Wikipedia:WikiProject Russia/Russia-related Wikipedia notice board/Archive03

Current events
This section is to archive Russian-related articles linked from the Main page as part of Current events section.


 * Andrei Illarionov, an adviser to Russian President Vladimir Putin quits, saying Russia is "no longer free". (Washington Post) 27 December 2005 (Tuesday)


 * Russia-Ukraine gas dispute: Countries across Europe report reductions in gas supplies after Russia disconnected supplies to Ukraine yesterday. Russia accuses Ukraine of stealing 100 million cubic metres of gas yesterday from pipelines transiting the country; Ukraine denies this but has previously claimed the right to 15% of the gas as a transit toll. Hungary reports supplies are down by 40%, France and Italy by 30%, and Poland by 14%. Germany, Russia's principal customer, also reports reductions. Russian supplier Gazprom says that it will increase supplies and return them to normal by Tuesday night. (Sky News) 2 January 2006 (Monday)

Missing category about Russia
I stumbled upon the article about the film The Battle of Russia and found that there is no category to put it in. What do you think about the introduction something like Category:Depictions of Russia, Category:Works about Russia, Category:Works of art of Russia? Any better ideas? `'mikka (t) 05:47, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Russian Winter
After some edit warring, it has been suggested that Russian Winter should be merged with Military history of the Soviet Union. Please comment on Talk:Russian Winter. --Ghirla -трёп- 08:44, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Siege of Saragossa (1809)
Some guy persistantly likens the Spanish siege to Battle of Stalingrad. I suggested the comparison with Battle of Borodino or Siege of Sevastopol (1854) might be more appropriate but he reverts. Comments required. --Ghirla -трёп- 11:19, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

People's Artists of Russia/People's Artists of the RSFSR
We have Category:People's Artists of Russia and Category:People's Artists of the RSFSR can we somehow merge them? abakharev 23:09, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Let's merge Category:People's Artists of the RSFSR into Category:People's Artists of Russia and post the former cat for deletion. --Ghirla -трёп- 06:21, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Make sure that PA of RSFSR is automatically converted to PA of R. `'mikka (t) 07:22, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
 * AFAIC, the title is the same in all but the name of the country. --Ghirla -трёп- 07:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Merge is done abakharev 08:13, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks. --Ghirla -трёп- 11:19, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Winter War: Outcome?
There is a discussion on Talk:Winter War as to what was the outcome of that conflict. The article is routinely subjected to POV attacks such as the following additions: "Sentimental Finnish veterans frequently boast that for every one Finnish soldier who died, ten Soviets lost their lives in the Winter War" or "As a result of both arrogance and incompetence, the Soviets also failed to achieve a decisive superiority at the start of the war" (instead of "The Soviets failed to take advantage of their numerical superiority at the start of the war"). Please add the article to your watchlist. --Ghirla -трёп- 11:19, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Russian girl scouts
Please voice your opinion about an unusual and IMO ridiculous insistence on the transliterated article title Rossiskaya Assotsiatsia Devochek-Skautov instead of normal translation Russian Association of Girl Scouts. I am not even mentioning that the transliteraiton is with typo and altogether nonstandard. `'mikka (t) 23:43, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

List of Colonial Territories by country
I just spotted this list and don't know what to make of it. It lists among Russian colonies, past and present, such territories as Belarus, Romania, Vienna, Vladivostok, Kuril Islands, Sakhalin, Amur, Kaliningrad, etc, etc. Do you think it's all right? --Ghirla -трёп- 13:51, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Move at Talk:Sambia
May be of interest to you.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:07, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Edit war on Vorkuta
An edit war has erupted over Vorkuta. It has now resulted in the locking of the page from editing. Please discuss the issues at Talk:Vorkuta. -- Petri Krohn 08:17, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

How to categorize Battle of Konigsberg and Battle of Budapest?
Today, I looked into Category:Soviet-German War... Gosh! Most articles here have major categorization problems. We have Category:Battles of Russia and Category:Battles of the Soviet Union but it is impossible to descend from them to most battle articles in that Category:Soviet-German War. Should we start something like Category:Battles of the Soviet-German War? --Ghirla -трёп- 13:58, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * To complicate matters, Category:Red Army Operations during World War II already exists but it is underpopulated. And what about Wehrmacht operation? I can't make anything out of this. --Ghirla -трёп- 14:01, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

The scope of Category:Russian people
Please join the discussion at Category talk:Russian people about whether the category should include ethnic Russians and Soviet people. Conscious 04:36, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Russian Ground Forces
Russian Ground Forces is listed at Requests for Expansion, so please expand. KNewman 07:38, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Categorisation by User:Jcaragonv
Please have a look at User:Jcaragonv, who has created a bunch of categories like Category:Greek-Russians, Category:Polish Russians, Category:Belarusian Russians, Category:German Russians or Category:French-Russians, and appears to be populating them more or less randomly. --Nikai 21:44, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Should be posted for deletion. KNewman 07:10, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Why? We have Category:Russian-Americans why not Category:American-Russians? abakharev 07:23, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The major difference is that Category:Russian-Americans can be defined rather accurately, being confined to Russia geographically. All those freshly created categories however are subcategories of a diffuse Category:Russian people by ethnic or national origin, so subcategories may either relate to ethnicity or nationality. Ethnic categories tend to be quite problematic. To provide a simple example, if you want to offend me call me an ethnic German. ;) --Nikai 11:55, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, it is fair. Supporting this cat we are asking for the rever wars. Was Dostoevsky a Belarusian-Russian or Polish-Russian or just Russian-Russian? Was Akhmatova - Tatar-Russian, etc. abakharev 00:42, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Vladimir Khodov is a nice example too - I mean the terrorist, not the mayor ... ;>)User:Pan_Gerwazy--pgp 16:18, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Now all of them are listed for deletion at Categories_for_deletion. --Nikai 22:01, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Mayakovskoye
I tried my best to get some Nazi sting out of this. Problem: most of what I find in Google was indeed right wing German stuff - which did contain interesting points, however (like how the Red Army was only there for four hours, and a refugee convoy was nearby). Could anyone who is better at Russian and knows or finds some extra Russian material, please contribute? Oh, and is there anyone here who knows Esperanto - I do not know that lingo, but just looking at the names and figures is enough to tell you that it may not be Nazified, but needs some update to conform to what most modern German (!) commentators think. I can deal with the Dutch version. Ogromnoe spasibo! User:Pan_Gerwazy--pgp 16:18, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Prostitution in Russia
I made some initial cleanup of the stupid article "Tochka" (most probably written basing on a paparazzi article) and moved it to a proper title. Does anyone else want to do something there? `'mikka (t) 21:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Yerofey Khabarov
Someone with an interest in Siberian history, please check into the whereabouts of Yerofey Khabarov in the late 1650s, and to any mention in Russian records of a conflict with Qing/Joseon forces in 1659. Thanks! -- Visviva 01:13, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Mayakovskoye again
Well, one anonymous contributor branded the text as nationalist Polish and Russian propaganda. And Philp Baird Shearer User_talk:Philip_Baird_Shearer is not helping with his reference problem. If anyone wants to help: please no Polish-Russian wars.User_talk:Pan_Gerwazy--pgp 20:04, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Russian names in other languages. Strange evolution. Or not?
Just noticed when having a look at "my" Dutch version of Maya Plisetskaya that someone made a Polish stub "Maja Plisecka". No problem with "c", but the "ka" instead of "kaya" does not look to me like mere transliteration. Of course, it is the Polish Wikipedia - so Russian (or English or Dutch) speakers have nothing to do with that - but some people may want to take note of this strange phenomenon. []

There is more - after I and Kuban Kazak changed Ludmilla Tourischeva (note the two "ll"s in Ludmilla) into Lyudmila Turishcheva, it was changed back in two stages. The point is of course that many googles give Turischeva, and so split the "u" vote ( there are slightly fewer googles for Turischeva than for Tourischeva). Note by the way [] that "Turishcheva" was even deleted from the list of alternative names in the article! And of course, I noticed that someone already changed the reference to her in the Grozny article...

And then there is [|Vinokurov], who is called Winokurov in the German Wikipedia (correct transliteration) and Vinokoerov in Dutch Wikipedia (correct transliteration). Even the Polish version seems OK. But in the English one he is called Vinokourov. Next step "Vinocourov", perhaps? I am not really a party to this, but I cannot help noticing that Vinokurov redirects to ... []User_talk:Pan_Gerwazy

Avvakum
In connection with this edit, I need a third opinion on whether Avvakum was executed for heresy or not. It seems to me that he was burnt exactly for that, irrelevant of our current ideas of whether he was a heretic or not. Please voice your opinions on Talk:Avvakum. -- Ghirla -трёп-  16:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Finnish toponyms
Historical nomenclature again... I don't think we have to write "Königsberg (Kaliningrad)" in Wikipedia, as long as we have redirects here. The Finnish editors think otherwise. They insist that the Swedish names of Finnish towns (e.g., Helsingfors) should be accompanied by their modern Finnish versions (e.g., Helsiniki), even in historic contexts, such as Russo-Swedish War, 1741-1743. This attitude has led to an outbreak of revert warring. Please voice your opinions on Talk:Finnish War. -- Ghirla -трёп-  17:28, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Chechnya
Someone added a pargraph about Samashki to this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chechnya&diff=next&oldid=55467156 Problems: Samashki never had anything like 65,000 inhabitants. It is a village and had 15,000 inhabitants at the time (that I found in another source). The source of "Neutralaccounting" called it a town, Neutralaccounting switched it to a city... The date given in Wikipedia is also wrong (which is rather annoying as now the source is saying in Februari 1996 what "happened" in April 1996). I could change that myself, but I notice that because the guy does not even want to refer to the Russian version of the shooting of the elders, his text suggests that the Russian soldiers killed the elders at close range while they were approaching the troops - which is not "exactly" what Memorial and Kovalyov said really happened: "according to reports by village elders and by the Samashki village mullah, on April 7, when a group of elders, together with the mullah (eight people in all), returned to the village after negotiations with the Russian command, the two cars they were riding in were shot at by small arms fire. While there were bullet holes in the cars, fortunately no one was injured, with the exception of elder Ajalil Salikhov, whose finger was slightly wounded. The shots were fired from Russian troop positions." [] So what to do - I am afraid that if I simply delete, all hell will break loose.User_talk:Pan_Gerwazy--pgp 02:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Whoever looked at it in the past five days, probably noticed that Samashki is gone from the Chechnya article. Kocoum deleted the entire passage - I suppose he thought the info in the the Checnya article was redundant with the info in the articles on the 1st and 2nd Chechen War - Samashki is in the 1st War article without Neutralaccounting's story. I will now have to watch whether someone puts that story there. It does mean that my remark on the Chechnya talk page is now superfluous. By the way, I noticed that Kocoum also deleted the reference to the violent takeover by Dudaev and the fenestration of Vitali Kutsenko. I am not relly sure that that should disappear - actually the passage was a mess, because it did not mention that all this (even Yandarbiev proclaiming jihad) happened while there was still a Soviet Union... Well, you have to look in Google's cache to find all that. []

User_talk:Pan_Gerwazy--pgp 15:14, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I am trying to copy edit The Second Chechan War. I need some ideas on how to pare it down and tighten it up. I realize that this is an ongoing war, but the points get lost in all that detail. Is there someone who can help me out on this? KarenAnn 23:36, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

WWII casualties
I was reading VOV article and noticed a figure of total losses in Eastern Front as 25-30mln. As far as i remember estimated Soviet losses lays between 27 and 44 mln. So does it mean, that this figure does not include nazi civilian and millitary losses from USSR? Or does this figure is only millitary losses on both sides? Elk Salmon 11:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

History of Russian culture
History of Russian culture pomatrosili i brosili. Neglected completely. `'mikka (t) 05:26, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Not an easy stuff to write about :). Extremely time-consuming, but has to be done. KNewman 07:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Leshchenko
This is new. I needed some time to elaborate on this (using Dutch and French material I have at home) and then to write an article on Serdce/Serdtse. Now believe it or not - User:Cmapm wants to change and move this to Leschenko. This looks like a repeat of the revert war over Lyudmila Turishcheva. I suppose it was nutty of me to reply on the talk page there. Nevertheless: anyone who thinks that name should be Ukrainized (instead of Frenchified)?

That the name of the singer should be Leshchenko in ENGLISH (whatever the name may be in French or German - my Dutch version wil say Pjotr Lesjtsjenko) is obvious to me. I note that before Cmarm intervened, IN TEMPORE NON SUSPECTO (as they say in law courts) there were two references in English Wikipedia to Pyotr Leschenko (i.e. Roma music and Alla Bayanova), six to Pyotr Leshchenko and none at all to Petr Leschenko, cmarm's proposal.

By the way, I notice that there is a Jolly Fellows article, which does not mention Serdce/Serdtse as yet. So - perhaps the question will arise soon: which version to use "scholarly" serdce or BGN/PCGN "serdtse"? It is not a family name. I would personally opt for "serdtse", however.

Anyone who will support me in a possible new revert war? User_talk:Pan_Gerwazy--pgp 08:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Moving frenzy
Apart from Dmitry of Suzdal affair, I noticed that Vyacheslav Ivanov was moved to Vyacheslav Ivanov (poet) and Stepan Apraksin was moved by Halibutt to Stepan Fedorovich Apraksin, for no apparent reason. Please share your thoughts weather the new names are appropriate (e.g., why Fedorovich not Fyodorovich)? -- Ghirla -трёп-  13:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Wait, what's our policy on patronymics in titles? - CrazyRussian talk/email 13:49, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe patronymics should be used to distinguish the guys with identical first names. What we need to decide is whether the spelling of ё is proper. -- Ghirla -трёп-  14:12, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I explained the reason at at least two talk pages, so the above comment by Ghirlandajo is quite misleading. While I believe patronymics are not always necessary (just like middle names in Western culture and first surnames in the Hispanic world), at times they come in handy in cases like this, where two guys (a father and a son, BTW) share the same name and surname. Stepan Fedorovich Apraksin and Stepan Stepanovich Apraksin seem a more natural choice than, say, Stepan Apraksin (1702-1758) and Stepan Apraksin (1747-1827).  // Halibutt 12:42, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Novodevichy Cemetery
I just finished a major expansion of the Novodevichy Cemetery. I say we need a category for people buried there. Perhaps for other cemetries as well. Mhym 06:02, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Category:Russian books
Category:Russian books. Please consider the useness of this category and how to populate it. Compare it with "sibling" categories. I think it is useful at least for for historical books. Modern books better be classified according to genres (novels, books in history, etc.) `'mikka (t) 23:56, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Jagello
Your history also had its continuous links with the ruler whose naming discussion has a new approval poll, to discuss the matter of how to name the article currently at Władysław II Jagiełło. Interested editors are invited to participate, at Talk:Władysław II Jagiełło. Shilkanni 20:27, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Carnildo and copyrights

 * User:Carnildo launched a campaign to delete images from Sabantuy, viz, Image:Eltsinsabantuy.gif, Image:Putinsabantuy.jpg, and Image:Putinsaban.jpg. it's not clear to me why he doesn't delete similarly tagged images from Angela Merkel or Lech Kaczyński. Copyright savvy guys, please help defend the pictures. -- Ghirla -трёп-  09:30, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately http://www.ogoniok.com/copyrights/ explicitely forbids usage without permission, specifically mentioning photos. `'mikka (t) 00:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, then we should find a non-ogonyok version, see here for details. -- Ghirla -трёп-  07:43, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Geographical coordinates
It seems that placing the coors at the top of the page is now standard. See here, for example. I upgraded Red Square and St Basil's Cathedral but there are many other articles with coordinates in the text. We need volunteers to update the Russian articles to the new standard. -- Ghirla -трёп-  10:53, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Anti-tank dog
This article brings shame to the wikipedia there is a lot of speculation "tank-mounted flame-throwers to ward off the dogs"?, "forcing the retreat of an entire Soviet division"? - we all know what the NKVD did to deserters. I have been unable to find aby good English or Polish reference sources for this article. I have heard that the Anti-tank dogs were really a bluff since the concept was a total failure, but they were praised by soviet propaganda in order to fool the Axis and Western militaries into developing their own Anti-tank dogs and counter-Anti-tank dog tactics. Perhaps you could help? Mieciu K 18:46, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Russian templates vandalism
Some jealous non-Soviet and non-Russian speaking guys have deleted some very popular humorous template about political parties -- User:Xoloz/UBX/User Zhirinovsky. The template was used by quite a significant number of users (specifically, compared to other boring political templates all across the board), and being deleted for more than a month, it is still being linked from quite some user pages (9), where other political templates are linked by a very few number of people (usually no more than 5). Я не очень знаком со здешними правилами, пожалуйста, может кто-нибудь с этим разобраться? Я пока добавил данную статью в Deletion review/Log/2006 July 1. Спасибо. MureninC 11:47, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The reason given by the deleting admin in the deletion summary is that it failed T2 - which is "The template is redundant to another better-designed template". So maybe there is a newer version somewhere?--Konstable 12:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I've created three templates back in the day: CPRF, LDPR and LDPR:Zhirinovsky. Zhirinovsky template, if I remember correctly, said "This user finds Vladimir Zhirinovsky quite entertaining". :) Obviously, this template was very popular, and still being deleted for about a month, it seems to be more popular than all other Russian political templates all together. Thanks for your explanation, I hope that this template could be restored soon. MureninC 22:55, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Jotuner's controversial edits of Moscow
Somebody, named Joturner just came to Moscow artcle and started editing it fully for his own. Additionally he started additing many ridiculous references and citation needed boxes. Like for fact that Napolenic army was stopped because of no food and cold or for about same for WWII. Also he protecting many references that going to bad online translators and to small known sites and newspapers, that making article looks like childish job, instead of good seriously look. Elk Salmon 16:44, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. Please revert or modify it. --GoOdCoNtEnT 21:28, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * tell him here please Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2006-07-05_Moscow. Elk Salmon 07:43, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I did not start to edit the article fully for [my] own. Anyone can work on any article, and I would appreciate it if you didn't express the sentiment that only Russian-language sources are reliable. It's not my article indeed, but it doesn't belong to only Russians either. In this revision, you removed a source from the New York Public Library, two sources from The Moscow Times, one source from the official site for Sheremetyevo International Airport (which is in Russian), three sources from three different universities, one source from the Moscow Tourist Information Center, and one source from a Russian journal. These are most certainly reliable sources. And contrary to what you appear to believe, articles that look less childish (and more professional) have references. Just take a look at any featured article. joturn e r 13:01, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Dacha

 * Please look at the lack of neutrality and factuality in the dacha article. The article is very biased to overestimate the poverty and underestimate the quality of life in Russia. Some of the facts about the dacha are also not factual or are poorly written. It should be corrected as soon as possble. --GoOdCoNtEnT 21:28, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * ROTFLMAO. `'mikka (t) 07:08, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I'm not getting what's so funny?&mdash;Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 15:20, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Me neither... -- Grafikm  (AutoGRAF)  19:53, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Take a look into things user:tjoturner is questioning in Talk:Dacha. I find it funny that they find everyday russian life unbelievable. `'mikka (t) 21:14, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Indeed, quite sad to see that. For me it was buses not trains though... :) -- Grafikm  (AutoGRAF)  21:24, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

User: Kurt Leyman
This guy, overjoyed at the absence of his shadow Deng, systematically changes "Nazi Germany" to Germany when referring to the Nazi occupation of Russia during WWII (example). He refuses to discuss the problem on talk and is eager for revert warring. Please intervene. -- Ghirla -трёп-  16:23, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Administrative terminology about Moscow city
There is a mismatch in terminology in ru:Административное деление Москвы and Administrative divisions of Moscow articles. in terms of choice of words "administrative/municipal" and "district/okrug/raion". Moskali, please make an order (in the whole category:Administrative divisions of Moscow). `'mikka (t)
 * 1) "Moskali" is a colloqual name for russians in Ukraine ("Hohland").
 * 2) Moscow citizans are "moskovites" (москвичи)
 * 3) What's wrong with Administrative divisions of Moscow? There are no direct match for "okrug" or "raion" in english (or too much of them)
 * --jno 07:17, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * mikka, it's not very good posting such low insults. moskali is very insulting word, and i'm sure you know it. Elk Salmon 21:27, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Related discussion
Hey, there is a discussion (and poll) going down at Talk:Georgia (country), as this is historically and geographically related, we'd appreciate your input. - FrancisTyers · 11:50, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Beslan victim list
If somebody will help transliterate the names of the victims, killed and survivors, of the Beslan massacre, we'll make a sub-page like there are for the terror attacks 9/11 (New York) and 7/7 (London). I know it's a big work, but there's something about putting on names and ages that will help to make it more real and not just another statistics. The names are here: http://www.beslan.ru/mainlist.html

7/7 list: 9/11 list: Rune X2 13:01, 13 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Casulties_of_the_Beslan_school_hostage_crisis Rune X2 11:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Help
Hello. Can someone please transliterate list of places listed at Lovozero Tundras. Thank you. - Darwinek 13:06, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * done --jno 11:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much ;) - Darwinek 16:45, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Hero City template
Should we create a template listing the Hero Cities? -- Ghirla -трёп-  12:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Why not? It'd be a useful one.&mdash;Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 15:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Then go ahead (I don't edit Soviet topics). -- Ghirla -трёп-  15:14, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Crap, how is it always that I make an innocent comment and end up with more work? :) No problem, though; I'll take care of it.&mdash;Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:32, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Help. Copyright of the Beslan video
The terrorists of the Beslan school massacre, recorded a video of their exploits. I have taken a screenshot therefrom and uploaded to wikipedia:commons. Now I get trouble by people saying its a copyright violation. I'd say the recording belong to the Russian state which has released it to the public, but others claim the terrorists owns it. Are there some Russian copyright law that can be used here? Rune X2 12:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Anyway, russian law will not help you much. It's an "international" issue. God damn the &copy;. --jno 14:54, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Basically, there's no way you can store it on Commons. Upload it here as fair use, and don't forget to provide a rationale. Max S em 14:55, 25 July 2006 (UTC)