Wikipedia:WikiProject Ships/Peer review/HMS Graph (P715)

HMS Graph (P715)
Article for the captured U-boat U-570 (HMS Graph). It's clearly no longer a start class article as most substantial facts about its career have now been covered. But I'm sure it still needs work to smooth out unnoticed mistakes. Catsmeat (talk) 10:13, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Brad101
What exactly are your goals for this article? If I were going to rate the article this minute, it wouldn't meet B-class as the lead section is too short. There are also missing citations on several paragraphs. If those two issues are dealt with then it will pass B-class. --Brad (talk) 22:20, 13 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I guess my objective is to take it to B, then see how it goes. To be honest, I think there are bits that need expanding if it's to be taken further. In particular, the boat's combat career with the Royal Navy. I came across some forum posting that claimed she was used to patrol the Bay of Biscay as a kind of decoy, to attack U-boats going out on, and returning from, North Atlantic patrols. Though I've found no reference that confirms this.


 * Regarding references, I've been lax in places and put in one refernce tag for paragraphs that mentions several facts, all orriginating from the same publication and page. I'll look to dealing with that. Catsmeat (talk) 12:34, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * My motto is never be afraid to go to the library for books if you can find any for this subject. If your local library has online access for newspaper archives then it's a good idea to look there too. --Brad (talk) 00:24, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

David Underdown
I've done a bit of copy-editing, mostly removing a couple of stray Americanisms, sorting out dahses (as best I understand them), and moving references to after punctuation as per the normal practice. I've also tweaked a few references to make them link to useful things, and reflect the fact the Public Record Office became The National Archives back in 2003. David Underdown (talk) 10:11, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

MisterBee1966

 * I suggest to clean up the citations. Currently it looks very messy. MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:37, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * What is the naming convention for ships? Example: USS Ringgold (DD-500) was transferred to West Germany and later to Greece. Nevertheless the article is named after its first operator. Following this reasoning the article should be named German submarine U-570 and not HMS Graph (P715). MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:42, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Here are the naming conventions: WP:NC-SHIPS -MBK004 00:10, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The convention sensibly is "An article about a ship that changed name or nationality should be placed at the best-known name, with a redirect from the other name". I'd be fine with changing the article name, except I genuinely can't say which is the better known and/or most commonly used. If there is a convention in the sources I've seen, it is to use her German name when referring to her brief, pre-capture history and the British name for her post-capture history. Can you give specific examples of the citations that need tidied up? Catsmeat (talk) 13:31, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I really don't care as long as we apply similar naming conventions. You also point to the article HMS Seal (N37) which was captured by the Germans during World War II. Either way I think something needs to change since the stories sound similar only reversed. MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:04, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Seal had a reasonable RN operational history before being captured, and was never made operational by the Germans. U-570/Graph was captured on her first operational outing, and was brought fully into RN service, so the naming of each seems reasonable enough to me.  David Underdown (talk) 11:17, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Example: citation 28: Blair, page 347 and citation 37: Blair, Clay (1999). Hitler's U-Boat War: The Hunted 1942-45. Weidenfeld & Nicolson. p. 68. ISBN 0297840770. Make them consistent. MisterBee1966 (talk) 13:45, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Those are referrences to different volumes in Blair's two-volume work. My bad - I'll fix it. Catsmeat (talk) 20:31, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

pber26
That site names two books. Citation : "The famed U-boat has also been the topic of at least two books - HM U-boat by John Drummond and The Golden Horseshoe by Terrence Robertson." 13:25, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Added external link to excellent webpage : U570 at submariners.co.uk, Submariners Association, Barrow in Furness Branch.
 * Found details about first referenced book "HM U BOAT by John Drummond ; Published by WH Allen in 1958, second printing ; Illustrated". (external link : http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=216510089)
 * Having in my hands the french translation (by Roland Mehl) of that in-8° paperback edition, "U-570 contre Kriegsmarine", John Drummond, 1961, Calman-Lévy, Paris, n°8965, 244 pages (8 to 236).