> perhaps replace the first instance with "election";
 * Done
 * "the infection led to his right lung being collapsed in November 1948" --> "the infection led to his right lung collapsing in November 1948";
 * Not done. This is a surgical procedure, and thus must indicate that it did not happen naturally. Per the tuberculosis article: ... the only treatment ... was surgical intervention, including the "pneumothorax technique", which involved collapsing an infected lung to "rest" it and allow tuberculous lesions to heal.
 * The procedure sounds awful/painful. No worries, I was reading it as if it was something that happened by itself. AustralianRupert (talk) 06:20, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "Greatly weakened by his guerrilla journey, Sudirman had a relapse of tuberculosis" --> what's a guerrilla journey? Do you mean "guerilla campaign"? Additionally, I think this could be tightened a little: "Sudirman had a relapse of tuberculosis" --> "Sudirman's tuberculosis relapsed";
 * Campaign, right. Trimmed. Although I prefer having the cause there, I must admit that I have a habit of writing bulky ledes.
 * "with flags flow at half " --> "flags flown"
 * Done.
 * "His guerrilla period has been credited with originating the army's esprit de corps" --> "His guerrilla campaign has been credited as establishing the army's esprit de corps";
 * Done.
 * the punctuation is off here: "graduating from Wirotomo.[19][20] as a leader, he was tasked" (the full strop before the citations should probably be replaced with a comma);
 * Changed to semi-colon and trimmed "as a leader" since this is implied through co-location.
 * same as above here: "become headmaster.[28] as headmaster, his..."
 * Changed "as headmaster" to "as a result", capitalising the "A".
 * "where the government were discussing a Dutch-issued " --> "where the government was discussing a Dutch-issued";
 * Done
 * "When Cokrosunaryo retired from his position chief in late 1916" --> what's a "position chief"?
 * Added "as"
 * the duplicate link checker tool reports a few examples of possibly overlinked terms: Central Java, Bogor, Kyai, Purbalingga;
 * Removed duplicate links for Central Java, Bogor, and Hajji. Purbalingga and Kyai I've kept because they are separated by at least 10k characters of text, which should be permissible
 * (note g), this seems like inconsistent presentation: "Sources differ on who closed the school, either the Dutch (Sardiman 2008, p. 108) or the Japanese [38]." (compare Sardiman 2008, p. 108 with [38]). AustralianRupert (talk) 11:14, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Got it. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:26, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I believe that's everything. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:40, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks good, I've read through the rest of the article now:
 * a little repetitious: "teacher at a Muhammadiyah-run elementary school after learning teaching techniques from his teachers at Wirotom" (teachers/teaching three times). I wonder if this could be reworded slightly to remove one of these;
 * Changed one to "training.
 * seems like a missing word here: "examples from lives of the prophets and traditional wayang stories" --> "examples from the lives of the prophets and traditional wayang stories";
 * Sounds good
 * "facilitating members' studies and activities, both religious and not". Would this work, "facilitating members' studies and activities, both religious and secular"?
 * Sounds good.
 * "the Dutch colonials" --> "the Dutch colonists"?
 * "Dutch colonial government", perhaps?
 * "When World War II broke out in Europe, the Dutch colonials – who had previously limited military training for native Indonesians – began teaching the populace how to deal with an air raid; it was expected that the Japanese, who had already made aggressive moves against mainland China, would try to invade the Indies." (I think it might make it a little smoother here to move the last part of the sentence closer to the start. For instance, perhaps: "When World War II broke out in Europe, it was expected that the Japanese, who had already made aggressive moves against mainland China, would try to invade the Indies. As a result, the Dutch colonists – who had previously limited military training for native Indonesians – began teaching the populace how to respond to air raids";
 * How's this?
 * "To ease the preparations" --> "To co-ordinate preparations"?
 * Sounds good.
 * this probably needs some commas: " In a meeting with the Japanese commander for the region Saburo Tamura" (before and after "Saburo Tamura");
 * Right, to parallel the Iwashige later on. Done
 * "Commander of Chief of the Armed Forces". Should this be "Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces"?
 * Dur, yeah.
 * "dividing Java under different military commands" --> "dividing Java into different military commands";
 * Done
 * "who had voted unanimously for Sudirman, swayed the vote in Sudirman's favour" --> "who had voted unanimously for Sudirman, swayed the vote in his favour";
 * Done
 * "This assault was responded with an air strike and tank movements, leading the Division to retreat" --> "This assault was met by air strikes and armour, which force the Division to retreat";
 * Done
 * "The allies, whose air" --> "The Allies, whose air";
 * Done
 * "brought Sudirman greater attention at a national scale" --> "brought Sudirman greater attention at a national level";
 * repetitious: "commander-in-chief of the expanded military,[74] after a reorganisation of the military" --> "commander-in-chief of the expanded military,[74] after its reorganisation";
 * Done
 * "funded and loyal to the various political parties" --> "funded by and loyal to the various political parties";
 * Done
 * "Meanwhile, Sjarifuddin began rationalisation efforts on the army, cutting back on the number of troops" --> "Meanwhile, Sjarifuddin began rationalising the army";
 * Done, but I kept the explanation "cutting back on the number of troops". I don't think everyone understands what rationalisation is.
 * "sent his Nasution to deal with the revolution" --> "sent Nasution to deal with the revolution";
 * Dur... Remnant of the old phrasing. Done
 * "in hope that it would stop the spread" --> "in hope that it would stop the spread of the disease";
 * Done.
 * "Although he continued to issued orders, Sudirman" --> "Although he continued to issue orders, Sudirman";
 * Dur, again. Done
 * "Sudirman received permission from Sukarno to join his men as guerrillas" --> "Sudirman received permission from Sukarno to join his men as a guerrilla";
 * Done.
 * "which he burned to avoid them falling into Dutch hands" --> "which he burned to prevent them falling into Dutch hands";
 * Done
 * "Aware that international opinion, which was beginning to condemnatory of Dutch actions in Indonesia" --> "Aware that international opinion, which was beginning to condemn Dutch actions in Indonesia";
 * Done.
 * "The discussion is may have resulted in the General Offensive of 1 March 1949" --> "The discussion may have resulted in the General Offensive of 1 March 1949";
 * Dur. Done.
 * is there a word missing here: "on 7 May 1949 Dutch–Indonesian resulted in the Roem-Royen Agreement" (Dutch–Indonesia what?);
 * "negotiations"
 * could you clarify what you mean here: "The convoy was facilitated by members of the 9th Brigade". Facilitated is a word that can mean many things in this context. Do you mean that they drove the vehicles, or they provided security, or something else? AustralianRupert (talk) 06:20, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Aided, eased... source doesn't give much more information. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:35, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * No worries. AustralianRupert (talk) 08:45, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Couple addressed, will do more later. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:27, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * How's this? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:35, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks good. I've added my support above. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 08:45, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:00, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Comments Support
 * No dab links (no action required).
 * External links check out (no action required).
 * Images lack Alt Text so you might consider adding it (suggestion only - not an ACR requirement).
 * Might as well do this now. Doing... — Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:55, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The Citation Check Tool reveals no errors with reference consolidation (no action required).
 * Images are all public domain or licensed and seem appropriate to the article.
 * The Earwig Tool reveals no issues with copyright violations (no action required).
 * The lead is quite long at 5 paragraphs. Per WP:LEAD it should contain a maximum of 4 paragraphs. Given the length of the article the number of words in the lead seems reasonable, the paragraphs probably just need to be reworked to reduce the 5 into 4.
 * Done. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:21, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I have reworked this a little further into 3 paragraphs, which I think are more balanced and cover the main periods of his life as presented in the article. Pls revert if you are not happy with the change. Anotherclown (talk) 05:00, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Inconsistent short citations between notes and references. You use a mix of styles including: Author (Year, Page) e.g. Anderson (2005, pp. 103–106) and Author Year, Page e.g. Sardiman 2008, pp. 126–127. The exact style is up to you but you need to be consistent (the second is arguably the most common though).
 * The mix is to allow readers to click the footnotes and go directly to the citation in question (i.e., either way from body to reference it's two clicks). This style is used in several FAs, including Albertus Soegijapranata and William S. Sadler — Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:55, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * No problem - I don't like the way FAC seems to make stuff up every now and then so I don't really bother with it but given that is ultimately where this article is headed it makes sense to conform. Anotherclown (talk) 04:47, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * This in the lead seems a little awkward: "Sudirman's command was made part of the Fifth Division on 20 October by interim commander-in-chief Oerip Soemohardjo; Sudirman was put in charge of the division." Perhaps consider something a little more simple like: "His command was made part of the Fifth Division on 20 October by interim commander-in-chief Oerip Soemohardjo, with Sudirman was put in charge of the division."
 * Changed — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:21, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * This is repetitive: "Sudirman's death was grieved throughout Indonesia, with flags flown at half mast throughout the country..." It might be more economical to consider something like: "Sudirman's death was grieved throughout Indonesia, with flags flown at half mast..."
 * Fair enough, changed. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:21, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * This is repetitive: "In his fifth year of school, Sudirman asked to leave his schooling...", perhaps reword?
 * Schooling --> studies. Okay? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:21, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes that is fine. Anotherclown (talk) 04:47, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * This is awkward: "A hard-working teacher despite poor pay, although he had no teacher's certificate within several years Sudirman had become headmaster." Perhaps consider: "A hard-working teacher despite poor pay, within several years Sudirman had become headmaster despite not having a teacher's certificate."
 * Sounds good. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:21, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "democratic leader for the school" → "democratic leader of the school..."
 * Just trimmed that last bit, implied by the fact that it was a fellow teacher. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:21, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes thats workable. Anotherclown (talk) 04:47, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * This is convoluted: "During this time Sudirman also continued to serve with Muhammadiyah, as a member of the Muhammadiyah Youth Group...", consider instead: "During this time Sudirman also continued to serve as a member of the Muhammadiyah Youth Group."
 * Is this a typo: "With the group he was known....?" Should it be: "With-in the group he was known..."
 * Within, yes. Changed. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:21, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "This brought numerous changes in the governance of the archipelago and reduced the quality of life for non-Japanese in the Indies." Given the brutality of the Japanese occupation this seems rather understated, if not euphemistic.
 * Agree, especially considering some of the details I expressed in Albertus Soegijapranata. However, as Sudirman doesn't seem to have suffered as much as most I am not sure how far to go here. How far do you think we should go in explaining the human rights violations? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:21, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * You're quite right that it shouldn't be covered in depth but I think maybe tweak the wording to make mention of it. Perhaps something like: "This brought numerous changes in the governance of the archipelago and reduced the quality of life for non-Japanese in the Indies, many of whom suffered from widespread human rights violations at the hands of the Japanese..." or something similar. Anotherclown (talk) 04:47, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Sounds good, added. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:55, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm unclear what link you are inferring here b/n Hiroshima and the Indonesia independence proclamation: "After the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in early August 1945, followed by the proclamation of Indonesian independence on 17 August." Could this be clarified?
 * Expanded. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:21, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes that is much clearer. Good work. Anotherclown (talk) 04:47, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I believe foreign words should be presented in italics per MOS:FOREIGN. Some seem to be and others arn't, is there a reason for this.
 * I have attempted to keep proper names in normal text (sources don't write Muhammadiyah, after all, but Muhammadiyah) but those with translations provided have been put in italics. Some of the less important original terms have been removed. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:52, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "offered to surrender the leadership position to Oerip", might work better as "offered to relinquish the leadership position to Oerip..."
 * Sounds good. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:21, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "once again with Lieutenant Colonel Isdiman in charge", should just be "once again with Isdiman in charge..." as ranks should be removed at second use following formal introduction per WP:SURNAME. There are instances of this including with Suharto and Sukarno so pls check these also.
 * Alright. Got Isdiman, Sukarno, and Suharto (the occurrences in the lede and image captions I've counted as separate, but in the body Suharto's rank is only listed once). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:21, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "were reluctant to subjugate to a central command", might work better as "were reluctant to be subordinated to a central command..."
 * Sounds more neutral, changed. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:21, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * this could be reworded: "but considered it his obligation to obey his orders", consider "but considered himself obliged to follow orders..."
 * Changed to "but considered himself obliged to obey." — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:21, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes that works. Anotherclown (talk) 04:47, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * this is repetitive: "consolidating the TKR with various laskar, funded by and loyal to the various political parties...", consider rewording.
 * Reordered. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:21, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks good. Anotherclown (talk) 04:47, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "using the code", or do you mean "slogan"?
 * No, I mean code (not a good one, to be sure, but it wasn't just propaganda). It essentially meant "follow the orders we worked out beforehand. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:21, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * No problem then. Anotherclown (talk) 04:47, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "would be best suitable for their needs" → "would be best suited for their needs..."
 * Dur, done. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:21, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "under the command of Captain Eekhout", is Eekhout's first name known? If so it should also be included per WP:SURNAME.
 * Will see, wasn't in the source I used. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:21, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * If the information doesn't exist then thats fine. Anotherclown (talk) 05:00, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * This is repetitive: "He then went to the Presidential Palace in central Yogyakarta, where the government was discussing a Dutch-issued ultimatum which stated that they were to accept Dutch rule or else the Dutch would storm the city proper." Use of "Dutch" three times in one sentence seems excessive. Consider a way of rewording.
 * Changed to "He then went to the Presidential Palace in central Yogyakarta, where the government was discussing an ultimatum which stated that they were to accept colonial rule or else the Dutch would storm the city proper.". How's that? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:21, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes that works. Anotherclown (talk) 04:47, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * If pilgrimage is going to be wikilinked it should be done so at first use (currently you have linked its second use in the article). Anotherclown (talk) 01:56, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Note that the second one is linked to ziyarat, which has a more specific meaning; the first one is in a general sense. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:21, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Happy with that. Anotherclown (talk) 04:47, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that's it, thanks for the review! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:55, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks good. Happy to support now, well done. Anotherclown (talk) 05:00, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. - Dank (push to talk)
 * "noble cast": noble caste - Dank (push to talk) 19:09, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:25, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "enroled": enrolled
 * Done. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:25, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "(hollandsch inlandsche school": (hollandsch inlandsche school)
 * Done. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:25, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "making the contingents from Cilacap attend Muhammadiyah conferences": maybe "insisting that ...."
 * Sure. Done. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:25, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "the group's women branch": the group's branch for women - Dank (push to talk) 21:36, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:25, 8 October 2012 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.