Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals/Archive/2006/July

Warhammer-stub
A Warhammer-40,000-stub already exists, but as all hobbyists know, there is a distinct difference. I propose the creation of a warhammer-stub or a warhammer-fantasy-stub. Arctic-Editor 16:27, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * StubSense lists only 42 stubs in Category:Warhammer Fantasy, 36 of which are already using the fairly-appropriate wargame-stub (wargame-stub is a parent of Warhammer-40,000-stub). Perhaps a rename/rescope of Warhammer-40,000-stub to Warhammer-stub (which would, of course, include Warhammer 40K) would work.  Just my 2 cents, as I don't know much about Warhammer. ~ Amalas  rawr  =^_^=  16:35, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Rescope existing type, per Amalas. This keeps coming up, to the same general conclusion, though perhaps the number of stubs is slooooowly increasing.  I know there's a difference too, but not so great that both aren't describable as being in a "Warhammer" category.  I'd not oppose an upmerged template warhammer-fantasy-stub feeding into the renamed and rescoped, which I'll tag for such.  Alai 13:04, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Could you fix up the tagging such that it points here rather than to stub types for deletion? I don't think it's obvious the discussion is occuring here. Cheers --Pak21 13:22, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * My bad, forgot what page we were on. D'oh.  Alai 15:29, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose to any change which merges Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Fantasy stubs. While the games are similar, my experience on Wikipedia (particularly as a participant in WikiProject Warhammer 40,000) is that there are few editors who have the required level of knowledge about both games. Merging the stub types will just make it harder for editors to find suitable articles to work on, with no real gain. Cheers --Pak21 13:22, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I think I understand the difference between Warhammer 40K and Warhammer Fantasy, but would a Warhammer-stub be acceptable to apply to both for now? Then later, you could split out the two into warhammer-40,000-stub} and warhammer-fantasy-stub if  go too large. ~ Amalas  rawr  =^_^=  13:32, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Or to be precise, those templates would be in any case distinct, even initially, and get separate categories when both are >= 60 (or when each has a wikiproject, indeed). Pak, the gain is that there's then a coherent stub type that covers the scope of the original the proposal, which would still be much less than one listing page, so not really any less usable for the 40Kers, without creating what would be an undersized WHF type.  Alai 15:29, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The problem I have is that I don't see how a combined Fantasy and 40,000 stub type is going to help to improve any Warhammer 40,000 articles, and I can definitely see how it will make life more difficult, by mixing in articles I know nothing about with articles I do. Surely there must be a better solution to the problem that is facing the Fantasy editors than making life more difficult for 40,000 editors. Cheers --Pak21 15:40, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * There's no gain for the (exclusively) 40K editors, certainly. Nor am I claiming the overlap in likely editors is necessarily large (I'm more than familiar with enthusiasts of the one expressing disinterest/contempt for the other (and I'm not speaking of wikipedia editors here)).  However, I really don't see how it makes anything "more difficult" (much less life), it's a coherent scope for a category (being two series of games by the same company, with similar names, and overlapping content), and it has the benefit I've just described.  If it were being proposed to add 30 articles into an existing stub type with 700, that would be a different matter, clearly, but < 200 articles is not in the realm of "we have any pressing need for two separate stub types for these related subjects".  Alai 17:04, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If I understand correctly, Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40,000 are only marginally related wargames, right? Then why not create warhammer-fantasy-stub and feed into Category:Wargame stubs until there are enough stubs for a new category?
 * Somewhat more than "marginally", but that's exactly what I propose, Usgnus. Alai 23:06, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I must now admit I'm confused. What exactly is being proposed here? Cheers --Pak21 09:12, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly (by me, at least): a single, fed by both the existing Warhammer-40,000-stub (not renaming this, per Amalas's original suggestion), and a new warhammer-fantasy-stub (or perhaps that should be Warhammer-Fantasy-stub or WarhammerFantasy-stub, actually).  Worst comes to the worst, you'd still be able to see the 40K-only stubs with what links here.  Alai 14:33, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Given there are ~80 40,000 stubs and ~120 wargame stubs, of which ~40 are Fantasy stubs (thus meaning there are ~80 non-Fantasy wargame stubs), I still don't quite see what the advantage is of merging the Fantasy stubs in with the 40,000 stubs: it will be just as hard for Fantasy editors to find them in a combined Warhammer stubs category as it is currently, and harder for 40,000 editors to find what they want. Why not just create (or whatever you want to call it) feeding wargame stubs, and leave everything else unchanged? Apologies if I'm being more stupid than usual here... Cheers --Pak21 15:23, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. No need for the extra "warhammer" layer. Just create WarhammerFantasy-stub and feed it into Category:Wargame stubs. When there gets to be 65 or so stubs, create Category:Warhammer Fantasy stubs, a subcategory of "Wargame stubs". This way has no effect on the Warhammer 40,000 folks and helps the Warhammer Fantasy editors somewhat. --Usgnus 15:32, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Pak, the WarhammerFantasys are too small for a separate category at present. There is no separate category for them at the time being.  If you don't see an advantage to them having a stub type (albeit shared), then fair enough, I've present such argument for it as there appears to me to be.  Usgnus, what "extra layer"?  I'm proposing a single stub category for both (with "upmerged" templates), not an additional stub type.  Alai 00:04, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The "layer" is that Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40,000 stubs are being commingled in the Warhammer category. I think we should mix the Warhammer fantasy stubs with the Wargames stubs instead of with the Warhammer 40,000 stubs. Have the Warhammer fantasy template feed Wargames and have the existing Warhammer 40,000 template feed the existing Warhammer 40,000 category. But that's just my compromise suggestion. --Usgnus 00:13, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I have no objection to upmerging in that direction either (though I still don't get the "layers" argument, sorry). Note, however, that if there are any WHFRP stubs out there, that would be confusing (and indeed incorrect) in those cases.  Alai 00:41, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It's just me. A layer is the way I visualize it. I think of the stub templates as a layer. As for the issue at hand, if Pak21 is happy with your way, I have no objections. --Usgnus 00:51, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

whisky-stub /
I propose whisky-stub, as a daughter to Category:Drink stubs and a sister to tea-stub, coffee-stub, wine-stub and beer-stub. The main category could do with splitting at 645 articles. Googling for "site:en.wikipedia.org +"drink stubs" +whiskey -whisky" gives 38 hits, googling for "site:en.wikipedia.org +"drink stubs" -whisky +whiskey" gives 40 hits. Only a few hits, like Acquired taste and Half and half, do not fit this restubbing, but that still leaves us with well over 70 articles for the new stub category. Aecis AppleknockerFlophouse 19:14, 28 July 2006 (UTC) drink-stub alcoholic-drink-stub                             tea-stub     ... distilled-drink-stub   wine-stub    beer-stub
 * This seems a might thin. Stub sense only returns 25 drink-stubs within Category:Whiskies .  I'm certainly in favor of splitting drink-stub, but I'm not sure if this is the way to go.  ~ Amalas  rawr  =^_^=  19:31, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * That's partly because many haven't been categorized as anything else than stubs, and some are in . Aecis AppleknockerFlophouse 19:43, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I just added whisky categories to 3 drink-stubs. --Usgnus 20:11, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps liquor-stub might be more appropriate. It could hold whiskies, rums, gins, vodkas, etc.  Or, expanding the scope, it can also hold cocktails, liqueurs, any beverage with alcohol. --Usgnus 20:11, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, liquor redirects to distilled beverage, but distilled-beverage-stub is kinda wordy. =) I think I'd prefer the broader scope and I'd suggest a alcohol-stub.  There are 184 drink-stubs under Category:Alcohol  ~ Amalas  rawr  =^_^=  20:30, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * One problem with alcohol-stub is that it seems like it should be a sub-stub of organic-compound-stub (see Category:Alcohols). How about alcohol-drink-stub? --Usgnus 20:42, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Excellent point. What a difference an 's' makes. alchohol-drink-stub better identifies it as a child of drink-stub. ~ Amalas  rawr  =^_^=  21:01, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * To be nitpicky, it should probably be alcoholic-drink-stub. Crystallina 21:13, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Support for alcoholic-drink-stub. --Sbluen 22:58, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * How about spirits-drink-stub? It would cover a reasonable area and pare off a well-defined group of drinks. Grutness...wha?  02:49, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * How is spirits-drink-stub better than liquor-stub? --Usgnus 07:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, liquor is all alcoholic drinks. Sprits are only hard liquor as opposed to soft liquor like beer. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  09:13, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I asked because both redirect to distilled beverage and liquor sometimes refers to "hard" liquor. Liquor has the advantage of being more concise. :-) --Usgnus 16:36, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * My first connotation with the word "spirits" is religious, so I'm not sure about this one. Aecis AppleknockerFlophouse 07:59, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Support spirits-drink-stub or distilled-drink-stub. An alcoholic-drink-stub might be useful as a catch-all and supertype.  Alai 18:14, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I think just a distilled alcohlic beverage category is preferable to one that includes all alcoholic drinks. I prefer distilled-drink-stub to spirits-drink-stub, although my favourite is still liquor-stub. --Usgnus 19:58, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't really want "an all alcoholic drinks" type without a "distilled alcohlic beverage" one, though I'm not going to make my support any more convoluted than it is already, and even conditional opposition would be overkill. But as I said, I'd like both, not the general instead of the specific.  I'm (mildly) opposed to the name liquor-stub as being (mildly) ambiguous.  Alai 20:38, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I prefer a flatter hierarchy, but don't mind having
 * --Usgnus 21:03, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't it be drink-stub at the top instead of food-stub? <b style="color:maroon;">~ Amalas</b> rawr  <sup style="color:navy;">=^_^=  21:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Corrected. Thanks --Usgnus 21:16, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If this is flatter than, or indeed different from, the suggestion I made, I don't see in what way. Alai 22:13, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I wasn't clear. My preference is to omit the alcoholic-drink category, but I illustrated your suggestion as something I can accept. --Usgnus


 * Thank goodness distilled water is not a stub. -Usgnus 20:00, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

ice-stub or similar
The recently started WikiProject Glaciers created a glacier-stub which is now on SFD, since we don't normally split by landform type. However, it got me thinking... does need splitting, and there are probably a good number of stubs relating to glaciology, glaciation, and the ice ages there (definitely enough since there's a WikiProject - I'd estimate about 45-50). I'd like to suggest an ice-stub - preferably under a better name - to cover these topics. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  11:27, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Would this stub also cover articles about these? ;) I'm totally kidding, of course <b style="color:maroon;">~ Amalas</b>  rawr  <sup style="color:navy;">=^_^=  14:55, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * glaciology-stub/ should cover it. See Category:Glaciology. --Usgnus 15:13, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * In case you're wondering about that blue link, I've created it as a redirect to geology-stub under Usgnus' suggested name - even if it doesn't reach a reasonable target now it should soon (as it is, I think it will reach that target anyway), and it made sense to do it now while I'm emptying rather than having to restub things twice. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  12:22, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Forgive template, and permit category if it hits 60, or a wikiproject. Alai 18:34, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
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Methodism-stub/
There is a series of articles on Methodism, but yet no stub for Methodism per se. This is unfortunate, because, despite the current virtual integration of the fundamentalist churches in the US, there remain significant differences between the various churches. Also, I believe that members of this church would be much more likely to add to articles relating to their church if they wouldn't have to sift through all the Christian denomination stubs to find them. Badbilltucker 13:34, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I've taken the liberty of hyphenating your suggested template name, per the stub naming guidelines. I'm a tad confused with the use of "fundamentalist" to be synonymous with "Methodist" -- they ain't.  This would be a coherent enough stub type, if it also meets the size criteria:  how many such stubs are there at present?  Alai 17:15, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The only problem I see is how broad should the scope be, given the intermixture of Methodism with the other strands of Protestantism. It would be helpful if there were a WikiProject Methodism to give some shape to the scope. As for "fundamentalist", while not arch-conservative (as a whole), Methodists still believe in the Bible as being divinely inspired rather than merely a nice collection of historical and philosophical writings, as some of the more ecumenical denominations do. Caerwine <small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caerwhine  17:50, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * But not all Methodists are fundamentalists, in any of the usual senses, and certainly by no means are all fundamentalists, Methodists. This may speak to the scoping point:  I assumed the intent was, self-indentified Methodists, denoms with "Methodist" in their title, etc, rather than attempting a monophyletic sub-taxon of Protestantism.  Alai 23:21, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * My only intention in linking Methodism with fundamentalism in my original statement was to point out that while the so-called fundamentalist churches, which all adhere to the five fundamentals, may have recently been, to varying degrees, downplaying their real differences, those real differences do exist, and that it makes no sense to have them all grouped together into a non-denominational "Christianity." Also, the people and articles that I would include in this group would be primarily those who are clearly and undeniably linked to the Methodist faith, by virtue of being bishops, ministers, members of congregations, whatever.  As for how many there might be now, I think that it would be rather difficult to point out a specific number, although I have no doubt that it is substantial.  Also, I think that there would probably be much more interest in creating a Methodist WikiProject if Methodists were to see how much work there was to do in their own field. The same would probably hold for the other major Christian denominations, as well.  Badbilltucker 13:14, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It makes much less sense to split them between "fundamentalist" and "non-fundamentalist" however, given how problematic that would be. On the new type as proposed (as I understand it, i.e. without reference to fundamentalism, but to self-described Methodism):  if you can't confirm that this would meet the size guidelines, I'll have to oppose.  Creating a stub type to encourage a wikiproject to create more stubs to justify the stub type is a little too circular (and uncertain) for my liking.  Alai 18:44, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * There is no intention of trying to encourage a project. However, I have on me a list of some 200 names and short biographical pieces of prominent Methodist clergy, most of whom are not so far as I can tell already mentioned, as well as some additional names from a Who's Who book.  It was my intention to create the stub so that it could be used on these stubs.  However, as it seems that the creation of a new stub type before the fact is unlinkely, I shall attempt to create the stubs and then call for a stub template later. Badbilltucker 19:49, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * What I suggest in that circumstance is that you create the template, only, feeding at present into the next likely parent (I assume, ), to facilitate tagging these articles as they're identified and/or created. Once that hits around 60, a separate category should then be a formality.  Alai 03:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

Seismology-stub and
Category:Geology stubs has almost 1000 articles and is way too big. Category:Seismology has 75 stubs and is good enough for a stub category. --Sbluen 23:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a good call to me. Alai 23:47, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Support. --Usgnus 15:14, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
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Markup-languages-stub and
This stub template would be for articles in Category:Markup languages. It would help to reduce the size of Category:Computer language stubs, which has about 700 articles. --Sbluen 16:02, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Likely population? Alai 02:28, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I think so. Category:Markup languages is the largest subcategory of Category:Computer languages that is not highly ambiguous or questionable. --Sbluen 02:50, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, I'm neglecting Dr Phil's excellent advice on grammar, and failing to put verbs in my sentences. I meant to ask, what is the likely population?  If it's >= 60, I'm in, as it is at least coherently scoped.  Alai 03:10, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I thought you were asking if the stub category was likely to have population done by others. I looked on the stubsense page and saw Compu-stub used 36 times, Software-stub used 32 times, and Compu-lang-stub 31 times and a total of 142 stub articles. --Sbluen 03:44, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * That looks a little false-pos-prone, but if it helps at all with the compu-stubs and software-stubs, I say go for it, and hopefully it'll be at least thereabouts. Alai 03:54, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
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Festival-stub in need of splitting
The number of stubs marked with festival-stub is well into four figures - it needs some form of split fairly soon. I haven't counted them up, but at a quick glance, it looks like the following would help to relieve the burden considerably: Any thoughts or further possibilities are most welcome! Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  05:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * music-festival-stub for music festivals
 * reli-festival-stub for religious festivals and holy days
 * holiday-stub or similar for state/national holidays and official days
 * Support. A theatre or arts festival stub would be useful, too. There are probably enough comedy festivals, fringe festivals, etc. to include such a stub. Agent 86 19:46, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Support including theatre or arts festival. I counted 33 film festival stubs and 22 food festival stubs; perhaps we can create these stubs but not the categories. --Usgnus 20:30, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Support and how about film-festival-stub? 128 articles of this ilk. &hearts; Her Pegship &hearts; 16:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
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Podcast-stub /
With the number of podcast stubs increasing I feel it would be useful to have a Podcasting stub. A Wikipedia search for podcasts shows many results. PodShow.com contains many examples of encyclopedia worthy podcasts. Several include: The Random Show, Geek Brief TV, Daily Source Code, Pacific Coast Hellway, Tikibar, This Week In Tech, 7th Son, Scott Sigler (Podcast novel writer), Yeast Radio, and Rocketboom. Many of these articles need attention and therefore a Podcast-stub. Djsteen 23:36, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * This was created before, and deleted in February, so I'd like strong evidence of numerical viability (and ideally, some evidence of it actually being needed). Likewise, we've had unproposed stub types for blogs, and even for "vlogs", that have seen very little actual use.  Can we at least squish them all together to make one good(ish) one?  Alai 00:57, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I suppose this is what the Internet-stub is for. Djsteen 08:01, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Turns out this seems to be a little more populous than I'd have guessed: StubSense finds 47.  I'd still prefer a slight upscope, if this can be done in a coherent manner, merging with the existing (though pending deletion for being too small) blog-stub.  Is there a recognised umbrella term for blogging, videoblogging and podcasting?  Alai 08:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * What about internet-bcast-stub, or internet-publish-stub? &hearts; Her Pegship &hearts; 14:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds plausible to me, if a little hard to bound precisely. Alai 21:46, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

A serach of Wikipedia for "podcaster" and "stub" gives me 431 hits. That seems like plenty for it's own stub tag. I'm trying to get to this Stubsense to check those results. However, I am unable to find a link to the actual program. A Wikipeida search for stubsense comes up with no artitcles, and Google gives me thousands of talk pages with "Stubsense says ..." or "Stubsense shows..." so I can't figure out how to get to it. Ultimate ed 17:49, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
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Television biography stub split
There may be some overlap between some of these, obviously. Alai 22:18, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 69
 * 86
 * 88
 * 133
 * 151
 * 172
 * 241
 * 388
 * Well, besides the usual UK/British and US/American rant, there's the fact that Television personalities is a subcat of Television presenters, so unless you factored that already into the above, I see no reason to have both. I'm not sanguine about splitting actors by medium as it has led to a good deal of double stubbing with film and TV to date, enough that I think screen actors would probably be a better cat there, and the same with the writers.  On the other hand, TV and radio have a good deal of overlap in the journalist category, altho moreso over in the UK than the US, since they still have a significant amount of radio journalism thanks to the BBC.  Anyway, despite the likely heavy double stubbing, given that it follows what the perm cats are doing, support, , , and .  Defer the four others for now and bug WP:TV to decide whether they want presenters, personalities, or both and what the difference is supposed to be. Caerwine <small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caerwhine  23:42, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Those counts are totals, so the personalities would be subtracted from the presenters if both were created, though on the face of it both would appear to be separately viable, the latter to the tune of 147. Bear in mind that these are all already tagged as particular to TV, so there's no issue of additional stubbing at least in these cases (future use I can hardly legislate for).  I've no objection to a screen actor combined category;  my earlier suggestion for the large US overlap is tantamount to the same thing, but I think separate categories in addition are still useful.  Alai 03:43, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
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English football internationals
I'm drawing thin on this one as far as the perm-cats are concerned. Further bright ideas welcome. Alai 20:13, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 48
 * 80


 * Might be better to do what we've done with other sports -
 * And have these irrespective of whether the players have played internatonally. At least there should be permanent cats for these. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  23:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * And have these irrespective of whether the players have played internatonally. At least there should be permanent cats for these. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  23:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * And have these irrespective of whether the players have played internatonally. At least there should be permanent cats for these. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  23:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * And have these irrespective of whether the players have played internatonally. At least there should be permanent cats for these. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  23:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * And have these irrespective of whether the players have played internatonally. At least there should be permanent cats for these. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  23:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah yes, the subcats of . Doing a count by those, I get:
 * 32
 * 36
 * 42
 * 46
 * Which really just proves they're very undercategorised... There would also be a certain logic to parent types by position, too.  Alai 02:12, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Given the number of stubs we have, this looks like severe undercategorisation. What's more, since you'd logically expect several defenders, midfieldes and strikers per goalkeeper, if you have 32 goalies the rest should all romp past the threshold. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  05:31, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Agree with these, and also create the non-stub parent categories at the same time. However to match  and   The cats should use English and not England. Caerwine <small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caerwhine  21:30, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You're right, I was carelessly generalising from the international cats, and/or from G's suggestion. Updated.  Alai 22:43, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * whoops. good point. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  01:40, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Since it seems like these were sadly neglected, and the category is way out of control, I'm going to go ahead and make these by position, since that seems to be what people agreed on. --fuzzy510 03:48, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
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Sf-char-stub/
There are few hundreds sf-stubs and over a thousand fictonal character stubs. A child category for both seems only logical.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus <sup style="color:green;">Talk 17:10, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment - how many would you estimate in the fictional character stubs are sci-fi (since not all sf-stubs are characters)? plange 18:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, StubSense lists 34 sf-stubs under Category:Fictional character stubs <b style="color:maroon;">~ Amalas</b>  rawr  <sup style="color:navy;">=^_^=  20:05, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Then it sounds like it doesn't meet the 60 article criteria... plange 20:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I count 117 ov the above stubs that are in or under, so support. Alai 21:18, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * seems to be a discrepancy - is it 34 or 117? Big difference.... BTW, am a huge sci-fi fan so would totally support if there were enough plange 02:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Note the entirely different things being counted in each case. Alai 03:43, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, am a noob... He's saying there are 34 sf-stubs under fictional character stubs and I think you're saying you counted 117 "ov the above" stubs (sf-stubs?) under the science fiction category? If the latter, isn't that too broad as not all sf-stubs are about characters? Sorry if I'm being dense. Of do you mean you counted 117 fictional character stubs under science fiction? plange 15:05, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Amalas was counting the articles in both and .  I was counting all the articles in both, and all subcategories (one of which is obviously ), and in .  Is that any clearer?  (I also meant "of", rather than "ov";  must have been typing with a heavy German accent.)  Alai 15:45, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Just did a stub sense for that and only got 28 articles that were fictional character stubs under the science fiction category -plange 21:26, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * StubSense limits its search to 4000 pages; I did not.  Alai 22:07, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I give up-- this was my first time using stub sense so I don't know how this all works. Was just trying to follow the guidelines given. never mind. Why do people use stub sense then to gauge whether a stub is warranted? Did you count the stubs by hand? Or is that just how many articles were under there? I'm not trying to be difficult, I was just trying to follow by example as I see how others do on this page in general -- seems like on other stub requests people are pretty strict about it needing to be 60 stubs at least and I naively weighed in on others below before I knew that, so was trying to do better in this case. Do whatever you want. -plange 22:37, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * StubSense is a useful tool, but it isn't the only tool that can or should be used, particularly when the corresponding perm-cat either does not yet exist or is woefully underpopulated. We want at least 60 stubs per type, but methods other than StubSense to find them are perfectly valid. Caerwine <small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caerwhine  00:07, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Support - Should be enough stubs to support this category. --Groggy Dice 18:59, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Support per Alai & Piotr. &hearts; Her Pegship &hearts; 04:17, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Support as long as they're double stubbed by medium. Crystallina 14:53, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
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Fict-stub/
While category Category:Fiction is not to big, I recently stumbled upon quite a few articles which are stubs but don't necessarily fall under Fict-char-stub, {{{tl|fict-location-stub}} and sf-stub. Not to mention that the first two need a parent category for ease of sorting (are there any other fict-stubs I missed? Consider ficitonal vehicles, items, timelines and other such items. Many of them are not tagged as stubs, so Stub Sense is not best to use here, but the reachness of sf-stub category suggest that its parent category would surely not be wasted, especially as most of literary genres are missing their own stubs at all.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus <sup style="color:green;">Talk 17:10, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * What type of articles are we talking about, and roughly how many? Alai 19:24, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment I think I sort of understand what Piotr is trying to say here. I often find things like a fictional organization (or what Piotr mentioned above) that don't fit fict-char.  I find myself wishing for something that is similar to cvg-fict-stub that is for a fictional element, but not necessarily a character. <b style="color:maroon;">~ Amalas</b>  rawr  <sup style="color:navy;">=^_^=  20:09, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Heads-up - fict-org-stub was proposed July 2 (see below). &hearts; Her Pegship &hearts; 02:13, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * That still wouldn't solve the problem of fictional objects which I keep running into stubs for. Perhaps a fict-item-stub or similar would solve that. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  03:25, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * This has a certain logic to it, as a parent to the existing fictional stub types, and as a catch-all for the "fictional miscs" and "yaddas related to fiction". An idea of the likely population would be handy, though.  Alai 04:13, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Support then, per Alai, if enough yaddas can be found. &hearts; Her Pegship &hearts; 19:25, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
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split
There seems to be undersorting to some existing categories in this case too (I had a look for blue-links this time). Alai 06:41, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 65 (I've put 55 articles into it. NCursework 17:43, 21 July 2006 (UTC))
 * 65 - Disagree. Not preciously defined category. NCurse [[Image:Nuvola_apps_edu_science.png|22px]]work 16:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 65
 * 78 - Disagree. Not important. NCurse [[Image:Nuvola_apps_edu_science.png|22px]]work 16:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 78 - Disagree. We have neuroscience. NCurse [[Image:Nuvola_apps_edu_science.png|22px]]work 16:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 89
 * 98 (I've put 45 articles into it. NCursework 13:04, 22 July 2006 (UTC))
 * 149 - Not medicine task. NCurse [[Image:Nuvola_apps_edu_science.png|22px]]work 16:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 249
 * 259 - Disagree. We have anatomy stub with 4 substubtype. NCurse [[Image:Nuvola_apps_edu_science.png|22px]]work 16:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I've created a subpage of WikiProject Medicine for stub types here. It'd be important to cooperate. For example we have neuroscience-stub, why would we need neurology-stub? We have anatomy-stub and zoology-stub. Why do we need human or animal anatomy-stub? Anyway good ideas. :) NCursework 08:25, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The neuro- one may indeed be duplicative, or substantially overlapping. However, the existing anatomy stub type I'm well aware of, which is why I didn't include the 5 or 6 hundred articles that are in or under the  category, and currently tagged as med-stub.  (Said categorisation may or may not be indicative of primary notability, of course.)  Not to mention the small detail that that type is itself significantly oversized, so a split into human and animal anatomy, as with the perm-cats, seems a pretty basic step forward.  At any rate, at eight pages, several hundred articles ought to be hauled out of there one way or another.  Alai 09:05, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It will be an enormous job, but I start to create them. Any help is welcomed. :) NCursework 17:20, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

You'd think that'd be larger, but what do I know... Alai 08:01, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not entirely sure I follow all the objections above, but at least some progress is being made. You may be correct about coming of these being duplicative, but at any rate they may be evidence of significant undersorting to those types.  And if we're not to split along the lines of the permanent categories, then how?  Note that it's still seven listing pages, so a long way to go.  At any rates, I further suggest:
 * 117
 * Oops, I really must remember to check for those bluelinks... Some undersorting, I think!  Alai 08:05, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
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Māori-stub
For Māori customs, issues, and people. I found 65 such stubs without much trouble, 34 from NZ-stub and the rest from browsing Category:Māori. -- Avenue 03:02, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I must admit to bias on this one, but there probably are enough... But I'd suggest using the form without the macron (Maori-stub), simply because we usually avoid accents and diacriticals in stub templates (not all keyboards are set up to use them easily). It might even be better to make it NZ-ethno-stub (although New Zealand is a special case given its lack of pre-European diversity), to avoid any potential edit-warring re: Moriori articles. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  03:24, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... I saw an article related to the Maori earlier today and I think I marked it as IndigenousAustralia-stub, which is presumably incorrect now that I think about it. StubSense reports 68 stubs.  Support NZ-ethno-stub <b style="color:maroon;">~ Amalas</b>  rawr  <sup style="color:navy;">=^_^=  03:44, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * That's actually what prompted me to suggest this. :) I still prefer Maori-stub because of its tighter focus, similar to IndigenousAustralia-stub. Admittedly the Moriori are an issue, although probably a pretty minor one. But I'd accept NZ-ethno-stub if that's what others prefer. -- Avenue 12:31, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Support. I'd be inclined to go with NZ-ethno- as the most general, and conforming to the established pattern, but add redirects from both the other orthographies.  Alai 03:48, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
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Powerplant-stub
StubSense reports 70 in US-struct-stub alone.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus <sup style="color:green;">Talk 21:05, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds sensible. powerstation-stub would be more consistent with the main article (though not the category, to confuse matters), and less ambiguous than powerplant.  If there's >= 60 non-US as well, create separate US-powerstation-stub, too.  Alai 22:11, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 'Support per Alai. Caerwine <small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caerwhine 02:44, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Going by StubSense, it looks like both would be just-about-viable. I'm going ahead with the US- one, as it seems readily populable, and will help deplete the US-structs.  Alai 04:46, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
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Castle-stub
While 18 of the StubSense findings overlap with Fort-stub, I think Castle-stub can be a good subcat of Fort-stub (not all forts are castles, but all castles are forts). Note that we have England-castle-stub, Scotland-castle-stub and Wales-castle-stub, and that stub sence found 37 hits in Euro-struct-stub, and about 60 total in Japan, France, UK, Poland and MEeast-struct stubs alone.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus <sup style="color:green;">Talk 21:01, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I think there's a certain inevitable logic to this, give the existing sub-types. (BTW, not all castles are really fortifications, many are post-med ostentation that wouldn't withstand a half-dozen cheesed-off peasant, but close enough for categorisation purposes, I suppose.)  Alai 22:39, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
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Monument-stub
With redirect from Memorial-stub. I just discovered stubscan and started using it on some categories which I thought would deserve stub. Full (4k) scan of Category:Monuments and memorials revelas 86 articles in Ancient-Egypt-stub, 39 in Archaeology-stub, 26 in Protected-area-stub and dozens of others. Some are not structures, I think we easily have more then 60.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus <sup style="color:green;">Talk 21:01, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
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diplomacy-stub / and diplomat-stub /
Despite the Category:Diplomacy, articles on diplomacy are spread out across Wikipedia. The stubs are accordingly disparate, falling into Category:Government stubs, Category:Politics stubs, Category:Military stubs, Category:International organization stubs, etc. In addition, there are dozens of stubs that aren't listed as such, since there isn't an appropriate category.
 * Into the new Category:Diplomacy stubs would go (amongst others) dozens of pieces of terminology (from eDiplomat); 43 articles on New Zealand's missions abroad; and a great many on embassies, 'Foreign relations of Foo', etc.
 * Into the new Category:Diplomat stubs (which would be a subcategory of the above), would fall most of the 508 stubs identified by StubSense.

Further sub-categories could easily be justified in due course, but these are the two most pressing. Bastin 17:45, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * This could be a tricky one, as it's the sort of category that may be applied correctly to someone, without it necessarily being their primary area of notability, if they're also, as you note, a politico, military person, or whatnot. But 508 is a goodly safety margin, so that seems likely enough, so long as people don't go mad with unnecessary double-stubbing or inappropriate restubbing, sounds good.  Alai 03:38, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * These already got proposed back in June. There's not any problem with diplomat-stub, which had as of then had only about 300 potential stubs idetified by StubSense, and could certainly be created now based on that previous proposal.  There was a mild disagreemeent over whether to have a diplomacy stub type or a broader international relations stub type, and I've been trying through CFD to get the perma-cats better organized first before resolving that.  Phase 1 awaits merely an admin to close out two uncontentious CFD upmerges. Caerwine <small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caerwhine  06:53, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
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Film bio split
Based on counts only from the film-bios... Alai 04:24, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 77
 * 90
 * 156
 * again, biographical or biography? Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  05:55, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Support per Alai. "Film biographical" in the parent cat refers to bios about film people, while "biographical film" refers to films which are biographical in nature. &hearts; Her Pegship &hearts; 21:04, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, that possible confusion hadn't even occurred to me. Is the present  less liable to that than, or should we be renaming the whole caboodle to , or something?  Alai 23:10, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * When in doubt, look elsewhere to see if there might be help. How about we ask the Films wikiproject for their input.  From a look at the permanet cats, it would seem that they need to organize those as well, and if they can decide on where to put stuff for geric film people, we might be able to avoid the biograph-y/-ical conundrum. In the mean time, make that  please. Caerwine <small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caerwhine  06:03, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
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Fict-org-stub /
There are plenty of fictional organizations out there, from super-hero teams to groups on television shows. Jfing e  r s  88  23:15, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * But are there plenty of stub articles about fictional organizations? Caerwine <small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caerwhine 00:04, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Probably. But I would assume they're merely listed in a broader category, such as Tv-stub or comics-stub. Jfing  e  r s  88  21:56, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Then please find them first. Because of the nature of fictional organization articles, I'm not certain there will be many stubs.  An organization found in only a single work of fiction shouldn't be broken out of the article on that work unless there is more than a stub's worth of article.  Only in the case of organizations found in multiple works should there even be stub articles. I realize that this ideal of what should happen with subtopics is not always followed, but I'd like something firmer than "there ought to be enough stubs" in this case. Caerwine <small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caerwhine  07:30, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * There are 111 articles under which qualify as stub size (less than 512k, fewer than 7 wikilinks). Of course, I don't know if they merit anything larger than stub size, but there it is. &hearts; Her Pegship &hearts; 20:02, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Equivocal. There seems to be the population, as Peg notes, but I fear that this won't do much to reduce the size of existing large types, and will probably just increasing double-stubbing, as few topics are primarily notable for being "fictional organizations", and most are probably quite correctly sorted as tv-stubs, comics-stubs, etc.  Alai


 * Support. This category is likely to grow.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus <sup style="color:green;">Talk 00:05, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
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