Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/Peer review/Z. Marcas

Z. Marcas
I'm not sure whether this article is suitable for Featured Article Candidacy, but I daresay I've included nearly everything I can find about the story in 25+ books about Balzac. Thanks in advance for comments and thoughts! Scartol •  Tok  20:09, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Comments from Awadewit


 * Balzac found inspiration for the main character's name when he spotted it on a sign outside a tailor's shop in Paris. - This sentence doesn't flow well with the rest of the paragraph. I don't think it works well as an opening sentence, either - it is too specific.
 * Yeah, that wording was due in part to wrangling over DYK matters. Rephrased to: "Balzac was inspired to write the story after he spotted the name..." Scartol  •  Tok  20:10, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Much better. Awadewit (talk) 04:07, 25 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Although Z. Marcas features recurring characters and elements of literary realism – both hallmarks of Balzac's style – it is remembered primarily for its political themes. - This is slightly confusing, as we don't know what works the characters are recurring in at this point.
 * Okay, changed to: "...features characters reappearing from other Balzac stories..." Scartol  •  Tok  20:10, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Good. Awadewit (talk) 04:07, 25 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Balzac, a legitimist, believed that France was being ruined by mediocrity - What does being a legitimist have to do with the ruin by mediocrity? These two facts do not seem related.
 * Yeah, I didn't explain that well, did I? Changed to: "...believed that France's lack of bold leadership led to mediocrity and ruin..." Scartol  •  Tok  20:10, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * So much better! Awadewit (talk) 04:07, 25 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The story also explores Balzac's conviction that a person's name is a powerful indicator of his or her destiny, an idea he appreciated in the work of Laurence Sterne. - "appreciated" doesn't seem quite right - "an idea he drew from the work of Laurence Sterne"?
 * Yeah, better. Changed. I don't have the book before me just now, but I chose that wording originally because the source was kinda vague. But I believe "drew from" works. (And no, there is no direct connection to M. Shandy.) Scartol  •  Tok  20:10, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't believe it - that idea is central to Tristram Shandy. :) Awadewit (talk) 04:07, 25 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Although his views on politics were always changing, he decided in 1832 to attempt a run for the French Parliament. - Which house?
 * This isn't specified in the bio I was drawing from, but I'll check the others and see if I can nail it down. Scartol  •  Tok  20:10, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * A tiny bit of research shows that members of the upper house were appointed by the King, so it was obviously the Chamber of Deputies of France. Added. Scartol  •  Tok  22:06, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * he mounted a serious campaign which was met mostly with ridicule - From the people? The press? Both?
 * I get the impression the people weren't too keen on his candidacy, but the only actual sources are from the press, so I added that onto the end of the sentence. Scartol  •  Tok  20:10, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Determined to prove his point, Balzac launched a spirited search through the streets of Paris. He insisted to Gozlan that they would find a name suitable for a character he had imagined, a political genius thwarted by the mediocrity of the time. They finally came upon a sign for a tailor that enraptured Balzac, bearing the name Z. Marcas. He declared victory and chose the name for the protagonist of his story - Is there something about this name in French that adds to this story? Right now, it doesn't really make sense to me. Is the only explanation the one Balzac gives (in the Synopsis section)? I wonder if it would be better to place that explanation in the "Writing and publication" section.
 * I hear what you're saying, and I'm not completely opposed to this move. But the sense I get is that HdB's connection to the name was a bit amorphous and mystical at first, and he only later developed the deep meanings he explores (for about two pages) in the novel itself. So I structured the story of how the story came about, in part, to reflect that. (If it doesn't seem totally logical, that's okay, since I don't know that logic was what really drove him and Gozlan around Paris that day.) I'm curious to know how others feel about this point. Scartol  •  Tok  20:10, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Np - just wanted to let you know that at this point in the article I was a little puzzled. Awadewit (talk) 04:07, 25 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, re-reading it now, I got more concerned. Hopefully this addition helps: "He believed that the name "offrait à l'esprit je ne sais quoi de fatal" ("suggested some mysterious fatality"), and chose it for his story's protagonist." Scartol  •  Tok  12:30, 25 September 2009 (UTC)


 * whose identity is only scarcely revealed before the final pages - Something is off here.
 * Agreed. Changed to: "...about whom little is revealed before the final pages..." Scartol  •  Tok  20:10, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah. I can rest easy now. Awadewit (talk) 04:07, 25 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Marcas appears to have been born destined for greatness - Which one?
 * Not sure what the question is here. Do you mean political or artistic or historical greatness? If so, that's never really addressed; just that he's got the markings of someone who will achieve great memorable things. Scartol  •  Tok  20:10, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * "born" or "destined"? Awadewit (talk) 04:07, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, right. Changed to: "...appears destined for greatness..." Scartol  •  Tok  12:30, 25 September 2009 (UTC)


 * savvy knowledge of public manners - A bit awkward
 * Changed to "comprehensive knowledge". Scartol  •  Tok  20:22, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * "Savvy" is a nice word, but I agree that it doesn't really work there. Awadewit (talk) 04:07, 25 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Do any of the sources discuss Sterne's Tristam Shandy specifically, which is where Balzac got the name bit? It would be nice to add the name of the novel and perhaps something about Tristam.
 * Nope, my review of the sources doesn't bring anything to the surface about this. Scartol  •  Tok  12:30, 25 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The primary reference to Z. Marcas is for its reflection of Balzac's political views - "reference" sounds a bit awkward. The whole sentence is a bit convoluted.
 * Yes, agreed. Changed to: "Z. Marcas is best known for its reflection..." Scartol  •  Tok  12:30, 25 September 2009 (UTC)


 * File:BalzacZMarcas01.jpg - This either needs the death date of the author (to establish 70 years +) or the license needs to be changed to PD-1923.
 * Added birth and death dates (1843-1906). Scartol  •  Tok  19:56, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

As for FAC, I think the only section that may raise eyebrows is the "Legacy" section. It seems a little thin - you might have to answer questions about that. However, if there is no more material, there is no more! (It's nice to be reviewing Balzac again.) Awadewit (talk) 06:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It's nice to have you reviewing it. Thanks so much for this; I'll get to making the fixes soon. (Insomnia + 6 straight hours of classes every day = exhausted me!) Scartol  •  Tok  19:50, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * And I agree that Legacy is thin, but I just can't find nothin' else on it! I'm annoyed at how little I seem able to find about 20th century reception generally, especially since his international popularity didn't really boost up until Zola and James started raving about him in the late 19th. You'd think this book would have something, but noooooo! Scartol  •  Tok  19:56, 24 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Don't you hate when the title promises wonders that the book doesn't deliver? Awadewit (talk) 04:07, 25 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, just like when I spent $50 for How to Make Big Money Editing Wikipedia in Your Spare Time. What a ripoff! Thanks again for all the feedback. Scartol  •  Tok  12:30, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry it's taken me so long to review this article after the request. I'm transitioning between jobs the last couple of weeks, so things have been crazy busy. I've neglected all things WP these days. Anyway, I'm happy to review yet another Baal-zac article. I don't know how much more I can add after Awadewit's review, though. I will try very hard not to be repetitive.
 * Comments from Figureskatingfan/Christine

Very nice article, as usual, Scartol. It's enjoyable, fun to read, informative, and up to your normal high quality. I think that with some tweaks and additions, as A has recommended, and this could be another FAC for you. It's definitely GA-quality, and if I weren't your friend and were reviewing it at GAN, I'd pass it as is.


 * General note: I think that as I've pointed out in other Balzac articles, the prose tends to be a little flowery for an encyclopedia, which is a little of what A points out above. Scar, I remember that you say that this an influence of Balzac.  To be honest, I have no problem with flowery prose in lit articles, even here in the ole cyclo, but I had to at least mention it here.  You might want to go through the article and tone it down a bit, 'cause I'm sure others will have problems with it as it goes along.
 * I admit this readily, but I think in some ways it's just the way I write. (I wonder if the prose in Emma Goldman is less flowery? I can't judge very well myself anymore.) Regardless, I think it would be difficult for me to revise the prose, since I tend toward the florid style we see here. Although I can cut down and simplify other peoples' prose, I doubt I can do it for my own. Scartol  •  Tok  16:54, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * That's fine. Like I said, it's not a big deal to me.  I'm just jealous, 'cause I'm not just not a real flowery writer myself. --Christine (talk) 11:30, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Background. I'd like to see more information about Balzac's political views, since I know next to nothing about them.  I'm not sure any more than what you've described here is necessary, though.  I'll let you decide one way or the other.
 * Yeah, I added some info in the Background section. I wanted to avoid duplicating what would later appear in the "Politics and society" section, but I think it left the reader wondering what his politics were. Hopefully the added stuff helps. Scartol  •  Tok  16:54, 1 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I've said this before, but I just love the inclusion of French. I wonder, however, why some of Balzac's words are in French, and others are not.  For example, his quote about the state of French publishing (which is hilariously precious, I think) only includes the English translation.  Is there a reason for that?
 * The reason is that these excerpts are generally from critical and biographical texts that are written in English, without a French original. I'm sure it's confusing, but my only options are to find the original on my own (which would take forever), translate it myself and hope I hit the original wording, or remove the other original French bits (which is obviously out of the question!!). Alas! Scartol  •  Tok  16:54, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * No prob. Thanks for the explanation.  The question was more of a curiosity more than anything else, about your process. --Christine (talk) 11:34, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The synopsis seems a little short to me, and much of it is taken by the quotes. Is that because that's all there is to relate?  If so, again, I leave it to your discretion.
 * Yeah, it's only 30 pages, and a lot of that is going into detail about all the double-crossing and betrayal that happens (to other people as well as Marcas himself) within the government. I could expand it, but not meaningfully. =) Scartol  •  Tok  16:54, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Then leave it as is! I wonder, though, if you could mention at least elsewhere the book's length.  I suppose this is the one place where an infobox would be useful.  That doesn't mean you should add them; I'm fully aware of your feelings towards 'em.  But if you're gonna exclude them, perhaps you should include the information in the body of the article.  You do, except in this one area.  I'm being really picky, so if you ignore this suggestion, I wouldn't be offended too much. ;) --Christine (talk) 11:41, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * In addition to his distinctive name, Z. Marcas has a remarkable appearance which the students notice immediately. Remember that I am dense, please, when I admit that when I read the above sentence, I thought, "Huh?  Was Z. Marcas a professor?"  I even scrolled up to find the answer and then was reminded that "the students" were his neighbors.  Perhaps you need to clarify that for other dense ones.
 * I'm a firm believer that if something is unclear in a piece of writing, it's almost always the fault of the writer, not the reader. I changed it to "his neighbors". Hopefully "the students" makes sense in the other spots where it's used. Scartol  •  Tok  14:27, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * You used the Doyle quote again! Tee hee, I just love that.  One a personal note, I also love that Balzac used his characters over and over again.  It's so brilliant and rare in fiction.  Who else does that?  The only other writer that I in my limited knowledge base can think of is Madeline L'Engle.  On the low culture side of things, though, is TV soap operas, which use the same characters over decades, which is something that as a fan, I love about 'em.  But please excuse the rambling diversion.
 * I know some crime writers like Iain Banks use a recurring stable of characters, but they tend to be a kind of "main team", around which a different set of adventures takes place in each novel. Nothing close to the panoramic vision Balzac produced. (And never apologize for rambling diversions in peer reviews you write for me. I love 'em!) Scartol  •  Tok  14:27, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * As Graham Robb indicates in his 1994 biography, Balzac's words were an accurate prediction of the 1848 Revolution. Not just that, I would say. As I read the "Politics and society" section, I couldn't help but think of the youth in contemporary France, and all the riots they've had in recent years.  Has there been anything written about this parallel?
 * Not that I've seen. But I'll keep my eyes open. Scartol  •  Tok  14:27, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with A about the "Legacy" section. It may be the one thing that stops this from a successful FAC.  Although I wouldn't be surprised if you charmed its way through, anyway.  If I saw this article, I'd support its FAC, even with this discrepancy.  As my dear departed mother used to say, "You can't pull birds out of..."--well, I'm sure you can imagine the rest. ;)  I so agree about the making money from Wikipedia discussion above!  You'd think after the hundreds of dollars I've invested in Maya Angelou and Sesame Street books, I'd get compensated financially too.  Anyone wanna buy me the two books about The Show that are coming out for its 40th anniversary for Christmas?  Or even better, for my birthday coming up in three weeks! --Christine (talk) 04:56, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I can try going to the French texts, but even then I'm not sure I'll find much. Anyway, thanks for the careful attention to detail and I'll get to the rest of these points soon (probably later today). Cheers! Scartol  •  Tok  16:54, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I may be too late, but don't waste your time with the French. And you're welcome.  Good luck! --Christine (talk) 11:43, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I haven't had time, but I wouldn't mind someday tracking down some of the French texts, and trying to make sense of them. Thanks again for the review! Scartol  •  Tok  14:27, 2 October 2009 (UTC)