Wikipedia:WikiProject Transport/Assessment/Goat Canyon Trestle

Goat Canyon Trestle
I am nominating this article for Class-A Review in accordance with the instructions. The article was created on 16 February, and was merged with the article Goat Canyon Trestle Bridge by &  on 22 February. On 15 March it was on the Main Page due to DYK, and was elevated to GA after a review by on 21 March. Article was Copy Edited by on 8 April. It is my hope that this article can be improved upon via the Class-A Review process, and if passed, later nominated for a Featured Article Review.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 16:16, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

(epicgenius (talk) 17:10, 8 April 2018 (UTC)) I have a few suggestions:
 * Generally, there are a lot of very awkward sentences and I would suggest looking them over. This article was okay for DYK quality, but if I were the GA reviewer, I definitely would have pointed out many other issues with the grammar. The prose still needs a little work for A-class or FA quality.
 * I would appreciate knowing the "many" grammatical issues you found. I could find none. Thanks. Twofingered Typist (talk) 19:06, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I said "there are a lot of very awkward sentences", not that the grammar was wrong. On the contrary, the grammar is technically correct, but the article just doesn't read smoothly. For example: (epicgenius (talk) 22:31, 8 April 2018 (UTC))
 * One of these was the collapse of Tunnel Number 15 in March 1932 caused by an earthquake. - I personally read that as "One such difficulty was the collapse of Tunnel 15 in March 1932, which had been caused by an earthquake." But the article's wording is not straightforward.
 * This sentence is perfectly clear and follows on from the previous one, IMO.Twofingered Typist (talk) 12:03, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
 * After repairs to the line were completed in 2004, rail usage by the Carrizo Gorge Railway resumed - Or, "The Carrizo Gorge Railway resumed service on the line after repairs were completed in 2004."
 * One and the same, IMO.Twofingered Typist (talk) 12:03, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
 * That's what I was saying. They both say the exact same thing. However, one is more straightforward and the other is convoluted. It's like saying "I ate cereal and milk for breakfast at 8 AM this morning" versus "This morning I ate cereal and milk for breakfast at 8 AM". However, most readers would prefer the first sentence, even though the two convey identical messages. epicgenius (talk) 12:48, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
 * In the lead, I suggest moving the mention of the trestle's construction from the fourth sentence to the second sentence, because the current transition is jerky. Like this, "The trestle was built by the San Diego and Arizona Eastern Railway in 1932 after one of the many tunnels through the Carrizo Gorge collapsed."
 * It makes more sense chronologically to have the RR 1919 construction first I think. Twofingered Typist (talk) 19:06, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
 * OK, but the lead is still missing information like location and length, which would support the "world's largest" claim. I was thinking more along the lines of "Goat Canyon Trestle is a wooden trestle in San Diego County, California. At a length of 597 to 750 feet, it is the world's largest curved wooden trestle. It was built in 1933, as part of the San Diego and Arizona Eastern Railway, after one of the many tunnels through the Carrizo Gorge collapsed. The railway had been called the "impossible railroad" upon its 1919 completion. It ran through Baja California and eastern San Diego County before ending in Imperial Valley." epicgenius (talk) 22:42, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
 * when it was completed in 1933 - who's "it", the railway or the trestle?
 * "Trestle" is clearly the subject - have combined sentences. Twofingered Typist (talk) 19:06, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
 * All right, but it never hurts to be precise. epicgenius (talk) 22:42, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
 * By 2008, it stopped being utilized for rail traffic. could be reworded as "By 2008, rail traffic stopped utilizing the trestle."
 * 200 feet (61 m) in height - better to write this as "200 feet (61 m) tall".
 * The trestle is "above the ground" so used that instead of "tall" which would be used describing a building. Twofingered Typist (talk) 19:06, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
 * OK, so 200 feet high? epicgenius (talk) 22:31, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
 * One of these was the collapse of Tunnel Number 15 in March 1932 caused by an earthquake is missing a period.
 * Sorry.Twofingered Typist (talk) 19:06, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
 * In response to the collapse of Tunnel 15, the trestle was built - I suggest "The trestle was built in response to the collapse of Tunnel 15".
 * This wording follows from the previous paragraph, but six of one... Twofingered Typist (talk) 19:06, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
 * In 1951, scheduled passenger service over the trestle ended, with intermittent freight traffic continuing when the railroad was not closed due to damage - This is unclear. Was the railroad sometimes closed due to damage, and intermittent freight traffic used the trestle when it was not closed? Or was it the case that passenger service ended due to damage, but the trestle was still used by intermittent freight traffic?
 * Per citation passenger traffic was discontinued - no reason given. Put a period after "ended". Twofingered Typist (talk) 19:06, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Could you clarify this? Thanks. epicgenius (talk) 22:31, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Restoration of the railroad did not resume until 2003.[22] In 1999, Huell Howser visited the trestle and filmed an episode about it for the public television series California's Gold. - If you are going to describe this chronologically, you should reverse the order of the two sentences.
 * Combined sentences to maintain logical flow.Twofingered Typist (talk) 19:06, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
 * A HO scale replica of the trestle can be seen in use in the San Diego Model Railroad Museum. [...] At the same museum is a N scale replica of the trestle, based on a 1855 surveyed route. - (1) I'd suggest "The San Diego Model Railroad Museum hosts a HO-scale replica of the trestle." and "The museum also contains an N scale replica of the trestle, based on a 1855 surveyed route." respectively. (2) What is the HO and N scale ratio? I know these are railroad ratios, but what is the actual mathematical ratio? Such a description would be very helpful.
 * There are WP links...but fine for clarity for HO, I guess. The problem with N scale is there are several which would be impossible to add for clarity. Putting HO in and not N would look odd, IMO. Have added "smaller" to N scale to distinguish the two. Readers can use the links if they want more info.Twofingered Typist (talk) 19:06, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia links might suffice for C-class or maybe B-class, but not for A-class or higher. A short description would help. It could be very short, like two words, or you can just note that N and HO are rail gauge scales. However, not every reader is going to click on the link; they may close the page, still confused about which scale you're referring to. epicgenius (talk) 22:31, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
 * And also, Engineers called the route "impossible" as it crossed the Colorado Desert and through the Jacumba Mountains.. This doesn't answer why exactly was this route impossible.
 * This article would need a few more details to be FA-class, such as a more detailed description of the trestle's design. "Surrounding environment" is pretty short, as is "Replicas". Could more details be added on either topic?

epicgenius (talk) 17:10, 8 April 2018 (UTC)


 * I assume since this review was sent to me I am expected to respond. (I have not been involved in a class review before this.) Please see my notes above. In response to the review several changes were made to the article. Do let me know if there is anything else I can do. Twofingered Typist (talk) 19:06, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
 * (Note: I formatted your comments above so I could reply to them easily. epicgenius (talk) 22:31, 8 April 2018 (UTC)) Generally, A-class reviews are more comprehensive than GA class, since any uninvolved editor can leave feedback on an A-class review, and A-class and FA-class reviews are more rigorous than a GA-class review. A-class reviews are basically one step below FA-class reviews, in that in a FA review, it is expected that no important details are left out of the article (as I pointed out above, this is missing some info about the trestle's design). epicgenius (talk) 22:46, 8 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Your exact words in your initial assessment were "I definitely would have pointed out many other issues with the grammar." I'm glad to read this is actually not the case. I understand the points you are raising concerning the content and it would seem it's now up to to provide the details needed to improve the article. Twofingered Typist (talk) 11:56, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I guess most of the grammar issues I brought up are regional stylistic differences. But there are still significant gaps regarding the content, which I guess is my main issue. epicgenius (talk) 12:48, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I have made many of the changes that were requested above. As for the "impossible railroad", there is plenty of references about that but that is largely about the San Diego and Arizona Railway. The San Diego and Arizona Eastern Railway is a successor railway using the same rails (and the trestle). I can include information about its difficult construction, but there is already a cited sentence in the background as to why it was called "impossible".
 * As for content regarding the surrounding environment, I created an article Goat Canyon (Carrizo Gorge) which covered that subject. I can include information from it in this article if that is what is needed. As for the replicas, I only provided information about the model railroad replicas that were available from reliable sources. I am sure I can find more, but from what I could find, there isn't much else that is available online. I can speak to the museum and get offline information, but I doubt that primary sources would be good for a GA or better article.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 02:33, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Your edits have been helpful. However, I'd like to see more details on the design of the trestle itself. That was my main complaint about the content. epicgenius (talk) 00:33, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Such details appear to not be readily available to the public, such as who the designer or architectural firm was, etc. but I will see what I can dig up.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 01:34, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I have added all I can find of what was online. I am beginning to contact Pacific Southwest Railway Museum, who has a cache of documents from the San Diego and Arizona Railway in Campo, California. This will require some time to sift through (if I get access) to get the information being requested about specific design documents of the trestle, if they still exist.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 06:50, 13 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Coverage of the tunnel collapse and the need for the trestle is scant. The trestle also has an unusual fire suppression pre-emptive water sprinkler system, which ought to be covered too. Particularly because, AIUI, this involved having a resident caretaker living alongside it. Andy Dingley (talk) 02:28, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I couldn't find significant information about the 1932 tunnel collapse, and included what I could find online. Having been to the trestle, you're right about the fire suppression system, I will see what I can find.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 02:35, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I have added information about the SP Tank Car, but from what was available online, only one I would consider a reliable source.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 00:11, 12 April 2018 (UTC)