Wikipedia:WikiProject Radio Stations/2020 infobox redesign proposal

This proposal contemplates a redesign of Template:Infobox radio station and Template:Infobox broadcast, two infoboxes that share many fields but are specialized for radio and television stations. Sammi Brie (t • c) 05:19, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Why?
These two infoboxes, with 21,600 and 3,600 transclusions respectively, describe similar—yet distinct—items and share about 20 fields common to both radio and television stations. However, they have differing capabilities:


 * Infobox broadcast allows for the insertion of a logo and an image (see Wowow), but only Infobox radio station provides for an image caption despite offering one image field.
 * Infobox radio station has described TemplateData, making it more intuitive to use with VisualEditor; Infobox broadcast does not.
 * Infobox broadcast provides for the automatic provision of FCC license information data for stations in the United States. It is now possible to do the same in radio as all full-service (read: non-LPFM) radio stations must maintain FCC public files.
 * Infobox radio station has several fields that are not as useful in the US, such as former_names and network, but which aid in writing articles elsewhere.

Other reasons for a design change:


 * The display order of fields is radically different between the two. The Owner field is eighth in Infobox broadcast but 24th in order in Infobox radio station.
 * Eight fields that appear identical have different parameter names. For instance, website in Infobox radio station is homepage in Infobox broadcast. In one case, haat and HAAT are not the same!
 * The design of Infobox broadcast as it pertains to the FCC license data causes stations with headers mentioning they are satellites of other stations to screw up the infobox a bit, like KFVE. above is implemented for the first time in either of these boxes to provide a field to label semi- and full satellites for TV and simulcasts in radio.
 * These templates contain quite a lot of information (some 25 different fields), and headers like the ones I use in this proposal help organize the information thematically for the reader's benefit. This is very loosely done without headers by Infobox broadcast and to an even lesser extent by Infobox radio station. Many other infoboxes, such as Infobox hospital, employ headers.

The proposed redesigns have most of the same parameters in the same order as each other and using the same field names for those they share. As part of the change, some parameters relevant to both but only available in one are being brought to the other template for the first time, like subchannels to radio and former_names and repeater to television. This also supports efforts to internationalize these templates to permit better use on articles not covering the United States.

Outside of specific differences, such as frequency vs. channel, minor differences do remain, particularly with the location/country fields of Infobox broadcast that don't quite align with those of Infobox radio station and would need manual editing to change completely. The aim is that implementation requires, at most, a bot to edit transclusions to fix field names.

Where can I see examples?
The templates are at User:Sammi Brie/Infobox radio station revamp and User:Sammi Brie/Infobox broadcast revamp.

I've been working with on this project. He has prepared a series of examples covering common radio use cases in the US and beyond. You can see them at User:Nathan Obral/Infobox experiment/Example.

I have a few television examples at User:Sammi Brie/Infobox broadcast revamp/Example. These focus on some of the most common TV uses.

Each example shows off a different capability of the templates, including several that are being introduced in this proposal.

So?
I'd like your feedback on the redesign and other changes. If you feel additional parameters would be useful in these templates, especially if you write articles on radio or TV stations outside the US (particularly in the countries that use this TV template regularly, such as Japan, the Philippines and Australia), please chime in. Sammi Brie (t • c) 05:19, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Both IBs have needed a current redesign for a long time, so consider this a tentative Support. One thing that has continued to annoy me though is TV stations with multiple networks (like WDJT-TV), where we can't use the clean station_logo/logo_size "xxxpx" markup and have to continue to code it the old and awkward way with horizontal lines and line breaks (the former which I never liked but somehow became our standard for deviation); I know a rare few radio stations with the same issue. Is there a way we can have a logo_1/logo_size logo_2/logo_size etc. type of markup where it's coded nice and cleanly and we can still reduce the size of subchannel/HD Radio sub images? I admit I did work in the past to add the former_channel_numbers designator before the digital transition, so I'd love to see something much more organized and mobile-web ready than what we have.  Nate  • ( chatter ) 05:55, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately it appears that Infobox only supports two images cleanly. I honestly question whether we need images of diginets in the first place, unless they have a Big 4 affiliation or it's something like KFVE in which it's a "dual-satellite". Sammi Brie (t • c) 05:59, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Further, I'll add that if you need two images, the image parameter could conceivably be pressed into service. Infobox broadcast supports two images like that, as at Wowow. Infobox radio station does not, but would after this update. Sammi Brie (t • c) 06:01, 4 July 2020 (UTC)


 * I support both IB redesigns and agree with it's been needed for a long time. BlueboyLINY (talk) 07:58, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I support the redesigns. The headers, labeling simulcasts, repeaters, and semi-satellites are helpful, as are the headers organizing the information, and the addition of the subchannel field to Infobox radio station is long overdue.--Tdl1060 (talk) 09:09, 4 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Please have the infoboxes set a default short description (with noreplace). Maybe something like " radio station in GhostInTheMachine talk to me 09:14, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I've added to the templates. I note that Infobox radio station has never had a  field; should one be added to assist with SDs? Sammi Brie (t • c) 16:14, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * If the template is worldwide, then adding the country is good. For example: BBC Radio York there are rather a lot of Yorks.   Any thoughts? &mdash; GhostInTheMachine talk to me 17:39, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * In general, I'd be cautious about adding another parameter just to use in short descriptions, but in this case, I do think a country parameter could be useful to disambiguate the location within the infobox proper. However, the infobox is likely to be in use in many articles that won't have a country set, so you'll have to be doubly sure that your code handles the absence of the parameter cleanly. --RexxS (talk) 18:08, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The problem I'm running into is that these two templates have different fields for location parameters. Infobox broadcast has "location", "country", and "city" (of license). The "location" is typically the media market where the city of license may be different, e.g. KONG (TV). Infobox radio station has "city" and "area", but no country field, so when the COL is more specific than a media market, the behavior is a little different, e.g. KZON. I don't know how to unify this behavior without editing almost all the articles using one or the other. Sammi Brie (t • c) 18:59, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * [Phase 1] Add country to the template, but if the country is not defined then set the SD based on only the city/area. This should probably be good enough long-term, but if not ...[Phase 2] Scan for non-US stations and over time add a specific country value. Use a bot to set the country to US for the rest? Adjust the template to use the country to add it to the SD. This then allows for not linking off City for non-US stations.Can you tell how many of the uses are for US vs. non-US stations? &mdash; GhostInTheMachine talk to me 22:21, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Not right now (unless it is possible to determine how many transclusions of an infobox use a given parameter or are in articles with certain categories) but they are most certainly the majority. It is possible to determine, though, that an article is in the US if it has a set facility_id as that is only assigned in the United States. Implementation of these changes requires a bot to edit transclusions anyway, so it could always add US if the other field is set. Sammi Brie (t • c) 23:15, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Best to go with the SD that you have now. If, in the future they can be improved then make further changes later. — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 21:42, 12 July 2020 (UTC)


 * I support the redesigns! I especially like the separation of ownership, technical parameters, etc. User:Rudy2alan (talk)
 * I support the redesigns. Love the organization the new infoboxes. --DrChuck68 (talk) 17:48, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * From what I've seen here, I really like it! Even the TV ones are good too (I typically work on radio).  These are good!  VERY Awesome work User:Nathan Obral and User:Sammi Brie.  I support these redesigns wholeheartedly! -  Neutralhomer  •  Talk  • 21:38 on July 4, 2020 (UTC) •  #StayAtHome • #BlackLivesMatter
 * Support. The "Licensee" should stand out like in the current design (no parentheses). Mvcg66b3r (talk) 18:05, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * This is one place where the radio and television templates currently differ. I personally prefer the design used by the radio template and think listing them separately is a bit redundant given the typical legalese status of a licensee ("Phoenix FCC License Sub", etc.). Sammi Brie (t • c) 18:49, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The "Licensee" field should be left blank if it's the same name as the owner. Mvcg66b3r (talk) 19:02, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The case I'm describing is for things like "Hubbard Radio (Phoenix FCC License Sub, LLC)" or "Sinclair Broadcast Group (KGBT Licensee, LLC)". I think that belongs as one label, not two. Sammi Brie (t • c) 19:10, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree with you, it belongs as one label, not two. Also you mentioned the locattion= being the studio location for both radio and tv. With the fcc removal of the local studio requirement, would it make more sense to put the transmitter location in that field rather than the studio location? IE WFTY-DT their studios are located in New Jersey, out of range of thier ota signal. Its sister sister station WQBU-FM shares studio location and is also not receivable ota at the studios. Thank you for your work. BlueboyLINY (talk) 21:52, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Right now, the radio and TV templates have different handling of location, and the drafts keep this because it would require manual edits to bring them in line.
 * In Infobox radio station, there are city and area parameters. The city is the city of license, and the area is the media market or coverage area of the station. This is adaptable to a wide range of articles, including national stations (BBC Radio 2: London; United Kingdom) and rimshots (KOAI: Sun City West, Arizona; Phoenix metropolitan area).
 * In Infobox broadcast, there are parameters for city (of license), location, and country. Practice has developed with this template in the United States that the "location" field is like a hybrid of the city and area fields (KPPX-TV: Tolleson/Phoenix, Arizona). Other countries are not consistent and use "location" like the area field from radio. For instance, Fuji TV has "Kantō Region, Japan"; NBN Television has "Northern New South Wales & Gold Coast".
 * You might see why it would take editing one template's transclusions to get them to match the style of the other. Sammi Brie (t • c) 01:24, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Support. Seems well-thought-out.  Might want to rename the TV one, since "broadcast" includes radio.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:53, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The title of "Infobox broadcast" really should be "Infobox television station"—it'd make the purpose a lot easier to understand!—but I don't want to bundle that with this discussion. When the changes go live I'll open a TFD to move the template. Sammi Brie (t • c) 04:01, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Infobox television station already redirects to Infobox broadcast. I think it was renamed back in 2008. &mdash; GhostInTheMachine talk to me 08:32, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Seems to have been a redirect, not a move. Sammi Brie (t • c) 16:41, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Don't need TfD for a rename, just RM (or for something this obvious and non-controversial, a WP:RMTR speedy request – or ping me when the time comes and I can do a round-robin move to reverse the page:redirect relationship).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:27, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Support: The redesigns are more organized, making them easier for viewers to understand. I'd agree with Mvcg66b3r that the "licensee" should be left without a parenthesis, but it should be italicized to avoid confusion with the owner since they belong as one label. ASTIG😎  (ICE T • ICE CUBE) 06:33, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I also set some examples at User:Superastig/Station Articles, focusing on Philippine radio stations. ASTIG😎  (ICE T • ICE CUBE) 08:32, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback you've given me. I've now added the power parameter to TV in order to support TV station articles in the Philippines that state TPO and ERP. Sammi Brie (t • c) 16:41, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * No, do not italicize the licensee. That's not a MOS:ITALICS-sanctioned use of italics. Wikiprojects are not in a position to go around willy-nilly making up new typographic "conventions" for categories of things (see WP:CONLEVEL).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:27, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * If that's the case, then it should be left parenthesized, but its font size should be smaller. ASTIG😎  (ICE T • ICE CUBE) 03:00, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * We did that too,, but MOS:SMALLFONT is a problem too. You can't use small font in something like an infobox where the base font size is already smaller. I actually had small font excised from the licensee field in radio for this reason alone last year. Sammi Brie (t • c) 03:20, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I still prefer that, though. But, if that's the case, I'll just let the licensee preference be. ASTIG😎  (ICE T • ICE CUBE)
 * Dear Sammi Brie, I certainly appreciate you contacting me regarding your proposed modifications. However, you are certainly the expert and you've put a lot of time into thinking about the project, and therefore I will go along with what ever is eventually decided by you and your other contributors. Regards, Albert Isaacs (talk) 06:52, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Support: Thank you for the consultation, I am coming at this from United Kingdom articles, with the Radio Station changes the mock up look fine so have no issues with that. As regards to the Broadcasting Infobox it doesn't really have any baring on any United Kingdom articles as they all use Infobox television channel instead and I think for the time being that is more appropriate as most of the fields are different. Mark999 (talk) 17:27, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that template isn't really designed for use in Europe, and Infobox television channel is the right call. Thanks for your feedback. Sammi Brie (t • c) 17:31, 7 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Suggestion: After thinking this over, I really think the "Licensing authority" field should be done away with. If I understood Sammi Brie correctly in his post directly above this one, this is primarily a North American template.  As such, any US station is licensed by the FCC, any Canadian station is licensed by the CRTC, and any Mexican station is licensed by the IFT.  This is a given and there isn't a secondary licensing authority out there for any of this countries.  So, it's really a field that is kinda pointless and taking up valuable space within the template's "coding".  Just a suggestion from me. -  Neutralhomer  •  Talk  • 21:10 on July 10, 2020 (UTC) •  #StayAtHome • #BlackLivesMatter
 * If we did that, there would be no links to the FCC info. Mvcg66b3r (talk) 22:30, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Sure there would. That's one of the MAIN sources one must add is the link to the license.  What this "Licensing authority" field does is just link to the Federal Communications Commission (FCC), Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission (CRTC), and Federal Telecommunications Institute (IFT) pages here on Wikipedia.  It doesn't link to the station's individual licenses.  Now that would be sweet if it did that. :) -  Neutralhomer  •  Talk  • 22:35 on July 10, 2020 (UTC) •  #StayAtHome • #BlackLivesMatter
 * that parameter being set to FCC triggers the links to appear for FCC public file and LMS information, as it currently does on Infobox broadcast. There is the option to have it trigger other systems, but that hasn't been built out and most countries don't have official pages that would interface well with such a thing. Sammi Brie (t • c) 22:50, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Now that I didn't know. The way it looks, it's just a link to the Wikipedia page.  I would, though, link to full named page instead of the redirect (ie: instead of FCC link to Federal Communications Commission).  That's just makes it look neater, less messy, a little tip I picked up from a featured article writer. :) -  Neutralhomer  •  Talk  • 01:03 on July 11, 2020 (UTC) •  #StayAtHome • #BlackLivesMatter
 * In fact, FCC is the preferred input for that field according to the code in Infobox broadcast. Sammi Brie (t • c) 01:12, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected...at least here. -  Neutralhomer •  Talk  • 01:21 on July 11, 2020 (UTC) •  #StayAtHome • #BlackLivesMatter
 * To alleviate confusion, I'll modify the input to FCC on my infobox examples (it's set at FCC currently). If there was a way to call up similar public files from the CRTC and IFT, that might be an option worth pursuing. Nathan Obral (talk) 03:45, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I can tell you right now that the IFT files are not very useful. You'd have to add the IFT concession key and a field for it. I have a template for it at IFT but haven't found much use for it yet. Also there's no way to link to CPCREL (technical information) from a call sign. I've been doing enough work with Canada articles that I can say there's no similar file. Sammi Brie (t • c) 03:56, 11 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Neither of these are an official CRTC site, but The Canadian Communications Foundation has a history on each and every radio station within Canada. For example, here is the history for CIDG-FM in Ottawa.  Now this includes moves from one community license to another, CRTC updates, changes in power, changes in ownership, changes in frquency, even changes in format are sometimes noted.  Also, when a station is signed off (which is easier by the CRTC then the FCC) a reason is sometimes given.  It's a good source of information.


 * Another good source and a highly reliable site (I use it even in US articles) and it's used in place of CRTC info, in the "External Links" section on all Canadian stations (TV and Radio), and that's REC. REC is just Radio and Television Station information out the ying yang.  It's what they do and they do it well.  They have it for the UK, Mexico, Ireland, and other countries as well (so that might be helpful).  Here is the REC link for CIDG-FM.  This might be an alternative for IFT, CRTC, and other groups information. :)


 * REC gets their information via a schedule per that country's release of that information. It's automatic.  Information is released, it's uploaded into REC.  For FCC info, they get updated applications and such as their system scans the FCC system every 20 minutes.  It really is an amazing tool.  But...due to the country-by-country schedule of release of information, REC can only show what they have.


 * The information on REC is updated on a schedule: FCC/US, it's daily (usually about 4a or 5a EDT). CRTC/Canada, it's Weekly, on Saturdays (also early mornings, Eastern Time).  For IFT/Mexico, their last update was 02/17/2020.  OFCOM/The UK, 01/13/2020.  ACMA/Australia, it's daily as well (of course, by time zone, and by our time zones here).  MIC/Japan, their last update was, ironically, 02/17/2020 as well.  ComReg/Ireland, is the slowest, they haven't updated since 2014.  That's just the way they are.


 * I love REC Networks and pretty much every radio article I write in multiple countries starts with a visit to FCCdata to get the right info. Just not sure if that belongs in the infobox. Sammi Brie (t • c) 22:58, 11 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Some don't know about them, so I let EVERYONE know. :) I was thinking more along the lines of linking to the official information (CRTC or IFT file) and using REC for a secondary source since they basically have everything else.  Also, for Canadian stations, using Canadian Communications Foundation for information as well.  REC and CCF wouldn't be the "official" link, but a secondary. -  Neutralhomer  •  Talk  • 23:31 on July 11, 2020 (UTC) •  #StayAtHome • #BlackLivesMatter


 * Support. I like the look and feel and the consistency between the two is great. Suggestion: For the radio one, one possible thought would be to break out frequency for Analog and Digital (and maybe RDS/RBDS). Looking at the examples, you're having to plug all the possible permutations separately into the frequency field, manually adding (or not) line breaks. The way the broadcast infox handles analog/digital/virtual channels is slicker. Carter (talk) 18:35, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Looking at this some more (and trying it out), I do like it, but the subchannels and frequencies bother me some. For HD subchannels, it'd be nice to show the branding and the format as separate fields, maybe have them as subcarrier1 and subcarrier-format1, etc.? For the facility ID, for the Scottish station I mocked up, I plugged in the Ofcom license number, but that doesn't line up with the "facility ID" wikilink. Carter (talk) 21:05, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi, let me answer a couple of your concerns:
 * I'd resisted putting RDS as a field in the infobox because I didn't know there was a citable source for it for these UK stations, but turns out it's in the data that mirrors like FCCdata have. There's now an rds parameter.
 * I'm unsure if digital radio works with that treatment because it'd require some special treatment and editing of syntax in every infobox.
 * I'd recommend not using the Facility ID field unless there's a facility with Ofcom where you can plug it into a URL and get a link to a public file. If there is, I'll build capability to recognize it. There *is* for US stations, so that's why it exists. I see that Ofcom have a list page.
 * Hopefully these address your questions. Sammi Brie (t • c) 00:23, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I appreciate all the work you're putting into this. Carter (talk) 02:13, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Category:Pages using infobox radio station with unknown parameters is now flooded
The changes to the template have caused the unknown parameters category to balloon from single-digits to over 5000 articles over night. After checking a few, I suspect the old infobox allowed a final pipe before the closing double-bracket to fail silently whereas the new infobox does not (see which removed the article from the category). If a bot hasn't gone through and fixed whatever else was planned yet, this should be added to the list.
 * Is this related to the "show blank positional" issue in the module? Nice catch, . You should probably be able to revert the last edit to get these articles out of the category. Sammi Brie (t • c) 17:22, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * This flooding was caused by an undiscussed change by that added articles to the category when they have unsupported parameters that are blank. Normally, we ignore unsupported parameters unless they have a value. Adding blank parameters to the error category makes it challenging to fix the errors that include values. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:59, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Having clean infobox makes it easier to edit as you have less need to figure out how to handle syntax. See for example infobox that have pipes at the end. It also makes it easier to catch errors, when sometimes "empty parameters" are a result of a bad edit. All these are valid reasons to fix them instead of keeping garbage around forever. --Gonnym (talk) 21:50, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Is this something a bot can fix? If we're not gonna have a bot fix the initial (currently) 5122 problem articles, turning this on doesn't accomplish anything as the "garbage" still remains around forever and it also cripples the usefulness of the category. JPG-GR (talk) 22:51, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * PrimeBOT is already slated to run on the articles later this week to remove a set of deprecated parameters that are empty in many pages. The original request is still at User talk:Primefac; you might want to ask them. Sammi Brie (t • c) 22:55, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Next steps
has asked at WP:VPT for help with completing this implementation. I am willing to help. Let's start with Infobox radio station. I have added the relevant pages to my watchlist. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:38, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
 * First, I don't see a link to this discussion from Template talk:Infobox radio station; there should be one.
 * I believe that the next step is to copy the "revamp" template code into Infobox radio station/sandbox.
 * Make sure that the sandbox template supports all current template parameters.
 * The next step is to create some test cases at Template:Infobox radio station/testcases to demonstrate that all of the old parameters and new parameters work as intended.
 * If some existing parameters are being deprecated, we may want to add a check for them; I can help with that, and has offered to convert and remove parameters in transclusions as needed.
 * Don't worry about changing the live template's documentation page yet.


 * Thanks for stepping up! A few things I forgot to say at 1:15am my time last night:
 * There are test cases galore of the revamp, since I've been using it for a number of pages in mainspace (especially, the radio template since I used it to clear a backlog of articles without infoboxes, and as part of continued testing). In userspace, you will also find User:Tcr25/Infobox experiment/Example, User:Nathan Obral/Infobox experiment/Example.
 * The templates currently live at User:Sammi Brie/Infobox radio station revamp and User:Sammi Brie/Infobox broadcast revamp. Transclusions to these specific pages can be changed to the template space titles when the code goes live in template space.
 * Both user pages have TemplateData and documentation updates in their doc pages.
 * For a list of changed parameters, see User:Sammi Brie/Infobox radio station revamp/Guide.
 * I've also added a please see linking here to the infobox talk pages, though when I opened this discussion I notified the relevant projects: Radio Stations, TV stations task force, and Infoboxes. Thank you so much, Sammi Brie (t • c) 17:37, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Pinging . Sammi Brie (t • c) 17:37, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
 * That's progress. We need side-by-side test cases on the testcases page. It's the easiest way to see if existing transclusions will be broken by the proposed new code. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:39, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Here are a few currently in-use versions of the "new" infobox: KVWC (AM), KVWC-FM, WBIB (AM), WFAT (AM), WJR, WGFA-FM, and WLS (AM). Basically choose any other radio station page, those are your pages that don't have the "new" infobox. :) -  Neutralhomer  •  Talk  • 20:19 on August 1, 2020 (UTC) •  #WearAMask • #BlackLivesMatter
 * Almost any parameter that has changed names is not currently supported by these templates without editing the present code. (Exception: image and image_size on radio station.) Sammi Brie (t • c) 23:01, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
 * P.S. To add to the list above, here are some pages in article space that use specific parameters and features that are new or novel: Magic 1278 (name and callsign which actually works but was undocumented on the old version), Goldbeat (former names), WNNT-FM (founder). For Infobox broadcast, there are far fewer article space transclusions, though Canal 8 UCV TV is significant because it has a caption on the logo.


 * I'm assuming User:Sammi Brie/Infobox radio station revamp and User:Nathan Obral/Infobox experiment/Example, will be moved to the "Documentation" section of Template:Infobox radio station when everything is checked, double checked, and approved? Because these are good examples. -  Neutralhomer  •  Talk  • 20:11 on August 1, 2020 (UTC) •  #WearAMask • #BlackLivesMatter
 * The documentation pages are those at User:Sammi Brie/Infobox radio station revamp/doc and User:Sammi Brie/Infobox broadcast revamp/doc, though there will probably be additional notices pointing to the guide and maybe more fully fleshed out example pages. These pages also contain full TemplateData for both templates, so when they are moved into template space, VisualEditor will have no trouble working with this template. Sammi Brie (t • c) 23:01, 1 August 2020 (UTC)


 * (Unrelated to the post above): Just an idea out of my brain: But could a bot put in the updated Infobox radio station to each page (once everyone has checked to make sure there aren't any bugs)? -  Neutralhomer •  Talk  • 20:07 on August 1, 2020 (UTC) •  #WearAMask • #BlackLivesMatter


 * The infobox will update automatically when the code is moved to Infobox radio station, and then the bot will be required to update parameters. So when this is updated in template space, all transclusions will be changed. It will then be up to individual transclusions to be updated to use its new features (e.g. the above field and RDS field for UK stations). If a radio station isn't using a parameter that no longer exists under that name—and in all honesty, there's only one for radio (not the case in TV) that is pressing—it could be converted without editing. (While I want to replace image with logo to reflect the most common use of the top, the bare minimum of Infobox radio station articles that need edits are the ones using last airdate which is now last_airdate with underscore, a total of 523 pages according to the July template parameters report.) (Also see my reply to your documentation question.) Sammi Brie (t • c) 23:01, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Test cases, and the basic steps
This conversation seems to have gone a bit sideways. I have put the proposed new code in the template sandbox and added a test case. That case shows that the existing supported parameter last airdate, which is used in 500+ articles, is not supported by the sandbox template. As part of the transition from the existing template to the new template, we need to support all existing parameters, even those that are being changed. The basic steps look like this: Skipping any of these steps will break existing transclusions, which is undesirable. Please update the sandbox so that it supports all existing parameters. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:00, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) Replace the current template with an updated one that continues to support all existing parameters.
 * 2) Get a bot to update all of the transclusions so that deprecated parameters, i.e. those being replaced, are replaced with updated parameters.
 * 3) Change the template and documentation to remove support for the replaced parameters.
 * I just updated this (and the broadcast revamp) to support all existing parameter names as aliases. Sammi Brie (t • c) 02:17, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I am going on a two-day wikibreak soon. It might help to provide at least one test case that uses all of the current and new parameters, even with fake values. I can help when I return. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:53, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Done. Unfortunately it does not want to accept the image field, which seems to be a limitation of the testcase generator. As a note, both templates should be ready for the next step. Sammi Brie (t • c) 05:05, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Want to get the ball rolling on this? (Appreciate all the wikignoming you do! :) ) Sammi Brie (t • c) 04:49, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅. I removed the commented code at the top. Let me know if you notice anything that still needs improvement, or better yet, make the fix yourself in the sandbox, and I'll take a look. One note: Is this new code supposed to generate a short description when the article does not have a local short description template? It does not appear to be doing so at BBC Radio Oxford. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:16, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * BBC Radio Oxford has a short description of "Radio station in Oxford" via the Type in location module in the infobox. — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 14:55, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Can confirm. Short description gadget shows short description correctly. I have replaced the documentation with that located at User:Sammi Brie/Infobox radio station revamp/doc. As this includes an updated TemplateData, can I get a null edit? Sammi Brie (t • c) 16:45, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * My mistake. I must have failed to purge BBC Radio Oxford. It looks fine to me now. I also gave the template a null edit just now. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:39, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Sweet. Can we do Infobox broadcast now? There's documentation for it as well with updated TemplateData, fyi, so make sure to bring that over as I can't do null edits. Then we can move on to bot-directed fixes. Sammi Brie (t • c) 20:11, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, let's do it. I have updated the sandbox with your code, with a couple of minor modifications that you can see in the sandbox history. It looks reasonable, but please create a test case that uses all of the parameters. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:10, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Just created an all-parameter test case at Template:Infobox broadcast/testcases. Again, the logo parameter is a bit finicky, but that's the testcase as it works live (see Canal 8 UCV TV for logo and logo caption working correctly). Sammi Brie (t • c) 05:43, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I have moved the template code. Please check and update the documentation. I will do a null edit of the template after the documentation has been updated. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:15, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Done. Sammi Brie (t • c) 16:42, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * OK, I think we're all set. The next step is to contact the bot operator with a list of parameters to remove, and what to replace them with. After the bot's work is done, we can remove the old parameters. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:17, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Sounds good, will get Primefac on the task. I'm likely to going to have some more infobox cleanup elsewhere to propose soon, by the way. Thanks for all your help on this, . Sammi Brie (t • c) 18:13, 9 August 2020 (UTC)