Wikipedia talk:Administrators' noticeboard/Δ

Bot code extends policy, like DRM extends copyright law
As Larry Lessig discusses in Code and Other Laws of Cyberspace, software code can become part of the "law" by which users of Internet-based systems must live. The usual example of this argument is digital rights/restrictions management (DRM), wherein copyright law is not merely enforced but enhanced by technological copy-prevention systems.

What we have here is something similar to DRM. A bot designed to enforce policy is accused of overreaching, of tagging for deletion images that are in fact in compliance with those policies. Just as DRM restricts actions that are not really in violation of copyright, this bot stands accused of restricting images that are not really against policy.

One proposed solution to this controversy is to open the code to inspection and comment. This will allow those concerned with the bot's operation to propose (or, by consensus, to require) patches -- rather than merely pleading with the bot operator to make bug fixes. Insofar as the bot works to enforce and extend Wikipedia policy, this would seem to ameliorate the problems. --FOo (talk) 21:32, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not seeing it, I guess. If the policy requires a fair use rationale template that must be machine readable, an image lacks such a template and is subsequently tagged... How is that an expansion of the policy rather than an enforcement? In cases where a tag is mistakenly applied it isn't an extension of policy to images that aren't in violation - its a bug. Avruch  T 21:52, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * "If the policy requires a fair use rationale template that must be machine readable" — actually, it doesn't. That may be part of the problem, but it doesn't say that.  &mdash; Arthur Rubin |  (talk) 22:53, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * But the bot does not look for templates, what the bot does check for is WP:NFCC a key part of the policy. βcommand 22:55, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Apart from single use images.MickMacNee (talk) 22:59, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * what are you talking about? βcommand 23:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The bot does not detect the presence the used here link on a free use claimed image where a single rationale is provided. MickMacNee (talk) 23:03, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * the bot does not work with free use images. The bot does work with non-free images. if you are referring to the file links section, that cannot be part of a rationale. βcommand 23:38, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I meant fair use of course. And why not? A single use claim and a link to the usage, verifiable and acceptable in law. MickMacNee (talk) 23:42, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * But that is where you are mistaken fair use is not non-free content. the use of non-free content is a lot stricter than that of fair use. question, I write a rationale for an image and its use on page A, but dont state the page name in the rationale, and later another user adds it to page B, without a rationale and then it gets removed from page A, does the rationale for page A good for its use on page B? the answer to that question is no. that is why we require non-free rationales to include the name of the article for which it is for (WP:NFCC) βcommand 23:47, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course I meant non-free, not the others. And I now see the point in that case. Now why couldn't that have been explained a few days ago, or placed on a FAQ about NFCC10c? That is not exactly a scenario most people would appreciate when looking at thier image page, I certainly didn't. MickMacNee (talk) 23:55, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I asked Beta on IRC about notifying projects of images as well, and he told me that the bot checks the edit box text, not the HTML or query API. Will (talk) 23:23, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Precisely. Just the sort of thing you might want to know when attempting to understand that situation.MickMacNee (talk) 23:26, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It's unfortunate, because project notification would get images tagged so much faster. It's because coding to do a search for HTML, especially for specific links, is harder than searching for "Article = Foo " or "Fair use (rationale) for Foo " in an edit box. Will (talk) 23:48, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Sceptre, Ive been working on project notices, its just very very difficult. as for what the bot looks for you dont need links or the article= parameter. all you need is the exact name (or redirect to) the article in question. βcommand 23:51, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Real avoidance of drama
How about we keep this page running through March 2008 (maybe even start archiving bits of it manually to the AN/ANI archives - that will be a problem, both AN and ANI threads have been brought here), as it is quite nice not having the forest fires on AN and ANI. What do people think? After March, we can go back to normal. Carcharoth (talk) 17:01, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Plus put a notice on AN/ANI directing people here? Carcharoth (talk) 17:01, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Merge
There's absolutely nothing that should be discussed here and cannot be discussed on User talk:Betacommand. --TS 00:17, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Object That page is full of specific incident matters, and beta deletes threads, often after less than 5 minutes, as he is entitled to do on his own talk page. It is completely the wrong place for the wider discussions for which there is evidently a huge appetite. How many kbytes have you just archived (rather prematurely, but there we go)? Johnbod (talk) 00:34, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I dont delete comments. I do archive often. βcommand 00:44, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok; anyway, they go. Johnbod (talk) 02:38, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

oppose, just another attempt to kill the debate. MickMacNee (talk) 17:29, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Would kill the entire discussion because it's pretty hard to have any kind of constructive discussion over there.  Enigma  msg! 17:46, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Attempt to end discussion. Not to mention that these are ANI discussions which were moved here to keep them all in one place, hence the subpage (and because half of ANI was Betacommand stuff). It doesn't belong on a user talk page.  .: Alex  :.  20:00, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I have removed the tag per WP:SNOWMickMacNee (talk) 20:20, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Recent MfD
See also the archived discussion here regarding betacommandbot and NFCC10c

should not be in the lead. Dont add it unless there is consensus. βcommand 21:42, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Similarly, do not remove it without consensus. MickMacNee (talk) 21:46, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * it is not approperate for a lead section, stop your harassment and attacks. it will be removed until until there is consesus for it. that should not be in a lead section.  βcommand 21:49, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Stop your unwarranted allegation of attacks. MickMacNee (talk) 21:51, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Personally, I don't feel it is required although it may be useful on this page, the talk page. Does the MfD add context or information to the page itself?  I tend not to think so.  It is about the page and hence I think it belongs here.  x42bn6 Talk Mess  21:55, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That page is central to this whole page, not just the talk page, attempts to hide it are just that.MickMacNee (talk) 21:59, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * See talkpages. That's the end of revert warring over that. Black Kite 22:02, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I absolutely object to the the hiding behind 3RR by certain editors to justify the obfuscation of that page. The page was absolutely not deleted, and any attempts to say so are a complete abuse of process. MickMacNee (talk) 22:04, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * MickMacNee, read the MfD closure it was a delete/redirect close. stop trolling and move on. βcommand 22:06, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * And still you lie. It was closed as re-direct. Nothing more, nothing less, despite what you would like to have happened. MickMacNee (talk) 22:07, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, it was a redirect. We don't slap wikilinks to redirect discussions on articles that have been made the targets of redirects, and project-space pages are no different. Black Kite 22:11, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I am inclined to take it to DRV then, as it is quite clear that page does not deserve summary invisibility on the whim of betacommand. MickMacNee (talk) 22:13, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Betacommand has nothing to do with it. It was closed as redirect by an uninvolved administrator. Black Kite 22:17, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Accordingly raised at ANI. MickMacNee (talk) 22:23, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * And archived to AN/B, where it should've been raised. Black Kite 22:27, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No, let's be clear, this is a user issue, not a bot issue. MickMacNee (talk) 22:28, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) No, let's be even clearer, it's your interpretation of a user issue, and given your 6RR earlier, I'd seriously consider whether another tendentious thread at ANI is really in your current interests. Black Kite 22:33, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If it turns out not to be in my interests, then I guess everyone will see where the project stands with regards to the actions of one user. MickMacNee (talk) 22:35, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I still fail to see how the MfD is "central" to this page. It was a discussion on whether a page that was similar to this one should be deleted/merged/redirected/blanked etc. and to me is unrelated to the workings of this page other than the fact the arguments are similar.  Could anyone answer this question for me?  x42bn6 Talk Mess  22:37, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * its MickMacNee's pet attack page. βcommand 22:38, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Evidence if it were ever needed for the bad faith reasons for warring over it. MickMacNee (talk) 22:41, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * For a start that page pre-dated this one. MickMacNee (talk) 22:38, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Then why must one link the MfD, and not that page itself? x42bn6 Talk Mess  22:40, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The page was redirected to this one. Since that was an MfD decision, MickMacNee has attempted to end-run round policy by linking to the MfD argument itself.  As I said - we don't do that. Black Kite 22:42, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree, but I was waiting on MickMacNee's response to it. x42bn6 Talk Mess  22:42, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * So who decided the whole page could just be vanished? That certainly was not the outcome of the Mfd as far as I can see. MickMacNee (talk) 22:44, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * What does that have to do with this? The result of the MfD was to protect and redirect, but this has nothing to do with putting it on this page.  x42bn6 Talk Mess  22:46, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * So why protect and re-direct, why not just outright delete? There is a difference, and an adequate reason for the difference. betacommand's actions amount to a 'delete' result, which it absolutely was not. MickMacNee (talk) 22:55, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not interested in what the result of the MfD is. I want to know why you want the notice at the top.  x42bn6 Talk Mess  22:57, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * x42bn6, hes just pissed that his attack page got removed. and he no-longer has a biased place to vent his BS. As for a redirect vs delete, a redirect protect is a deletion while still maintaining history. βcommand 23:06, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You seriously can't help yourself from turning this into a you and me issue, rather than address everybody concerned in that discussion. MickMacNee (talk) 23:09, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I would have thought one follows the other. MickMacNee (talk) 23:00, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Is there a point in notifying users about a page that redirects to this page? Deletion of a notice does not imply the redirect was deleted at all - there's something I'm missing here. x42bn6 Talk Mess 23:06, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * DRV listed anyhow. MickMacNee (talk) 23:07, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * And once again, how is this related? x42bn6 Talk Mess  23:15, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * x42bn6, its not related to this page, MickMacNee just likes harassing me. βcommand 23:17, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Another accusation. MickMacNee (talk) 23:18, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Betacommand, I understand you're a little frustrated at the moment, but could you stop inserting these comments? I still fail to see why MickMacNee wants the notice on the top, as opposed to you writing why you think it is so, so that it distracts him from answering the question.  x42bn6 Talk Mess  23:25, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The link served as a record of the discussion, which went on longer than any other BCB discussion, just not in the direction he would have liked. MickMacNee (talk) 23:31, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Alright, so you want this notice at the top to tell people of another discussion that occurred about another Betacommand(bot) issue. However, there are lots of incidents regarding this user - should you stick all these on top of this page?  To me, this page is meant to be WP:AN/I but for Betacommand(bot) issues because there seem to be numerous ones every now and again.  It is not some sort of RfC about Betacommand which may be easier.  It is simply a list of issues related to Betacommand.  x42bn6 Talk Mess  23:38, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That's where you are wrong, it is a discussion about the bot, despite what betacommand says, which is why he wants it dissappeared. This does not happen to any other historical discussion of this type. At the very least it should have been transferred here, because this page was created after that page was created, a fact again which certain people want to be forgotten. MickMacNee (talk) 23:43, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It is not a discussion about Betacommandbot. If you wish to discuss Betacommandbot, then there's RfCs although I don't really like user-conduct RfCs which really end up quite nasty.  This page, like similar subpages (Administrators' noticeboard/Wiki editor DonFphrnqTaub Persina, for example) are simply to organise issues related to Betacommand(bot) because it may be more useful for other users rather than flood one page with lots of them.  x42bn6 Talk Mess  23:52, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It was a discussion about the bot, unless you didn't read it. MickMacNee (talk) 23:58, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * which is what this is. βcommand 00:10, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I am aware that the page that was MfDed was about Betacommandbot, but this one isn't. It is in danger of becoming one where it shouldn't be, but this is about noticeboard issues about Betacommandbot, as opposed to Betacommandbot itself.  x42bn6 Talk Mess  00:29, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * A subtle distinction that was actually trying to be addressed by the page, before it was shut down. MickMacNee (talk) 00:35, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * But that has nothing to do with the notice at the top of this page. If such a page did exist, then perhaps a link might be useful, but such a page does not exist (any more), but linking to an MfD leaves a bad taste in my mouth.  It's a bit like saying, "There was a page for discussing Betacommandbot, but it was deleted."  I feel this is unhelpful to say the least, although the notice should be fine on this page, the talk page.  x42bn6 Talk Mess  01:05, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Some content merged from Wikipedia talk:Bots/BetaCommandBot and NFCC 10 c

 * This is an atttempt to merge some useful content from Wikipedia talk:Bots/BetaCommandBot and NFCC 10 c. The following was copied from this page version just before the redirect was enacted. Some of the less helpful or off-topic comments were removed or refactored.

List of previous debates
I can list previous debates here from WT:NFC. I can also find some from WP:AN and WP:ANI. This may turn out to be a request for comments style thing, but I hope that something useful can be worked out. sentence removed Carcharoth (talk) 16:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * reply removed

Not all to do with BetacommandBot. More discussions exist in those archives and on AN and ANI. Carcharoth (talk) 18:10, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * intermediate comments removed
 * Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 26
 * Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 27
 * Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 27
 * Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 28
 * Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 30
 * Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 30
 * Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 31
 * Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 31
 * Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 31

Merging
What are the thoughts on merging this page to Non-free content criteria compliance? I think they both can cover the issue at hand, and with a less pointy purpose and title.  MBisanz  talk 04:09, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Not a straight merger, please. Maybe a subpage there? Carcharoth (talk) 10:49, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That would work, say Non-free content criteria compliance/Subsection 10c Compliance?, I just really really don't like the title of this page. Or that its nutshell is "The issue is with the bot and its NFC10c operation only, not policy" or that it has a "Statement of issues with BCB" section.  If I were BC I'd have flamed this talk page and taken it to WP:ANI as an attack page.  The whole reason we have the complex process at RFC (evidence, certifying users, etc) is that calling for action based on a users behavior is a rather serious thing as its far to easy to type in words that would hurt another user and their reputation.  Also, I'll note that in this case I don't believe the starting party contacted BC or that there is a direct allegation that he's violated a policy.  I know you've been above this, creating a neutrally worded and purposed page, but it just really annoys me when policies are skirted in the name of expedience, as we've seen in enough Arbcoms.  BTW, I've asked at WP:BN if the crats would recognize a consensus at one of these discussion pages as actionable in their role of overseeing bots.   MBisanz  talk 11:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I wanted to incorporate (with evidence) some of the points raised here in the "background" section of the page I started, but seeing the reaction this page has provoked, I'm no longer sure that this is a good idea. I still firmly believe that a humane bot operation can help with Wikipedia and images, and that Betacommand and his supporters need to step aside and let a new process emerge for dealing with image compliance. Carcharoth (talk) 15:15, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Don't understand the purpose...
...of moving archived incidents mentioning Delta from ANI to here. I'm not talking active incidents where discussion is still taking place, but actual closed incidents. If they happened on ANI, they should remain in ANI's archive and at most get a link from this page's archive. If they are currently running on ANI and someone moves them to here, then they could be archived here.

If we absolutely need to move every delta-related incident from ANI here, and it is already archived on ANI...why doesn't it just go into the archive here? Syrthiss (talk) 14:30, 1 June 2011 (UTC)


 * This page is here to aggregate a log of Delta-related incidents, so yes, any discussions about him on ANI should be mentioned here in some shape or form, ideally before the discussion there closes. I don't see anything particularly wrong with copying them over to the 'main' page here, as they'll get auto-archived in a week or so anyway. Jpatokal (talk) 23:07, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia:AN/? listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect AN/?. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. &#8211; MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 01:39, 9 June 2019 (UTC)