Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals/Archive/2007/October

This is an archive of discussions from WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals for the month of October 2007. Please move completed October discussions to this page as they occur, add discussion headers to each proposal showing the result, and leave incomplete discussions on the Proposals page. After October, the remainder of the discussions will be moved to this page, whether stub types have been created or not.

Those who create a stub template/cat should be responsible for moving the discussion here and listing the stub type in the archive summary.

Stub proposers please note: Items tagged as "nocreate" or "no consensus" are welcome for re-proposal if and when circumstances are auspicious.


 * Discussion headers:
 * sfp create
 * sfp nocreate
 * sfp other (for no consensus)
 * sfp top for customized result description (use ).
 * Discussion footer: sfd bottom

by district
1260 articles. 11 kreise. While I don't want to truncate any possible fascinating, full and frank discussion, this looks like it'll be pretty straightforward. Alai 05:18, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
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Madeline Moore
I propose a stub on the writer Madeline Moore.

Author Felix Baron/Michael Crawley would like to add an autobiographical stub.
 * You didn't read the instructions did you? The bit that says "If you wish to propose the creation of a stub ARTICLE you've come to the wrong place." BTW, given your user name, (the initial comment was by User:Madeline Moore) I suspect there may be a conflict of interest. Grutness...wha?  22:32, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
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Computer Books
How about a subcategory of Category:Science book stubs for technical books about computing? There is already Category:Mathematics literature stubs and many of the "science books" are computer books. At the very least, this would help people find non-computer science book stubs. — The Storm Surfer 20:29, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds plausible. Any idea of likely size?  Would it by any chance with the horrendously-sized ?  Put me down for an upmerged template at the very least.  Alai 05:14, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Cattersect shows 22 articles in both and  and 20 articles in both  and . There's a far smaller overlap with  or . So there's definitely enough for a template, though a category may still be some way away. Support upmerged template for now, though. Grutness...wha?  09:35, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Oo, new toy. Looks like you're right about the present location of these, though I think you're missing the (other) subcats of :  I count 54 from that tree in total.  So viability looks fairly likely, given even a smattering from elsewhere, or at least close.  (Though I don't guarantee there are any elsewhere:  everything in  seems to be double-tagged, and I could find nothing at all in ...)  Alai 05:50, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I found 'em: there was a bunch lurking in the non-fiction books, which is doubly-handy since those had become oversized (yet again) too.  It's a done deal, 84 in there at present.  Alai 01:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
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1910s-novel-stub/
This pair of templates have long been an anomaly in the sequence of stub categories between that for the and the decade based set that run from  to. Currently each load which is still overpopulated and includes many articles that need further sorting. This process is hampered by repeatedly falling over articles that would naturally sort to these categories is approved. Each of these now appear to have around 50 articles and seem to grow rather than reduce over time. :: Kevinalewis  : (Talk Page) /(Desk)  08:32, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * if "whatlinkshere" is any judge, there are 68 articles with the 1910 template, so that's a definite speedy support. There are 56 with the 1900 one - enough for a non-speedy support, though another four stubs would be nice :) Grutness...wha?  09:26, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I have built both of these as the article count has grown - so I am treating this a both supported. :: Kevinalewis  : (Talk Page) /(Desk)  13:29, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
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Nigeria-sport-bio-stub /
While not 100% sure of the figures, I know there are nearly 20 basketball biography stubs and a good number of boxing-bios as well. The parent category, is definite due for another split and this is a good place to begin.--Thomas.macmillan 06:16, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * No objection to an upmerged template, but oppose a category until there's evidence for numerical viability (I count around 44, btw), or indeed need (the parent's barely over one listings page, after all). Alai 20:03, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Created upmerged template, and combined with other templates, there is a total of 57. We can either wait for it to rise or just go ahead and create it, which I think is the better option.--Thomas.macmillan 03:43, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I think I can refrain from hauling it off to SFD for the want of three articles. :) Alai 05:41, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Support category as we already have football and athletics subcats so 57 articles and 2 subcats I think is enough for a category. Waacstats 07:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, I'd missed the two subcats, sorry. I'd have supported in the first instance had I cottoned on.  Alai 08:07, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
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Baseball splits
Propose Cuba-baseball-bio-stub as well as DominicanRepublic-baseball-bio-stub along with the appropriate categories. Cuba is an obvious example, as there are 136 articles in and over 330 articles. A would probably be useful too, considering how many stubs there actually are (Athletics has already been broken down). The Dominican Republic, while only having 112 articles in, has over 280 articles in .--Thomas.macmillan 19:31, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds very logical. Support.  Alai 22:45, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Support. nb A cuba-sport-bio-stub would be viable with or without the baseball-bios I did a quick count and got at least 70 marked as stubs with about 36 being boxers so suggest an upmerged Cuba-boxing-bio-stub as well (though this may need a seperate proposal). Waacstats 09:29, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Nah, I think it barely needs that one: support such an upmerged template.  Alai 22:58, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
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Two geo-speedies
Two more countries (well, one country and one country-like entity) have reached the 60-stub level, so I'd like to speedy: Grutness...wha?  13:20, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * and
 * And I think you oughta. Alai 14:46, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * in that case... done. Grutness...wha?  00:32, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
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3 Speedy cats?
Propose speedy creation of the following categories as the corresponding templates have over 60 articles each. Waacstats 09:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * (64)
 * (69)
 * (61)
 * Most certainly. Alai 09:56, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
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AMSR
Eslobl 19:23, 17 October 2007 (UTC) Advanced Microwave Scanning Radiometer (AMSR) for Earth Observing System (AMSR-E) Instrument on Aqua, a NASA afternoon satellite, and part of 'A-train' For details see http://wwwghcc.msfc.nasa.gov/AMSR --Eslobl 19:23, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Huh? What's that got to do with stub types? Grutness...wha?  00:18, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
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Madeira Islands geography stubs
Madeira-geo-stub now has 60 articles. Note cat name is to parallel, "Madeira" being considered on WP to relate to the main island of the chain. Grutness...wha?  23:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * See previous discussion for possible naming. Support. Her Pegship  (tis herself) 23:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah - it went through CfD for discussion on its name. Actually, I see that is a subcat of, so that would be a better permcat (making this the fairly cumbersome, but Wikipedially correct ). Grutness...wha?  00:11, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
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Split of airports
there are over 100 articles in NorthAm-airport-stubs also in Airports in Mexico so I propose Waacstats 09:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Mexico-airport-stub /
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Another speediable geo-stub category
After a half-hour or so of stub creation, Mauritius is now up to the point of having enouygh geo-stubs for its own category. Therefore, I'd like to propose the speediable. Grutness...wha?  03:42, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
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Split of Cat:Mosque stubs
I scanned Category:Mosque stubs to see if there were enough articles for a template:africa-mosque-stub - there weren't (only 22), but I did get well over 60 Malaysian ones. So, I propose template:Malaysia-mosque-stub and the accompanying category. The category would be a subcat of Category:Malaysia stubs, Category:Mosque stubs, and Category:Asian building and structure stubs.

Alternately, a template:Asia-mosque-stub could work (there were a good deal of Iranian mosque stubs, and some Bengali and Indian ones too). Picaroon (t) 22:30, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It certainly seems reasonable to split this, and Malaysia certainly sounds viable - IIRC, there are quite a large number of Iranian ones, too, though perhaps a more generic MEast-mosque-stub is a better idea. Grutness...wha?  00:03, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Again, a regional template seems more trouble than it's worth in the long run, and in this case I have my doubts about the utility of that particular regional category. Support templates for any -mosque-stub you care to name, and categories as needed.  Alai 03:58, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
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Split of
I propose the following splits as well as the following to complete the continintal split both would appear numerically viable but having gone through sports venue stubs I forgot to kep count and catscan doesn't give up to date figures. I believe the following countries would be worth having templates for Honduras, Guatemala, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Cuba, Costa Rica and Puerto Rico
 * / Canada-sports-venue-stub & Canada-icehockey-venue-stub (+80)
 * / Australia-sports-venue-stub (+80)
 * / CentralAm-sports-venue-stub
 * / Caribbean-sports-venue-stub
 * Two more countries to add to the mix
 * / China-sports-venue-stub (78)inc Macao and HK
 * / Korea-sports-venue-stub (74 South + 6 North)
 * Waacstats 14:19, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The "China-" one I would instead scope (and name) as "PRC-", given the past 'issues' with the scoping of "China". (It's a bit like "Ireland-", really, just with more edit-warring.)  As usual, I'd prefer as many upmerged by-country templates as people have the patience to create, and no regional templates unless they run out of same, but it's not a deal-breaker by any means.  Oh, so that's a support, and I suspect these are speediable.  Alai 19:00, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * That's PRChina-, not PRC-, Alai. The PRC-x-stub types were changed over not that long ago. Grutness...wha?  00:22, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The B&S template is at PRC-struct-stub, not at PRChina-struct-stub, unless my eyes (and WP's edit and deletion histories) deceive me. If someone wants to make a redirect-preserving move in line with the -geo-stub, I'd have no objection.  Let's just avoid more of the "China" scoping issues, though.  Alai 18:10, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Rouge admin that I am, that's no sooner said than done :). That one must've got missed out when the geo, bio, politician, etc stub types got moved recently. I note, somewhat worryingly, though, that we have a China-struct-stub redirect to it used on about a dozen articles - presumably dating to the "Instantnood Wars". That probably needs sfd'ing. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  23:38, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * While I'm on a counter-pedanting roll, when you say that "one got missed", I think perhaps you mean that "only the -geo- was nominated": see Stub types for deletion/Log/2007/September/1. Others are still at China-politician-stub, PRC-airport-stub, etc.  The China- redirects-from-move where never deleted, at the time of the original move (Stub types for deletion/Log/2007/March/2), and now that the original scoping brouhaha's long since died down (touch wood), I'm not at all sure that deleting it would be productive.  "PRChina-" would be about the third on the list -- or lower -- of name elements people are likely to guess when using this.  (Adding redirects from PRC- to PRChina- was mooted at that time, but seemingly not implemented, until the move of the -geo- to that name.)  The transclusions I've looked are all nothing to do with IN, were used by a number of different editors, and date more recently than the renaming.  (In fact, it looks like I bot-edited all the "old" translusions, which makes me wonder if the original intent was actually to delete it -- but I'm afraid that if the closer (Amalas) and I were to have a summit on that now, I can guarantee that at least one of us wouldn't recall, unless there's an on-wiki note lying around someplace.)  Anyway, the consistency could clearly stand to rise, here:  I suggest moving all the "PRC"s to "PRChina", most definitely keeping the redirect and transclusions thereof;  the "China"s may be less clear-cut, since the current or intended scope might be China-in-general (or "Mainland China", heaven forfend, or something else), so this could represent a narrowing (or widening) thereof.  I wouldn't necessarily be offended by a redirect-preserving move of those too, but the categories will presumably have to be renamed too, so maybe it's better done at SFD.  Alai 01:51, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Query So does all this mean that 'China' should be / PRChina-sports-venue-stub
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Colombian sportspeople stubs
I proposeColombia-sport-bio-stub and catscan shows approx 80 articles with a footy subcat already in existance. Waacstats 12:29, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
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Split of
Propose the following templates numbers per catscan, also propose categories for any of these that reach 60 along the lines of. Waacstats 12:29, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Ukraine-footyclub-stub (59)
 * Serbia-footyclub-stub (51)
 * Greece-footyclub-stub (46)
 * Bulgaria-footyclub-stub (31)
 * Poland-footyclub-stub (30)
 * Portugal-footyclub-stub (30)
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Split of Canadian sportspeople stubs
Category over 600 I propose splitting out boxers and wintersports with figures per catscan.Waacstats 12:07, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Canada-boxing-bio-stub (60)
 * Canada-wintersport-bio-stub (79)
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Nigeria-ethno-group-stub
Nearly everything in Category:Ethnic groups in Nigeria is a stub, so I propose Nigeria-ethno-group-stub (without category, for now). With most of Nigeria's hundreds of ethnic groups still lacking articles, this template has plenty of potential growth in use. How far less populous and ethnically-diverse countries like Zimbabwe and Kenya have their own ethnic group stubs, while Nigeria was passed over, escapes me. Picaroon (t) 05:40, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * So, double-upmerged to and ?  I don't see why not.  I don't see why it couldn't be speedied, in fact.  Alai 05:54, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I've created the template. If I notice it has reached sixty transclusions, shall I switch over to its own category? Picaroon (t) 03:55, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
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Templates for Zanzibar
Propose Zanzibar-geo-stub, Zanzibar-bio-stub, Zanzibar-politician-stub and Zanzibar-stub templates, all upmerged for the time being into the Tanzanian template. Zanzibar-stub might be viable with all of the other also feeding into it.--Thomas.macmillan 19:59, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
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Irish geography stubs
Propose creating Kildare-geo-stub, Wicklow-geo-stub, Meath-geo-stub, Tipperary-geo-stub, Leitrim-geo-stub, Waterford-geo-stub, Wexford-geo-stub and Donegal-geo-stub. Ireland-geo-stub is getting huge, and it will be much easier for editors to find articles needing expansion if they more of them are grouped by county. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:46, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Less huge than some, mind you... Support templates for all remaining counties, but upmerged until numerical viability is clear (at time of last db dump, none had reached 60, though Wicklow and Donegal were in the low 50s, though doubtless some have grown signicantly, the frequency of en: db dumps currently being "highly in-").  If none are, and the parent continues to grow, provincial upmerger targets would be a feasible option.  Alai 02:09, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Support upmerged, per Alai - also support categories for any that reach the 60-stub threshold (the others should stay upmerged). Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  02:18, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, will create the templates on that basis. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:50, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
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More Irish geography stubs

 * We have now have stub templates for half of the 26 counties, and I am busy dispersing Ireland-geo-stub articles as appropriate. However, this got me thinking again, and it seems to be unhelpful to editors for some of the counties to have stub templates, but not others. Editors are more likely to use the by-county templates if they don't have to remember a list of which counties don't have them. So I propose creating templates for the following list, with categories only if they reach 60: Carlow-geo-stub, Cavan-geo-stub, Clare-geo-stub, Kilkenny-geo-stub, Laois-geo-stub, Limerick-geo-stub, Longford-geo-stub, Louth-geo-stub, Monaghan-geo-stub, Offaly-geo-stub, Roscommon-geo-stub, Sligo-geo-stub and Westmeath-geo-stub. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:59, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I proposed exactly that under the earlier heading. Alai 17:13, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I misread your comment at the time as just support for the listed templates. Have now created all the latest batch, so we have one for each of the 26 counties. I am now busy dispersing Ireland-geo-stub. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:09, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * No problem. I'll see what's bot-populable (albeit my offline data's horribly old by this point, so it certainly won't get anything like 'em all).  Alai 19:33, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
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Irish stubs
Propose creating Ireland-law-stub, Ireland-school-stub. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:41, 12 October 2007 (UTC) I have created the school template and categ. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:14, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Likely sizes? Alai 02:09, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * To partly answer my own question, the -school- type is now populated to exactly 60 (and I think there's a few others lurking around, too). Alai 04:19, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The school one seems sensible for an upmerged template, at least, as long as the template text makes it clear these are for the RoI - the law one though is a little more tricky, since it would presumably cover historical laws dealing with the time the entire island was part of the UK. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  02:18, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that the law stub has to be a 32-county one, because as Grutness points out there are many articles on pre-1922 statutes, many of which are still in effect in Ireland, and the same goes for case law. There may at some point be a case for an RoI-law-stub for the post-1922 issues, but I suggest starting with a 32-county law stub.
 * Any objections to Ireland-law-stub on 32-county basis? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:14, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I've no idea how sensible that is in scope or size terms, but it does seem to be making the ambiguity of the "Ireland" element in templates more acute. Not that a sensible alternative immediately suggests itself, but ideally we'd make a systematic distinction.  Alai 17:12, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The ambiguity is not avoidable without a lot more complexity, because there is a large body of articles on Irish law which predates partition. The alternative to having an all-Ireland template is to have separate ones for North and South, plus a parent template for all Ireland. That seems messy unless we know we have enough articles to justify it, so why not start with the all-Ireland template and split later if numbers justify it? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:35, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The ambiguity is avoidable at the template-naming level, which is all I'm concerned about at present. (The ambiguity in general I'm more than cognizant of.)  Admittedly, if we start using IoIreland or some contrivance for the all-Ireland categories, that's inconsistent with the resolution of the articles at Ireland and Republic of Ireland, and if we want to maintain that, we'll have to revisit a number of existing Ireland- templates, and consider renaming them to RoI- or RepIreland-, or some such.  (And in some cases it's as clear as mud which is intended and/or applied in practice.)  If we can't achieve and maintain a systematic distinction, I'd be inclined to say let's try to avoid all-Ireland scopes entirely, and double-stub where appropriate.  (Which will doubtless degrade in practice due to people's invoking a precision of definition that correlates precisely to their personal sensiitivities, but that's true of pretty much any possible resolution.)  Alai 04:59, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem with that is that a lot of those should be stubbed with UK-law-stub... of course, double-stubbing is an option in those cases, but sadly items double-stubbed with UK and Ireland equivalent stubs tend to get into small edit-war flurries. We can try it, see what happens, but it tends to get a bit messy. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  22:32, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
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Zimbabwean stubs
Proposing Zimbabwe-org-stub (National Constitutional Assembly, ZOSS, National Arts Council of Zimbabwe, Africa Center for Holistic Management, WOZA to name a few)

Zimbabwe-writer-stub (Catherine Buckle, Chenjerai Hove, J. Nozipo Maraire, Charles Mungoshi, Yvonne Vera, Onesimo Makani Kabweza)

Zimbabwe-musician-stub (David Chifunyise, Stella Chiweshe, Dumisani Maraire, Dorothy Masuka, Oliver "Tuku" Mtukudzi, Ephat Mujuru)

Zimbabwe-business-bio-stub (Phillip Chiyangwa, Strive Masiyiwa, Mutumwa Mawere, Trevor Ncube)

Just to have a variety of sub-categories for stubs so that our members of WPZimbabwe can choose a category of their interest to expand on. Many thanks for your considerations. Mangwanani 16:17, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * As a member of the WikiProject, I suggest templates for all, but categories for none. They aren't close to numbering 60, but may well be if the project continues. --Thomas.macmillan 17:09, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Support upmerged templates, per Thom, "numerosity" and possible future use. Alai 22:59, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
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subtypes
Oversized. We could just about split out the socialists (59), but I'm guessing we probably want to split by countries, or failing which, regions. Largest country is Namibia (48); that'd make  viable, regardless of how it's defined. I strongly suggest we define it by the UN subregion. (I'll get back to you on numbers for the other regions if anyone is gung-ho for them.) Alai 07:23, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me. BTW, since all the countries in Africa now have separate geo-stubs, those can be realigned to the UN standards very easily if necessary. Mind you, there are so few unsubcategorised stubs there now that it might be better to re-merge them into . That's all a bit of an obiter dictum on the current proposal though. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  23:11, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Either works for me, slight preference for the former. (I won't rag on the BTW, since it does make sense to make a joint decision on these, rather than leaving them inconsistent.)  Alai 23:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Splitting by ideology wouldn't work. The dominant factors in African politics are ethnicity and religion, not secular political ideology. A country's "socialist" party can have its base in one ethnic group, while the "conservatives" will draw their support from another. And the party platforms could be incredibly similar or incredibly different based on a variety of factors, none of which is their nominal standpoint. I'd recommend by region instead, maybe a separate template for Islamist parties (if there are enough) and by country for the larger countries - eventually. Picaroon (t) 05:49, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Islamists didn't seem to come up, so either there's not that many, or else their categorisation is wonky (or a combination of the two). Let's go with regions.  Alai 05:51, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
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split
is getting big - it currently has 340 articles. I recommend the following split: Od Mishehu 23:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * oldworld-monkey-stub/ - 84
 * newworld-monkey-stub/ - 116
 * prosimian-stub/ - 73
 * Honestly, that's really not that big, and it's unlikely to get significantly larger (and certainly not over 800), unless this starts getting populated on some entirely unforeseen basis: there's only around 400 primate species in total.  Have you checked at the primate WPJ to see if this is something they're especially gung-ho for?  Are there lots of specialist editors in any of these areas that would find these particularly useful?  Personally, I wouldn't bother with any of these.  I'm afraid I certainly have to oppose the prosimians as polyphyletic.  (BTW, on a very niggling note, those template names are somewhat suggestive of there being a monkey-stub, which there currently isn't.)  Alai 03:07, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps compromise with monkey-stub? Her Pegship <small style="color:green;"> (tis herself) 20:18, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Also not monophyletic (i.e. not a coherent group as regards current evolutionary and genetic understanding), and also not really needed, for the same reason as above. If one really must split these, I'd suggest oldworldmonkey-stub and newworldmonkey-stub with the first two cats, but I think the best option is to leave things as they are.  Alai 06:01, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
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pharm-stub subtypes
At #4 on the Spit List, the following types all look at least superficially viable, by permcat-count: I don't imagine we'd want to create all of these, so please cherry-pick the combo that seems to make the most sense, not overlap excessively, etc. Alai 04:11, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * 106
 * 86
 * 80
 * 75
 * 70
 * 69
 * 65
 * 63
 * 63
 * You can speedy the analgesic, sedative, anticonvulsant, and antihypertensive types; they were all approved in June. Her Pegship <small style="color:green;"> (tis herself) 04:33, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * This seems to be making the whole stub thing way too complex. Most people probably don't want to remember every single category of stub tags related to pharmacology articles, and will just tag it with the default pharma-stub tag anyways, which seems to be working just fine. The only one that I could even see making sense to separate is the pharmaceutical industry stubs, since it's more business-related and not related to the science of pharmacology. Dr. Cash 04:32, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * 1675 articles in one stub category is not "working fine" in my book, unless the model is "dump and forget". Are there no differential interests of editors within the pharmacology domain?  (Or indeed, is no-one interesting in expanding any of 'em?)  Alai 05:04, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Would the "industry" type be more viable as pharm-company-stub? Her Pegship <small style="color:green;"> (tis herself) 18:46, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I, personally, would support creation of most of these stub types. Lower-level categorization would certainly help focus (future) expansion efforts; judging by WP:PHARM's participants list, there are several participants interested in particular types of compounds/fields, etc., and I do feel creating sub-stub types is a good idea., and , however, should really not be under the "jurisdiction" of the Pharmacology project; the importance of such compounds is more far-reaching.  and , if created, should be subcats of  IMHO. Steroids are terpenoids by the way—too much overlap perhaps? Fvasconcellos (t·c) 20:22, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Shouldn't those mentioned by Her Pegship, at least, be created? Fvasconcellos (t·c) 17:58, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes indeedy. If you'd rather not make the templates, please drop a note & one of us will. Cheers, Her Pegship <small style="color:green;"> (tis herself) 20:47, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * (ec)Yes, I think they should. You make a good point about those that aren't solely pharmaceuticals.  They may make sense as bio-chem subtypes, as you suggest, or we could scope them as, etc, or something to that effect.  (A bio-chem subtype doesn't help with the size of the pharms if they end up being double-stubbed, but as the bio-chems are also enormous...)  I'll look more closely at those.  Alai 21:03, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I've left Dr. Cash a message regarding these "speedyable" subtypes, I'll create them myself if he's OK with it (otherwise we may discuss some more). As for or something—that's a bit too much. Perhaps these overlapping ones should be kept as they are. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 21:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
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, by district
In the tradition of German states, never knowingly just a little bit oversized: 1085 articles, and there's 17 districts. At least some look numerically viable. A total split would run into some very small districts, and nor are there any intermediate-layer regions that I'm aware of. At a real push, the GDR split this area up into roughly three chunks, but that'd be a bit much as regards use of the way-back-when machine. Alai 04:20, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
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Africa-footy-bio breakdown by region
Category is nearing 700 in total, so I propose splitting the category by region as per African politician stubs. None of the current countries with templates are over 60 (Mali (52) and Burkina Faso (54) being the closest. All regions seem viable.--Thomas.macmillan 19:12, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
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Botswana-bio-stub needs a category. What should it be called?
Adding up the templates, Botswana-bio-stub has it 60 and should have its own category. However, I am not really sure what it should be called. Botswanan would be the standard, but it is incorrect, as people from Botswana are called Batswana, which is not really known throughout the world (or on Wikipedia categories, for that matter). Perhaps "People of Botswana stubs" is best?--Thomas.macmillan 03:04, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The permcat's at . I'd either follow that, or else CFR it, and go with wherever it ends up.  Alai 03:55, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd say rename propose a rename of that category to, and base the stub category's name on the result of that discussion. Picaroon (t) 23:57, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't that be confounding nationality and ethnicity? I don't know about Botswana in particular, but it sounds like the Sotho/Lesotho/Basotho problem. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  00:08, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Botswana and Tswana appear to flatly contradict each other on this, which is what I get for using unreliable sources, clearly. This is clearly well above my pay grade, and I certainly can't improve on the above advice.  Alai 06:37, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, hopefully if the permcat is taken to CfD, there will be useful comments and opinions from someone who knows what they're talking about (unlike us ;) Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  07:17, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
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Split of struct-stub
I believe the following will all pass 60 also may proove useful as a parent for three of the above and any national templates people feel like creating.Waacstats 09:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * SouthAfrica-struct-stub /
 * Nigeria-struct-stub /
 * Malaysia-struct-stub /
 * Iran-struct-stub /
 * Brazil-struct-stub /
 * Argentina-struct-stub /
 * Chile-struct-stub /
 * SouthAm-struct-stub /
 * Support all. Iran, Malaysia and South Africa were getting close even back when I was manually counting these early this year. perhaps upmerged Caribbean and Central American templates would be useful too? Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  09:49, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we ought to go straight to national templates for all of South America and just skip SouthAm-struct-stub, but otherwise support all. —CComMack (t–c) 14:14, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. Alai 16:53, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Add to this the following european countries

last one scoped for Republic of Ireland. Waacstats 09:54, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Austria-struct-stub /
 * Switzerland-struct-stub /
 * Netherlands-struct-stub /
 * Czech-struct-stub /
 * Slovakia-struct-stub /
 * Turkey-struct-stub /
 * Romania-struct-stub /
 * Bulgaria-struct-stub /
 * Ukraine-struct-stub /
 * Finland-struct-stub /
 * Ireland-struct-stub /


 * I support Nigeria-struct-stub, I could probably find 60 articles to put that on (there are a good amount of football stadiums with articles.) Should the malaysia-struct-stub supersede my malaysia-mosque-stub proposal below, or should they both be created? Picaroon (t) 23:46, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * When cheking the articles on catscan (unfortunatly down at the moment) I discounted the mosques because of your proposal so there should be eneough to create categories for both mosques AND building/structures for Malaysia. Waacstats 07:51, 17 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Support any which are at 60, but please lets keep the categories consistent! You've got Nigeria, Argentina, Iran, Brazil, Bulgaria, Malaysia and Chile at the noun form, but then Austrian, Swiss, Dutch, etc etc etc. IIRC the existing ones are at the adjectival form, so the first seven I named should be changed. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  23:58, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * And that shows exactly why people should propose and wait before creating. Of course the first group should be adjectices not nouns. Waacstats 07:51, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Adjectival would also correspond to normal usage in all of these cases. Not that "normal usage" holds sway in all portions of the stub category hierarchy...   Alai 08:00, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
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Category:Southern United States radio station stubs Subcat
Since Category:Southern United States radio station stubs is maintained by the stubs creation process, I am proposing to add a sub category of Category:Mississippi radio station stubs to compliment the already present subcats for Alabama, Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia and West Virgina. The template will place Mississippi radio station stub articles into this proposed subcat. As the one trying to resurrect WikiProject Mississippi, there's a lot of organization that needs to be tended to and this is part of that goal. Thanks. --  ALLSTAR    ECHO  07:00, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * There's already an upmerged Mississippi-radio-station-stub (as you know, from adding a permcat to it); I suggest that be populated to the normal "numerosity" threshold of 60 articles before being "downsplit".  Alai 07:10, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Umm, wha? haha The Mississippi-radio-station-stub puts any articles tagged with it into Category:Mississippi stubs and Category:Southern United States radio station stubs and not into any Mississippi radio-specific cat. I could see it being left that way if there was a Radio Stations subcat within Category:Mississippi stubs but there isn't. Actually the same could be said for the Missisisppi newspaper, tv, structure, sports arena, and school stub templates being used already. --  ALLSTAR    ECHO  07:37, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * You'll have to be a little more specific in your question than "umm, wha?" if you're expecting a useful answer. Your comment seems to be to the general effect of "there must be a subcat, unless there's a subcat".  There does not appear to be enough articles for such a subcat: see WP:STUB.  Alai 07:56, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * What Alai is probably attempting to get across (in his/her own inimitable fashion) is that, in order for Mississippi-radio-station-stub to have its own  category, according to stub-sorting guidelines, there should be at least 30 articles tagged with it. (If there were no WikiProject, the standard number is 60.) Currently there are 26 articles; if you can create 4 more I think we can justify the category. Cheers, Her Pegship <small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)  13:47, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't it be terrible to have an imitable fashion, though? We're not looking for just another four, however (otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned it).  The WPJ scope is "Mississippi", not MI radio stations.  There's already a, which at significantly less than one listings page, is not presently remotely in need of any sort of splitting at all, to the point, I think where there ought to be a presumption in not splitting it, even were a > 60 subcat just about feasible (as might be the case with the "media" type currently at SFD (or preferably, a media category fed entirely from upmerged templates)).  I've no objection to templatising everything to death for the sake of symmetry, and in case of future need, but I have the usual standing objections to over-sorting a small number of articles into below-critical-mass cats.  Alai 18:44, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
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, by county
I trust no-one objects to "downsplitting" the upmerged county templates that were (over-)populating the regional cat. (I already have.) Alai 20:10, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
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I've sped this, because: the parent's oversized again, and generally is growing at a madcap rate;  the established pattern seems pretty clear; and because I started sorting these, in the mistaken belief they already existed. (Pesky I-states.) Alai 21:02, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
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Skeleton racers
I propose Skeleton-bio-stub and catscan shows 64 articles for this sport.Waacstats 12:00, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The suggested template name conjures up the question of what we'd call a stub tag for the sport in general, but I suppose we can burn that bridge when we come to it. Support.  Alai 04:00, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I had the same thought but the permcat for the sport is actually at while the article Skeleton is about the bone system. Waacstats 21:05, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Will you CFR, or shall I? Alai 04:44, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Having never been involved in a CFR before let alone started one, I'll let you do it if you don't mind.Waacstats 11:50, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Have sent it to CFR; stay tuned. Her Pegship <small style="color:green;"> (tis herself) 23:08, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Update: The permcat has been renamed to . Her Pegship <small style="color:green;"> (tis herself) 19:00, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
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Poultry-stub
Currently all articles on agricultural domestic birds have to be tagged with livestock-stub which is arguably inappropriate (semantics, but "livestock" normally connotes only mammals), and in any case, livestock is far too broad a category, or they must be tagged with Agri-stub which is even broader.--Doug.(talk • contribs) 05:02, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Permcat-wise, is a subcat of, implying the broader definition.  If the nicety is a concern in and of itself, I'd suggest an upmerged template, feeding into the same category.  If you really want to split them out into a separate category, the question of numerical thresholds hoves into view.  Are there 60 existing such stubs?  Alai 06:18, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * As far as I can see there's a little over a dozen spread between agri-stub, livestock-stub, and various bird-stub subtypes. Probably enough for a template, but certainly nowhere near enough for a category. If livestock-stub was going to be split up (which at 190 stubs seems unnecessary), then splitting the cattle andpigs out as subtypes would probably be a better move, numbers-wise. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  08:51, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe I misunderstood how this works. I really only wanted to have Poultry-stub for now.  I read the instructions above and it said to format the request like the other ones, so I did.  Now I see that there are others formatted differently.  How do I fix?  I do not understand the usage "permcat-wise" nor can I find it on Stub or Category.--Doug.(talk • contribs) 00:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Try Glossary :). A permcat is a permanent (i.e., non cleanup or stub) category. What Alai means is that itself is a subcategory of, so although livestock sounds like it would be mainly mammals, birds are included. Basically, a poultry-stub template sounds a sensible idea, but - given the small number of stubs that would currently take it - it should feed into a more widely-scoped category (or categories) for now (as per the thresholds given at the top of WP:WSS/P). If there are enough articles using poultry-stub, then a separate  will become a reasonable idea, but for now it would be a bit too small. If all you're after is an upmerged template, though, I don't see any problem 9and I've amended the heading to match that - hope you don't mind!)Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  01:13, 22 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Not at all! Thank you. And thanks for the explanation.  I haven't put any time into understanding categories yet, so I guess I didn't know what I was getting into here.  I'll have to do some more reading.--Doug.(talk • contribs) 13:01, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
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Indiana-geos are now oversized; this looks like the logical place to start, being the largest CSA in the state. (Thereafter I'd imagine the remaining large *SAs, and thereafter the informal regions characterising the rest of the state, on the pattern of the couple of other states that have been done.) Alai 20:10, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
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SouthAfrica-sports-venue-stub
Thoughnot exactly proposed, I created this template while splitting the struct-stubs as i realised many SouthAfrica-structs would fit this. It now has over 60 articles so I propose. Waacstats 16:23, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
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Canada-icehockey-venue-stub
The above template has over 60 stubs propose creation of. Waacstats 14:22, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * OMG it is 150+. Sped. Valentinian T / C 21:02, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
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The above cat is getting close to oversize (748) propose the following I'll let the closer decide who wins the almost inevitable discussion as to American/United States and British/United Kingdom. Let me say that these match what is used in the permcats. Waacstats 22:16, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * / US-hospital-stub (297 per catscan)
 * / UK-hospital-stub (113 per catscan)
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Split of Actors
Catscan indicates that the folloeing are viable Waacstats 13:20, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * / Turkey-actor-stub
 * / Brazil-actor-stub
 * I think that by long and numerous precedents, this would be speediable (as would be those below). Alai 18:44, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * No problems here. Speedy. Valentinian T / C 21:15, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
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There are currently 101 pages that link to Colorado-radio-station-stub, which I feel is sufficient to warrant these particular stubs getting their own category, a sub-category of Category:Western United States radio station stubs. JPG-GR 06:08, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Arr, me hearties! (um, that's a support, provided you spell Colorado without the pirate R ;) Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  06:22, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
 * D'oh! JPG-GR 19:10, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I think that can pretty safely be speedied. Alai 21:19, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
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, by DoB?
The TV journos being already split out, there doesn't seem to be a great deal of other possibilities: there's some categorisation into "columnist" and "reporter" cats, but not a lot, and it's not clear how useful that'd be anyway. So what about the usual axis of last resort for people cats: date of birth? Alai 07:21, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
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2 more categories needed
While in the midst of creating struct-stub and sports-venue-stub I created 2 templates which wern't proposed but have reached 60 articles so I request the following categories with maybe more to follow as I work through the struct-stubs. Waacstats 15:42, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
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Japan-route-stub
There are many National highways of Japan that does not have a proper stub type. I thought this one would work, but I would like to here what you guys would think. 03:16, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
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And this along with the one above. This is my first time, so if I'm doing something wrong, please let me know. Thanks! 03:17, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
 * sadly, yes, quite a lot of things. First, as the notice at the top of this page says, you should propose new stub types before you create them, in case there are problems with them. In the case of these, there definitely are. We've recently been reamalgamating incorrectly created US highway stubs back into the (correct) road stub categories - the same should be done here. I've no objection to a Japan-road-stub /, which would cover roads, streets, and highways, but there is definitely no need for a separate national highway stub. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  05:01, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
 * So for now, who should move the stub to its new title? I don't mind moving the stub if no one else will do it, but I also want to know what should I do first before moving the template?  18:47, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Eh... never mind. I'll just move the template myself and see if things go well.  18:49, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks! I've completed the bot-moves and deletions.  Alai 23:34, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
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Split of
Yes, I know, Nigeria-struct-stub was just created a couple days ago, but I think universities and colleges can be split out, as there are about 40. Next most numerous are stadiums, of which there are 27 - not quite enough for their own template now, but someday. So I propose Nigeria-university-stub, using the above category and. Picaroon (t) 22:32, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
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Nearly oversized propose the following and any other similar templates that people feel inclined to make. Waacstats 12:35, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * / UK-Olympic-medalist-stub
 * / Romania-Olympic-medalist-stub
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Near oversized. Propose split similar to US not to sure on the names but I'm sure someone will be able to improve on these. Waacstats 12:32, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * / UK-army-bio-stub
 * / UK-navy-bio-stub
 * / RAF-bio-stub
 * I can't improve on them personally, though if you want to get second-guessed some more, you could mention the proposal at [WP:MILHIST]]. Anyhoo, make mine a strong support.  (No "United Kingdom Army" jokes, please...)  Alai 17:22, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
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Category is oversized (832 articles + 11 temps and 9 cats) the largest country is the netherlands with 58 articles. do we want to create this slightly undersize category, wait until a country gets to 60 or split by some other means. Waacstats 11:54, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd be in favour of either #1 or #3, rather than the status quo. In the latter instance, I'd specifically suggest some or all of the European UN geoscheme sub-regions, with upmerged templates for as many countries as people can stand.  Alai 17:19, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I would be in favour of #1 over #3 due to the fact that the Netherlands are nearly large enough and the category not being excessivly large to be doing something new with (we haven't split anything else by the UN Geo scheme in Europe yet).Waacstats 19:32, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Support #1 per Waac. Her Pegship <small style="color:green;"> (tis herself) 02:19, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Support no. 1. Of course, you could always find a list of venues and make up a couple of one-sentence stubs for any redlinks... :) Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  10:23, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
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Not currently in existance, I've had to use the general stub tag on some articles, such as the The University of Reading Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror Film Society article. Pebkac 17:09, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Any idea on likely like? The orgs are certainly oversized, though it's not instantly clear if this is the best way to spliut them up.  If created, it should follow the capitalisation of the permcat,, but be singularised per the usual convention for stubs cats (to avoid the double -- or in this case, triple) plural, so it'd be .  Alai 19:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm far from convinced as well. There are surely far better ways to split up the org-stubs than this. Quite a large number of clubs and societies are already groupable under subtypes of org-stub (Honor societies, Fraternities, charitable organisations, religious organisations, and the like). For the example given, an sf-org-stub was suggested not that long ago, which met with moderate approval - perhaps that idea should be looked at again. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  00:25, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
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There are now 60 stubs marked with EquatorialGuinea-geo-stub - another speediable one. That will leave only nine African countries without geo-stub categories, and several of them are getting fairly close. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  10:19, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
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-- by DoB?
Significantly oversized, which would be whacked down fairly efficiently by 15th, 16th and 17th century birth subcats, which cover over 450 of them between them. Alternatively, "Tuscan" and "Bolognese" subcats would be viable, and handle at least the immediate >800-ness. Alai 01:19, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd say DoB is a better way to go in general. The only area where painters are likely to be a serious problem WRT current nationality is probably the Flemish/Dutch groups. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  01:23, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
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Nicely oversized, and has branched to subcategories  and, but more pressing than UK is the proposed M URGH  disc.  17:59, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * / Euro-comics-creator-stub
 * Firstly Going by the first template would be FrancoBelgian-comics-creator-stub FB is an electronic group who apparently have nothing to do with comics. Secondly "Oversized" in stub sorting terms means over 800 not the 600 articles here.  Given that I would support the Euro category and template (assuming there are 60 articles) but not the Franco-Belgian ones, maybe templates for France-comics-creator-stub and a similar one for Belgium upmerged to the Euro category. Waacstats 18:24, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose to the needly cryptic and ambiguous "FB-" element, per Waacstats. And can the comics crowd please try to wean themselves off of WPJ links on templates that'll be getting transcluded into articles?  Having said that, since we do have a FrancoBelgian-comics-stub, a "-creator-" subtype isn't entirely unreasonable.  However, since most people have a nationality, upmerged templates (to either cat) seem preferable.  Alai 18:30, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose to the FB- element, per above. Not really that keen on the FrancoBelgian name, though there is precedent. I'd personally prefer two templates (France- and Belgium-) both feeding into the same category. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  07:35, 27 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The end result naming of this is obviously no biggie, and was only put forth as a parallel to US-comics-creator-stub and UK-comics-creator-stub templates. Whatever is wise. Could User:Alai please explain a bit more thoroughly what WP:CMC people should wean themselves off? The French-Francophone Belgian comics culture is a rather unique phenomenon (to which the Francophone Swiss invisibly belong) and dissecting will likely often lead to articles doubly sorted. M URGH   disc.  22:33, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Aha, User:Alai means to avoid links to the wikiproject within the stub template. I see. While trying to learn, I followed a model I assumed to be by the book, but not so.. M URGH   disc.  01:30, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's it. I was especially bemused because the most obvious parent no longer has such a link, but I can see now you were basing it off of the other possible such.  Sorry for my grumpiness on the topic, it just seems to be one of these revanant issues.
 * I understand the rationale for the Franco-Belgian scope, and indeed even for a common template for the existing type. But for people, how common would it be for someone to have to double-tagged with both?  Alai 02:07, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well you're right, when it comes to individuals, the double nationality is extremely rarely an issue ;) (Greg the only on top of my head..) I guess my point is that as articles no longer are stubs they'll be correctly categorised by nationality, but while still stubs (incomplete, unsourced and lacking in several ways) accessible to people working on francophone comics creator articles, it's nice to have these batched together. M URGH   disc.  15:25, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * And that's exactly what upmerger (i.e., separate templates, and a single category) would do, surely. Alai 15:41, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * What can I say. If I understand you correctly, what's the point? You create a bin for sorting stuff out, how much sorting is crucial prior to sorting? I don't have the knowledge to create "upmerge" stubs and would rather avoid instruction creep. Just a simple need, and a simple request. M URGH   disc.  00:45, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * In what sense is this "instruction creep"? You mean the creep in reading existing instructions, as against the addition of new ones?  Or has this become some generic term of deprecation these days?  The point is to keep templates in a reasonably standard format, and secondarily to facilitate re-splitting, should that become necessary later.  To have every other French biography tagged with a "France-" template, but the ones that happen to be on comics people tagged with "FrancoBelgian-" would be needlessly inconsistent to the point of being quite baroque, and makes the lives of people trying to play "guess the template" when sorting to this type further unnecessarily diffculty.  I've no idea what you mean by "sorting prior to sorting".  The solution I've outlined seems perfectly simple.  Alai 01:39, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Good grief. Nothing prevents (and let me assure you there will be) a Franco-Belgian comics creator stub with an adjacent French bio stub, please realise that. This is not the stub template to end all be all, but one of a highly temporary nature that has some specific utility for this particular project in symmetry with other existing cats/stub templates. There is US, there is UK, the need is for Franco-Belgian. Noone insists UK be split to English, Scot, Welsh, Northern Irish at a stub level, yet these eventually become populated bio categories. The point is to have a stub that isn't derived from a person's passport but the culture in which she operates. M URGH   disc.  10:26, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Um, yes it does. The whole purpose of subtypes like this are to reduce the number of stubs in the parent stub categories. Thus, a Foo-comics-creator-stub would deliberately be employed to reduce the generic Foo-bio-stub category. Thus UK-comics-creator-stub replaces UK-bio-stub on articles using it, for example. That's the whole reason why we stick to the scheme of nationality for stub types. Creating stub types based on a person's perceived culture is fraught with complications and difficulties, which is why we specifically don't do that. If that is the intention of this particular stub type, then no, it is not the best way to proceed and - as I originally suggested - two stub types feeding into one category, for France-comics-creator-stub and Belgium-comics-creator-stub would be the correct move. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  00:51, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I must have explained myself very poorly. The parent categories are not, French, not Belgian, nor as such "subjectively perceived to be Franco-Belgian" by undersigned, but a genre irrelevant of nationality. Anyway, explaining and soliciting the blessing of this forum is more trouble than it's worth and obviously we survived fine before and will make do without in the future. Please be magnanimous in noting that the request is no longer at the table. M URGH   disc.  21:59, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Agh. I withdrew the request for just the Franco-Belgian one. As above, I removed it. Not Euro. There was support for Euro was there not?  M URGH   disc.  00:27, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I've re-propossed it at WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals/2007/November. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  00:56, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry that it ended as a withdrawn request, though I understand. The idea of a Euro-comics-creator-stub (as originally suggested) is still a viable one, though, and is likely to be created at some point. Hopefully that will make it at least somewhat easier to find and categorise the stubs. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  23:29, 4 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Ah, that makes a little more sense. Still not too keen on it, but I can see the reasoning. As far as FB is concerned, though, US and UK are the only exceptions to the CountryName-x-stub system, since both terms are almost universally understood in English-speaking countries to mean the United States and United Kingdom. I doubt there would be many people in the English-speaking world who would instantly understand FB to mean France and Walloon Belgium. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  00:09, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * seems I misunderstood again - see further up. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  00:51, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
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This one is oversized so I propose the following also the following may be useful in the European subcat not sure these two will reach 60 so templates only for now cats if reach 60 not to sure on this one but Waacstats 12:43, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * / Australia-academic-bio-stub
 * / Italy-academic-bio-stub
 * Netherlands-academic-bio-stub
 * Poland-academic-bio-stub
 * / Greece-academic-bio-stub would be viable if it included the Ancient Greeks.
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SouthAfrica-rugbyunion-bio-stub
Main category is at 121, I imagine we can find more than 60 stub articles among them.--Thomas.macmillan 20:49, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Support This was not far off when I last counted and given +400 articles in the rugby-union-bio-stub with Australia, New Zealand, Ireland and UK already split out I would certainly not be against a template for this (or France) and category if the figures pan out. Waacstats 22:09, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Support A Japie-stub SouthAfrica-rugbyunion-bio-stub sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  00:06, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
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Repointing of Africa-geo-stub
I'd like to propose re-pointing of Africa-geo-stub to direct it to the main. At the moment, it is unused - and should remain so, given that every country in Africa has its own geo-stubs and stub articles about areas spread over several countries use the regional types like AfricaW-geo-stub. This would parallel what has already been done with both CentralAm-geo-stub and SouthAm-geo-stub and would mean one less category to be checked for stray stubs ever day! Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  22:50, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm of the general view that such moves are potentially puzzling to the passing user, though I see the benefit of it from the "consumer" point of view. What about having each such populate both?  Then they'd show up both where the person applying expects it to, as well as where the geo-re-sorting team will find it.  Alai 23:31, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Mmmm, that's a possibility. We get round that with the SouthAm and CentralAm ones (and also China-geo-stub) with a little note on the template saying "this stub type is deprecated, please use an individual country stub" or similar. But pointing it to both categories would work just as well and may be useful if we even decide to get rid of the African regional categories (which is a possibility, since almost everything in them is now subcatted by country). Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  00:37, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
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Split of road-stub
This stub contains a mixtures of stubs for individual roads and of road transport-related articles. I propose that a stub is created for the latter grouping.--ReddyRose 17:49, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * road-transport-stub /
 * Which would have what likely population? Alai 18:05, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Mmm. I can see the use of this - it would act as a parent for things like car-stub, van-stub, etc... but much of what's in the road stubs section other than actual throughfares is probably undersorted, so I don't know that it would have much other population. It might also provide an idea as to what to do with the long poorly-names "water-stub" - change it to water-transport-stub. That way we can create a parent transport stub category and fix the niggling little hierarchy problems that transportation articles currently have. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  23:53, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I have often wondered why there isn't a general transport-stub. How about road-transport-stub and water-transport-stub, both feeding into /? Her Pegship <small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)
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Science fiction conventions
Though sf-stub is hardly in desperate need of further splitting, with some 500 stubs, I note that over 80 of them are for science fiction conventions. A sf-convention-stub for these could be quite useful... Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  22:40, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Works for me, and it does sound quite differentially useful. Though perhaps on that basis, a somewhat wider-scoped "fandom" type instead (or as well)?  Alai 03:51, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I wondered about that, but thought it might be a little vaguely defined. Whereas a convention is usually fairly clearly a convention, the boderline between fan activity and pro sf activity is a little more vague, especially when it comes to things like publications and organisations. For example, the organisation I know best, SFFANZ (of which, for my sins, I am a committee member) is a fan organisation, yet runs New Zealand's national sf awards (the Sir Julius Vogel Awards), which include both fan and pro categories. SFFANZ might qualify as a sf-fan-stub, but the SJV Awards are distinctly borderline. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  05:26, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * As an activity SF awards are generally "fannish", regardess of who's on the receiving end. The utility of the distinction would be less to do with "fan vs. pro", as separating them out from stubs about miscellaneous fictional works (not to mention in-universe cruft).  I'm certainly not going to claim it's without vagueness, but that's true of many a thing.  In terms of permcat scoping, it'd map directly on to  (not that I'm suggesting a bot-trawl on that basis...).  But I've no objections to the con type in and of itself.  Alai 18:00, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * What about sf-event-stub or sf-org-stub? Covers a multitude more... Anything but sf-fandom-stub (what a dumping ground that would become...) Her Pegship <small style="color:green;"> (tis herself) 21:19, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Just how much of a 'dumping ground' could it plausibly end up as, given that the permcat's at under 500, and this would necessarily be significantly narrower? (An unfiltered count of the permcat would imply around 120.)  Alai 00:53, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I was thinking of the editors who would tag everyone who's ever been in an sf film, tv series, or magazine with sf-fandom-stub. Not to mention the filkers, fanfic writers...the madness... :P Her Pegship <small style="color:green;"> (tis herself) 03:11, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The first group would be cause for shooting the editors in question. But the latter group would be entirely suitable:  isn't that preferable to leaving them tagged with sf-stub?  (Assuming they pass notability muster, and are primarily notable for those things.)  Alai 06:22, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Wellllll...I've been tagging the latter with singer-songwriter-stub or sf-writer-stub. What about sf-culture-stub? (Although to some critics that might be an oxymoron...) Her Pegship <small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)  18:09, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Which doesn't align to a permcat, and seems much vaguer in scope to me. Would it include the cons, or be a sibling?  Is it in fact just "fandom" under a different name?  If no-one is having "fandom" (with that name and scope), perhaps we should call it quits after the cons.  Alai 04:16, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * A sf-event-stub would do rather than sf-convention-stub (though it might be worth making the latter as a redirect), and would have a slightly wider scope, too, allowing for things like Campbell Conference (science fiction). The idea of an sf-org-stub is a separate one, which might also be worthwhile, though I can't see very many stubs on the subject at a quick glance (a sf-magazine-stub, on the other hand, looks distincly viable). perhaps sticking with the convention/event one for now, and then see what's left? Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  22:27, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Not so much things like the Campbell Conference, as the Campell Conference and nothing else (at least at present). There's no  permcat, this generally feels much too artificial as a "union cat" on conventions and conferences, and seems a bad bet as regards differential editing.  "SF organisations" doesn't really cover conventions...  in more ways than one.  Alai 00:53, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
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Split of
The architects are on the margin of oversized again, although I've just fixed a lot of undersorting to the existing subcats, and I didn't even finish with the undersorted UK-architects. However, I think it's time for two new stubs: Euro-architect-stub/, and Italy-architect-stub. CatScan is still down, but Cattersect shows 59 Italian architects; I'll propose too if we can dredge up a 60th. I worried a bit about the Euros eviscerating the rump category, but I think there are enough Canadians, Japanese, Australians, and so forth to keep things sane. —CComMack (t–c) 04:57, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong support for all of the above, except for the "regional template", which I suspect would do more harm than good in the medium term. Much prefer upmerged national templates.  Alai 05:16, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
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