Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Yugoslav torpedo boat T2

Article promoted by Gog the Mild (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 10:20, 16 October 2020 (UTC) &laquo; Return to A-Class review list

Yugoslav torpedo boat T2
Instructions for nominators and reviewers
 * Nominator(s): 

This is the last of the dinky little Austro-Hungarian then Yugoslav 250t-class torpedo boats to land here for review. Her seven sisters are already FA or A-Class, so hopefully the preceding reviews have ironed out most of the wrinkles in this class. Had an interesting WWI, but didn't make it to WWII, so a little shorter than the articles on her sisters. See what you think? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:29, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Comments Support from Hog Farm
I'll review this soon. Hog Farm Bacon 20:04, 6 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Seems like the lead ought to include when it first entered Austro-Hungarian service
 * Sure, added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:55, 8 October 2020 (UTC)


 * "Due to inadequate funding, 77 T and the rest of the 250t class were essentially coastal vessels, despite the original intention that they would be used for "high seas" operations" - I'm assuming the implication is that because of funding issues, these had to be built lighter than intended, and couldn't handle the stouter conditions in the open seas. I feel like if the source allows directly stating, that the practical cause of why they were restricted to coastal service should be spelled out.
 * Unfortunately, O'Hara, Worth and Dickson aren't explicit in this respect, only saying "New "high seas" turbine boats were designed in 1910, but because of chronic underfunding, these 250-ton boats were more coastal than high-seas vessels". I'm not sure what I can add without engaging in OR. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:55, 8 October 2020 (UTC)


 * I'm wondering if maybe the characteristics in the infobox should be qualified with (as built), since the addition of the machine gun isn't in there.
 * The standard for ship infoboxes is "as built". Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:55, 8 October 2020 (UTC)


 * "At the outbreak of World War I, 77 T was part of the 1st Torpedo Group of the 3rd Torpedo Craft Division of the Austro-Hungarian 1st Torpedo Craft Flotilla" - Go ahead and provide the year, there's a sadly large number of people who don't know when WWI standard.
 * OK, scary, but ok. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:55, 8 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Link scout cruiser
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:55, 8 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Otranto Barrage is overlinked
 * Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:55, 8 October 2020 (UTC)


 * "On 23 September 1917, 77 T and another 250t-class boat were laying a minefield off Grado in the northern Adriatic when they had a brief encounter with a Royal Italian Navy (Italian: Regia Marina) MAS motor torpedo boat" - What exactly happened? Any shots fired?  Is the MAS boat's name known?
 * Unfortunately no other details are available on this incident, Cernuschi and O'Hara's work is in the form of a table with incidents and brief details, but no more. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:55, 8 October 2020 (UTC)


 * "77 T survived the war intact." - Go ahead and specify when the war ended.
 * Ok, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:55, 8 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Where was she stationed between the Szent Istvan incident and war's end? It just skips from the dreadnought being sunk in the middle of the ocean to 77 T back in Austria in 1920.
 * Presumably in Pola, where the A-H navy holed up until the end of the war. Added a sentence about the fact that the sinking of Szent Istvan really brought ops in the Adriatic to a halt. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:55, 8 October 2020 (UTC)


 * In the lead, link Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes?  It's a defunct nation not too well-known under that name
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:55, 8 October 2020 (UTC)


 * No need to link Dalmatia twice.
 * Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:55, 8 October 2020 (UTC)


 * " The ships and crews made a very good impression while visiting Malta" - To the Maltese, or someone else? Who in particular?
 * Presumably the British, the source is the British diplomatic diary. Added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:55, 8 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Did the Yugoslavs make an alterations?
 * None in sources, they tended to keep Austro-Hungarian guns etc, even the later Yugoslav-built ships used Škoda guns, probably because they were familiar with them. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:55, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Willing to discuss any of these, and retract if need be. Hog Farm Bacon 19:25, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * All done I reckon, . See what you think of my responses. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:55, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Comments Support from Indy beetle
The last of the Austro-to-Yugoslav torpedo boats through A-class review? My goodness PM, how long have you waited for this day :) ? My comments: -Indy beetle (talk) 05:34, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * this force included six of the eight T-group torpedo boats, so it is possible that one of these was 77 T. Does Halpern actually point out the vagueness of 77 T's potential participation in the battle? If not this is an OR violation engaging in speculation.
 * This is a good point. The reader can drawn their own conclusions. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:02, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * According to this article, Halpern gives the date of 77T's 1916 raid on the Otranto Barrage as 31 May/1 June. O'Hara concurs with this assessment and gives the name of the drifter sunk (here). This snippet of Warship International gives the date as 31 March/1 April, and also says that the report of one drifter sunk was an Austro-Hungarian claim that was not reflected in British sources. Do you know what the reason may be for this discrepancy?
 * Well, the Warship article is a bit old, and Lawrence Sondhaus (2017) also says it was 31 May/1 June and that one drifter was sunk . That is enough for me. Do you think I need to add Sondhaus? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:02, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, it seems the academic consensus is on 31 May/1 June. Whichever additional source can support that the drifter's name is Beneficient will do.
 * Done. Thanks again, . Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:34, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
 * under the terms of the previous year's Treaty of Saint-Germain-en-Laye by which rump Austria officially ended World War I. This could be rephrased, as it gives the impression that Austria single-handedly ended the war with its signing of the peace treaty. Perhaps "by which rump Austria officially ended its participation in World War I"?
 * Tweaked. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:02, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * This source says 77T was given to the Kingdom of Serbs et. al. for "police duties". I've seen the term "police duties" mentioned in other discussions of the distribution of Central Power ships to European countries in the post-war settlements. Does this mean they were to fulfill maritime patrol and custom duties as opposed to purely military ones? If this is a meaningful distinction, it should be added with the source to the article.
 * Given the age of the source, and the fact that I have not seen "police duties" used anywhere else with respect to these boats, I don't think so. In 1920, the boats hadn't been transferred and the Yugoslav navy hadn't even been established. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:02, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * In the "Interwar period" subsection, the acronym for the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, KSCS, seems superfluous since its never used again and thus should probably be excised. Also, the acronym introduced for the Yugoslav Navy is KM, but then the text refers to it as both the KM and the KJRM. This should be resolved for consistency.
 * Both fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:02, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It is not clear if T2 was one of the torpedo boats involved. Is this an observation Jarman makes directly? Similar to my first comment.
 * Removed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:02, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * In 1932, the British naval attaché reported that Yugoslav ships engaged in few exercises, manoeuvres or gunnery training due to reduced budgets. I see why this was included, but this is a very generic statement about the navy as a whole and not about T2.
 * Yes, but it goes to the lack of info available about the activities of the boat at the time. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:02, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * G'day, thanks for looking at this, I think I've got them all, but have a query about one. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:02, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm happy with the above responses, supporting. -Indy beetle (talk) 05:14, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Image and source reviews

 * Image review: pass, no issues; only image is freely licensed. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  09:28, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Source review—pass
 * Sources look to meet minimum standard for reliability.
 * Source check: Halpern 2015, p. 279 partly supports the content, I'll assume that the rest of it is in the other source (which I do not have access to). Did not check other sources as I do not have access to them.
 * I have a scan of the relevant page of Halpern 1987 and can provide it for verification, and also have copies of the books or scans of the other sources if needed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:26, 8 October 2020 (UTC)


 * According to this, the Jarman books were published by Cambridge Archive Editions, an imprint of Cambridge University Press. The article calls the publisher Archives Edition. Typo? (t &#183; c)  buidhe  09:28, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
 * That is what Worldcat says, but adjusted to reflect the above. Thanks for these reviews, buidhe! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:26, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Comments Support by CPA-5
Since this is a pretty short nomination I can have a small look into it.
 * Maybe add some important information from the "Background" and the "Description and construction" sections since this lead is a pretty small without them?
 * Added a bit and split lead. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * could sail from the Austro-Hungarian Navy (German: kaiserliche und königliche Kriegsmarine) Unlink German and where's the Hungerian translation?
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Link Austro-Hungarian Navy.
 * It is. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Stabilimento Tecnico Triestino (STT) of Triest --> "Stabilimento Tecnico Triestino (STT) of the city Triest"?
 * I think people can hover over the city link. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Ehm, I couldn't see whether or not Triest is a city or not by hovering it.
 * When I hover over it I get "Trieste is a city and a seaport in northeastern Italy". Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:27, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I sadly cannot if I use Opera but if I use Firefox or Google Chrome then it works but I still believe we should introduce it since you cannot hover a physical copy. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 08:58, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think that is IAW MOS:LINKCLARITY. Not sure what the reference to MOS:EGG is about. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:32, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * The T-group designation signified that they were built at Triest What's this T-group?
 * Clarified. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * They carried 18 tonnes (17.7 long tons) of coal and 24 tonnes (23.6 long tons) of fuel oil Could you reduce "tonnes" to just the unit's abbreviation "t"?
 * abbr=on done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * 980 nautical miles (1,810 km; 1,130 mi) at 16 knots (30 km/h; 18 mph) Second time knots is linked.
 * Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Now are km/h and mph linked same with the sentence "to a top speed of 28 kn (52 km/h; 32 mph)".
 * Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:27, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * but this was changed to two guns and four torpedo tubes before Still the same type 66 mm guns?
 * Clarified. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * order to standardise the armament with the following F-group What's the F-group and can you link it?
 * It is explained in the 250t-class article, but I have clarified a bit earlier. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * I see a lot of "77 T"s is it possible to reduce them to she, it or "the boat"?
 * Reduced. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * a permanent patrol of the Albanian coastline Link Albanian to the back-then-Albania article.
 * linked to Principality of Albania. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Orjen sank the drifter Beneficient, but once the alarm Which nationality was Beneficient?
 * British, added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * brief encounter with a Royal Italian Navy (Italian: Regia Marina) Unlink Italian.
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * By 1918, the Allies had strengthened their ongoing DUB link here.
 * No, it goes to Allies of WWI. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes it is look at this sentence "raided the Otranto Barrage, an Allied naval blockade of the Strait of Otranto" a couple of sentences above.
 * Ah, couldn't see it for looking. Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:27, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * the Austro-Hungarian Navy, Konteradmiral Miklós Horthy What's a Konteradmiral?
 * There is a link for it and it is Englishish, I don't think we need to provide a translation. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * During the night of 8 June 7/8 or 8/9 June?
 * Clarified. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * 3:15 am vs 03:15 - one should be standardised.
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * two Italian MAS boats, MAS 15 and MAS 21 Link for both ships?
 * I'm not sure every MAS boat is notable given they were 20-30t. MAS 15 maybe. I'll leave that to others. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * smoke from the Austrian ships You mean Austrian-Hungarian or were these ships specific of the Austria part?
 * Good pick up. Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * The Austro-Hungarian Empire sued for peace in November 1918 I don't know if it's me but this sounds a little bit odd.
 * Nations sue for peace. It's a thing. Google it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Not that, it's just the article before and the word "Empire" after Austro-Hungary which makes it a little bit odd to me but again could me? Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 08:39, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It isn't odd, . I could have gone with "Austria-Hungary sued for peace in November 1918" but there is no substantive difference and both are correct. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:47, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Again it could me so I'm not complaining. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 08:58, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * When the navy was formed, she and --> "When the Navy was formed, she and"?
 * OK. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Found this issue in these sentences too: "During the interwar period, T7 and the rest of the navy were involved" and "conducted off the Dalmatian coast, involving the majority of the navy".
 * Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:27, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * the submarines Hrabri and Nebojša, on a cruise to Malta Maybe tell the readers whether or not you are referring to the island of Malta or the Crown colony?
 * They were one and the same as the whole island was the colony, but clarified. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Technically it was an archipelago and the biggest island is also called Malta. But I know what you mean.
 * I don't think the distinction is enough to worry about, but now it says Crown Colony of Malta. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:27, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * In 1939, T2 was scrapped Why was she scrapped?
 * Presumably worn out, in the usual course of events. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Link "full load" and "shafts" in the infobox.
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Could you also tell me which sisters are they in the infobox's image?
 * 81 T Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * There are also small errors in the "References".
 * If you mean the deprecated ampersand field, fixed. Anything else? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

That's anything from me. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 14:55, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * All done, . Thanks for taking a look, and great to see you back reviewing. See if my responses have addressed your comments. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Hey PM, most are addressed and I have replied to your comments. Am happy to be back but since this, a short one I can have a review; nominations with more than 40,000 bytes are a little bit too long for me since I don't have that much of time. Anyway that's it I believe. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 08:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * All done, . Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:27, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Forgot a comment, sorry for that. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 08:39, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I think they all are addressed so there is no reason to not support it. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 23:54, 15 October 2020 (UTC)