Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Archive 12

request help regarding a personal attack
I am troubled by this posting directed against me. I personally experience it as mean and hurtful and unfair, and it is probably in violation of Wikipedia policy on No Personal Attacks. It is clearly derogatory and intended to be divisive. If it stands it will tend to harm "the Wikipedia community and the collegial atmosphere needed to create a good encyclopedia". I wonder if an experienced person would see their way to removing the posting or taking other sensible action.

This ARCA Talk page is not the normal place to bring up a new issue, but I am trying here as a way to reach current and past arbitrators and others experienced in dealing with long-running disputes, without bringing in a lot of new people at wp:ANI or wp:AN. I'd rather not bring it up at the Talk page of WikiProject NRHP, to avoid dragging that group down with new depressing contention if possible. New and old NRHP editors should not have to take sides. And this relates to:
 * ARCA concluded May 2016 which removed a ban on NRHP editing except continued to restrict on new articles
 * ARCA concluded November 2016 which suspended the restriction on new NRHP articles (to expire in 6 months, which I happened to grumble about here, because I thought that the whole thing should have been over already).

I don't know what Dudemanfellabra takes issue with. After the May 2016 action, they and I discussed my further developing old NRHP stub articles at my Talk page, archived here, and they ran a report providing me a big list of the old articles, and they subsequently edited no further in Wikipedia until just now. I proceeded to improve many of those NRHP articles, working in batches such as worklist for Iowa (finished), worklist on Georgia and Nebraska (finished with respect to articles created by me, ongoing about short articles created by others), and this on Puerto Rico, Utah, Montana (ongoing). I have somewhat improved more than 1/2 of the big list. I have participated collegially at WikiProject NRHP's Talk page, as can be seen at wt:NRHP and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places/Archive 64. Since November I have also created some new NRHP articles, some within The 50,000 Challenge/Pacific Northwest, about which I have received no comments from anyone, besides thanks. I have also added to help document wp:NRHPhelp, including most recently about how to access certain NRHP documents for Rhode Island, Texas, and Virginia. This is the kind of boring stuff that I do. And two days ago I got around to opening Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places/Progress, leading to my edit at wp:NRHPprogress, which was followed by Dudemanfellabra's first edit in months, revising that and one minute later their posting which I find objectionable.

Is this arguably an arbitration enforcement issue under Arbitration/Requests/Case/Doncram, or does it have to be opened elsewhere, or could some short discussion and a quick resolution be supported here? -- do ncr  am  23:17, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * The fact that you noticed your opponent's edit on their user page shows that your approach is unhelpful. Sure, the implication in that edit is unpleasant, but how about some introspection? Johnuniq (talk) 01:59, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for replying, User:Johnuniq, though I don't find that helpful, and I am taken aback by your breezy reasoning. I don't know if I would have noticed their editing at their Userpage on its own, but I was participating in Talk page discussion and editing at the above-mentioned article, and of course i noticed the article was changed by this editor.  It was known that this editor had not edited for months, so it was natural to look at their contributions and see what is up.  I didn't mention that I had posted what I meant as a courteous request to their Talk page, asking them to join the discussion if/when they were back, although I did not expect they would receive the message, as I had checked their contribution history.  So much for the evidence you rely upon.
 * About introspection, yes, I have done that, thank you. There was indeed past disagreement and inability to discuss anything sensibly like in a mediation process.  It remains that the nicely framed, composed statement is a personal attack that undermines collegiality in the whole area of editing. -- do  ncr  am  03:20, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I just deleted the problem text under UP.  I have not formed an opinion which ed is creating the bigger problem here but that text was clearly inappropriate for a user page. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:14, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you. -- do ncr  am  15:42, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Tanoli
This is to put on record that khani100 who is registered with different id like col Mumtaz, Situish, zumbe etc have been successful in distorting the Tanoli page by systematically rejecting citations taken from the renowned books etc on one pretext or the other and reduced the article to none. The arbitration committee is requested to intervene and restore the article to original shape dully supported by the citatations. Failing which I fear that users will lose their confidence in the Wikipedia Fahad AKM (talk) 14:50, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Amendment request: Jytdog (February 2017)

 * Original discussion

Initiated by Jytdog at 21:45, 12 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Case or decision affected
 * TBAN on discussing COI of editors, imposed as a condition of unblocking me, following indefinite block for violating OUTING (notice of that block provided to me here)


 * Clauses to which an amendment is requested
 * 1) TBAN imposed here on 8 August 2016


 * List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:''
 * (initiator)


 * Information about amendment request
 * TBAN imposed here on 8 August 2016
 * Please lift the TBAN

Statement by Jytdog
The topic ban concerns all matters related to COI editing. This includes investigations and allegations against other editors, and edits to the COIN noticeboard and its talk page and was imposed in response to my OUTING violation, which occurred as I was interacting with an editor who had an apparent COI.

I understand what I did wrong in violating OUTING and understand the condition in the initial notice, that if I ever violate OUTING again I will be indefinitely blocked with no appeal. If the committee wishes to understand my thoughts on how to manage the tension between the community values of a) protecting each editor's privacy and b) protecting content integrity from advocacy editing (and the value of privacy is far more fundamental), please see here on my userpage and more specifically the subsection here.

During the time of my TBAN I have continued my work maintaining NPOV and NOT in article content, focusing only on content. However not being able to talk with editors about COI has been like working with an arm tied behind my back. There are times when an editor's apparent COI is very clear and the apparently-conflicted editor just doesn't know what to do, and a simple, civil, and authentic discussion (always starting with a request to disclose any COI, followed by education about COI management here in WP if the person self-discloses, and escalation to COIN if the person denies but COI is very apparent -- all done in actual dialogue with the person using the account) gets things on track or allows the community to look at the issue. I have also watched situations unfold in unfortunate ways, where in the past I would have initiated a discussion with the editor (again, starting with a request to self-disclose, and authentically talking) which often resolved things more simply.

What I did wrong in the edit that got me blocked, was not talking with the editor but rather aggressively make a claim at them that even OUTED them; I didn't treat them like a person at all, much like one whose privacy is protected. I get that.
 * Trypto, I won't belabor this; I hear you, and I do promise. Jytdog (talk) 00:22, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
 * User:Mkdw I was indeed recently blocked for edit warring for the first time, after about 100K edits and about 8 years here. I do have editors writing nasty things on my talk page, as you see there now, related to my regular editing.
 * I acknowledged my aggressiveness issue above. To add a bit more, I would like to offer a statement made about me by User:Robert McClenon who was dealing with an editor who had followed me to the Mediation board. Please see the second paragraph in this diff. (Robert, I pinged you so that if you object to me citing you on this, let me know and I will strike)
 * I do get this aspect of my character, and I am aware of this especially in my COI work (which is delicate and is different from other work I do here; I tried to note that in my opening request).
 * Here are some interactions I have had about COI so you can see what I mean about being careful and authentically in dialogue, in these interactions:
 * There was longterm disruption at William L. Uanna caused by, the self-disclosed son of the subject of the article. This led to an ANI (here) which made me aware of the issue.   Surprisingly nobody had actually talked simply and directly with CIC7 about COI in WP, so I did, here and that discussion has for the most part made things manageable, as far as I know.  (I haven't checked in on it for 6 months).
 * User_talk:Fowlia
 * User_talk:Dcbennett2
 * User_talk:Jason_Graves.
 * More generally, you mentioned that my interest is "recent", but it isn't. I worked on COI issues in my professional life for many years and have thought a lot about these issues here in WP, which you can (hopefully) find reflected on my Userpage in the links I provided above.  More specifically, I have made 1620 edits at COIN going back to May 2013 (tool results), 115 edits to the COI guideline going back to June 2014  (tool results), about 890 edits to WT:COI since October 2013 (tool results,  and about 153 edits at the Harassment Talk page going back to January 2015 (tool results).  It is true that I haven't discussed the OUTING policy much; the issues are too loaded and discussions almost always derail, in pretty predictable ways. Jytdog (talk) 02:50, 15 February 2017 (UTC)


 * User:Drmies, don't know how I can say this more clearly than I did in my OP. But I will repeat it. I violated outing.  I know that.  I know if I do it again, I will be indefinitely blocked with no appeal. And I understand the reason for that, is that privacy is a fundamental value of the community.  I understand that only on-wiki evidence is useable on-wiki and that erring on the side of caution is what I must do.  Yes.   Please also see this comment I made at Jimbo's talk page, about what you are asking about, which has some nuance that i hope can be heard. Jytdog (talk) 06:07, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Bishonen
As the recent Wikimedia Foundation statement on paid editing and outing has shown, along with extensive discussion by both ArbCom and the community, paid editing and privacy concerns are in tension, and keeping a balance between them is very difficult. Several good editors have fallen foul of the privacy issues involved and, distressingly, have been indefinitely blocked for it. IMO Wikipedia, not to say Arbcom itself, is lucky anybody is still prepared to work in this slippery and generally unlovely area, much less an energetic and effective editor like Jytdog. I find his statement above convincing; please rescind the ban. Bishonen &#124; talk 03:11, 13 February 2017 (UTC).

Statement by David Tornheim
Oppose His treatment of other editors is just as bad as it always has been. See for example as noted by. --David Tornheim (talk) 19:59, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

These two warnings to   and these edits  are a violation of one of his T-bans. --David Tornheim (talk) 20:19, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Tryptofish
In part, I want to say: what Bishonen said. Her argument is persuasive, I think. On the other hand, if I'm going to be truly honest here (and I am), it does seem to me that Jytdog has retained the tendency to sometimes (and only sometimes, because he is often very courteous in recent interactions with editors complaining at his user talk) shoot from the hip and come across as abrasive. (In the latter category, I'll point to some things he recently said to Opabinia regalis.) So I'm conflicted: is Bishonen's argument more persuasive than the argument that COI is still being handled, and why re-introduce a potential disruption? it would be helpful (at least to me) if you could make a serious promise here to take a deep breath and think before hitting the "save" button, going forward, OK?

But I very much want to rebut what David Tornheim has just posted above. That whole business with Fixuture is presented by David as being Jytdog violating his GMO topic ban. For those Arbs who do not have a science background, please let me explain that the edits involve the term "genetic engineering" which is a much broader concept than "genetically modified organisms", even when "broadly defined". And the term only occurs incidentally (sometimes just in citations) in edits that are really about other things. It's really not a topic ban violation. And if we say, just hypothetically, that the edits were about GMOs as David believes that they are, then why is David reporting them? After all, he also is topic banned from GMOs, and has already been blocked at AE for violating that ban. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:07, 14 February 2017 (UTC)


 * I read ImperferfectlyInformed's statement with interest, because it goes to what I tried to say about "why introduce...". I tracked down what happened. As ImperferfectlyInformed indicated, it began with Jytdog's edit summary here: . Looking at it without having been there, it doesn't really strike me as all that harsh, depending on one's perception of "spammy". (I've referred to "spam" in edit summaries myself: .) The discussion that followed is: . I don't think that Jytdog's responses were bad (and he isn't the editor who comments on the editor rather than on content), but this is what the Committee has to evaluate. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:58, 14 February 2017 (UTC)


 * The exact issues that you referred to in the update to your statement are currently being discussed at WT:HA and WT:COI. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:49, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Brianhe
I completely agree with what Bishonen said above. Having worked shoulder-to-shoulder with Jytdog in the muckyard known as WP:COIN, his presence is severely missed. Wikipedia is not improved by maintaining this tban. His actions and words since then, especially in the ongoing debate over how WP:OUTING is currently understood, show that he understands the requirement as it stands. I'm sure there's going to be room for further comments here, but I wanted to get a word in as squarely in favor. - Brianhe (talk) 01:46, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Doc James
We need more active editors within the area of COI editing. Jytdog has made it clear that they will not repeat what got them blocked. Agree that the undisclosed paid editing / outing divide is exceedingly murky but here is not the place to discuss that. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 09:58, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Statement by The Wordsmith
Jytdog appears to be saying all the right things that we look for in an appeal. I'm going to accept on good faith that he means what he says. He seems to understand how to handle these sorts of situations correctly now, so (as someone who has criticized his behavior extensively in the past) I support lifting the restriction. Echoing Tryptofish, however, I would sound a note of caution that Jytdog's aggressiveness is another problem behavior, and I hope he works on it as he says he will. On the whole, the COIN area is better off with his insight than without it. The Wordsmith Talk to me 15:09, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Kingofaces43
Bishonen, Brianhe, and others summarized it better than I could. The block and topic ban really surprised a lot of editors that work on COI because normally in practice, an editor that uses a variation of their name in their username that is reasonably linked to an author of a source the editor is using or an article topic is considered a straightforward COI and not in violation of outing at that point due to the username choice. That's beside the point now though. It's clear that Jytdog is one of the main contributors to educating COI editors on how to deal with that and preventing disruption from those editors in the process. The topic ban arguably causes more disruption considering how much good Jytdog does in dealing with such editors at COIN, etc.

While Jytdog can be short on occasion (I echo Tryptofish on reflecting a few seconds before clicking save), this is almost always (I would like to strike the almost someday) when dealing with extended tendentious behavior from other editors to the point where reasonable people can be expected to lose some patience. Then you get editors that do appear to hold a grudge against Jytdog through battleground behavior and following them around, and attention to that context is needed here with respect to David Tornheim's comments. David was one of the editors that was not topic-banned in the original GMO case, but was one of the many later DS topic banned and blocked editors that were missed that really needed to be removed from the topic to settle it down. That topic ban was in part due to not being able to let go of battleground behavior directed at Jytdog and other editors in the topic.

Now in his statement here, David is using Jytdog's standard warnings to Fixture to try to get them to stop edit warring as apparently poor behavior. That's frivolous at best. On the vague mention of topic ban violation, GMO is a nebulous term (us scientists rather hate the sloppiness it causes), but CRISPR-edited organisms fall in a different category than GMO (basic intro reading on this:) even with Jytdog's broadly construed topic ban, not to mention Tryptofish's comments. Just an additional clarification to Euryalus and others on that. However, by alluding to Jytdog's GMO topic ban, David is violating their own GMO topic ban (not a WP:BANEX instance). Such dancing around restrictions (i.e., clear meaning while not directly specifying GMO topic ban) was also part of the reasoning for David's topic ban. This is mostly outside the context of Jytdog's COI sanction, but since the GMO topic is being interjected, I figured it was worth clarifying for those not familiar with the GMO subject matter and on-wiki history. Kingofaces43 (talk) 16:09, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Statement by ImperferfectlyInformed
The main question in my mind: why is this necessary? Jytdog should able to work without accusing people of a conflict of interest. Focus on the content, not the editor. Perhaps clarifying that he can get involved with COI notified articles would help? I just don't see why you asking/accusing people of a COI helps a situation.

I experienced an abrasive accusation from Jytdog personally in late October (after he was topic-banned in August) when he essentially accused me of being a spammer (by calling the content I added "spammy", see diff) for adding a citation to the corporate website at uBiome. When I reacted with dismay at this unwarranted wording, his response was not exactly apologetic until it dragged out. I'll admit I wasn't perfect in this situation, either - in that I flew off the handle a bit. But the problem is that abrasiveness and poor language breeds unnecessary conflict and damage. Jytdog and I have edited around the same areas for several years without serious conflicts that I can recall, so for him to treat me like that makes me worry even more about the experience of newcomers. I'm hoping that sentiment analysis, mentoring, and additional tooling (with the recent focus by the WMF) will help to solve the problem of abrasiveness in a systematic way, but in the meantime I'm hoping we can hold firm about high expectations.

Before commenting, I glanced through Jytdog's recent contributions and it did seem to me that he was making a bit more of an effort to be courteous and stick to the content (altho it seemed like there there was lots of conflict). I'd rather not see any risk of politeness regressing due to a dive into talking about the editor rather than the content.

Now, I recognize that my comment may seem spiteful, and maybe on some level maybe I hold a grudge. My comment certainly won't score me any points in the small, tightly-knit circle of editors who frequent some of the same places that I do. But I frankly don't care about Wikipedia politics or hurting the feelings of long-term veterans. I'm concerned by the general perception, which is validated by my near-decade of years around this place, of Wikipedia as a hostile environment which pushes newcomers away.

Statement by Beyond My Ken
I do not have much to add, since Bishonen summed up the situation very well. The tension between outing and COI has been a concern of mine for many years now, and the current situation -- where, essentially, one must warn editors about COI or paid editing without being explicit about why the warning is being given -- is very unsatisfactory. Given the current restraints, making a mistake is very easy to do, and some allowances should be made for an editor such as Jytdog, who works very hard to protect the encyclopedia from biased editing. I urge the committee to lift the topic ban. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:24, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Robert McClenon
The statement quoted above by Jytdog, made by me about eight months ago, still accurately describes my opinion of Jytdog. He is a contentious editor in contentious areas that need contentious editing, and is usually right. At this time, I haven't studied the details of this case. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:02, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
 * After having read the dispute, I may not be able to provide a statement that is entirely consistent with Wikipedia policies and guidelines, because this case, in my opinion, illustrates a serious flaw in Wikipedia policies. There is a common saying that assume good faith is not a suicide pact.  It should not be.  However, the policy that the rule against doxing trumps the rule against paid editing comes very close to being a suicide pact.  By giving bad-faith editors and spammers a greater right to edit pseudonymously than the right of Wikipedia readers to a neutral point of view, we are subtly inviting paid editors.  I support leniency in enforcement of the rule against doxing paid editors because I don't support the rule against doxing paid editors.  I don't know if the ArbCom is allowed to take that thought into consideration.  I think that paid editors are parasites on Wikipedia and are not entitled to the right against exposure.  I support the removal of the sanction from User:Jytdog, but am not sure that my support can be considered, because it is based on honorable disagreement with Wikipedia policy.  Robert McClenon (talk) 06:08, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Jytdog: Clerk notes

 * This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).


 * I've changed the name of this request to "Jytdog" for style. Arbs/others, let me know if you have any objections. Thanks, Kevin ( aka L235 ·&#32; t ·&#32; c) 01:49, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Jytdog: Arbitrator views and discussion

 * Support the lifting of the COI Topic-ban, largely per Bishonen., thanks for posting those diffs but they seem to relate to GMO more than COI, and if so are not especially relevant to this ARCA. However please let me know if I have misinterpreted them, as it may require reconsideration of this support. , Tryptofish is right about the occasionally aggressive tone; lifting this ban won't help you much if you get blocked for that instead. Just some passing advice, good luck with the remainder of the appeal. -- Euryalus (talk) 10:23, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I do have my concerns having recently seen you start policy based discussions using out of context and non-literal interpretations. There is nothing wrong with trying to read between the lines and sometimes what is not said is as important as what is said. However, when it comes to reading and interpreting policies as they're written, there is much less room for open-ended interpretation or departing from their literal meaning. You also received a block as recently as 15 January 2017 following two warnings for violating the 3RR, a policy you would be well aware of as an experienced editor. The COI policies, particularly the ones around private personal information, have been of great interest to you lately and the effects of knowingly violating these policies are substantially greater than the 3RR. Would you care to speak about this recent block to alleviate any concerns about good judgement and restraint? Mkdw  talk 01:24, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Let there be no doubt about the original outing--that's what it was. Jytdog, to his credit, does not deny that, but checking comments by others on his talk page from around that time shows some doubt is expressed. There is no need to litigate this. The naysayers here argue, it seems, that Jytdog has a temper and breaks his topic bans regularly; as far as I know, though, he hasn't broken the COI ban and that's what we're talking about here (nor is that evidence really conclusive, as far as I'm concerned). Now, I am not even that interested in Jytdog's temper; what I want to hear, as one of the arbs involved with that case and a sometime colleague of Jytdog, is a commitment to uphold OUTING (a bright line) and to err, in all cases of unclarity, on the side of caution. In cases of possible COIs this means, of course, that Jytdog cannot share what all he might know (and this may mean he needs to stop himself from going fishing, so to speak), and I think he knows that--but I want to hear it, and I need to hear that in order to support lifting the topic ban. Drmies (talk) 05:39, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks dog--and thank you for your service. I support a lifting of the topic ban. Drmies (talk) 15:05, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I am definitely willing to take a removal of the restriction into consideration, but because we are on the topic of outing, you'll understand if I take it quite seriously and need to review things at length. I'm already writing this comment into borrowed time on my sleep, and the next chance I will have to review this is this coming weekend. -- Amanda  (aka DQ) 08:56, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Jytdog: Motion

 * Enacted: Kevin ( aka L235 ·&#32; t ·&#32; c) 15:55, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Enacted: Kevin ( aka L235 ·&#32; t ·&#32; c) 15:55, 21 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:00, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
 * 2) Support, though I think the first line would suffice. Jytdog has made it clear in his request that he understands future incidents will be dealt with harshly. Jytdog, thank you for sharing your essays on paid/COI editing and approaches to handling it, they were very much worth the read. GorillaWarfare (talk) 06:04, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
 * 3) Thank you for your comments . Mkdw  talk  06:22, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
 * 4) Support though per GorillaWarfare I think the first sentence is sufficient. -- Euryalus (talk) 09:49, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
 * 5) Support, agreeing with Euryalus and GorillaWarfare that the first sentence is enough.  Doug Weller  talk 11:53, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
 * 6) Kirill Lokshin (talk) 15:01, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
 * 7) Drmies (talk) 18:41, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
 * 8) On balance I support this, though I think there's a couple of important points to emphasize here. For one thing, you got blocked for one mistake, but you got a topic ban as an unblock condition in part because that one mistake occurred in the context of a history of boundary-pushing on the intersection of outing and COI issues. Second, I kind of wish this were more of a "I took a break from the subject and now I'm ready to return" than a "I've been working with one hand behind my back" thing. Working on COI stuff seems to be a lot like SPI or handling unblock requests, with similar risks of getting burned out from listening to BS a lot. Please go slow. Opabinia regalis (talk) 07:58, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
 * 9) My thoughts are similar to Opabinia's. I was not on the Committee last year and do not have much background on the incident that led to the "outing" block, but I will credit Jytdog's assurance that that issue will not recur. Also, in Jytdog's favor is the fact that as reflected on his userpage, he has obviously given a great of thought to how COI and related issues on Wikipedia can best be addressed, and seems sincerely motivated to protect the neutrality and integrity of our content. That being said, I have an enduring concern that in some instances, our editors active in COI-prevention can sometimes lose sight of the fact that many "COI editors" are also BLP subjects or persons working on their behalf to mitigate legitimate article-content issues. In all but extreme situations, such people should be treated with the consideration due both to article subjects and to new editors. In particular, we should always bear in mind how natural it is for a BLP subject, whose English Wikipedia article is typically his or her number one search-engine result, to come here focused primarily on the article content and not on our internal policies and guidelines. See generally, Biographies of living persons; see also FAQ/Article subjects. I hope that Jytdog, like others active in this arena, will bear this important concept in mind. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:06, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
 * 10) Jytdog has grown from this incident, something we don't see too often. He's acknowledged the issues, taken a step back (relatively speaking, not completely) and reviewed. That, in my opinion, was the intent of the original sanction to force Jytdog to become aware of the issue with the outing that occurred. I'm less concerned than I feel OR and NYB are from reading Jytdog's statements, that said, I do not dismiss those concerns. I'm good with granting this appeal. --  Amanda  (aka DQ) 06:24, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * 11) Mostly per OR and Newyorkbrad.  Ks0stm  (T•C•G•E) 16:33, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * 12)  DGG ( talk ) 05:31, 21 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Abstain

Admin authority on arbitration pages?
I have a question regarding admin authority on Arbitration pages. Do administrators retain their usual authority to enforce Wikipedia policies in relation to edit warring, personal attacks etc on Arbitration pages, or is that restricted to clerks/Arbitrators? By way of example, may I redact a personal attack and warn (or indeed, in appropriate cases, block) the offending user as an uninvolved admin, or should I refer the matter to a clerk/arbitrator? WJBscribe (talk) 10:52, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Unless it's flagrant or immediate action is required, generally it's best to refer to the clerks . Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 11:30, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Or inquire of superclerk. She can't block (shame!), but specialize in immediate action. bishzilla   ROA R R! ! 11:41, 29 March 2017 (UTC).

A question
Currently the page in the present case request states Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter <5/4/1>

The rules for case requests state "Votes, suggestions, or questions that do not fit into one of the previous three categories, such as comments that are not formal accept/decline votes, are taken to be comments that have not cast a vote. Even comments which suggest an arbitrator is inclined towards one or another decision are not taken to be a vote unless it is explicitly marked as such.''

I am curious as to how the voting figures in this case have been reached. The figures do not seem to reflect the actual voting pattern because only one arbitrator has currently voted "accept" while four arbitrators have stated that they are "leaning to accept, pending more statements". Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:21, 1 April 2017 (UTC)


 * The vote indicator is still showing an inaccurate figure. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:09, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I've fixed the tally. You're correct that a few had not been officially registered. Official votes are given bold print although it may not have been their intent to officially vote since they used the adverb "leaning". One of those situations where two formats or practices conflict. Nonetheless, the case is clearly won't reach net 4. Mkdw  talk 06:14, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Responding to statements in same section
Currently, the instructions state that statements should be made in their own section. My question is with regards to answering/discussing that statement. Oftentimes, we just see tons of @user, @user in a statement and have to look all over for the conversation. I think we should allow discussion in one flowing manner, it makes it easier to read and will most likely cut back on side discussions as people try to figure things out. As it stands now, it is also unclear if this is even prohibited. Sir Joseph (talk) 17:16, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Modifying "Clarification request: ARBPIA3"
If the discussion is solely about the first ARBPIA instead of WP:ARBPIA3, may the "3" be removed from the section heading and some subsections? Also, may the link be changed from ARBPIA3 case to the original ARBPIA case? I asked one of the clerks to change it, but I've not yet received a response. --George Ho (talk) 16:34, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Subject: CHATTAR
Dear Arbitrators

I am having a difficult time in resolving an issue which requires your help. I have read the guidance notes regarding sources being referred in articles from Raj times in India as unauthentic which seems to be quite biased in many ways.

There is unlimited amount of data still considered as valid from Colonial times and abundantly available on Wikipedia. Also, it is not fair with authors of that times whose research and hard work is just nullified on the basis that they were born in the times of Raj. Having said that, if an article or research work is proved to be funded or influenced by certain sect of a group or ruling power then it definitely is not authentic.

There was immense research work done in science, technology, judiciary, telecommunication, education, armed forces reforms, social system etc during these times and some of the most prominent authors emerged from the days of British Raj. South Asia of today is still benefiting from many of the good research work done in them times. Our respected colleague Mr Sitush has been constantly vandalising an article of religious and social importance on constant basis. I have tried to resolve the issue with him but he seems to be adamant due to his biased ideology to revert the changes.

Kindly assist us in this regard to resolve the issue, restore the article in original form for further research and referencing.

Kind regards

Rajarule Rajarule (talk) 15:46, 5 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Arbitration is a last resort: before seeking arbitration, please take a look at other ways to resolve disputes.
 * As for the Raj-era sources, the article you are editing is not about science, technology etc. -- it is a caste-related topic. The caste compendiums compiled by British colonial administrators are not acceptable sources for caste-related articles: this has been discussed multiple times on Wikipedia. These authors were civil servants, not academically trained researchers. Their writings were influenced by political considerations: E.g. they talk highly of the castes or tribes that were loyal to them, brand the hostile ones as "Criminal tribes" etc.
 * There is a general consensus that such sources are not suitable as citations. If you have a different opinion, you might want to start an RfC. utcursch &#124; talk 16:46, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Mildly, this isn't really an issue for the Arbitration Committee. The Committee principally exists to resolve intractable disputes over editor conduct; it doesn't adjudicate on article content or the quality of sources. You make a good point that most sources are a product of their times, and may reflect the biases or limitation so the authors of the era. That's true of colonial-era literature in many countries - it shouldn't be immediately discounted or removed from articles, but we should consider it in light of other materials on the same topic to make sure we account for the opinions or assumptions of its creator. If you need a few extra editors to work with you on assessing sources, please consider places like WP:RSN, or projects like WP:Wikiproject History or WP:Wikiproject India. If you're concerned that an article is based in inappropriate sources, but others disagree, you might also take up 's suggestion of an RfC. Hope this information is helpful, and good luck with your editing. -- 07:24, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 May 2017
I am requesting arbitration. Here's the situation: circa 2015 i tried to open a Wikipedia page for famous DJ Carnage. I was, however, rudely marked as "not suitable for an encyclopedia by the user Bbb23, despite the page being created a year later by another user: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnage_(DJ) Now, looking at his profile, it is clear he enjoys classic music and opera, which usually goes against Electronic music. Therefore, in "retaliation" for creating a page for a DJ, who plays music he probably dislikes, decided to mark my page as "unsuitable for an encyclopedia", which clearly makes no sense considering the page was in fact created.

I can understand somebody doesn't share my music tastes, I deal with that every day. However, it is no excuse to prevent the creation of a Wikipedia page for an artist of a genre you dislike. Vthebeast (talk) 07:35, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
 * This is the wrong forum for your concern. Arbitration is an extreme final step in the dispute resolution process, and it appears you have not even so much as discussed it with the user concerned or any other user. Please see dispute resolution. &mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 07:48, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
 * (uninvolved editor note): I do like both styles of music (why not?) and highly doubt that this experienced administrator would like every electronic music article deleted for WP:IDONTLIKEIT... I wholeheartedly agree with Kuyabribri.  If the issue is really discussing Bbb23's suitability, then you may try WP:AN, but beware of WP:BOOMERANG.  I suggest to first try anything that doesn't involve the unnecessary attention of other administrators first (I even suggest the WP:Teahouse at this stage).  If you opened an arbitration case, it would likely be closed immediately.  —  Paleo  Neonate  — 08:35, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I sent you an invitation on your talk page. Enjoy, —  Paleo  Neonate  — 08:41, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Boomerang is right. Your two sentence stub contained no sources and was marked for deletion by another editor. You were informed by who and why here with no response from you. Then more than two years later you show up charging misuse of admin tools because of some perceived bias. I suggest you read WP:AGF and participate constructively here by working to improve the current article or creating new articles that meet our notability guidelines. --Neil N  talk to me 08:57, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

Clarification request: Arbitration motions regarding extended confirmed protection (May 2017)

 * Original discussion

Initiated by BU Rob13 at 03:57, 15 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Case or decision affected
 * Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard/Archive_11

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
 * (initiator)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Statement by BU Rob13
Way back when extended-confirmed protection (ECP) was first created, the Committee developed a motion about how extendedconfirmed as a user right interacts with discretionary sanctions and other specific remedies. Among this motion was a prohibition on individual administrators removing "extendedconfirmed" either as a discretionary sanction or to avoid an arbitration enforcement procedure. At the time, this prevented 100% of unilateral removals of the "extendedconfirmed" flag, as ECP was only allowed in areas defined by the Committee.

Since then, the community has developed its own protection policy for applying ECP, but no policy is in place about adding or removing the "extendedconfirmed" flag. I had assumed the original motion prevented administrators from unilaterally removing the flag, since even removals unrelated to sanctioned areas would have unintended consequences on an editor's ability to edit those areas. pointed out to me that this isn't necessarily the case. I'd like to clarify this. Did the Committee intend for this motion to prevent administrators from unilaterally removing the extendedconfirmed flag in all cases? If no, are such removals acceptable in the absence of any community policy to the contrary / do they fall under admin discretion? ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 03:57, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The original motion by the Committee is linked above as the case/decision affected by this ARCA. The original RfC to allow admins to apply ECP to combat disruption occurred here. ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 01:18, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I'll preface this question by saying I'm undecided on this issue, so this is rhetorical, not my viewpoint. Vigilant Admin revokes Disruptive Editor's extendedconfirmed flag because they disruptively edited through ECP (e.g. edit-warring through ECP, etc). Disruptive Editor happens to participate in the Israeli-Palestinean conflict topic area in a constructive manner. Almost all IP conflict pages are under ECP solely because of the ArbCom motion requiring that all editors in that topic area have 500 edits and 30 days on-site. What happens now? Disruptive Editor is functionally topic banned from the IP conflict topic area under the existing ArbCom remedy and its current method of implementation. The only possible method to address this would be to remove ECP from any articles Disruptive Editor wants to edit in the IP conflict topic area and handle enforcement via blocks, but that is inconsistent with the current guidance at WP:ARBPIA3. Basically, I see this as under ArbCom's purview because it either turns an existing ArbCom remedy into a de facto topic ban on certain editors or affects enforcement of the remedy. ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 01:18, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
 * If the Committee doesn't see this as within its scope, I'm perfectly fine with that, but we still need to know what happens in the situation I outlined above. Does an editor whose extendedconfirmed flag was removed for reasons unrelated to arb enforcement become pseudo-topic banned from the IP conflict topic area, for instance, under current ArbCom remedies? If the answer is yes, that's fine, but it needs to be clear. ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 05:04, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Alright, . If that's the answer, I'm fine with that. It probably means WP:ARBPIA3 can/should be re-written to ban editors without the extendedconfirmed flag from editing in the topic area, since that is simpler and more accurate. Future remedies restricting editing in such a way should also use such language. (And to be clear to other Committee members, I'm not and have never asked the Committee to control extended-confirmed protection itself outside arbitration areas - not sure why some people are commenting about controlling ECP. This is about the flag itself, which affects arb matters no matter why it's removed).
 * That's conflating the extendedconfirmed flag with extendedconfirmed protection (ECP). They are different. The Committee should absolutely not interfere with community based extendedconfirmed protection. No-one is arguing that. It's more questionable whether the Committee can/should interfere with removing the "extendedconfirmed" flag, which is currently used as the basis of arbitration remedies. I can certainly understand why arbitrators would say the extendedconfirmed flag is outside their jurisdiction - that is one reasonable view. That's very different from saying community-based extendedconfirmed protection is outside their jurisdiction, which is the only reasonable view on that separate issue. ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 23:59, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Xaosflux
My understanding is that only alterations of this user permission related to arbitration remedies are under the control of the arbitration committee - and that any other use is up to the community. Even directly related to use against sanctioned articles, administrative removal of this access has occurred, following community discussion, in instances where the prerequisites have been "gamed" (not as a discretionary sanction). My suggestion would be that the community should further discuss the revocation guidelines and process regarding this access group and document the administrator expectations. — xaosflux  Talk 00:30, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Mz7
I'm inclined to agree with the arbitrators so far and say that the Committee cannot restrict revocations of the extendedconfirmed right outside of arbitration enforcement.

With that being said, I am not sure I like the idea of removing the flag as an enforcement measure for either community policy or arbitration. The extended confirmed flag was not intended to be a "special" user right, such as rollback, for example. If rollback is abused, the natural response is to simply revoke the rollback right. However, I see extended confirmed differently: revoking it as an enforcement measure is beyond the role that the community had originally envisioned for it, which is merely a technical checkbox that ticks for editors that have made 500 edits with 30 days account registration.

If an editor is truly editing disruptively (e.g. violating a topic ban, edit warring), we would use a block to prevent and deter further disruption. Revoking extended confirmed to respond to disruptive editing strikes me as a kind of "partial" or "lesser" block, which, as far as my knowledge goes, is unprecedented. Despite the absence of community policy regarding this, I would strongly advise administrators to wait until the community has discussed whether this kind of enforcement measure is acceptable before unilaterally applying it. I don't see it as part of admin discretion. Mz7 (talk) 04:19, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Beeblebrox
All other user rights that can be granted by a single admin can also be revoked by a single admin. This is as it should be and I believe we are in the realm of unintended consequences here. I believe the committee should act to clarify that its past standing on this issue either now invalid or only applies to arbitration enforcement actions. Again, I don't believe this was the intent but the committee appears to have created policy by fiat, which is not how it works. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:34, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Arbitration motions regarding extended confirmed protection: Clerk notes

 * This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).



Arbitration motions regarding extended confirmed protection: Arbitrator views and discussion

 * Could you please give us links to the policy pages and other discussions you are referencing? Thanks. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:02, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
 * With regard to revocation of extended-confirmed status, my understanding of the status quo is that it should not be removed as a sanction for poor-quality editing (e.g. in lieu of a topic-ban). However, it should be subject to removal when it was obtained illegitimately by gaming (e.g. with 500 trivial sandbox edits) in the first place; that is a different situation. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:40, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * , these are the motions from immediately after last year's rollout of the extendedconfirmed user group and protection level. (According to the history and Arbitration/Index/Motions, they were archived to the talk pages of the affected policies, but the links no longer work because the talk pages themselves have been archived; the protection policy one is here and the user right one is here.) Grnklaagheq!%$@# why do we do this, in the alternate universe where I'm Queen of Wikipedia, all arb business gets its own subpage in arbspace so it's actually searchable and doesn't have linkrot grumble mutter everybody get off my lawn., your interpretation is how I originally wanted to do it last year (in fact, I wanted to make it technically irrevocable to remove the temptation), but after discussion the conclusion was that arbcom could only regulate admins' discretion to revoke the user right on matters directly under our scope, i.e. AE/DS matters. If an admin wanted to remove the user right due to disruption on pages that are ECP'd for other reasons, it would be up to the community to decide if that's acceptable. Personally, I think that's an undesirable inconsistency likely to lead to confusion (as this request shows). On the other hand, I feel less strongly about revoking EC now that we've had some experience with the system. On the third hand, I'm not sure that my change of view is actually well-informed or if it's just creeping complacency. The proliferation of user rights, and thus of opportunities for admins to try to "pull rank", doesn't seem to have slowed down any. Opabinia regalis (talk) 00:03, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The argument I made last year (which I'm no longer so convinced of) is that ECP would never have come into existence as an option without the 30/500 remedy from the PIA3 case. There was never a community consensus for a new protection level; it was pulled out of someone's ass as an ad-hoc gamergate AE action and worked well enough that it was scaled up the next time a remedy was needed for a topic area beset with persistent, disruptive, and frequently offensive socking. Since the availability of ECP is 100% a consequence of an arbcom decision, that means that a) its general use is arguably still "our problem", and b) the part where arbcom makes policy even though it's not technically supposed to already happened when the PIA3 remedy was passed. As for your specific case, I think it's the same as any other user right - if you're disruptive using it for one thing, and you can't/won't stop the disruptive behavior, then you risk losing the ability to contribute even in other areas where you're not disruptive. We don't talk about a "topic ban on templates" if someone edits templates productively but loses their TE right because they edit-warred to put pictures of squabbling children in the ANI editnotice. Just kidding, actually I'd give that person a barnstar ;) Of course I hope that we see a great deal of caution from admins looking to remove the right for any reason other than gross abuse (500 sandbox edits repeatedly posting "I like pie" and so on), because the ability to unilaterally tell another editor "you're not good enough to sit at the big-boy table" has a high potential for toxic effects. Opabinia regalis (talk) 06:51, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Just to sum this up, I think there is consensus here that removing the extendedconfirmed user group outside an AE/DS context is out of our domain and up to the community to sort out. Opabinia regalis (talk) 23:00, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's appropriate for the Arbitration Committee to dictate how ECP is applied (or removed) outside of arbitration remedies. As I see it, we only have the authority to impose the limits we imposed in that remedy when they are a part of a set of restrictions created for a particular arbitration case. Applied more broadly, this would be a case of the Arbitration Committee dictating policy. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:36, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
 * You do have an interesting point about the possible grey area of an administrator removing the extendedconfirmed flag from a user who has been disruptive on articles that are 500/30-protected (but not by arbitration decisions) and who actively edits articles under arbitration-related 500/30 protection. I think it's reasonable to trust administrators to make this kind of judgment call if and when it comes up, and either err on the side of caution and pursue other resolutions, or at least provide a solid justification for the removal based on the editor's behavior in the articles protected outside of arbitration decisions. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:43, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I think we can provide clarification on ECP in regards to ArbCom remedies and sanction areas only, and I'm inclined to agree with Xaosflux that the community must decide how they'd like to handle it in all other situations. <span style="color:black;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px white, -4px -4px 15px white">Mkdw  <span style="color: #0B0080;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px white, -4px -4px 15px white">talk 03:28, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The main question in your initial statement was:
 * I don't think anyone thought you were asking the Committee to control areas outside arbitration areas, but it's a point of clarity needed to answer your question which asks about "all cases" (including outside arbitration areas). We're saying it's not and why (being it's outside our authority on the matter). <span style="color:black;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px white, -4px -4px 15px white">Mkdw  <span style="color: #0B0080;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px white, -4px -4px 15px white">talk 21:29, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I've been talking broadly about ECP meaning to include XCON, which I could have been more specific or accurate about, because my point is that anything outside an ArbCom area relating to ECP including how the user right is managed should be in the hands of the community. It's for the community to decide, in those cases, whether it's managed at the discretion of administrators or not, and not something ArbCom can answer or motion into existence. The best I think this ARCA could do is highlight that gap and the community could seek to put something in place. That's why I've put an emphasis about jurisdiction. If that makes sense. <span style="color:black;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px white, -4px -4px 15px white">Mkdw  <span style="color: #0B0080;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px white, -4px -4px 15px white">talk 03:20, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I've been talking broadly about ECP meaning to include XCON, which I could have been more specific or accurate about, because my point is that anything outside an ArbCom area relating to ECP including how the user right is managed should be in the hands of the community. It's for the community to decide, in those cases, whether it's managed at the discretion of administrators or not, and not something ArbCom can answer or motion into existence. The best I think this ARCA could do is highlight that gap and the community could seek to put something in place. That's why I've put an emphasis about jurisdiction. If that makes sense. <span style="color:black;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px white, -4px -4px 15px white">Mkdw  <span style="color: #0B0080;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px white, -4px -4px 15px white">talk 03:20, 17 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I agree that in regard to ECP we do not have the authority to control it outside Arbitration remedies that include it. In all other cases it is up to the community. Doug Weller  talk 18:45, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
 * , I don't interpret the motion as preventing " 100% of unilateral removals of the "extendedconfirmed" flag". If we meant it that way we would have worded it that way. We gave. as you point out, two instances of when it couldn't be removed, "as a discretionary sanction" and "as a means of bypassing arbitration enforcement procedures". I don't read that as forbidding an Administrator from removing ECP from someone whose only edits are sandbox edits. At least for me, one of the reasons for 500 edits is to aid new users in understanding our policies and procedures and to interact with other editors, and 500 sandbox or other trivial edits don't do that. Doug Weller  talk 14:01, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
 * While the original motion was designed to handle how the new permission would be handled with regards to ArbCom related matters (with its usage outside ArbCom matters to be determined by the community), its usage and scope has grown significantly since then. In response to your question Did the Committee intend for this motion to prevent administrators from unilaterally removing the extendedconfirmed flag in all cases?, the answer is no (although like OR, my preference as an editor/administrator would for it to have been technically irrevocable). It was only intended to prevent removal as a discretionary sanction or to avoid having to enact a topic ban. It may be worth reviewing the merits of that motion again, as the usage of Extended Confirmed has spread well beyond its original intended use. --kelapstick(bainuu) 04:07, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree with the others. Use outsides Arb remedies is a matter for the community, unless the specific matter should happen to come within jurisdiction for some reason.I'm glad we were able to find something the community considers more generally useful, but that's up to the community.  DGG ( talk ) 01:21, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

"Community encouraged" type remedies
Prompted by the above section, I did a quick scrape of cases from 2009 to 2017 with remedies involving "encouraging" (urging, advising, etc) editors to do some reasonably specific actionable task ("have an RfC" as opposed to "be more civil"), to see what the followup looks like for this type of case outcome. I'm probably missing a few remedies, but more importantly, I'm probably missing a few RfCs. Watchers, feel free to fill them in! Opabinia regalis (talk) 06:02, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

WP:COSMETICBOT update
I'm not really quite sure where to post this, but WP:COSMETICBOT has been updated per this RFC. This is just a courtesy notice to WP:ARBCOM in light of Arbitration/Requests/Case/Magioladitis. I feel this should probably be logged somewhere (Arbitration enforcement log?), but clerks/ARBCOM can handle that if it's needed. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 21:58, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Belated thanks for the update :) Come to think of it, I'm not sure if there's a typical mechanism for logging community actions following a case, but I'll take a look. Opabinia regalis (talk) 04:00, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * After asking around, it's not just me being forgetful; we apparently don't in fact generally log these. But we should! So I did, in the case enforcement log here. Opabinia regalis (talk) 04:25, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

Another update related to this case. Administrators' noticeboard. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 04:17, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the follow-up! I'm almost certain we have not logged future user restrictions that don't go through AE or ARCA. While I'm obviously interested in good follow-up data, I also don't want to unintentionally create a situation where user-conduct cases follow people around indefinitely as public lists of demerits. Will see what others think. Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:53, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The RfC on updating the COSMETICBOT policy which was cited above by Headbomb has been archived. It is now at Wikipedia talk:Bot policy/Archive 26. The  WP:AN decision to ban Magiolatidis from discussions of COSMETICBOT is now archived at WP:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive290. EdJohnston (talk) 16:17, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Amendment request: Motion to establish a central log for discretionary sanctions and associated amendments (January 2015) (September 2017)
Original discussion

Initiated by SMcCandlish at 02:46, 9 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Case or decision affected
 * Motion to establish a central log for discretionary sanctions and associated amendments (January 2015)


 * Clauses to which an amendment is requested
 * 1) "Notifications and warnings issued prior to the introduction of the current procedure on 3 May 2014 are not sanctions and remain on the individual case page logs." (Same link; the material is short.)


 * List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:''
 * (initiator)


 * Information about amendment request
 * "Notifications and warnings issued prior to the introduction of the current procedure on 3 May 2014 are not sanctions and remain on the individual case page logs." (Same link; the material is short.)
 * Amend, to require either: (a) moving of these items, along with the other log actions already moved, into the new DS log pages; or (b) simple removal of the entries if they are not desired in the new log pages. Preferably (b), since similar material does not appear to be routinely kept in the new log pages, only sanctions and page protections, and a few other things.

Statement by SMcCandlish
Leaving behind the notifications and warnings in the "Enforcement log" sections of old case pages, while moving sanctions and all other log actions out of them into the new log pages, has an intensely prejudicial effect against those whose usernames remain in the original case pages' log sections. It gives a strong false impression that: there was a dispute, then those specific users still listed there got warnings, and thus the dispute stopped, because those were the real and only troublemakers. The exact opposite is usually the truth, with most of these cases having a sadly "rich" history of far worse problems and sanctions (often from the case itself, plus years of follow-on disruption) that no one sees unless they go looking in the newer log pages, which the average editor doesn't even know about.

From the original decision's discussion I'll quote the following material about the logging of actual sanctions, because it applies far more strongly to pointless retention of high-profile logging of mere notices and warnings for years on end: "[I]f an editor who is not indefinitely blocked is still around in five+ years, there is a good chance the sanction isn't useful anymore, and if by chance it is, it could be re-imposed. Also, 'may be blanked' should be replaced with 'shall be blanked' ... The may language is too open-ended, it'll be blanked if someone (who?) feels like it? Courcelles 18:11, 17 January 2015 (UTC)" Also: "... [The change] is long overdue and will help the committee, the clerks, and the broader community keep track of what areas are under active DS, where there are current problems, etc. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:33, 17 January 2015 (UTC)" These goals are not served in any way by retaining misleading "scarlet letters" from 2 May 2014 and earlier on the case pages to unfairly target particular editors who were not actually subject to sanctions. "You will be maligned forever because of a random date boundary" is just utterly arbitrary, in the particular, vernacular sense that WP:Arbitration is never supposed to be.

I was previously informed (over a year ago) that these items had not been moved into the log pages (or just removed), simply because a clerk had not gotten around to it. Today, moving them was turned down on the basis that the above-cited motion explicitly excludes that material from being moved. Thus this amendment request. We really are in "it'll be blanked if someone (who?) feels like it?" territory now, exactly as Courcelles warned.

Since DS alerts are only valid for a year, there's no point at all in retaining alert notices in the logs (on the case pages or the log pages) for longer, even if ArbCom wanted to retain actual warnings in the log (which is not presently done). From my talk page today: "The courtesy blanking of more than five-year-old DSLOGs already hides old bans from the search engine, even those that are still in effect. EdJohnston (talk) 02:15, 9 September 2017 (UTC)" So, let's just be really clear about this: People who are still being disruptive are getting a form of courtesy and good-faith relief that is denied to those who are not, for no reason but a meaningless dateline.

Some of the intent-and-effects issues that were not resolved in the original motion weren't resolved at that time simply because of a desire to avoid making decisions "on the hoof" or "too quickly". Two-and-a-half years is plenty long enough.

PS: I have not listed any of the "affected users" as parties, despite the instructions in the amendment request template, because that would be tedious, a long list, and likely have a canvassing effect – there would surely be unanimous agreement from them that they don't want to be scapegoated for life over wrist-slaps that happened years ago. [I have, however, linked the usernames of the admins and [ex-]arbs directly quoted, which should ping them when I save this.] — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  02:46, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

Motion to establish a central log for discretionary sanctions and associated amendments (January 2015): Clerk notes

 * This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).



Motion to establish a central log for discretionary sanctions and associated amendments (January 2015): Arbitrator views and discussion

 * Given the age of the notifications currently left on case pages (more than 2 years old), I wouldn't have a problem with them just being removed and replaced with a link to the central log (as is in the case page template). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:57, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree that having the case pages include three-year-old notifications, but omit current ones, creates an undue weight problem. This set-up has confused me in the past, and if it confuses me then I'm sure it confuses others who spend less time than I do on the arbitration pages. I don't have a strong view on the best fix so will defer to others on that. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:29, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
 * the change seems reasonable  DGG ( talk ) 23:45, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Extension Request
To whom it may concern,

Please could I request an extension with regards to my ongoing Arbitration topic.

Thanks.

Zoyetu (talk) 11:13, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Can this process be split into subpages?
Having Arbitration/Requests/Case on your watchlist because you're involved in a case is hard enough without multiple cases being discussed on that page with no clear mark in the edit summary to identify comments to different cases. Systems like WP:DYK handle this much better by having a separate page for each discussion, which makes it a lot easier to just follow that discussion without distractions from others. Would it be possible to implement something like that here as well? Thanks. Mike Peel (talk)
 * I'm working on it at the moment. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 12:40, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Mike Peel (talk) 15:13, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Comments on possible motion by other editors
Nobody has mentioned the discussion at Village pump (policy)/Archive 118 and I'm not sure why. 2A00:23C0:7F00:C401:2975:40AE:C049:EC9A (talk) 13:16, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I can't see the relevance of this in the current situation. Links to Wikidata are often included alongside the content (see South Pole Telescope as an example), which was what was being proposed there and not really discussed. Having links to Wikidata in the infoboxes that use Wikidata doesn't seem to be controversial (although discussions about exactly how to do those links do happen). Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 13:44, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Crosswiki issues: Motion (November 2017)

 * Original discussion


 * Enacted: Kevin ( aka L235 ·&#32; t ·&#32; c) 22:15, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Enacted: Kevin ( aka L235 ·&#32; t ·&#32; c) 22:15, 27 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Supporting this approach, for a couple of reasons. First, as I mentioned above, I think that opening a broad case about Wikidata on the basis of what was originally a narrow request about user conduct isn't quite the best start. We've had a lot of discussion about case scope over the last couple of years, and while we've sometimes accepted a broad request but given it a narrower scope, I can't think of a recent example where we accepted a narrow request but gave it a broader scope. I think that puts the filer in a difficult position and it has the potential to skew the evidence if the original request sets the tone. More significantly, the broadened scope directly overlaps with an ongoing community process (the draft RfC being prepared), which we weren't asked to intervene on. I'm open to tweaking the details (length of the sunset clause, for example) and I can say for sure that I'd accept a later request making the case that the RfC was foundering or that bad conduct was continuing there. But I think it's reasonable to give that existing effort a shot, with some extra tools to keep things on track, before dragging everyone into a big case. Opabinia regalis (talk) 19:59, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
 * 2) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:03, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
 * 3) Oops, thought I'd already supported this. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:50, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * 4) For lack of another  way to handle it.  DGG ( talk ) 13:57, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * 5) Drmies (talk) 18:08, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * 6) GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:22, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * 7)  Doug Weller  talk 18:57, 26 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Oppose

Discussion by other editors

 * The last point of the motion must be F, not E.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:49, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Fixed, thanks! Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 11:20, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm curious about the 1-year limit on discretionary sanctions, but other than that this looks like what is needed - a firm reminder that all participants need to behave like mature adults and engage with the discussions in good faith (explicitly including not creating a fait acompli), along with a note that there will be consequences for those who do not. Thryduulf (talk) 11:04, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Mainly a result of consensus building on the list that discretionary sanctions should be temporary until the community decides how Wikidata should be integrated. It's there mainly as a sunset clause. I'm hopeful that next year's Committee will be able to end them sooner (as hopefully the RfC will happen soon). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 11:20, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
 * This will not work without a structured format, and I still believe a case is the best way forward here. Discretionary sanctions will also make it a free-for-all since everyone who is contributing will be a "vested contributor" and anytime a sanction is placed it will immediately spill over into the appeal venues (think GorillaWarfare's recent block of TRM but worse in terms of the appeal). If anything this motion will increase this disruption that the overwhelming majority of editors who simply do not care about Wikidata experience while the inevitable mess of an RfC takes place. It would be better for arbcom simply to do nothing rather than pass this motion. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:48, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Unless there's at minimum a formal mechanism for closing the RFC, and a formal statement that the result of decisions there are enforceable, this will just generate more heat than light since both the pro and anti Wikidata camps will just ignore any decisions with which they disagree. While I'd prefer the RFC be structured and moderated—regardless of how anti-Wikipedian that may be—if it's going to be a free-for-all it probably needs to be on the understanding that Arbcom itself or a group delegated by them will act as closers, and that whatever conclusion it reaches will itself become an enforceable Arbcom motion. &#8209; Iridescent 20:32, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
 * An example from the past could be Arbitration/Requests/Case/Muhammad images. --Rschen7754 23:47, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I wrote up my thoughts on similar questions a while back, and some of this may still be useful, I don't know:
 * My recommendations for contentious, multi-year RfCs:
 * Encourage everyone to say more than they would say in a typical RfC. People tend to talk in terms of solutions ... but if you prompt them for more, they'll tell you something about what they see as the problems, and that's the information we need to negotiate something that has a chance of working for everyone.
 * Instead of letting a few people determine what everyone is going to vote on, allow votes on whatever questions gain traction, either through a pre-RfC to decide the questions, or at the end of an RfC, when the closer(s) can lead a short discussion among the voters to set up the next RfC.
 * Allow lots of time. Tough issues often take multiple RfCs, because initially people will be focused on different aspects of the problem, and it's hard to find any consensus when people insist on viewing the problem in different ways. Try to get consensus on one question at a time; after people see that they've definitely won (or lost) on the question that concerns them most, some of them will be willing to shift their attention to whatever question comes next.
 * If several rounds of discussion haven't produced anything, try tackling problems in smaller groups first, such as wikiprojects. - Dank (push to talk) 16:01, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Amendment request: Indefinitely blocked IPs (December 2017)

 * Original discussion

Initiated by Nyttend at 14:55, 26 November 2017 (UTC)


 * List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:''
 * (initiator)

Statement by Nyttend
Per WP:IPBLENGTH, IPs should almost never be indef-blocked. I found these two IPs at Database reports/Indefinitely blocked IPs: 190.140.234.59 was blocked in 2008 for evading a ban placed at Requests for arbitration/Stefanomencarelli (the underlying account is no longer blocked), and 2003:51:4A44:E240:213:E8FF:FEED:36FB was apparently attempting to distribute child pornography when blocked in 2014. Unless you believe that these two are likely to warrant re-blocking, could they be unblocked? No point in notifying them ("hello IP, are you still going to be disruptive?"), but I'll notify the admins who blocked them. Please note that this not a complaint about anyone; I would have asked the blocking admins and not come here, but I know that an admin shouldn't revert an arbitration block even if he placed the block himself.

PS, would the Committee please direct one of the checkusers to tell us what IPs, or IP ranges, are being used by the bots operating on WMF Labs? Back when we had the Toolserver, Toolserver IP told us to indef-softblock the Toolserver IPs (bots often edited logged out), and that's likely no longer needed. I filed a quick SPI request for the IPs in question, but inexplicably this request was treated like a privacy-violating request for checkuser on a human, not a request for technical assistance with the WMF servers.

Statement by BU Rob13
It's worth noting that is no longer banned, so the indefinite block on 190.140.234.59 isn't even relevant anymore. That one can certainly be unblocked. The admin which blocked it,, is active. He can revert his own AE action. ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 19:44, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Just as an FYI, the relevant ArbCom motion only prohibits undoing an arbitration enforcement block done by another administrator. (Beeblebrox won't be able to undo the ArbCom block, though, which presumably had the support of the Committee at the time.) ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 19:48, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * And in response to the PS, see my further explanation of why I declined that CheckUser request here. ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 19:51, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Rlandmann

 * I'm happy to remove the indef block on 190.140.234.59, although, the way I read the ArbCom motion linked by Rob13, so could any other admin, since if Stefanomencarelli is no longer blocked, this is no longer "an active arbitration remedy" (emphasis mine) --Rlandmann (talk) 01:04, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

Indefinitely blocked IPs: Clerk notes

 * This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).



Indefinitely blocked IPs: Arbitrator views and discussion

 * The first of these blocks is an AE block, not an ArbCom block, and can be unblocked by anyone at this late date. I expect the second can also be unblocked at this point given the dynamics of IPs, but please hold off until I get confirmation. I'll leave the last paragraph of the request for someone more CU-savvy than I. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:19, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I've unblocked the first IP. Stand by regarding the second IP. I support Rob's comment at SPI that checking a random bot would be inappropriate. Looks like you're working with DoRD on other IPs which have been used by toolserver in the past. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 09:30, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I've unblocked the second IP. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 05:45, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Agree with unblock of second IP, given passage of time. Their advocacy was pretty obvious, if the same user still has this IP they'll be spotted soon enough. -- Euryalus (talk) 09:43, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I cautiously support unblocking . They were only active for one day back in 2014 and have not remained active since. Given the serious nature of their editing topic, I think they could be unblocked with some monitoring for a short duration. <span style="color:black;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px white, -4px -4px 15px white">Mkdw  <span style="color: #0B0080;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px white, -4px -4px 15px white">talk 16:56, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Reduced timeline
I think cutting the timeline in half may be overdoing it. Perhaps a compromise on 10 days each for each phase would be better if a shortened timeframe is really insisted upon. The holidays means that many people, especially Americans, will be travelling or spending most of their time with their families or on vacation, etc. Also, the exact scope of this case is unclear, the details are still somewhat unclear, the parties and exact focus is unclear, and the issue of the mix of advanced privileges and (disclosed or undisclosed) paid editing is something that people will have many opinions on and may opine/propose at length on. I sent an email to Euryalus detailing why I think cutting the time in half is too short; perhaps he could forward it to the others. Softlavender (talk) 18:50, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks Softlavender. We will follow up with, or alternatively you may also send it to the ArbCom mailing list . <span style="color:black;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px white, -4px -4px 15px white">Mkdw  <span style="color: #0B0080;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px white, -4px -4px 15px white">talk  18:59, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the email (I'm out of town for work so apologies for slightly delayed reply). Keen that everyone has a chance to comment and debate; also keen to avoid that mid-case dead zone where everything has been said and we're just running down the clock. How about two weeks evidence, one week for each of workshop and PD? We can always extend it as we go if required, this indicative timeframe would be more of an incentive for people to move it along. In passing, my suggestion is not specific to this case; it's my general view that arbcom case times are too long, and I proposed the same reduction in Joefromrandb. -- Euryalus (talk) 23:54, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I do hear you that cases can drag on too long when they (or at least some of them) don't need to. I think what you have proposed (two weeks evidence, one week for the other phases) sounds more optimal. And the option to extend if that becomes relevant (I had forgotten that that has been done before, as on the Wikicology case) gives "wiggle room". Softlavender (talk) 05:56, 23 November 2017 (UTC)


 * The factor I've seen causing delays isn't so much the hold times themselves, but that once they are met action is being delayed either off-wiki, or apparently just because no one is ready to work. For example, the current Mister Wiki case request appears to meet criteria for action #1,2,3 - but now is on an indefinite hold cycle pending off-wiki (private mailing list) action.  Another recent example of opening delay was in this case where Newyorkbrad mentioned that additional requests to open are no longer needed and it will get started in the next day or two.  Exploring the cause of these delays and how to better explain (or eliminate) them could be an opportunity to improve this process. —  xaosflux  Talk 16:20, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
 * To clarify: I and others on this thread so far are neither talking about the time wait to open a case nor the pace of Arbitrators. We are talking about the deadlines for community submissions for (a) evidence (b) workshop and (c) PD. I'm not really sure it's fair to blame (even though I know you are not blaming per se) a group of volunteers with varying life commitments and schedules who have taken on the toughest job on Wikipedia. But maybe you're just saying that it's not the timetable that makes cases long, it's the lag time on the Arbs' end. Softlavender (talk) 16:33, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Edited to add: As I kind of alluded to above, in terms of the Mister Wiki case, November 23 is Thanksgiving and this is a 5- to 9-day holiday in America (depending on one's employer or employment/school status), and many of the Arbs are Americans, and this also involves cross-country travel and commitments to family. Softlavender (talk) 16:40, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm not placing a 'blame' - just looking at the numbers. If the minimum cycle delay in the opening presents between other phases, then having a shorter minimum will not necessarily help so long as every step has an indefinite hold period at the end of it. —  xaosflux  Talk 17:32, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Just a note for the archives of this example - here we are another week later and the example (Mister Wiki) case request is still languishing in the indefinite hold process to even get started, with the closest explanation being from User:Euryalus that the committee can't decide what to call the name of the page?! — xaosflux  Talk 14:19, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, you've pointed out a fairly consistent problem, which is that on any particular decision it is easy to get the views of around 3-4 arbitrators but then incredibly slow to get the input of any others. When there's non-trivial decisions like the scope or direction of a case, you can spend days waiting for those extra couple of opinions before proceeding. This is not an issue with this committee over any others: its been true of every Arbcom since at least 2015. Its the single biggest obstacle to speedy issues resolution. -- Euryalus (talk) 19:04, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Question
How do I go about appealing these unblock from two years ago? I wish to appeal a TBAN, imposed, but have been told the unblock conditions are an impediment Darkness Shines (talk) 21:29, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * As I said on my talk page, you would need to submit an amendment request at WP:ARCA. However, it would be very unlikely that they would be lifted given you have recent blocks. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:39, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Edit request for the page Dulwich College Beijing
My username is 1748283-021jfkldajfkldarourkeajnd,manfda. I am reporting users Dlohcierekim and Johntodd652. The page I am referring to is titled Dulwich College Beijing. The edit I would like to keep on the page is as follows:

" ==Scandals==

In the past 4 years, Dulwich College Beijing has employed three staff members who have been accused of pedophilia. Two of the accused include Sean Jamieson, the former Head of Junior School and Neil McGowan who was Headmaster of the school from 2011 until 2012. "

This edit has been removed repeatedly by various users who are employed by Dulwich College Beijing. I would like to make sure that this edit cannot be removed. 1748283-021jfkldajfkldarourkeajnd,manfda (talk) 05:19, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: this is the talk page for discussing improvements to the page Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests. Please make your request at the talk page for the article concerned. &mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 18:19, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Crouch, Swale ban appeal (December 2017)
Enacted  Mini  apolis  16:49, 31 December 2017 (UTC)




 * Support
 * Support with a note for Crouch, Swale that the aim of these restrictions are to encourage them to edit existing articles, in line with standard policies, while staying away from previous areas of contention. -- Euryalus (talk) 23:57, 25 December 2017 (UTC) Temp remove, see comment below. -- Euryalus (talk) 22:02, 27 December 2017 (UTC)


 * 1) Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 00:20, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
 * 2) Newyorkbrad (talk) 13:40, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
 * 3) <span style="color:black;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px white, -4px -4px 15px white">Mkdw  <span style="color: #0B0080;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px white, -4px -4px 15px white">talk 19:50, 26 December 2017 (UTC)  Moving to oppose. <span style="color:black;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px white, -4px -4px 15px white">Mkdw  <span style="color: #0B0080;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px white, -4px -4px 15px white">talk  08:47, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't want to swear to it, but I don't think we would consider actions on Commaons here, although I'd be interested to hear from my colleagues with a longer institutional memory.  Doug Weller  talk 21:02, 26 December 2017 (UTC) As  Euryalus.  Doug Weller  talk 08:16, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
 * 1) I am well aware of their disruptive past and yet supported fewer restrictions, but I support this. Drmies (talk) 22:21, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Ok, as per last alert. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:29, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * 1) I agree with, but going back to weak support in the spirit of Christmas and fresh starts. , please don't test the boundaries of these restrictions. Instead, productively edit existing articles in areas unrelated to your previous disputes.  the restrictions should stay in place until there's confidence they're no longer needed. Six months of no editing, followed by an appeal, wouldn't provide that confidence (and would look a lot like wikilawyering). -- Euryalus (talk) 06:17, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
 * 2)  DGG ( talk ) 17:55, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
 * 3) I hadn't seen the latest update from CS till now, but given that they say they'll work within the restrictions, sure. Opabinia regalis (talk) 19:22, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Ok, given the clarification and the season, I'm also giving weak support with the restrictions agreed. Doug Weller  talk 19:43, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
 * 1) In light of the clarification. I'm a little worried about how eager Crouch, Swale is to return to the areas that were problematic in the past, but hopefully he will abide by the restrictions and we can move forward from there. GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:44, 30 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * These restrictions could have been appealed in due time, while providing an opportunity to demonstrate their return to constructive editing following their CBAN. The restriction on creating new articles was privately discussed and agreed upon by Crouch, Swale preceding this motion. Given the discussion that is now unfolding at User talk:Crouch, Swale, I no longer have confidence that overturning [ending] the community ban is a net positive. <span style="color:black;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px white, -4px -4px 15px white">Mkdw  <span style="color: #0B0080;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px white, -4px -4px 15px white">talk  08:47, 28 December 2017 (UTC)  Back to support per this. <span style="color:black;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px white, -4px -4px 15px white">Mkdw  <span style="color: #0B0080;text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px white, -4px -4px 15px white">talk  00:58, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Discussion on their talk page shows user unwilling to engage collaboratively in this unblocking process. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:30, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
 * It's disappointing to see that it's played out this way, but I now think that the restrictions need to continue. Doug Weller  talk 10:58, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * , could you please clarify what you mean by 'restrictions'? Opposing here would mean that the siteban would continue. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 11:11, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Oops, sorry. Too many mentions of restrictions stuck in my mine. I meant to say that I didn't think the restrictions would work so the site ban neeeds to continue. Particularly in the light of the comments Callanecc mentions in the discussion section. I'll add that I think it's too late for him to change his mind convincingly. Doug Weller  talk 12:30, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I should have read my alerts first. He says he would comply with the restrictions. Doug Weller  talk 12:33, 29 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Abstain


 * Discussion by arbitrators
 * Thanks for raising these points. For avoidance of doubt, I'd consider an RM for any geographic feature (including human settlements) a likely breach of #2. No particular view on what he does on Commons. -- Euryalus (talk) 11:45, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
 * , lots of unlikely contingencies can happen. We cannot foresee how unexpected of clever someone might be. We cannot detect all the possible loophole in a  remedy. If we try to take care of the unlikely in advance, we end up with something so intricate that nobody can figure out how to  follow it or enforce it. We need to assume admins will enforce the restrictions reasonably, but we cannot imagine all the unreasonable things they can do, or the things that appear reasonable and turn out otherwise. The time to deal with unpredictable events in the future is when they happens. We're not writing instructions for bots,   or for early models of robots with limited artificial intelligence.   DGG ( talk ) 21:19, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
 * We restored Crouch, Swale's talkpage access so they could contribute to this conversation. Their comments are here, and suggest they're not interested in editing with these restrictions. This contradicts earlier comments made by them via email. Removing my support vote until this is resolved. -- Euryalus (talk) 22:02, 27 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Crouch, Swale has clarified on their talk page that they didn't mean that they didn't agree to them, or that they wouldn't comply with them . Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 11:11, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * If you get the chance, can you please stop by and vote on this before 1 Jan, so we don't have to restart the count? -- Euryalus (talk) 16:04, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Community comments

 * I'm a little concerned about the enforcement provisions. I understand that they are "standard", but, given the scale of previous disruption, by the time a fifth block under these conditions is reached, I imagine a great deal of community time and effort would have been wasted. I do wonder if some quicker, less "onerous" enforcement might be better in the event of a return to prior problematic behaviour? -- Begoon 01:59, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm personally fine with that. I have a feeling enforcement is going to be fairly easy at this stage since the Committee is now seised of the dispute, rather than needing to go through ANI.And honestly, I'm not so sure the previous disruption was of a particularly severe scale. The sockpuppetry, of course, was on a large scale, but even that was over relatively quickly; it doesn't look like C,S was engaged in it past 2012, and even then it seems the scale of it had tapered off pretty quickly.I mean, I get what you're concerned about. We're extending C,S the opportunity to come back despite what would otherwise be a life sentence; you'd hope C,S would take advantage of that opportunity and avoid any risky edits. But, if we're really honest, people make mistakes sometimes. And recently unbanned editors tend to work under a microscope. I'm comfortable with the additional checks against a return to misconduct being balanced by some leeway instead of the first sign of a problem resulting in the death penalty. —/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 02:18, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
 * The points Mendaliv made at the end are pretty much why I went with five blocks. Also keep in mind that the fifth block is the maximum, there's nothing stopping an editor from filing an ARCA request after the first, second, etc block if they don't believe that these conditions are working. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 04:37, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Your last point about ARCA is fair, and if the recidivism was severe enough even the first block could be up to a month, to allow that ARCA time to be processed, I suppose. That largely deals with my concerns, thanks. -- Begoon 04:53, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
 * A couple scenarios worry me slightly. One is if Crouch, Swale starts a bunch of RMs "I'm not allowed to move it myself, but it should be moved because of X". Would that be a violation of condition 2, as the reasoning is likely to be based on interpretation of naming conventions? I think spelling that out would make things clearer both for Crouch, Swale and the community.
 * The second is if he is re-blocked, he will likely switch his activity to Commons. That will undermine blocks in the event of recidivism, as it won't force a behavioural change but simply change where the "bad" edits happen. Of course Arbcom can't enforce a sanction on Commons, but should any Commons activity that would violate the conditions (if it had occurred on Wikipedia) be considered at an ARCA?--Nilfanion (talk) 08:33, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
 * , For what its worth I think both situations I mention to be likely. Crouch's message implies he desires to move / create pages. "Leaving work to others" on the former implies opening RMs, and a contested RM is invariably tied to discussion of naming conventions. I agree with Euryalus' take on that, and think that having that spelled out explicitly may prevent any grief (I don't want Crouch blocked for a violation there). Given his history, a switch back to Commons in the event of a block is likely. However as that involves a number of conditional factors, I agree with DGG that there's no real need to fret about it.--Nilfanion (talk) 21:44, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
 * If Arbcom grants this motion, and for 6 months he complies by not editing, would Arbcom consider letting the restrictions lapse? I'm now convinced that all Crouch, Swale cares about is creating awful micro-stubs about a myriad places of dubious notability. That was exactly the behaviour that led to the initial block and if that's what he ends up doing, I'd lobby for a re-ban.--Nilfanion (talk) 15:45, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * As I said earlier, I'd need to see 6 months of good editing. If there are no edits at all, I wouldn't be in a position to determine whether or not the sanctions could be removed/suspended. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:18, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
 * From Crouch's various comments, I'm starting to agree with that their only real intention is to get back to the point where they can recommence mass additions of dubious stubs. If the committee believes it's worth a try to unblock with these restrictions, then fair enough, nothing will be set on fire, and reblocks are, as is often pointed out, cheap - but I confess to becoming increasingly pessimistic about the real benefits and long-term outcome. -- Begoon 01:30, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I know I've been a bit of a devil's advocate here, but I'm happy with the comments from the committee and think it is worth giving him the chance. His suggestions are reasonable starting points, and its possible he will get the confidence to make more substantial contributions from there. If and when we get to the point that the restrictions are relaxed, that's the point at which I may be concerned.--Nilfanion (talk) 13:49, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Talk:Le Trio Joubran
Since leaving this message at WT:ARBPIA resulted in exactly zero reaction, and the issue seems to be serious, copying it here.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:23, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I have the page on my watchlist and I noticed this request. I am not sure how to proceed. Do we have any policies for this case? (Posting it here since it is highly relevant for ARBPIA and likely to be noticed; the page has been ec protected for quite some time.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:46, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
 * It might be worth asking them to email OTRS so that we can be a little more certain that they who they say they are. Whether the information is removed or not is an editorial decision. The closest relevant policy is WP:BLPPRIVACY which really only refers to dates of birth. It's probably okay to remove it, but it might need to be added back if there is consensus to have it in the article. In that situation the article subject can contact the WMF and ask them to remove it as an office action. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 11:06, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks, sounds like a good idea.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:17, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Clarification request: Discretionary Sanctions (January 2018)

 * Original discussion

Initiated by Seraphim System at 20:22, 21 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Case or decision affected
 * Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
 * (initiator)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request


 * [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:EdJohnston&diff=816511221&oldid=816509420]

Statement by Seraphim System
Does the awareness requirement need to be fulfilled before discretionary sanctions are applied?

When User:EdJohnston sanctioned me for a 1RR article in a topic area I was new to WP:ARBAA2, I was very surprised. I had not known that it was a DS topic area. I only later found out about the awareness requirements. When I asked him about he said "I believe I have correctly described the current practice regarding 1RR violations." - I am requesting clarification.

Here is the link to my discussion with the EdJohnston: User_talk:EdJohnston

I am requesting clarification of the DS procedure. I understand that there is no requirement to warn of individual editing restrictions, but I had not received any notice of discretionary sanctions in the topic area. I am requesting clarification of the following: No editor may be sanctioned unless they are aware that discretionary sanctions are in force for the area of conflict.

My understanding is that awareness under the formal criteria is required for the topic area before any discretionary sanctions are applied, but that notice of the individual restrictions on specific articles is not required by the decision. If User:EdJohnston's reading is correct, then I believe the summary of the Arbitration Decision at Awareness and alerts should be modified so editors are aware of this. Seraphim System ( talk ) 20:22, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Without going into too much detail, there was no long-term edit warring, I restored an NPOV template that was properly justified and needed to be in the article. I added a refimprove template after my citation needed tags were removed. This is what is being called "long term edit warring". If the block was for "long term edit warring" that would be extraordinary and even less justifiable, but this would not be the place to discuss it.

I understood this as a hasty and passing remark by an admin, who was sanctioning for a clear 1RR violation, but EdJohnston can say more about it. EdJohnston clearly stated that there was a 1RR violation, I understood it to be a 1RR violation and he continues to defend it as a 1RR violation. I thought what happened here was a good faith mistake that needed clarification, so admins and editors would know what was expected in the future.

Long story short, it is especially important in difficult topic areas that blocks are preventative and not punitive. Part of that is editor's awareness of the discretionary sanctions, because intentionally violating 1RR is fairly construed as an intent to continue editing disruptively. If I had been aware of the restrictions, I would have certainly respected them. Admins should not unilaterally modify what has been decided by an Arbitration decision, since most editors will not be aware of their unilateral standards, as I was not in this case. Certainly, the decision as stated should say what it means, and the admins trusted with enforcing it should respect that. But before proposing any modification, I would like to see if there is community consensus about its meaning. Seraphim System ( talk ) 01:33, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

My argument is exactly as you said - 1RR is part of discretionary sanctions. See this for example: Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive188 - formal notice is required for 1RR. Even in cases where there are informal warnings. It has been discussed by the community and amended to clarify that formal notice is required. Can you explain what kinds of cases you think the DS warning template is for? AFAIK, AE has declined to sanction in 1RR cases like this.

(Where is the 1RR restriction logged btw? I can't find it here: Arbitration_enforcement_log)

Seraphim System ( talk ) 02:48, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Ed has said he sanctioned for 1RR and has refused to even explain what "long term edit warring" is when I asked him under ADMINACCT so let's focus on 1RR - an editor didn't have notice, it wasn't logged as AE, and admins/arbs can't even agree on whether it is AE or not. What a mess for an editor to get caught up in. Please get this sorted out. A few points:


 * The practical distinction between general sanctions and discretionary sanctions is that the rules are different. You would not want to punish editors who generally follow the rules because they did not know different rules were in effect for a particular page, right? That is what the notice requirement protects editors from.


 * I see a lot of comments assuming that I deliberately violated a DS that I knew about, I did not. If you review the complaint at WP:ANS, I even comment on it the first time I see it and offer to self-revert if someone points out the edit. There was no prior discussion or anything, so please stop trying to pretend Ed's actions were routine here. To this day I don't understand how my edits were "long term edit warring" even though I asked for an explanation under ADMINACCT. Not following WP:BRD is not sanctionable. I understand that I violated 1RR, but I did not know the restriction was in effect on this article. These notice rules are in place to prevent abuses.


 * I have a different color scheme on my browser, and I think my font was mint green at the time. The box looks green, so probably I did not see the notice. There could be a million reasons why an editor would not see this. If you rely on the editing notices alone, experienced editors are the most likely to get caught up in it. (Bad for Wikipedia.) I already know the rules, so I don't read the fine print on every article and it is not reasonable to expect this. That is why the formal notice requirement is important. (Because in controversial areas like this where discussion sometimes breaks down, the community has put in place extra precautions and procedures in place to prevent abuses.)

I think it does create some unfairness in areas where an editor has previously been active, but the amendment is clear that currently informal notice is not sufficient. Judging from the comments, there may be some will for modification. Seraphim System ( talk ) 23:38, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

I didn't see it. Please compare it to the notices at ARBPIA with all the important stuff emphasized - I think there should be a template at the top of the talk page and the article page, and they should be in a consistent style. It doesn't benefit editors for the look/color of the templates to change from one conflict area to the other. All the DS notices should look the same. It is unhelpful when the same notices have different appearances on different articles. Experienced editors should not have to slow down to read different versions of the same notice they have read 50 times already. Most likely these issues have all come up in the past and ARBCOM decided that a formal warning for the topic area at a minimum was fair. Seraphim System ( talk ) 12:38, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I have to also add that it is frustrating to be accused of lying, for no reason. I have managed to go all this time without a single 1RR sanction in ARBPIA. Most of my edits are constructive, including maintenance, vandalism patrol, pending changes review, AFC backlog, GA reviews, as well as just regular content creation. A 48 hour block for these edits?: [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=&diff=prev&oldid=804951094] [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=&diff=805003275&oldid=804974284] - even if I had known, I would not have thought it was a 1RR violation, because of the near unanimous consensus among admins at AE that editing long-standing content does not count as a revert. Seraphim System ( talk ) 13:27, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

I can comment that I think even the topic area would be enough, but that it should be given before any DS are applied, including 1RR. The formal templates serve the purpose of making these types of problems less likely and keeping editors cool when working on difficult articles. Editors understandably get upset, some have quit, etc. When I know an area is under discretionary sanctions, I am more careful - I look around to see if there are templates or special notices, I edit more slowly. Generally, we want editors to slow down and edit more carefully in these topic areas, and the formal warnings topic area warnings are usually enough to achieve this. There are a lot of DS topic areas, I don't know all of them, and I don't want to live in fear that I may accidentally edit an article on GMO for example, and get hit with a DS with no warning and no discussion. I do think the font being larger, and the article restrictions being clearly stated, and the individual pages being more consistently templated in some of the less active areas would also help. But the warning comes first, editors should know they are editing in a topic area where pages may have special restrictions. Seraphim System ( talk ) 15:04, 23 December 2017 (UTC)


 * The block absolutely was not reasonable, and you almost lost an editor for it, but if I had been asking for you opinion on the block I would have filed a desysop request. There seems to be consensus that the current rules did require a formal warning for at least the topic area. It sounds like you support modifying the current warning system - I don't support it and that was not my intention filing this. I would only support making the protections for editors stronger, I do not support weakening them. I wanted clarification on the current system - it seems patently clear, as the discussion has turned to modifying the awareness requirement, instead of clarifying it, there was an awareness requirement and what Ed told me under ADMINACCT was incorrect.
 * If you have not please read my comment to User:BU Rob13 above on why the awareness requirement is important. No editor has asked for it to be modified and I don't think the proposal will receive community support. If a modification is going to be proposed, this should be discussed with the community in a formal proposal, not as a side matter in a clarification request. Seraphim System ( talk ) 21:16, 23 December 2017 (UTC)


 * To summarize my position, I think that the current awareness requirement would have been enough to avoid the issue that arose in this case. I have never missed an editing notice when I have been aware of DS in a topic area. I don't think increased page-level notification is necessary and I am not asking for it. A topic area warning would have been sufficient to avoid this block. I'm not persuaded of the wisdom of trying to fix something that isn't broken. That wasn't my intent asking for clarification, I only want to know that I can rely on receiving proper notification of DS when I am editing in a new topic area, so I am aware that I should edit more cautiously if I edit about "Ancient Egyptian race controversy" or the "Shakespeare authorship question" for example. Seraphim System  ( talk ) 22:20, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Statement by EdJohnston
Most articles are under WP:3RR enforcement, but a few have been placed under WP:1RR as mentioned in the WP:Edit warring policy. This kind of a restriction is attached to a page and applies to all editors of the page. 1RR can be imposed either (a) directly by Arbcom as in WP:ARBPIA3, (b) by individual administrators under WP:AC/DS or (c) by the community as in WP:GS/ISIL. The type (b) restrictions are described in WP:AC/DS. Under the argument of User:Seraphim System, nobody could be blocked for a 1RR violation for type (b) article restrictions unless they had previously been alerted to discretionary sanctions under whatever decision was used originally to place the 1RR on the page. I take it he assumes he is only under WP:3RR until he gets this notice. This is a novel idea but I'm pretty sure there is no written-down policy that backs it up. I have never alerted Seraphim System to the ARBAA2 decision and I also believe I've never imposed a discretionary sanction on him. I did issue a block per WP:AN3 for violation of the existing 1RR at Armenian Genocide that was imposed by User:Moreschi on 27 January, 2008, as well as for a pattern of long-term edit warring. EdJohnston (talk) 02:28, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
 * In response to Seraphim System's question about logging, here is where Moreschi logged the 2008 1RR on Armenian Genocide. EdJohnston (talk) 03:38, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Brustopher
Checking Seraphim System's block log, he was blocked for violating 1RR on the Armenian Genocide page. When somebody edits that page, the following attention grabbing and clearly visible notice appears: Editnotices/Page/Armenian_Genocide It is therefore close to impossible that anyone would be able to edit that page without realising it's covered by DS and 1RR. Failing to read such a massive attention grabbing notice would indicate competency issues. In my opinion the issue here is this: The Rules require that anyone hit by a DS sanction receive an individual notification beforehand. The rule exists for reasons of fairness. People shouldnt be sanctioned under rules they dont realise exist. But the above edit notice makes it practically impossible for a competent editor to be unaware that page sanctions exist. In such circumstances letting someone off the hook because they didn't receive a DS notice would be letting them off on a technicality. Brustopher (talk) 10:29, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Statement by SMcCandlish on DS
Yet another example of why DS is malfunctional. We were promised another review of DS and how it works/should work over two years ago (and haven't had one since 2013). This "notice" system is deeply broken. While I've recently commented on the WP:GAMING problems inherent in it (people damned well aware of the DS and deeply involved in the topic can escape sanctions for gross disruption simply on the technicality of not having received a notice or their notice having expired), this request raises an equal-but-opposite concern, that gibberish notices someone assumes were understood or even seen may not be by editors new to the topic. This whole thing needs to be scrapped in favor of : is the user someone who just now wandered into the topic and did a business-as-usual WP:BRD revert, or is this someone with a long pattern of being an asshat across a swath of related pages?

For an in-depth analysis of issues raised in the last DS review, see User:SMcCandlish/Discretionary sanctions 2013–2018 review. Over three years after the original November 2015 draft of it, nothing has changed &#91;except that section 12 in it (DS applied to policy formation) has been partially resolved by an ARCA enacted on 11 February 2017 (permalink to full discussion) which made most of WP:ARBATC moot and unenforceable&#93;. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ &gt;ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ&lt;  18:58, 22 December 2017‎ (UTC)

— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ &gt;ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ&lt;  02:26, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I fully support the idea of a bot notifying editors after they've substantively edited a page covered by DS. This would solve a  of problems.  See some recent previous discussion of this idea and how to go about getting it voted on (ping: ). This should probably be done in an "after X number of edits totaling at least Y bytes of changes within Z amount of time" manner, to prevent typo-fixing gnomes and the like getting DS notices about virtually every DS-affected topic as they go about their cleanup work. (And don't "advertise" the algorithm, just leave it buried in code somewhere, per WP:BEANS and WP:GAMING, or bad-acting parties will just time their edits to skirt it. Maybe even change its timing periodically.)  Sufficient substantive edits  Any edits should, however, trigger the bot regardless whether they were made to the article or its talk page, since way more than half the DS-applicable disruption happens on talk pages rather than through direct in-article editwarring.  Also, the  template needs an overhaul to be less menacing and in plainer English. Right now it looks like a dire warning/threat (which is why people react to it as one about 99% of the time), and it makes no sense to anyone but ArbCom policy wonks. Maybe open a page for redesigning it and invite people from Teahouse, and other "editor retention" and "welcoming committee" pages, and Wikipedia talk:Template messages/User talk namespace, for some consultation on this.  It's not like this is the first time we've needed to get a message across without scaring or angering people.
 * Redaction. I've struck an idea above after thinking on it longer, for reasons explained at the related AE thread in this post. (Also pinging .) The short version: ArbCom and AE have unwaveringly maintained that is nothing but an awareness notice. No harm can come from simply being made aware that a page one might edit again is covered by DS. If you edit the page, you get the notice, period.  Simple, no room for doubt or error, and we'll become so used to them so quickly any perception of them as menacing will go away.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ &gt;ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ&lt;  11:08, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
 * PS: This is the typical reaction to even going out of one's way to explain that one does not like the DS template one is leaving and doesn't like that ArbCom requires them. Twice I've had people attempt to WP:ANI or WP:AE me simply for leaving them a  at all.  The only viable solution other than the bot proposal – or (as I've suggested many times) scrapping this farcical system completely – is to create a page for requesting delivery of  by uninvolved admins, at which the requests will be carried out in a timely manner and on good-faith assumption – pretty much exactly like how WP:RM/TR works.  There is no harm – that's the central premise, anyway – in .  If people freak out when regular editors make them aware of DS, then either an artificial or an administrative party needs to do it without any interest in the underlying dispute or who the parties are.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ &gt;ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ&lt;  10:36, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by NeilN
Looking at the first two arb comments below, is there a reason why we're distinguishing between the processes of discretionary sanctions and general sanctions? WP:GS/SCW&ISIL reads "In addition a one revert rule, which does not require notice..." --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 19:11, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Just a note to say that average inexperienced editor has no idea what is the difference between discretionary and general sanctions. I doubt most experienced editors do, either. If awareness of restrictions before sanctions are imposed is considered to be a "fairness" issue, I strongly suggest Arbcom/the community synchronize the requirements for both types of sanctions. --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 22:03, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Coffee
It is ArbCom policy that page restrictions do not require a talk-page warning, as the editnotice warning does the job. As these edits were not done on a mobile device, the user who opened this is fully aware of that. As can be verified by clicking edit on the article. I wouldn't think Arbitrators were unaware of this, considering they wrote it (sanctions.page) to state:
 * Any uninvolved administrator may impose on any page or set of pages relating to the area of conflict semi-protection, full protection, move protection, revert restrictions, and prohibitions on the addition or removal of certain content (except when consensus for the edit exists). Editors ignoring page restrictions may be sanctioned by any uninvolved administrator. The enforcing administrator must log page restrictions they place.


 * Best practice is to add editnotices to restricted pages where appropriate, using the standard template (ds/editnotice).

If it has been found sufficient in all the previous ARCA's I can recall about this, I imagine Arbs wouldn't change this rule suddenly for administrators now. <small style="color:#999;white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:lightgrey 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">&mdash; <big style="color:#ffa439">Coffee //  have a ☕️ //  beans  // 20:11, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, since you've already commented below (seemingly without the realization that ArbCom wrote the policy to be used exactly as Ed used it here). <small style="color:#999;white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:lightgrey 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">&mdash; <big style="color:#ffa439">Coffee //  have a ☕️ //  beans  // 20:14, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Then why was this not stipulated at the last ARCA I'm clearly referring to? <small style="color:#999;white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:lightgrey 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">&mdash; <big style="color:#ffa439">Coffee //  have a ☕️ //  beans  // 02:09, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Perhaps a motion to add something to the effect of "if an editnotice is used to alert editors of active page restrictions, and the editor has not been previously warned (in the required time frame), administrators should allow the editor at least 5-20 minutes [Committee should decide what time] to undo their offending edit(s) prior to being blocked or otherwise sanctioned" to the alerts section of WP:AC/DS? <small style="color:#999;white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:lightgrey 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">&mdash; <big style="color:#ffa439">Coffee //  have a ☕️ //  beans  // 03:28, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I rather like that one too... would definitely clear this up finally. <small style="color:#999;white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:lightgrey 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">&mdash; <big style="color:#ffa439">Coffee //  have a ☕️ //  beans  // 03:45, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I refuse to sanction editors who are shown to be using the mobile or visual editors (this is always tagged in the history). Can we not make this an official policy until the devs fix that issue with warnings? Something to the order of: "if the offending edit is tagged as a mobile or Visual edit, administrators should not block for more than 24 hours unless the editor's knowledge of the page restrictions is clearly established"? Or would it be better to wait on the developers to have the notice more prominent in those two GUIs? <small style="color:#999;white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:lightgrey 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">&mdash; <big style="color:#ffa439">Coffee //  have a ☕️ //  beans  // 18:18, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
 * My biggest concern obviously is that putting it into written form makes it rather easier to game the DS system. <small style="color:#999;white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:lightgrey 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">&mdash; <big style="color:#ffa439">Coffee //  have a ☕️ //  beans  // 18:19, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I will note I disagree with the use of green for any ArbCom editnotice. I was under the impression we could only use ds/editnotice anyways, is that not correct, , ? <small style="color:#999;white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:lightgrey 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">&mdash; <big style="color:#ffa439">Coffee //  have a ☕️ //  beans  // 22:30, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Galobtter
First of all, until WP:AC/DS is changed, he had to be notified of the topic level sanctions before being sanctioned. Second of all, a talk page notice is definitely not enough, especially if not in standard color. They are there for lots of reasons - many BLP articles have notices that unsourced statements must be removed immediately etc, so I mostly ignore them. Third of all, any concerns about gaming can be resolved by quickly alerting users who edit the area. @Brustopher, editing Taylor Swift has a similar sort of notice, except it is for explaining BLP policy. I think a topic level notice should be enough to enforce page level restrictions, as it alerts that one must read edit notices in that area carefully. Galobtter (pingó mió) 14:10, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Regarding bot could place a notice on an editor's talk page after their first edit to a page under discretionary sanctions seems like a decent idea, if possible. My thinking is that the more alerts are placed, the more they become like they're supposed to be - neutral alerts, not alerts to be placed after a violation has occurred. This could be also manually done, using a script to see if someone has been alerted before and for what, so that people, when they notice someone doing a few edits in an area, can easily see if an alert is needed to be placed and do it. As an aside, definitely need to up the size of the "this does not mean anything bad" portion of the ds/alert template by like 5 times, otherwise there'll be loads of complaints if a bot is done. Galobtter (pingó mió) 15:31, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Makes sense. may just want to make it "semi-automated" - using script to make it a lot easier and a lot more common to put alerts. Galobtter (pingó mió) 12:16, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Darkfrog24
While I don't know Seraphim specifically, it is absolutely possible to scroll right past a notice of discretionary sanctions on a project talk page and have no idea that it's there, especially if you were working on that talk page before it was placed and already in the habit of scrolling past the top to read new threads. This might be a separate problem, but even after reading the page on discretionary sanctions, it's still not clear what they are, how they work or what the editors are supposed to do about it. Darkfrog24 (talk) 17:35, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Statement by DHeyward
From a practical standpoint, AE actions are intended to stop longterm abuse. The project shouldn't collapse due to the time it takes for an AE warning. This isn't vandalism. Nor does it require immediate action. If it did, there are other rules in place to get immediate action. Secondly, if a warning achieves its goal of stopping long-term abuse, then it has done its job and is much preferred to arguing over a sanction and whether a notice was given. The rush to apply a sanction is misguided and a form of "gotcha" abuse when it's very clear that any AE sanction can afford to wait until individual notice is given. No admin should invoke an AE sanction without being able to provide a diff of the listed methods of notification listed in the standard AE/DS procedure (no, an article talk page banner is not one of the notifications allowed). There is much confusion about who can place talk page notices and what they mean. It is simply not sufficient or necessary to rely on them. Asking admins to provide the notification diff is part of the heavy lifting necessary to implement a virtually irreversible long-term sanction. If they can't or won't, then it's not worth invoking an AE sanction. --DHeyward (talk) 20:17, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Statement by isaacl
Arbitration Committee/Procedures lists the precise number of ways an editor can be informed of discretionary sanctions. An edit page notice is not one of the listed methods. Arbitration Committee/Procedures specifies the precise method to be used to alert an editor. isaacl (talk) 05:39, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Statement by slakr
I noticed some discussion below about wanting more input re: alerts and such (e.g., from ). Typically I've interpreted ACDS and alerting, particularly when it comes to edit warring as it pops up on WP:AN3, as follows:
 * If a page already has an ACDS sanction attached to it (e.g., a standard 1RR), I look first to see if there's an edit notice to that effect. If it's only on the talk page or absent entirely, I assume (in absense of anything else) someone might not be aware of it, so if they breach it without any other form of notification or evidence of awareness of the sanction, I typically just add an edit notice myself, send any incidental s, and wait to see what happens.  If there already is an edit notice (and it's been there since whatever breach happened), I've assumed that's fair game for blocking anyone breaching it, regardless of whether they've ever received an Alert in the topic area&mdash;though I don't apply any additional editor-level sanctions.  For example, if someone violates a 1RR page-level restriction and they clearly should have seen the edit notice but haven't otherwise gotten an ACDS alert, nothing other than a relatively short-term block might come of it, but they'll still get an  from me as part of the package in case they decide to continue the dispute on other subject-area articles.
 * If a person doesn't have an ACDS in the past year and they're involved in an edit war (for example) on an ACDS-able page, regardless of whether the page has active sanctions or not, I typically add an  to the user and wait to see what happens.  Therefore, if they edit war on a page that doesn't have an explicit ACDS restriction, is within the topic area, and they HAVE been Alerted, they might get a topic-wide 1RR restriction (but might not even get blocked).
 * Regardless of ACDS applicability, if someone's obviously edit warring despite usual, non-ACDS warnings, they get blocked regularly (as a non-AE action).

So the general idea is that edit notices and user-talk-page s, if "not seen" by someone, are assume-bad-faith within their respective domains (i.e., edit notice for page-level sanctions and page-level enforcement of those sanctions; user Alert template for user-level sanctions/topic-wide sanctions applied to a user). Someone doesn't need both an edit notice on the page AND an alert; it's just too difficult, in my opinion, for people to "accidentally ignore" either the obvious "you have messages" or the "stop! there's an active sanction" edit notices, while it's entirely possible for someone who's even been Alerted to not see the talk-page notice of "hey, there are sanctions for the page attached to this talk page." Thus, a single-page-level sanction (and enforcement action taken in response) are presumed "notified," most reliably, through that page's edit notice, while broad, topic-wide, user-level sanctions (and actions taken in response) are presumed "notified," most reliably, through prior Alert templating and/or recent participation in AE-type discussions in the topic area.

Hopefully that helps? If I'm screwing it up, please let me know whatever you guys decide. :P

-- slakr \ talk / 23:16, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Naturally I kinda like the idea of a bot re: automatically alerting, too, but there are a couple of hitches I can imagine off-hand (i.e., things I'd raise to an operator before trialling a WP:BRFA):
 * It can be a a little complicated to figure out when/if the person truly got alerted previously (or if they meet the "participated in an AE on the topic" portion). There's an edit filter to tag the alert, but if an alert already exists on the page (even if over a year old or in a different topic), the filter might not catch it, plus someone might later clear their talk page, etc.... That said, going forward, if everyone was okay with that minor dumbness in the bot to begin with (e.g., someone possibly getting 2 alerts within a year or something), it might not be as big of an issue in the long run.  There's just the appearance of a bright-line with a lot of arb topics, and the Alert template's edit notice (sorry; confusing; "the edit notice alert that pops up when you try to use the Alert template to notify a user") has the perception that "you'll be doing a bad thing" if you over-alert, which is understandable, but also causes like me reviewing a bot to get much stricter with someone wanting to run one.
 * Page-level restrictions might be complex and aren't necessarily reference-able by a bot in a unified manner, except perhaps in edit notices.  can be used, but then there are also atypical ones like  and  and others that might be out in the wild (I believe  might have felt my pain with dealing with some of these a while back. :P)  Case-by-case exceptions could be made for the broad topics, but it might get awkward on the non-standard/free-form sanctions (e.g., 1RR in the context of specific content).  Plus, there have been cases where an admin adds a sanction just as a new section on the talk page(!) and you have to play hide-and-seek in the archives to find it (or not find it if one never existed and someone just slipped in the template in the talk header).  Either way, in my opinion, an edit notice should be the standard go-to for where a sanction lives, even moreso if a bot's going to be parsing through them.
 * Changes to the sanctions on the page might(?) need to prompt subsequent bot messages for the user. For example, say a page starts with a "1RR over content pertaining to his birthday" but then moves to "1RR across the page," would the broader one need implicit followup alerts? The bot would need to track or be aware of that.
 * Bots aren't always reliable, and reliance on them for critical notifications may be problematic.
 * Bot notification can sometimes be seen as bitey or annoying in general. Even with SineBot people have complained about tilde or unsigned, and thankfully I can just say sofixit or "discuss on the talk page," but arb templates are more locked down.
 * For active page-level sanctions it still makes sense to me to have and standardize around an obvious edit notice, and if someone disables their edit notices, it still seems the onus should still be on them (I mean, if you close your eyes, you still have to stop at the stop sign, even if you don't see it). That said, if edit notices aren't being shown in different UIs to begin with, I feel that's a major problem anyway that should be addressed as a loss of functionality (might need to open a ticket if it's not in our hands to modify it locally).
 * Apart from the bot thing, though, I've noticed that even people involved in disputes on a page that's clearly under an ACDS topic frequently don't, themselves, use the Alert (et al) templates, quite possibly because they're otherwise obscure and buried deep within policy pages, and the ACDS topics themselves require a level of conscious searching and discovery + familiarity. Plus, most disputes seem to erupt over simple text issues instead of technical features or templates (once more, the audience isn't necessarily template, policy, or community savvy; doubly so with the mass-popularity topics like American Politics and BLP).  So it usually take someone with a lot of experience who's ALSO conscious of what all the active DS topics are AND how to act on them to actually break out the alerts equally and without inflaming the situation, by which point a lot of anger, frustration, and disruption may have already taken place.  In that sense, the more automated (or more passive but still unmissable) the alerting process could be, likely the better.
 * So I dunno. I still think it's a relatively safe/sane balance to have two domains of alerts (e.g., page-level = passive edit notice before taking action, topic-wide = actively Alert before taking action), but I'm pretty sure someone would be able to make a bot if that route wants to be tried, too.
 * -- slakr \ talk / 02:23, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by John Carter
I know that there are talk page templates which add a form of warning box to the edit box. Someone doing a vandalism revert wouldn't see that of course, but might we rig up some template to add some form of 1RR warning to a contested article, and, maybe, also rig it to give a warning on a revert? John Carter (talk) 23:10, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Sidecomment about bots for alerts by JJE
Seeing as Opabinia has wondered about using bots for sending out alerts, there is a mini-conversational thread on WT:AE involving me, SMcCandlish and Thryduulf regarding this; the main counterpoint raised is that having a bot alert everyone making a typofix or something similarly minor may be problematic. I am too sleepy to post the "pro" arguments here, sorry. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 22:07, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Thryduulf (re DS)
The problem is that when delivered to people who aren't actually editing the content (fixing typos, rescuing dead links, template parameter errors, etc, etc) such alerts will either be seen as meaningless spam (and spamming people is never a good thing) or scare new editors away, and anyone who gets an alert while copyediting and later edits content in the area will be formally aware (they've received an alert) but not actually aware as they will likely have ignored the (then) irrelevant message. I encourage you to read and contribute to the linked discussion (and look at previous discussions too) as there are very good reasons why bot delivery to everybody has been rejected previously, and until we get AI-level bots that can accurately distinguish someone engaging with the content from someone copyediting from someone fixing templates from someone engaging in subject-irrelevant vandalism then we need humans to determine who alerts are relevant to and who they aren't. Thryduulf (talk) 12:07, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Statement by GoldenRing
I disagree with those who say editors should be notified of individual page restrictions before being sanctioned, because the result of such a rule is perverse. DS authorise admins to take any action they consider necessary for the smooth running of the project up to and including a 1 year block, so long as the editor is formally aware of the DS in place. So an editor who makes two disruptive reverts in a day can be sanctioned by an admin... unless there is a page-level 1RR restriction in place, in which case an extra notification is needed? As I say, that seems a perverse outcome. GoldenRing (talk) 22:00, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Kingsindian
I do not have much comment on most aspects of this request, but I can give my own experience: I basically never notice edit notices. I have edited for a long time in ARBPIA and my mind just filters them out. I think EdJohnston's block was reasonable, but not blocking would also have been reasonable. In discretionary sanctions areas, unfortunately everyone (including admins) tend to become cynical. If Seraphim System says that they didn't see the notice, it would have been easy enough to warn them for their first offence.

My feeling is that the warning system doesn't really need to be changed (this case was a bit unusual). But I don't have any strong opinions either way. Kingsindian &#9821; &#9818; 06:34, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by TonyBallioni (DS)
, just a brief statement on the motion regarding awareness. While you’re at it, it might make sense to remove the bit about not being aware of sanctions if you have successfully appealed a sanction: that’s pretty counterintuitive. Anyone who has gone through the dramah that is a DS appeal is more than aware that sanctions exist. If the last line contradicts it by saying they’re aware if they’ve appealed all there sanctions, it also seems like unnecessary extra verbiage. Not really related to the general part of this thread, but since your amending it, you might as well consider another simplification at the same time. TonyBallioni (talk) 19:49, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Ca2james
Regarding point three of the proposed motion (In the last twelve months, the editor has given and/or received an alert for the area of conflict). Must an alert be the formal templated notice left on a editor Talk page, or can it also be a note on an editor's Talk page saying something like, "there are discretionary sanctions on HotButtonTopic page so be careful when editing there" enough? Thanks, Ca2james (talk) 05:05, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification . It's good to know that "alert" is defined and not nebulous. Ca2james (talk) 13:20, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by SPECIFICO
My experience with DS relates only to American Politics and BLP. The DS system is not working. Admins are not able/willing to enforce it either by exercising their delegated authority or through the AE process. Admins at AE are gun-shy and unable/unwilling to judge the facts of reported incidents. There's a structural dysfunction in that the editors who are reported at AE complaints are among the most energetic, motivated, and disruptive editors on WP. It's their only way of pursuing their POV's. They're at AE because they've failed to gain consensus through normal editing process and have resorted to various forms of disruption. There are objective reasons why Admins may feel unable to function within this environment.

If DS is intended to be discretionary, then reversals on appeal should be rare and uncontroversial. But what's happened instead is that most DS get appealed, either through jawboning and lobbying the sanctioning Admin or through extensive drama threads on at AN or AE. So AE has degenerated into ANI, but with more Admin time wasted than in the ordinary ANI.

So we have a sick elephant and this amendment request is like doing plastic surgery to straighten its tail. I suggest Arbcom start with a clear statement of the purpose of DS, what is needed beyond normal resolution processes, a clear definition of the DS process and how it is intended to function, and then a set of standards and procedures.

Instead what this request is addressing is a single one of those procedures, which can only be sensibly designed after all the other issues are considered and resolved. <b style="color: #0011FF;"> SPECIFICO</b> talk 14:22, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. With respect to the question of notification: If the initial sanction against any editor is small, it serves as a warning and should not cause much concern. It's a mild rebuke. It doesn't matter much if some number of the editors who receive a first such sanction are surprised. In the majority of cases, another editor or Admin goes to the user's talk page to convey the concern prior to a block or an AE filing. In case there's good reason why that does not occur, an innocuous initial block -- which could routinely be 24 hours of contemplation, or similar -- has serves the purpose of preventing future lapses. If the problem continues, then the mandated "escalating blocks" are warranted and will not have come without warning/awareness. I don't think it's worth worrying about the small minority of editors who do something disruptive enough to be blocked without knowing their behavior was a problem and without another editor or an Admin warning them. They get a minimal first sanction and will be more aware in the future. It's just more efficient and the cost of the rare false positives is minimal. <b style="color: #0011FF;"> SPECIFICO</b> talk 18:48, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Discretionary Sanctions: Clerk notes

 * This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).



Discretionary Sanctions: Arbitrator views and discussion

 * Looking at your block log and the WP:AELOG, Ed's block wasn't an arbitration enforcement action enforcing 1RR but a normal admin block for edit warring. In fact in his comment on AN3 he says that you had engaged in long-term edit warring. Having said that, it's probably worth having a discussion on whether editors need to/should be individually notified about page-level sanctions before being sanctioned. If memory serves, I think (and this is testing my memory) that the original intention was that editors would not be sanctioned without previous notice.^ However, in practice, this hasn't been the case with admins sanctioning editors who breach page-level sanctions without prior notice (this is particularly the case for 1RR). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 00:57, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
 * ^ In the original version (1) of the 'new' system, edit notices alone were going to be considered enough to make an editor sufficiently "aware" of page-level restrictions. However, in consultation discussions about it, this was rejected and removed in the second version of the draft (see (this summary). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:56, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
 * There are a lot of comments here about what decisions have been made in the past and contradictory decisions at that. I'd suggest to all those who are commenting that evidence of these past decisions (links) is needed, nor vague recollections. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 20:53, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Regarding a difference between those specific general sanctions and discretionary sanctions in general. The SCW&ISIL general sanctions were modelled on WP:ARBPIA3 which specifically included language about 1RR applying and that, in that topic area, editors could be blocked for 1RR vios without prior notice. That is, in both circumstances, blocking without notice was specifically approved by the Committee or community. Another difference is that under the discretionary sanctions system an alert expires after a year, whereas with the SCW&ISIL general sanction the notification doesn't expire. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 21:00, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Nothing in the bit of WP:AC/DS you quoted says that the requirements of the Awareness and alerts section does not apply to the enforcement of page-level restrictions. In fact, neither the section on individual sanctions nor the section on page-level restrictions state that an editor is required to be "aware" because the Awareness section says No editor may be sanctioned unless they are aware that discretionary sanctions are in force for the area of conflict. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:56, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Only that I didn't think of it then, I was actually looking at the 2013 review page earlier this year for something else so the memories of a previous discussion about edit notices it was relatively fresh. Looking back at threads on arbcom-l from the the AP2 ARCA it looks like the committee was discussing amending AC/DS to make it clear that editors could be sanctioned without being "aware" if there was an edit notice, but that either there wasn't enough of a consensus to do it, or that something else happened and we got distracted. Given the time of year, this might be a motion which the new ArbCom will need to consider. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:28, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't think anything so specific is going to work. I'm not a big fan of giving editors a specific time limit to do something, as it can com across as an aggressive ultimatum, plus we're volunteers and there's no deadline. Consider a situation where a user makes an edit which they didn't know was violating, goes to sleep, wakes up and goes to work, then logs in to find themselves blocked). Plus any sort of time limit (IMHO) pushes it a little towards punitive rather than preventative. I'm thinking more along the lines the following as a new paragraph in either the awareness or page restrictions sections (not sure which would be best yet, though I'm leaning towards §awareness:
 * Uninvolved administrators may use their discretion to issue #sanctions (such as blocks or page/topic bans) of no more than one week in duration to editors who breach page restrictions but are not #aware of discretionary sanctions as prescribed above if the page in question includes an edit notice, using the standard template (ds/editnotice), which specifies the page-level restriction in force. This does not prevent administrators using the full range of #Sanctions against editors who do meet the #awareness criteria.
 * It needs a little wordsmithing. Note that # = link to the section on ACDS. This way, we're giving admins an ability to enforce page-level restrictions without an individual editor needing to be have been alerted (or otherwise aware) but not allowing them to impose any sanction without the editor being properly made aware. Otherwise, we're effectively creating a loop hole where any discretionary sanction can be imposed on an editor without them meeting the awareness criteria as soon as they breach a page-level restriction. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:43, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
 * There isn't really a problem with you commenting in this section. It's really only formal decisions (e.g. motions, declining request) where there's an issue. I'm a little conflicted on that, I think it's important for editors to be aware of restrictions before they are sanctioned. However, even if an editor recessive an alert it's still very likely that they won't be aware of specific page-level restrictions as the notice they receive on their talk page doesn't tell them that. So, given that, the only way to ensure that they are aware is to give them an alert and tell them about page-specific restrictions in place. That's not really a sustainable approach both in terms of logging and administrative hoops to jump through, but it is my preference from a editor point of view. From an administrator and as someone who was very active with AE my preference would be that if the article has an edit notice the editor can be sanctioned (regardless of whether they've received a notice). The problem with that approach is that it's easily missed using VisualEditor and edit notices don't appear at all in the mobile version. So, I'm still on the fence. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:05, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
 * To add (re ), my preference is that an editor would both be aware of the discretionary sanction in the topic area (through an alert or otherwise) and that the page in question had an edit notice (plus, given the technical limitations, weren't using a mobile device). That, to me, seems to be best way to ensure that an editor is aware of the restrictions which are in place. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 04:16, 24 December 2017 (UTC)


 * I too cannot see how it is reasonable to apply page-level DS without individual warning. Our system for DS is sufficiently complicated that at the very least fairness require full notice. . DGG ( talk ) 05:35, 22 December 2017 (UTC)


 * since I was asked for my general view. I personally consider the system of AE inherently unfair, unreasonable, and erratic. I have never participated in it as an admin, and I would advise other admins to use it only when there is no other solution.   Unfortunately  I cannot find an alternative, so  all we can do at the moment is try to minimize harm. At least we can require   explicit notice. '' DGG ( talk ) 04:18, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I've modified my position based on the convoluted nature of discussions on this page in the last 2 weeks. I no longer support the use at AE at all. The  system is too complicated, unclear, and  inflexible. Though I still have no suggestion for a replacement, the first thing to try is to see if we can do without it entirely.  DGG ( talk ) 18:40, 9 January 2018 (UTC)


 * I agree with DGG that the entire discretionary sanctions and general sanctions systems is a mess. We should take a hard look at their wording and implementation, because I believe it is inherently unfair to sanction an editor if that editor is unaware of a possible penalty. The burden is on us as administrators to make sure an editor is aware, as unwieldy and burdensome as that is, and we need to make it as simple as possible in order for the system to work. I'm no coder, and I don't know if this is possible, but maybe a bot could place a notice on an editor's talk page after their first edit to a page under discretionary sanctions. Or perhaps an 'are you sure?' box like the one that comes up when we try to give the DS alert on a user talk page.
 * In terms of the specifics here, Seraphim System made fifteen edits to the page in question in just over 48 hours. It strains credulity that he didn't see the 1RR edit notice with that many edits. I could possibly believe it if this were three edits, but fifteen? It's even got a hidden comment that appears directly under the places where he added his maintenance tags. Does he need bright flashing lights and sirens? Katietalk 11:37, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
 * It is my understanding that the DS notice is required to be posted as it is in the template, and that color modification (or any modification other than the topic area) is not allowed. Katietalk 03:42, 24 December 2017 (UTC)


 * The block seems reasonable. I see the problem with VE and mobile devices, but I still think that an edit notice should be sufficient. I'm sure we can improve the system but my experience is that DS in general is avoiding a lot of problems we'd have without the system. Doug Weller  talk 15:33, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Given the comment by Seraphim System about the color scheme perhaps it could have been missed, so I’ll have to reconsider my comment. Doug Weller  talk 22:15, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I think we should consider Callanecc's suggested wording. Doug Weller  talk 16:14, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Doug Weller talk 17:47, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Could you clarify whether you think just notification of discretionary sanctions in the topic area is necessary before sanction or notification of the specific page-level sanctions on each individual page? How does this opinion interact with the prominent edit notices typically used on articles under sanction? Would a notification of topic area sanctions in addition to an edit notice about the page-level sanctions be considered sufficient notification? Note I'm asking about what you think should be, not what you think is current practice/policy. Opinions from any other editors would also be appreciated. ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 05:13, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
 * As a procedural note, the Committee has no authority to modify general sanctions, which derive solely from the community. If we decide to alter the awareness requirements for discretionary sanctions, the most we can do is encourage the community to adopt the same changes. Having said that, I think we need to seriously think about what the right standard of awareness is. Should an editor have to be actually aware of a page-level restriction to be sanctioned, or should they only need to have been in a position such that a reasonable editor of limited experience would be aware? For instance, if a particularly oblivious editor misses a massive edit notice with giant font saying "This article is under 1RR" (with appropriate wikilinks to explain), should they be sanctioned if they violate that restriction? As for the technical issues (mobile browsers, mostly), that is something we can presumably refer to the WMF to develop a fix. It would be technically doable to display edit notices in mobile browsers on a page prior to the edit window. ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 14:46, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Here's my take on current policy and practice, for what it's worth. WP:AC/DS makes clear that at least a topic area-level notice must be issued before sanctioning under discretionary sanctions. A page restriction derived from discretionary sanctions can only be enforced via discretionary sanctions, so this same awareness requirement exists before sanctioning someone for violating a page restriction. Currently, there is no requirement (in policy or in practice) requiring an additional notice of a page restriction before sanctioning an editor for violating it. There's no policy requirement for edit notices, etc., but in practice, we do expect administrators to place them. The conversation on changes to this policy should probably take place at a different venue with community feedback. As for this particular block, Seraphim System hadn't been notified of discretionary sanctions in this topic area, so he should not have been sanctioned. ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 01:29, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Since it should be possible technically to place individual notices, there is no reason not to do so.  DGG ( talk ) 01:31, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
 * If there's a legitimate doubt that an editor was aware that a restriction was in place, then better practice is to warn rather than block for a violation of that restriction&mdash;unless the edit was such as to be independently blockable in any case. We have had instances (I'm not opining on whether this is one) in which an editor was blocked and sincerely had no idea why; it is important that that should not happen. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:14, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Focusing for a second on the original question, are we all agreed that at a minimum an editor cannot be sanctioned under page restrictions deriving from discretionary sanctions unless they've met the awareness criteria for that DS topic area? ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 02:03, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I am, but I'd like to add (by motion) that there also needs to be an edit notice on the article (with a footnote that admins should consider that the footnote doesn't appear when using a mobile device). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:42, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I've started working on a draft at User:Callanecc/sandbox2. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 05:06, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
 * OK, I've caught up on all the other ARCAs except this one, so I guess I can't avoid it anymore. This is thinking-out-loud as I'm catching up on the background reading; read it if you like arbs showing their work and skip it if you don't like long-ass posts ;)
 * My first reaction to all of this follows DGG and Katie's reactions that AE/DS is kind of a mess, and not only because it's unpredictable from editors' perspective but also because it must be seriously tiresome to be an admin on the receiving end of all the wikilaywering. This is not the only recent issue that centers on someone objecting to a short block and one way to manage that problem is to just deescalate the perceived significance of blocks. I'm perfectly happy to get blocked some more if necessary ;)
 * Slakr is definitely on the right track in not expecting that talk-page banners are sufficient to alert editors of the actual article. But in terms of editnotices on the article itself... I hate editnotices. Hate. For a long time I used a userscript to automatically hide them because there are so many and they're so bloated and they take up so much space on my little 11" laptop screen. (Obviously, I did not obey the one on this page that says "be succinct" ;) While I'm sure every incremental addition to every editnotice on the project seemed important and useful at the time, cumulative banner blindness is a real problem. There's also the issue Callanecc points out - editnotices are formatted differently, and often hard to read, and sometimes may not appear at all for editors using the Visual Editor or the 2017 source editor, and they're unavailable on the mobile site (and the mobile app?). Also, the edit tags indicating which editor someone used aren't perfectly reliable either, so not really a good way to judge whether someone "should" have seen a notice. In general, editnotices are not reliable methods for communicating information to editors. I was under the impression we'd already decided this once, but when I went back to look at the incident I was thinking of, the conclusion was almost the opposite of what I thought I remembered. (And for my own part, I see I was more concerned with a different aspect of AE/DS enforcement I consider problematic. I was unaware at the time of the "consultation discussion" Callanecc linked above.)
 * That being said, it is also obviously impractical for some editors on an article to be under the impression that they are working in a 3RR environment, and others to be subject to 1RR (because they've received the appropriate individual DS alerts, rather than because they personally are under an editing restriction). The best solution I can think of is a bot sending out automated alerts to the talk pages of editors to an article subject to a 1RR restriction, but I had the impression that had been considered before and decided against (either because no one wants to write the bot, or because of practical limitations that aren't immediately coming to mind).
 * Overall I think Callanecc's sandbox version is better than what we have now, but more broadly, I think the current mechanisms aren't effective in communicating restrictions to editors and are asking admins to do a lot of manual checking before sanctioning someone under those restrictions. Unless I'm missing an obvious drawback, I think we should revisit the bot-notification method. Opabinia regalis (talk) 21:57, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
 * , thanks. I actually think that's a feature, not a bug :) When the existing alerts come from specific other editors, people tend to react to them as if they're aggressive acts or personal affronts. If everybody and their mother gets one, and they come from DSBot, they're less personal. (I assume the bot could deliver just one notice per topic.) Opabinia regalis (talk) 07:39, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the follow-ups - this is a bit of a side point, since a change of that scale would be better discussed somewhere other than the middle of an ARCA, but I'll go read the other discussion in the meantime. Opabinia regalis (talk) 02:36, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
 * , what qualifies as an "alert" is spelled out Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions here and isn't being modified AFAIK. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 05:19, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Correct, we are not modifying that at all in this motion. I'm going to refactor the motion to underline the changes. ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 14:10, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I largely agree with your comments. I think there is appetite both within the Committee and among the broader editing community to overhaul how discretionary sanctions operate. This discussion is not about that, but separately, discussions about discretionary sanctions and arbitration enforcement in general are happening. ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 18:30, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Discretionary Sanctions: Motion


The Page restrictions section of the discretionary sanctions procedure is modified to the following:

The Awareness section of the discretionary sanctions procedure is modified to the following:


 * Enacted: Kevin ( aka L235 ·&#32; t ·&#32; c) 15:29, 15 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 19:28, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * 2) Thanks for proposing this Rob. Obviously support since I wrote it and my comments above. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 21:17, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * 3) Okay, because it makes it clearer, but we really need to look at the whole discretionary sanctions thing and make it work better. Katietalk 23:59, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * 4) Support, but I agree with Katie that this system is Byzantine at best. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 04:34, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
 * 5) Agree with Katie. Thanks to Rob for proposing. Alex Shih (talk) 04:51, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
 * 6) This is a good start to hopefully clearing up DS once and for all. RickinBaltimore (talk) 16:03, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
 * 7) Been mulling over this, but it does seem a general good step. <b style="text-shadow:0 -1px #DDD,1px 0 #DDD,0 1px #DDD,-1px 0 #DDD; color:#000;">Worm</b>TT(<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>) 08:27, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
 * 8) Agree with KrakatoaKatie. -- Euryalus (talk) 09:34, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
 * 9) As an improvement over current wording. -- with no implication it deals with all necessary improvements.  DGG ( talk ) 11:08, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'm not entirely sure but it's better than the old version, and maybe baby steps are the way to do this. Doug Weller  talk 12:40, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
 * 1) Per most of the other supporters. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:18, 14 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Abstain


 * Inactive
 * 1) Opabinia regalis
 * 2) DeltaQuad
 * 3) Mkdw


 * Discussion by arbitrators
 * Posting this with slight edits from User:Callanecc/sandbox2. This motion serves to add edit notices as a requirement before sanctioning for a page restriction. It also makes clearer that editors must be aware of discretionary sanctions in a topic area before being sanctioned under a page restriction. The last line in the proposed page restrictions section will probably be reformatted as a note if this passes, but it's easiest to display without a note here. ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 19:28, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't understand why successfully appealing all their sanctions makes an editor unaware of the sanctions. I know that has to be over 12 months earlier, but as suggested above, isn't it pretty certain that an editor who has had to appeal a sanction would remember it? Doug Weller  talk 12:25, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I think the logic behind having the 12 month timer at all is because editors with no sanctions/heavy involvement in the area are unlikely to follow whether discretionary sanctions have been rescinded or not. Having said that, I agree we should simplify the awareness requirements and plan to start a discussion about simplifying discretionary sanctions in general soon-ish. For now, this proposal doesn't change anything about the usual awareness requirements, and I think it's best to avoid trying to conflate this simple change with a broader overhaul of DS. ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 12:32, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Changes are now underlined while removed text is struck. ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 14:13, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

A party excluding themselves from a case
Is this acceptable? Next time I am named a party may I please do the same if I do not like the case?--Ymblanter (talk) 19:22, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
 * It was undone 6 hours ago by a clerk. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:38, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I see, thanks.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:41, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Clarification, Perhaps
User:L235 - This is in response to https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArbitration%2FRequests%2FCase&type=revision&diff=823244242&oldid=823234564.

Yes. The policy states that editors are expected to respond, and that failure to respond may result in action being taken anyway. That is consistent with what I said.

The current procedure provides a lot of options, some of which do and some of which do not seem consistent with common sense and intent of the policy. It says that the Committee may dismiss the case, suspend the case, continue with the case, or dispose of the case by motion. Some of those options seem more appropriate for cases where the party who fails to participate or is unable to participate is a filing party than a responding party. I think that it is a matter of common sense and fairness that the ArbCom should proceed with the case rather than allow the named party to gum up the case by requesting permission to hide in a hole. I am asking the ArbCom to proceed with the case, because the inability of the responding party to respond is entirely of their own making. Thank you. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:09, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

civility issues request
Could someone kindly add the following to the civility issues request? Thanks.

Remark from uninvolved 173.228.123.121
Maybe I'm missing something, but nobody seems to have mentioned this so I guess I will.

Several people have referred to infobox disagreements as content disputes, or have said BRD should apply to the addition or removal of infoboxes. On the other hand, several others have pointed to a place in the MOS where it says infoboxes are optional. So there's unclarity about whether box inclusion is a a content matter or a style matter.

If infoboxes are indeed under the purview of the MOS, then I'd expect MOS:STYLERET to apply to their inclusion/noninclusion, i.e. the opposite of BRD. That means fly-by additions and removals should stop, they should be reverted immediately when they happen, and editors who make them persistently should be sanctioned.

It does seem to me that in most of the articles that attract these disputes, they are primarily a style matter, which (keeping with MOS dispute tradition) might explain the intensity of the conflicts over them. In other sorts of articles like those about chemical elements, they're more properly content and sure enough, there are fewer disputes about their inclusion.

I do notice that quite a lot of britannica.com articles have boxes (someone said they didn't).

Disclosure: of the other statements here, I'm sympathetic to Dr. Blofeld's and similar ones. An arb case, if opened, should cover a fairly wide range. It can't be purely about Cassianto. 173.228.123.121 (talk) 18:00, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done &mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 18:31, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks. 173.228.123.121 (talk) 22:05, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Case Nomenclature Inconsistency Observation
I don't know if this is just me noticing something that isn't meant to be noticed, or noticing something that doesn't have an explanation. However, there seems to be an inconsistency in the naming of the two cases that were filed in late January 2018. Both of them were originally designated by the filing parties as referring to particular editors. Because there is a preconception among some (but not all) editors and arbitrators that the name of a case predetermines whether the subject editor will be sanctioned, one of the cases has been renamed, but not the other. The case that was filed against Cassianto has been renamed "Civility Issues". However, there is disagreement as to whether it is really about civility issues; or about infoboxes, and how to decide when articles should have infoboxes; or both. The other case is, at least to my view, unmistakably about civility, about an identified editor who is sometimes sanctioned for incivility, and about other editors who provoke him, and about how to deal with taunting and baiting of irascible editors. Both cases involve civility issues, but the one that has the name of an editor is entirely about civility issues, and the one that was renamed also involves a content issue (that results in conduct issues). I was just wondering if anyone else wondered why the second case was renamed, and not the first. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:04, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

By the way, I think that the answer to the question of infobox wars is to mandate the use of the Request for Comments when there is no pre-existing local consensus, so that failure to use the RFC option should be considered tendentious. That is my opinion. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:04, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I think the reason for the difference is that in the first case, the conduct being examined is that of a single editor (or a single editor and the conduct of those interacting with them, I'm not following that case in detail) but in the second its the conduct of multiple editors that most commenters (including me) believe needs examining. The second request was initially also to look at a single individual, possibly because the filer was unaware of the extent of the wider dispute, but was renamed when it became clear to a clerk (probably after a request from an arb) that the actual request was broader. This doesn't necessarily mean that both decisions about naming were correct (although I'm very much in the camp that believes any prejudice from case naming is unproven at best as other factors are not being controlled for in those that have looked at it). Thryduulf (talk) 15:26, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2018
I started editing at the french wikipedia, at the psychology project as I am psychoanalyst, PhD, university teachning, and have scientific responsabilities at a very high international level. The psychology team of the WikiPedia.fr is hold by Pierrette13, and two other psychologists Cathroterdam (experimental) and Bruynek (auto-declared psychoanalyst). They didn't like my arrival and I was new and didn't kno at this moment how to edit, they started treating me agressively, every time I tried to contribute I was forced out, two request at the administers were sold out by my blocking, and now again they are forcing a global block.  During all previous attempts to discuss and explane myself my diff wasn't take into account. It is troue that when they agress me I am pointing out. For exemple they errased my page yelling on my and making fun etc, etc. They are following me and interfere to my editing, and then they pretend that I am following them. Could you check the history ? I will be willing to send you more details and diffs, but honestly I am not sure any more that someone could examine my request.Could you help me please? --Marloen (talk) 21:07, 4 February 2018 (UTC) Marloen (talk) 21:07, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: The English Wikipedia has no control over anything that happens on the French Wikipedia pages, you would need to raise this in the appropriate venue there. Amortias (T)(C) 21:12, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Dates on 2018 Motions
The motions in the 2018 section appear to have 2017 dates. I think the dates are wrong, not the header. Alternatively, I could have completely misunderstood as a new editor. Thank you, GreyGreenWhy (talk) 16:39, 8 February 2018 (UTC)


 * That is, in the motions archive, seeing this is a central talk page. Thanks, GreyGreenWhy (talk) 16:41, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * That is, the four entries in the motion table for 2018 should have '2017' replaced by '2018' in the 'Date enacted' column. EdJohnston (talk) 16:48, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Surely mere mortals can change this instead of asking clerks to do it? Right?  I've fixed it. Thanks, User:GreyGreenWhy. --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:55, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks both. GreyGreenWhy (talk) 17:09, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Aliases for arbitration cases
Following up on the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard/Archive 36, I created a proof-of-concept template to create aliases for the cases opened in 2017 and 2018. Thus the following wiki markup will result in the following:

Module:Sandbox/isaacl/ArbCaseAlias/data contains the lookup table that needs to be kept up to date. So if anyone is eager to start using their own preferred labelling scheme now, it can be done. As an optimization, with this implementation, all of the aliases need to have a common prefix format, such as year. This could be made more flexible, but at the cost of having to search through every single case alias for a match. isaacl (talk) 05:25, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

A template I created
As some arbitrators explain some of their comments are not that the particular comment was not in their capacity of an arb, I created the template to facilitate adding the message  in front or at the back of an Arbs comments. Cheers — <b style="font-variant:small-caps;">Frc Rdl</b> 09:56, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Mobile phone editors
Are mobile phone editors allowed to start ARCA cases? GoodDay (talk) 01:30, 16 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Why should it matter whether and editor is working from a phone, or a tablet, or a Mac, or a PC, or Linux, or...? Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:35, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I assume GoodDay means unregistered editors. --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 01:38, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I meant the unregistered ones. GoodDay (talk) 01:41, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah, OK. I took a quick look through the instructions and policies and didn't see anything restricting ARCA to named accounts. An experienced arb or clerk would know better. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:50, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Per Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Header you must be autoconfirmed to file a new request at AE, though I am not aware of any similar restriction for arbitration cases. EdJohnston (talk) 16:50, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
 * There's currently no restriction on why can file a clarification/amendment request. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 11:05, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Request to exceed 500 words
I am not good at forming succinct statements, and given the enormity of this situation and the multiple issues brought up, I need to go beyond the 500 word limit. I would be very hard pressed to cut anything without showing the full scope of my grievances. --Tarage (talk) 06:38, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

500 word limit
My original "Statement" was 439 words; following requests for further information/comments by other parties, it has now grown to 1088 wds.

Is the 500 wd limit applicable only to the original statement or do I now need to edit the whole thing down? Thanks.

Grant &#124;  Talk  05:13, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Request to exceed 500 words
I think I am already over the limit. I do not think I will have much more to say but I wanted ask to make sure. If I need to trim, or if I am not available and a clerk need to trim my request please remove the quotes associated with diffs. I find it easier if the key text of diffs is included inline but it is not necessary. Thank you. Jbh Talk  20:23, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I have it down to 1027 by wordcounttools.com. I can trim and diff some of the narrative if required or rewrite the whole thing but I'd really prefer not to. I would like some leeway to reply to questions/observations by the Arbs when they opine. Thank you.  Jbh  Talk  14:06, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Original request re-written to meet limit. I still am over for addressing arb's issues. Jbh  Talk  05:05, 7 April 2018 (UTC)


 * I re-wrote my initial request to comply with word limits. The text you replied to was removed. This is a diff of what you replied to if you would like to reference it in your statement for continuity. Jbh  Talk  05:05, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I re-wrote my initial request to comply with word limits. Text you referenced is not in the re-write. This is a permalink to the last version which contained that text. Jbh  Talk  05:19, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Case rename
I have no objection to the name change but would you please put in anchors so that the notification diffs and other links to the original case names are not broken. Thank you. Jbh Talk  14:17, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Done! Thank you for giving me the occasion to learn how to do that.  Jehochman Talk 17:24, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

All three currently active case requests have been renamed...could a clerk or arb please either update Template:ArbComOpenTasks/CaseRequests or put in anchors as described above? Thanks, ansh 666 04:47, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 April 2018
--2602:30A:2E8F:8ED0:316F:E65F:EBFA:541C (talk) 23:17, 10 April 2018 (UTC) nick 5555 is to be sanctioned for breaching the edit notice.

x 2602:30A:2E8F:8ED0:316F:E65F:EBFA:541C (talk) 23:17, 10 April 2018 (UTC) nick 55555 is to be sanctioned for breaching the edit notice policy.
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. —   IVORK  Discuss 23:27, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

I don't understand
Hey, OR and NYB, I'm sorry to message y'all here about this, as I'm sure you and the rest of Arbcom get plenty of flak for this and all other things Arbcom; I don't really like adding to it. I'm also sorry to single (double?) the two of you out, but you've been the arbs to articulate your positions most extensively. I'm not adding this to the arb request itself because that seems a little silly even without the word counts, and what I'm hoping for is to just get a little actual threaded conversation to help me understand where y'all are coming from.

I'm just surprised at how big the disconnect is between my, and a few others', analysis of this whole FPaS situation and what seems like everyone else's, and I just want to understand where people are coming from. OR, You say that FPaS's position is a real, substantive argument that deserves to be handled on its merits, and I totally agree with that, and I also totally agree with the argument itself. But, like, my whole thing is that FPaS didn't argue it; they imposed it through edit-warring and, worse, page protection. That seems to me like it's worse than counterproductive; to me, it looks like abuse, and I'm struggling to understand the view of people who say it doesn't. I don't understand how people think that all this counted as an admin action as far as INVOLVED goes--like you said, FPaS had an argument and a position, which aren't words I associate with admin actions. NYB, I also understand that FPaS thought that their own actions were admin actions and thus in their mind they weren't committing an INVOLVED action, but FPaS doesn't get to make that call; otherwise, admins would be able to do whatever they want as long as they call it an admin action. I'm sorry to keep going back to it, but that was one of the things with the Kww case; they thought they were exempt from INVOLVED because they thought they were performing admin actions, but they weren't. It just seems like there's a clear parallel between the two incidents here, and it seems like the only difference between them is that, by and large, people agree with FPaS's position here; but if that's what's making the difference, that's deeply troubling to me, because like I quoted in my statement, being right is not a defense when it comes to edit warring, and it definitely shouldn't be one when it comes to INVOLVED.

I'm not trying to re-litigate the case, I promise; like I said, I don't think a case is always necessary for one incident and this isn't the worst thing ever. But this does look like A Bad Thing, and pretty obviously one at that, so I'm just trying to understand the (loads of) people who disagree. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 15:26, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Short response because I have to catch a train, but: if someone did exactly what FPAS did over (to steal an example from the case request) the alleged "POV" in a message about a TV show getting canceled, it'd look a lot worse. And if someone did exac§tly what FPAS did over a message praising [fill in your favorite example of murderous tyrant, serial killer, etc. here] then we'd thank him for getting obviously inappropriate garbage off our project. (That's why I'm fairly dismissive of "bright line" arguments in general - it's almost never the case that someone's actions are interpretable outside the specific context that motivated them.) Graham, and plenty of other prominent public figures, is in the big gray area in between, but "we shouldn't have praise for [someone widely perceived as] a bigot on dozens of talk pages in a quasi-official-looking format" is a substantively different claim from "we shouldn't have praise for a TV show", and not something it is inherently unreasonable to think warrants admin intervention. To be clear, that doesn't mean I think FPAS did the right thing, but the arguments against his actions based on WP:WHATEVER seem to me to miss the context that the specific thing he was removing is not just something he personally disagreed with, but something that arguably put the whole project in a poor light. Opabinia regalis (talk) 17:05, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Sure, I get that. There's definitely a range of different contexts that this could be applicable to, and I'd agree that the TV show analogies are not very apt. But it's the fact that this was arguable and a gray area that has me concerned. I'm worried that, while people acknowledge that FPaS didn't do optimally, they're giving FPaS a pass because *they* agree with him, and that's a bad precedent to set. The criteria for ignoring (in an IAR sense) rules related to edit-warring and most especially admin actions isn't whether some or a lot of people agree with you, it should be that essentially *everyone* agrees with you, which is why we have the expections to edit-warring explicitly laid out in the policy, and why the criteria for performing potentially-INVOLVED actions is that no reasonable admin would disagree. That in my mind is a very important check on the power of admins, and I feel like it's getting lost here. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 19:21, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I largely agree with what Opabinia regalis has said (both on the case page and above). I had actually typed a couple of paragraphs more here, but it turns out I had just repeated the substance what O.r. and I have already said, so I won't add to everyone's reading burden. Insofar as you (Writ Keeper) are concerned about setting a bad precedent, I don't think that is likely. If a given situation hasn't come up before in the 17 years of the project, I don't think it's likely to start coming up often now. In the hopefully unlikely event that it does, we can of course revisit the issue. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:39, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
 * User:Newyorkbrad What? Edit-warring comes-up all the time on the project, and the defense to it is not 'I thought I was in holy cause and right.' And even then, Opibinia's extremist nonsense example (which is actually the situation that is unlikely to occur) shows that you have to get like universal approval of your side in the edit-war, which going into the edit war FPaS knew they did not have, because remember they  began with something like "I know a bunch you you disagree'.  That's just edit warring, and yes it is likely to occur again, it happens regularly.   Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:49, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Given this Arbcom case request, this situation is not likely to come up again in the near future but yes, I agree with you that Newyorkbrad's assertion is kind of strange if he's talking about general past history and not FPaS in particular. --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 19:57, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what you mean about this being Arbcom, unless you mean that they are the only ones to address admin overreach, but really, come now, participating in an edit war and then basing tool use on the fact that there is an edit war that you are participating in, is incorrect editor and admin action, it would be incorrect for anyone, really (just not everyone has all those tools), so it should not be difficult to say, 'incorrect.' Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:03, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
 * If you look at my ANI comments and comments on the request, you'll see I agree with you. What I'm saying up above is that given the amount of attention and fuss the action has attracted, it is unlikely another admin will do the same thing in the near future. --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 20:11, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Actually no, all they have to do is argue this is really important to the project (and get a select few of Wikipedians to say, 'oh sure, perhaps'). Because what, goodness knows they won't be edit-warring over things that are not super-duper important, right. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:17, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I think you are both overlooking that (as far as I can see) none of the arbitrators who have commented are praising or endorsing FPaS's actions. But one needs to at least understand the rationale for a person's actions, even if one disagrees with either the actions or the rationale, before evaluating them. I still think the specific type of dispute that arose here is unlikely to recur, but you may all be right that I am defining the relevant class of disputes more narrowly than some of you. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:37, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I am not overlooking specifically your analysis that did, it seemed to me, say it was incorrect -- in fact, I defended your analysis elsewhere because I thought precisely you were saying FPaS actions were incorrect. As for understanding their POV, I do understand it and I understand it may weigh in mitigation differently for different Users, but it still does not make edit warring correct dispute resolution.  Every active editor knows that sometimes they feel the right thing to do is revert, and the temptation to revert again, and again is very strong because 'it's the right thing to do for the project'. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:17, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
 * • Damn. I really wish you two had not used Graham's bigotry as a mitigating factor. I proceeded under the assumption that we do not single out people for different treatment or apply different rules of behavior based on who they are or what they believe. You put me in an extremely uncomfortable — real- not wiki-uncomfortable — position. I do not like bigots in general and I flat out despise Graham's flavor of bigotry. I expressly chose not to ponder what was behind FPaS's actions. I will address the issue as briefly as I can:  To use Graham's views as mitigation one must assume intense emotion, up to flat out hatred, driving FPaS's actions. I believe it is reasonable to presume, should that have been the case, they would have a similar emotional reaction to those who express views similar to Graham and their failure to recognize that intense emotion was clouding their judgment, or recognizing it and proceeding anyway, speaks more to the potential for repetition than to mitigation.  Regardless of his beliefs there is a huge segment of the population, some of them Wikipedia editors, who do not share the view that Graham was a bad man. Those people are readers, editors and, article subjects. Members of Arbcom can not privilege their own morality, and those who share it, over those who do not.  I know it is tough but I have no sympathy. You all chose to be the final arbiters of behavior for this community and to uphold the values of Wikipedia rather than your own.  Jbh  Talk  22:11, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Suggestions that FPaS should have asked another admin to take action are ignoring the reality that the newsletter was about to be distributed and arguing about it afterwards would have been pointless. That is the key reason that an admin could revert and then protect in a short period. Five uninvolved editors endorsed the action by FPaS at the ANI discussion so arb declines are, at the very least, not contrary to community expectations. Johnuniq (talk) 02:51, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
 * All your evidence shows is that FPaS actions were controversial in the community (without consensus), FPaS knew that going in when they participated in the edit war. As for it being on people's talk pages, what would have happened, people can just delete it; people can stop their subscription, or some complain to the newsletter editors, like any controversial thing that is in the Signpost, which is on many more people's talk pages; or leave it where it gets less views than the controversial content of the Top 25 (who wrote, prior to this newsletter that Graham was a bastion of Christianity). We do have some evidence of what would have happened, nothing, because the Newsletter that went out said the same thing about Graham, except it bolstered it as the view of many, instead of one. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:48, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
 * How is that five uninvolved editors endorsed the action by FPaS? How many uninvolved editors opposed it? How could Arbcom overrule the ANI discussion which was somewhat unclear as it had only run for $21 1/2$ hours, but which certainly did not oppose the action? Johnuniq (talk) 02:24, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Multiple editors in that discussion including admins condemned or spoke against FPaS actions, at least as many if not more than five (but your hang-up on numbers is not actually relevant because not-a-vote). So, there was well articulated opposition to FPaS's actions, and FPaS knew it when they edit warred. Alanscottwalker (talk) 09:44, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, I guess it was predictable for this to get a little out of hand. NYB, the scenario I'm worried about precedent for is an admin thinking to themself, "I'm performing this edit to enforce some policy, and that makes my actions admin actions from the perspective of edit-warring/INVOLVED". That's bad and dangerous logic; there's a reason that we *explicitly* exclude that kind of thing from the edit warring exceptions, even if it's a correct enforcement of whatever policy, and then INVOLVED follows on from that. I do understand that all these other factors--the project-in-disrepute angle, the imminent publishing of the newsletter, etc.--can mitigate the severity of the issue, but they don't make it not an issue. If y'all agree with all that, and I know that you aren't endorsing FPaS, then we're good as far as I'm concerned. The ideal scenario I think would have y'all pass a motion to make all this explicit, so that if this ever comes up again we have something concrete to point to, but it's your call as to whether that's worth it or not; that's why you make those big Arbcom bucks. :) I'm just trying to find common ground, and I hope this qualifies. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 14:48, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I think what O.r. and I are saying is that there is content that would be clearly acceptable in a newsletter, there is content that would be clearly unacceptable, and there is content that is somewhere in-between. FPaS might have done a better job in discerning where the line should be drawn between content that can be deleted by an administrator's fiat, and content to be addressed through normal consensus mechanisms. I can understand why at first blush why the lack of clearer standards might seem intolerable&mdash;won't there inevitably be problems of line-drawing? But the answer turns out to be that while theoretically there might be, in reality there probably won't. The precedent I invoke in reaching that conclusion is the precedent of userspace. As I mentioned in my comments on the case request, a dozen years ago the ArbCom had a case in which an administrator dealt unilaterally with an editor who insisted on including pro-Nazi and pro-Fascist material on his userpage. ArbCom sided with the administrator and emphasized that userspace may not contain material that is intentionally provocative or would bring the project into disrepute. This is now policy. In pure theory, this is an intolerably subjective standard: one person's disruption and disrepute is another's core belief, just as one person's terrorist can be another's freedom fighter, and so forth. In practice, there have been few if any problems in deciding what userspace content should be summarily deleted, what should go to MfD, and what should be left alone. I don't anticipate any greater degree of problems in the context of newsletters and similar communications. If there is one thing I may have gained in my years of adminning and arbitrating here, it is a sense of which issues are likely to be recurring ones and which are likely to be isolated; of which disputes need to be cut through and definitively resolved, and which can safely be left to fade into the past. My considered judgment is that this one falls into the latter category. As I said earlier, if it turns out that further developments show me to have been incorrect in that judgment, we can always revisit this issue. Regards,Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:01, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Okay, that's fair enough. Thanks for your patience, NYB. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 15:15, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

But, we already know for a fact that this was not "clearly unacceptable", we knew that before the edit war that there was no such consensus and we know that now that it was not clearly unacceptable,  so it's plain false to contend that it was. It has nothing to do with line drawing really, it has to do with a false insistence that there is/was policy, a false view of consensus, and a false view of power to be thrown around - if there is any line, the line has already been drawn - no edit warring. Actually we already know it's not fading in the past, we now, because of a misguided effort to turn a blind eye -- we certainly know that edit warring is not going away, and admins who are suppose to turn and say. . ., and the effort to turn the blind eye has now stirred up all kinds of sins of FPaS past (which is the natural response to the odd insistence that we really need an ongoing pattern to just say a simple 'incorrect' - way to not settle things). -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:56, 11 April 2018 (UTC) UTC)
 * I really do not see why you are trying to dismiss this as some policy disagreement. It is not. It is an issue of behavior. It is a question of whether FPaS can keep their hands off their mop when they are emotional. I was OK (sort of) with AbrCom minimizing the issues I brought up as a one-off. Well, that whole theory is bullshit. FPaS, I now see, was admonished for intemperate admin actions which involved, bad, hot headed blocks that were arguably INVOLVED (I say argueably because, well, Arbcom decided to minimize the behavior and deal with it by motion so...). So, you have a pattern of poor admin behavior. Both cased raise questions of INVOLVED - one re blocks and one re page protection. Is an INVOLVED detetion needed as well to show misbehavior in all major administrative realms? When I opened this I said I was not going to dig into FPaS's prior acts. The abuse was clear and I saw no reason to go hunting for dirt. Now, without digging I find a prior on point case. Will ArbCom now deal with the issue or do you need more evidence of a pattern of misbehavior? Jbh  Talk  18:09, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

I realize the problem with the word limits etc., but I really wish this discussion were taking place with more than one or two of the arbitrators. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:23, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Well personally, I was flabbergasted to see experienced administrators show up at ANI to defend obvious misuse of the tools, by bending over backward with fairly bizarre interpretations of policy, and fundamental confusion between which side of a content dispute they fell on, and whether propriety for administrator conduct had been thrown out the window. I'm dumbfounded to see two arbs with apparently a desire to do similarly. This is, to my mind, not a test of whether abuse occurred. I have enough faith in my own common sense for that much, and so does the community. It is a test of whether ArbCom is functioning correctly, or somehow needs to be fixed so that it does.
 * It may be worth remembering that it is the remit of ArbCom to decide whether an instance or pattern of administrator misconduct has occurred, not to predict the future, or whether the community should just go have a pint and wait for the whole thing to blow over. A finding of whether ArbCom can fix infoboxes may be one of expediency or practicality; a finding of whether or not administrator misconduct occurred is a finding of fact. You either do or do not condone the winning of an edit war through protection. If you do, then that answers the question, and we can move on to what exactly we need to do to fix that, because ArbCom and the community have apparently parted ways.  G M G  <sup style="color:#000;font-family:Impact">talk  11:55, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Umm, perhaps "flabbergasted to see experienced administrators..." indicates that the community has not parted ways from Arbcom. Johnuniq (talk) 23:05, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
 * If a handful of admins show up and make an argument that is wildly out of step with policy, the only thing it makes them is wrong. Despite what I'm sure have been several well intentioned phab tickets to amend this obvious oversight by the WMF, "being right" is not yet part of the toolkit, although we should certainly look into adding that to the community wish list.  G M G  <sup style="color:#000;font-family:Impact">talk  12:13, 13 April 2018 (UTC)