Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Peer review/Submarine

Submarine
Submarine is a former featured article, but it has lost its status a few months ago. Since then I've made some major edits, mostly additions, to counter the problems stated in the FA removal. The context suggests this article deserves FA status, and I hope to improve it at least to the best of FA standarts. However, the views on required improvement can differ, and I'd like to get advice before making new major changes. The specific problems may be:


 * Length. The article is above average length, being about 67 kilobytes. In my personal opinion, this is justified by the subject being both highly technical and historical, and too complex to be covered in a short article. However, prior to further expansion, I'd appreciate comments on what sections might be removed or compressed, and how. Please don't suggest breaking it in subarticles; while there already are some, I'd prefer the subject to be mostly covered in a single article. I'd also appreciate opinions on whether increased length is justified.


 * Readability. While I tried to make the article well readable, I'm still not sure whether all sections can be understood by all readers. Anyone with a technical higher education should have no problems reading it, but there can be some hardships for people without it. Please read the article and note any sections or sentences that might be difficult to understand and should be explained.


 * Citations. My job is connected with design og submarines, and I wrote sections (in the first half of the article) mostly basing on first-hand knowledge, however inserting citations wherever I found some sources. There still may be a number of statements without sources stated, so any help with pointing them or, better, suggesting sources to mention, would improve the article.


 * Other concerns. The article might miss some important detail, be too technical, or have other problems. Please point whatever else could improve it, and just improve it if you have time. CP/Mcomm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 00:16, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

UberCryxic
Some observations:

1. The length should not be a problem if it stays in summary style and keeps the reader's attention. The main problem, however, is that there are 8 citations for a 67 KB-long article. That's unacceptable for FA. You need to get a lot more in; around 50 would be nice.

2. I notice that the book references are, with the exception of one, about specific events and wars. Do you have any books that strictly focus on the submarine as a weapon of war?

3. The following paragraph should be removed from the lead as it is not that important:

"It has been claimed that Nuclear powered submarines and other large submarines are sometimes classed as ships, but a discussion with a RN Commodore has revealed that "In the Navy submarines are always referred to as boats! Ships stay on the surface!". The term U-Boat is sometimes used for German submarines in English. This comes from the German word for submarine, 'U-Boot', itself an abbreviation for Unterseeboot ('undersea boat')."

4. The sections Military submarines, Major submarine incidents since 2000, and Submarine movies need to be expanded. It would actually be better if you got rid of the last two altogether...would help to reduce size. You could put those articles in the See also section.

5. The structure is a bit odd. The History section should be first. I'm also not certain about the inclusion of Women on submarines in the Life support section.

6. Some issue with prose, both from a "literary" and factual perspective. The following caught my attention:

-"Submarines, first widely used in World War I, are used by all major navies today, especially the American, Russian and British navies." The word "especially" is a bit odd; it should be replaced with "like" or "such as." I know, for example, that the French and German navies heavily use submarines as well.

-"Some firms who make diving gear but not parts for submarines, called their work "submarine engineering"." Needs a comma after "gear."

-The Submersion and navigation section needs a huge copyedit. It is also heavily technical, way too much for my liking (not that I'm a sub expert, but I know a little bit about them). Like what's "trim"? That's not explained.

That's all I can think of for now. Good luck!UberCryxic 23:02, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Grafikm_fr
Oh yes, the submarine article... Well, I think that before any twinking with prose and things like that, this article needs a big structural overhaul, as it is currently a gigantic mess (I see it was improved since the FAR but still...) Of course, an experienced reader knows all the prereqs, but not an average, let alone a basic one. When was the first submarine created? How does a submarine float? Who even had the great idea that a ship going underwater was needed? The information is there, but hidden, while it should go first (and if possible, have much less subsections). So, I think that section 8 should go up, possibly abbreviated and put into a child article, sections 1 & 2 merged into something like "uses of submarines" and sections 3 to 7 put down, preferably in a big section called "How submarine works" or something. I really think that is the prereq for the whole work.

The section on modern submarines needs some work too, with some examples of "turning point" designs (details about development of first nuc boats, the "Alfa" with its titanium hull. A paragraph or section on current developments would be nice too.

Of course, the lead should be modified accordingly.

I think this is really the main thing about this article, and it should IMHO be dealt with first. -- Grafikm  (AutoGRAF)  16:25, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the suggestion. There already is a subarticle for History section, so I'll just cut it down. However, I wonder if some kind of a partial rewrite with condensing text and focusing it on development would be better, with removal of some submarines and describing just milestones (this is for pre-WW1 history). I also think about splitting section 8 into just history of developments (and put it up) and application (about how many ships were sunk, how subs impacted WW 1-2, and how they are/were used in post-WW2 times). Any ideas on this? CP/Mcomm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 10:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)