Wikipedia:WikiProject Numismatics/Sandbox/Succession/Archive 1

Archive of discussions relating to currency succession and succession boxes completed as of 19:55, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Types

 * 1) Plain redenomination 1 New Turkish lira = 1 million Old Turkish lira (2005)
 * 2) branch-off Malawi and Zambia created from Rhodesian pound, but Rhodesian pound continue to live Eritrean nakfa from Ethiopian birr 14 currencies from Russian rubles (1990's)
 * 3) split Czechoslovak koruna died and became Czech koruna and Slovak koruna (1993)
 * 4) merge 12 national currencies --> euro
 * 5) an existing one replaces another one Ecuador stopped using sucre and began using USD (2000) East Germany stopped using East German mark and began using (West) German mark
 * 6) a country gains independence but still uses the old currency for a while Botswana, Eritrea
 * 7) a country gains independence and choose to use a strong currency East Timor

Southern Rhodesian pound
Challanged: earliest banknote date 1939. Global Financial Data (Actually I don't trust that too much either): "When the Southern Rhodesia Currency Board was established on November 1, 1940, these banknotes [private bank issues] lost their legal tender status on March 1, 1942." Formatting under discussion. --Chochopk 14:52, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I got the dates from the existing article. I'm not sure how to figure out what's right. Ingrid 18:28, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Here's anohter source which shows banknotes from 1932.
 * I need to split Rhodesian pound into Southern Rhodesian pound, Rhodesia and Nyasaland pound, and leave some in Rhodesian pound.
 * I split the articles, and since I was splitting them, I put these boxes in. I used 1956 -- don't know where I got the 1953 date actually. The article said 1955. I guess it was from the formation of the federation. Any more discussion should probably happen on the articles' talk pages. I think we should clean this out, but didn't want to do it without checking with you first. Ingrid 03:11, 10 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Challange again: (please don't think I'm trying to give you a hard time). Your source includes a note issued by Standard Bank in 1932. The year 1932 never appears anywhere else in the text. I'll quote some important excerps from TABLES OF MODERN MONETARY HISTORY: AFRICA


 * So now the question is, do you want to consider private bank's issue as currency? It is the case for Hong Kong, for many years, and still counting. But one can also argue that these private issue in British Central Africa were really just British pound. But regardless, I think 1932 should be corrected to 1940. What came before that is open to discuss. The above table also confirms the 1956 date (instead of 1955 or 1953). --Chochopk 09:17, 10 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't feel attacked or anything. I'm seriously impressed with the amount of research you've done, and the sources you've found. All I've been trying to do is format the information I have (most of it from Wikipedia itself) in a nicer package. I wish I could spend more time helping with the research, but I already feel like I spend too much time online. I'll update the date to 1940. I don't know how you'd decide if it was the British pound or a local currency. Ingrid 01:08, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

succession box moved to Southern Rhodesian pound

I went ahead and changed Southern Rhodesian pound, and updated the succession box to show when the colonies became Rhodesia and Nyasaland (4 column table). I think this makes it more clear and correct. Please read it for me to make sure I didn't mess up the text (I tried to clean it up, but am not completely sure I understand the facts correctly). Ingrid 01:27, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


 * What about "at par" instead of "1 pound = 1 pound"? I also changed the text of Rhodesia and Nyasaland pound that "the new currency was created in 1956" I still have doubts whether we should use "1 new units = x old units" or the other way. But I have trouble finding people that are native English speaker and NOT a programmer --Chochopk 19:47, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I fixed at par. I can't even remember which side of the discussion I used to be on. I checked GFC (I don't know the exact link, but you can go here and select "GHOC Excel Worksheet" which is an excellent source by the way. They use new = old, and it looks fine to me. I think that was what you were suggesting we use, no? Whatever we end up with, we just need to be sure to be clear (if new and old have the same name, use "new" and "old" to make it clear). So, should we go ahead and use new = old? Ingrid 21:01, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I fixed more at par on the real articles, and apply new = old order. I think we should have a guide line about how to write the ratio. Obviously 2 dollars = 1 pound could be written as 1 dollars = £0.5, or 35 dollars = 17.5 pounds. Well, the last one if of course ridiculous. But the choice may not be too clear when you have 100 Saudi riyals = 106.5 rupees. Is it better to leave it like that? or 1 SR = 1.065 GR or 1000 SR = 1065 GR, or 200 SR = 213 GR? Let's formulate that. I will also move the candidate boxes for Malawian pound, Rhodesian dollar, etc to the real articles.


 * I think the best strategy is to pick a distinctive few points in the world and we don't have to wait until everything is done to push them out. Right now we have a former British colony group in Africa done. Perhaps we should give higher priority to at least one former French colony group, at least something in the South America, something in the greater China region, Europe, and the former Soviet Union, so that experts of those regions/former colony group will be aware of this, make changes as necessary, or even better, help creating boxes of neighboring countries, or even much better, import the idea of succession box to their languages. They don't have to be crazy, complex examples that we find here.


 * Yet again another excellent source (the excel file), although I still suspect the accuracy of GFD. I hate myself for not seeing that earlier. But now I have to go back to the existing example, and re check them with every source we have... sigh I wish I have 48 hours a day. --Chochopk 03:05, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


 * As you've probably noticed by now, I got the Rhodesia stuff done earlier (back to British pound, forward to present). I wonder if we should have separate variables for "ratio new" and "ratio old" or something similar. That way, editors would not have to remember, and if we ever decide to switch back, it'll be easy. That way there would be consistent spacing around the = too (not that that's very important, but I like consistency). How to write the denomination is a problem as far as consistency. I think we have to recommend "dollar", "pound", etc, since abbreviations don't necessarily exist for older currencies (we could copy what GFD uses, but that seems like thin ice as far as copyright; so does using ISO 4217 to me, but others don't seem concerned about that).


 * As far as what to do next, my first priority is replacing the existing succession boxes with the new format so that if anyone sees one, it'll be the right one. What I'd already done (roughly) is the last section of the Currencies of Africa template except for Madagascar, back from the euro, and forward from the Austro-Hungarian krone. I think I did something random in South America too -- I'll have to see if I can remember what. I'd also like to put these boxes into the appropriate articles, as soon as you think it's okay. After that, I agree that it's a good idea to pick a bit from everywhere although to try to do it in some organized way so we know what's been done and what's left -- for that, we might want to copy List of currencies over to a project page and cross entries off as they're done (or maybe that's too much effort). Ingrid 04:24, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Another item on my to do list is fixing CFA franc, so that will affect all the French African colonies. My source is GFD though, so if you don't think that's a good source, do you have something better? Ingrid 04:40, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


 * There are "TABLES OF MODERN MONETARY HISTORY". I include the links in the note section. I also use the Standard Catalog of World Paper Money. I recently bought the Standard Catalog of World Coins to aid me. Sometimes coins are issued first when a new currency comes out.
 * Is it possible to put dates (month/day/year) in the succession box? I think it would be useful when the inflation is too severe and there are more than 1 redenomination in a year (Yugoslavia, Hungary), or the redenomination is scheduled some time in the future (Mozambique)
 * Regarding "ratio new", "ratio old" variable, what if someone wants to put something like 1 (South) Yemeni dinar = 20 East African shillings = 1 British pound to indicate the relationship between the old, new, and some strong currency --Chochopk 12:39, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I am proposing something like


 * style="text-align: center;" rowspan="" colspan=""
 * Currency of 

–


 * This way, we can optionally add date, and disable link on the year to do something like circa. 1880 or "First quarter of 1700" --Chochopk 19:15, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


 * That sounds fine. Since these tables still aren't used much, maybe it would be better to just switch to not automatically linking the dates. I'm fine either way. Ingrid 00:58, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I just realize it's such an over kill to use variable like startNoLink. All we need to do is to put  around the ones we want to link. So revised:
 * style="text-align: center;" rowspan="" colspan=""
 * Currency of 

–

--Chochopk 01:24, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Again, that is dumb. I think all we need now is to remove the  around start and end of the 3 middle column templates. --Chochopk 02:06, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I took the brackets out around the dates in the template. I fixed everywhere that it's used except this page. My son (1 1/2) keeps "helping" me use the keyboard, so I don't want to tackle this page right now. I'll try to get to it in the next couple of days. Ingrid 04:09, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Rhodesia and Nyasaland pound
Facts verified. Formatting under discussion. --Chochopk 14:52, 7 January 2006 (UTC) I just realized that the earliest banknotes issued under the name of Bank of Rhodesia & Nyasaland is 1956. --Chochopk 04:15, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I got the dates from the existing article. I'm not sure how to figure out what's right. Ingrid 18:28, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
 * see above -- dates changed to 1956. Ingrid 03:11, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

succession box moved to Rhodesia and Nyasaland pound

Rhodesian pound
Facts verified. Formatting under discussion. --Chochopk 14:52, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

succession box moved to Rhodesian pound

Rhodesian dollar
succession box moved to Rhodesian dollar

Zimbabwean dollar
succession box moved to Zimbabwean dollar

East African shilling
Challange: This page implies that Yemeni dinar started in 1966, and the article of Yemeni dinar says 1964. I believe both are wrong, as GFD, TABLES OF MODERN MONETARY HISTORY: ASIA, and Standard Catalog of World Paper Money all indicate 1965. --Chochopk 04:56, 9 January 2006 (UTC) Challange: The reason for was the formation of Federation of South Arabia (perhaps also Protectorate of South Arabia?) --Chochopk 05:22, 9 January 2006 (UTC) Question: When was Somali shilling created? Challanged: Aden and East Africa Shilling GDF: British Indian currency was the official legal tender in Aden from 1839 to 1951, though British sterling, Iranian coins and Maria Theresa Thalers were used as well. GDF: On October 1, 1951, the East Africa Shilling (XEAS) replaced the Indian Rupee (in Aden) as the primary medium of exchange because India was no longer under British rule. TABLES OF MODERN MONETARY HISTORY: ASIA: 1839-30 September 1951: used Indian rupee Challanged: Zanzibar did not use East African shilling until 1/1/1936.
 * The article of Somali shilling: 1960
 * Somali somalo: The somalo was the currency of Italian Somaliland between 1950 and 1962. The somalo was replaced (along with the East African shilling being used in British Somaliland) by the Somali shilling at par.
 * GFD: The Somali Shilling/Scellino (SOS), divisible into 100 Centi, was introduced on July 1, 1960 at par with the East African Shilling.
 * Standard Catalog of World Paper Money: The first series was dated 1962
 * TABLES OF MODERN MONETARY HISTORY: AFRICA: "26 June 1961: The Somali shilling replaced the Somali somalo as the unit of account in Italian Somaliland. The name of the currency came from the UK shilling. Initially the change was just a change of name. Somalo notes continued to circulate until the first issue of Somali shilling notes was put into circulation on 15 December 1962 (Banca Nazionale Somala annual report 1962: 169)"
 * Note to self: (need more research)
 * British Somaliland (north) and Italian Somaliland (south) were pretty much independent of each other before WW2.
 * Italy captures British Somaliland in August 1940, and naturally issued the then currency of Italian Somaliland, Italian East Africa Lira.
 * U.K. took back British Somaliland and also Italian Somaliland in early 1941, and issued East African shilling in both places
 * British occupied Italian Somaliland was given back to Italy in Nov. 1949. And the Italians replaced EAS with Somali somalo.
 * Independence of Somaliland from Britain was proclaimed on June 26, 1960, and on July 1, 1960, unification of the British and ex-Italian Somali protectorates took place.
 * On July 1, 1960, Italian Somaliland was granted its independence. It immediately united with neighbouring British Somaliland (which had become independent on June 26) to form the Republic of Somalia


 * Fixed it, sort of (I used what you said above, and the GFD table).

Ingrid 00:38, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I used 1962 for British Somaliland. I don't know what's right.
 * Proposed guide line: if a currency of account or a vitual currency is created before the physical form is created, use the date of the physical. Another example is euro (1999/2002).
 * I added a lot of detail for Aden. Mostly, I got this from Wikipedia. I'm not sure about the date of formation of the Federation of South Arabia. Wiki says Jan 1963, and I've found some web sources that agree. GFD says 1962, and I've found other web sources that agree, specifying that the State of Aden (part of the Protectorate of Aden) joined the federation in Jan 1963 but the federation was formed Apr 1962. I tend to believe 1962 since there's a reason for 1963 to be a mistake. I'm hesitant to edit the Aden pages without a better source though. Aden is complicated, and I don't like saying "remainder of", but it's the best I think we can do.
 * I fixed up Tanzania, again. This time, I think it reflects the real situation.


 * Uganda gained inpendence on 9 October 1962
 * East African shilling is a currency of independent Kenya from 1963 to 1966
 * East African shilling is a currency of independent Uganda from 1962 to 1966
 * The political entity East Africa started shrinking when each subdivision gained their independence (Tanganyika in 1961) --Chochopk 14:06, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Taiwan yen
(This is where I grew up. It cannot be mistaken. So this proves that TABLES OF MODERN MONETARY HISTORY: ASIA could be wrong too. --Chochopk 05:48, 13 January 2006 (UTC)) You might be wondering why I use Month-Day sometimes, and Day-Month rest of the times. Some places prefer using American English over British English, some the other way around.

revised and moved

Old Taiwan dollar
moved

New Taiwan dollar
moved