Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list/Archive 2

Request for clarification: Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list
Initiated by  Biruitorul Talk at 21:55, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
 * (initiator)

Statement by Biruitorul
Do the topic bans handed out here cover obvious vandalism? To give one example: three days ago, this guy, with four edits, vandalized four articles (vaunted BLPs no less). Vandalism has lain uncorrected in three of those. I, with 63,031 edits, over 99.8% of which have been constructive and positive contributions to the project (indeed, one of those articles was written by me), can do nothing about it. And I'm also the only one who seems to care. Doesn't the Committee find this state of affairs a bit odd? - Biruitorul Talk 21:55, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Martintg
Carcharoth laments "There has to be a way to get others to revert vandalism like this", well there isn't. Most of EE is obscure to the majority of Wikipedians and they simply don't care to the point that sneaky vandalism goes undetected. There is only a small number who do care enough, but you topic banned most of them, the majority with 99.9% good contributions. And if something as simple as vandalism goes unattended, then certainly something more complex like content creation and expansion will be even more so neglected for 12 months while these editors serve out their topic bans. A 12 month ban on participating in AfDs or move discussions given the FoF on canvassing and a 12 month 0RR restriction to cover the co-ordinated edit warring would have been sufficient. The current broad topic bans are both punitive and damaging to the project, there were no FoF in regard to inappropriate content creation or vandalism. --Martin (talk) 00:15, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Kotniski
Any uncontroversial edits (reverting vandalism at the very least) should be exempt from topic bans. We are trying to build an encyclopedia here, not run a penal system, and it is a very well-established principle that rules (which I hope includes ArbCom decisions) can be ignored if they stop you from improving Wikipedia. This should be made clear by ArbCom and the community in all the appropriate places, to avoid the need for this sort of question to be asked.--Kotniski (talk) 10:48, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, and I fully agree with Martin's comment above. I hope this year's ArbCom will see, where last year's so often failed to see, that "remedies" ought to be targeted specifically at the problems identified.--Kotniski (talk) 10:53, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Arbitrator views and discussion

 * Most editing policies and restrictions inherently include an exception for obvious vandalism, blatant BLP violations, and clear cut copyright violations. I would be surprised and disappointed if edit warring rules, editing restrictions, or other boundaries resulted in sanctions for reverting such edits. Vassyana (talk) 10:41, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I recall an earlier clarification on a different case that seemed to contradict what Vassyana is saying, but I can't recall whether it applied to topic bans or site bans. Generally, keeping articles watchlisted that you have previously created and edited in a topic area you are later banned from can be a problem, especially if the articles are obscure. But here they weren't obscure. I fear this is more a case of people believing the edit summary ("name corection") made by the IP editor - most normal vandalism would have been reverted, and hence the problem would not arise. If you are the first to notice, you should correct vandalism on BLPs, but fundamentally, the Wikipedia system cannot work if such watchlisting relies on one editor only. There has to be a way to get others to revert vandalism like this, allowing topic bans to operate effectively. Carcharoth (talk) 09:31, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Martin, if you can gather evidence that the broadness of the topic bans is having a deleterious effect on content, please do so, but that will require more than one or two examples. What would then happen would depend on what exactly the effect of the topic bans has been. Maybe ask for a three- or six-month review at some point, and present your evidence then? If clear vandalism and BLP edits are building up without reversion, revert them and come back sooner, but give some time for others to do the reversions. Maybe what is needed here is for topic-banned users to provide lists of articles for others to watchlist? Carcharoth (talk) 04:25, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Will not be commenting due to prior involvement with case. Shell  babelfish 11:55, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Vassyana is correct, those are standard exceptions unless otherwise stated, but be smart about, save yourself the potential trouble and report to the appropriate forum. — Rlevse • Talk  • 12:49, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Concur with Rlevse in all respects. Steve Smith (talk) 14:41, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Also agree with Rlevse. KnightLago (talk) 22:07, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Rlevse sums it up nicely. SirFozzie (talk) 17:06, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Aye, as what Rlevse said. - Mailer Diablo 03:19, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Support the above, just use caution. If it could reasonably be seen as a constructive edit, ask about it on a noticeboard. Hers fold  (t/a/c) 03:23, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * No reasonable administrator would block a user for reverting obvious vandalism, but caveat that obviousness is the eye of the beholder. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:33, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Request to amend prior case: EEML (3)
Initiated by  Martin (talk) at 03:32, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Case affected : Eastern European mailing list


 * Clauses to which an amendment is requested
 * 1) Remedy 7


 * List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
 * (initiator)


 * Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request
 * NA

Amendment 1

 * 
 * The topic ban applied to is amended.  Martintg may edit the articles listed below solely to add references and to make such incidental changes as may be necessary to bring the article into compliance with the sources used. In the event that any such edits become contentious, Martintg is expected to cease involvement in the relevant article. Martintg may also create a category for unreferenced Estonia-related biographies of living persons, tag articles for inclusion in that category, and announce the category's existence at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Estonia.

Statement by Martintg
This request is an extension to Radek's previous request concerning the sourcing of Polish BLPs. There are a number of Estonia related BLPs also lacking references. Steve Smith suggested that if Radek's request passes I should identify specific BLP articles in need of sourcing. I have amalgamated the two amendments (BLP sourcing and category creation) into one since they are both related to the list of articles mentioned below.

Preliminary list of Estonia related unsourced BLPs that would be excluded from the topic ban for purposes of referencing
I've returned from vacation and have now gone through all the BLPs and the following require sourcing: Natalja Abramova, Allan Alaküla, Toomas Altnurme, Maire Aunaste, Toomas Frey, Piret Järvis, Ülle Kukk, Teet Kask, Ülo Kaevats, Kaur Kender, Vilma Kuusk, Malle Leht, Andres Lipstok, Leiki Loone, Sven Lõhmus, Ene Mihkelson, Helle Meri, Kristine Muldma, Sulev Mäeltsemees, Ester Mägi, Sulev Oll, Birgit Õigemeel, Reet Priiman, Tiit Pääsuke, Kuno Pajula, Aarne Ruben, Martti Soosaar, Peeter Torop, Endel Taniloo, Taimo Toomast, Indrek Toome, Hannes Võrno, Mart Ummelas

Statement by other editor
{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Further discussion

 * Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor
Response to Risker: The way that I understand the wording of this proposal is that the onus is on me to step back from any article that may become contentious. Basically, if somebody reverts a source I put in an article for whatever reason, or brings up some other objection, the plan is to completely leave that article alone and let the other person(s) deal with it. In other words I take the proposal to specifically state that it is on me not to let myself be baited into battlegrounds or edit wars, if this is attempted. However, I don't think is likely to be a problem; the sourcing of the first 26 articles went smoothly and I see no reason for why this shouldn't continue.

Having said that I do want to note that I very much doubt that these articles will get sourced by some other means. Even after an announcement on Wiki Project Poland (per last amendment) not that much help has been forthcoming. So, very likely, absent my efforts most of those BLPs are going to end up just sitting there unsourced or end up deleted (and some of them consider very notable people).radek (talk) 06:35, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Clerk notes

 * This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

 * Noted. Please be patient and allow time for discussion and voting. Could be anything up to a week. Carcharoth (talk) 07:46, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Motions
1) Topic ban narrowed (Radeksz)

The topic ban applied to is amended. Radeksz may edit articles in Category:Poland related unreferenced BLP as of February 8, 2010, solely to add references and to make such incidental changes as may be necessary to bring the article into compliance with the sources used. In the event that any such edits become contentious, Radeksz is expected to cease involvement in the relevant article.

Enacted ~ Amory  (u • t • c) 18:02, 13 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Proposed. The last round seems to have gone off without a hitch, and this really isn't an enormous category. Steve Smith (talk) 23:27, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * 2) Kirill [talk] [prof] 01:07, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * 3) Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:11, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * 4) Fritzpoll (talk) 12:10, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * 5) Cool Hand Luke 04:31, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Roger Davies talk 04:39, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) KnightLago (talk) 14:36, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * 2) Mailer Diablo 12:39, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Abstain
 * 1) I am concerned that we may quickly see the return of the battlefield mentality, if not in Radeksz then in some of the editors on the other side of this issue, which may lead Radeksz into difficult-to-manage situations. I hope that administrators will consider any behaviour that could be considered baiting of Radeksz to be serious violations of our user behaviour policies (such as WP:GAME) and the prior decisions of this Committee. Particular attention may need to be paid to removal of newly inserted reference sources, or any other signs that a BLP is becoming a battlefield. Risker (talk) 23:54, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Recuse
 * 1) Shell   babelfish 00:14, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * 2) I recused on the case, so on second thoughts I'll recuse on this.   Roger Davies  talk 05:58, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

2) Topic ban narrowed (Martintg)

The topic ban applied to is amended. Martintg may edit the articles listed here solely to add references and to make such incidental changes as may be necessary to bring the article into compliance with the sources used. In the event that any such edits become contentious, Martintg is expected to cease involvement in the relevant article.

Enacted ~ Amory  (u • t • c) 18:02, 13 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Proposed. It worked well with Radek, and there seems little reason not to try it with Martin. Steve Smith (talk) 23:27, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * 2) Kirill [talk] [prof] 01:07, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * 3) Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:11, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * 4) Fritzpoll (talk) 12:10, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * 5) Cool Hand Luke 04:31, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Roger Davies talk 04:39, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) KnightLago (talk) 14:36, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * 2) Mailer Diablo 12:39, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Abstain
 * 1) I have similar concerns about altering this topic ban as I do for altering Radeksz's topic ban.  Risker (talk) 23:54, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Recuse
 * 1) Shell   babelfish 00:14, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * 2) I recused on the case, so on second thoughts I'll recuse on this.   Roger Davies  talk 05:58, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Request to amend prior case: EEML
Initiated by  — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk at 21:34, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Case affected :


 * Clauses to which an amendment is requested
 * 1) Remedy 3: Piotrus is topic banned from articles about Eastern Europe, their associated talk pages, and any process discussion about same, widely construed, for one year.


 * List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
 * (initiator)


 * Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request
 * Piotrus

Amendment 1

 * Remedy 3: Piotrus is topic banned from articles about Eastern Europe, their associated talk pages, and any process discussion about same, widely construed, for one year.
 * See below for proposed modification and alternative proposal.

Statement by Malik Shabazz
User:Piotrus used to perform a number of uncontroversial housekeeping tasks for WikiProject Poland that did not involve content editing of articles related to Poland. For example, he monitored newly-created Poland-related articles and, where appropriate, added applicable clean-up tags (including nominating them for deletion when necessary), nominated them for DYK, and invited their creators to the WikiProject. (A fairly complete list of his former responsibilities can be found here.)

When Piotrus was blocked, User:Jniech volunteered to take on some of those responsibilities. Jniech made a good faith effort, but for a variety of reasons Jniech has not been able to keep up with the necessary tasks. Both Jniech and I have asked for assistance, but none of the other WikiProject Poland members have volunteered to step in. Consequently, these tasks have not been performed for several months.

I hereby request an amendment to Piotrus's topic ban in order that he may once again perform these housekeeping tasks and post messages to WikiProject Poland to inform other editors about such tasks. Piotrus would be strictly prohibited from editing the content of any Poland-related articles except for the types of uncontroversial maintenance edits mentioned above.

In the alternative, I request an amendment to Piotrus's topic ban in order that he may inform me of any new Poland-related articles that, in his opinion, should be tagged for clean-up (including deletion), or of any other WikiProject-related tasks.

Statement by Nihil novi
To the best of my knowledge, all that Malik Shabazz says above is true. Piotrus has played an essential role in the production and maintenance of articles pertaining to Poland and Poland's broader geographic and historic milieu. Had Piotrus never written an article himself — and he has doubtless been one of the most productive editors on these and other subjects — his role in the cleaning-up of existing articles would still have made him one of the most productive editors on the English Wikipedia. Malik Shabazz's proposal, if adopted, will strengthen the project in a very substantial and noticeable way. Nihil novi (talk) 06:36, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Darwinek
As stated above, User:Piotrus was of great help for WikiProject Poland. It would be extremely beneficial for the project if he would be able to perform easy non-controversial tasks for the project. His cleanup abilities are needed. - Darwinek (talk) 19:08, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Skäpperöd
If an editor feels some article needs an additional tag, banner, cat etc pp, WP:SOFIXIT applies.
 * Projects are one way to coordinate maintenance, but most editors maintain wikipedia articles without being enlisted by any project. They do so either regularily, by chance or by bot.
 * WPPoland has 30+ active and 30+ semi-active members, including experienced users like Malik Shabazz, Nihil novi and Darwinek who commented above, but also other people with a high edit count.

Malik Shabazz based this request on his co-project member Jniech's mid-February request. Angus McLellan promptly offered advise on how to properly deal with the issues Jniech was uncertain about, while MS proposed to go to this board, and prepared this request in his user space afterwards. MS's assumtion that "A fairly complete list of his [Piotrus'] former responsibilities can be found here" is false. As any editor, Piotrus does not have any responsibilities here, except for playing by the (few) rules. The list MS linked are not Piotrus' responsibilities, but a list of optional, volunteer maintenance tasks that may be performed by anyone. MS's assumption that "these tasks have not been performed for several months" remains unproven, and it is neither shown that there is anything that really needs to be done and is not done. Skäpperöd (talk) 08:33, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Visor
As it has been said above, Piotrus took significant role to create and improve hundreds of Poland and European related articles. Many of them became articles with the highest Wikipedia standards what can be seen by numerous of DYKs, Featured, A-Class and Good articles. I totally agree with Malik Shabazz and I believe (I know) Piotrus' work on WP:Poland will be beneficial for Wikipedia. Visor (talk) 19:24, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Jniech
WikiProject Poland has a number of members but it is the number willing to do the work that is important. A few of us tried to cover for Piotrus. It is our failure that resulted in this request as without Piotrus help the backlog of outstanding tasks is only going to increase.

Further in my mind adding a template or recommending an article for DYK is not really breaking Piotrus ban on editing article on central and eastern European topics.

Members of Wikipedia can help with many issues but there is the issue of maintaining consistency. Only someone with years of knowledge on Polish related articles can help with this.

It only hurts Wikipedia by not considering this request. Piotrus appears to have broken the rules and some form of punishment was warranted. Stopping Piotrus adding content and discussing articles on central and eastern European issues maybe fair but taking part in “uncontroversial housekeeping tasks” seems unnecessary. In olden days, prisons were for punishment. In these more enlighten days rehabilitation is the goal. Why not consider this? If Piotrus breaks the rules then increase the length of ban but stopping him doing house keeping others can’t be bothered doing seems wrong.

Those who doubt that there is a need only has to monitor the WikiProject Poland page to see increasing numbers of Poland-related articles by quality and importance which are not assessed and that is including those we are failing to tag Jniech (talk) 09:55, 19 April 2010 (UTC).

Statement by M.K.
Given the long history of off-wiki games, disruptive coordination to circumvent Wikipedia policies, tag-teaming, stealth canvassing etc. any attempt to ease any sanctions should begin with a full acknowledgement of guilt by the sanctioned party. And by full acknowledgement I mean not "non-apology apologies" that we did have before, not wikilawering or beating around the bushes, but straightforward admition by the sanctioned party that it understands why it was sanctioned, and admits that its actions such as 'tag team' edit-warring, abuse of dispute resolution processes, proxying for blocked user and encouraging and advising other Wikipedia editors to circumvent Wikipedia policies were disruptive, harmed Wikipedia’s integrity  and will never be repeated again. Without such statement any motion to ease these sanctions should not even be considered.

Finally, none of those “tasks” listed above are vital to the project and easily can be carried out by other members of the project. If Piotrus has too much free time, he can work in dozen other WP projects. Saying that, I perfectly understand that we will see countless other typical “amendments”, “calcifications” and “requests“ in the near future. M.K. (talk) 06:50, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Lysy
I can only confirm that Piotrus housekeeping tasks related Poland-related articles are missed now. Besides, Piotrus used to do an outstanding job indirectly motivating other editors to improve the quality of the project articles, and this is missed too. It seems that the proposed amendment can only do good and I can see no harm in it. --Lysytalk 19:01, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Poeticbent
Time flies. The month of April is already getting close to an end. Piotrus is going to return to full time editing in several months, regardless of any amendments to EEML. I ask. Why not allow him to return to his area of expertise one step at a time, and, take on noncontroversial tasks in the process of recovery. The Project Poland has been virtually dormant since the New Years, with only rudimentary maintenance and peripheral activities taking place. Poland–related DYKs have all but vanished from the front page of Wikipedia since last year. Naturally, Piotrus is not going to make up for all the loses endured by the Project, but his own prior devotion to this portal would be a good place to gradually start rebuilding. -- Poeticbent talk  20:14, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Jan eissfeldt
well, i can`t write a lot about the eeml-stuff because i haven`t followed the progress in detail and i`m sure that the arbcom was as carefully as always. i want to provide an other point: Piotrus is an experienced university outreach user - especially as main contributor of WP:SUP, where he runs his own sociology project every term - and expanded the perspectives of this part of the wikipedia. he is trusted there as well as on the real life aspects of this matter and so i would be pleased if it would be possible to give him the chance to run a SUP-project of his own again, best regards --Jan eissfeldt (talk) 20:24, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Piotrus
I did not want to comment earlier as I wanted to avoid influencing the discussion. I feel that the experienced members of the WikiProject Poland who commented above summed the situation quite clearly and that they are aware of my past and present commitment to the project. To sum it up, shortly, I am fully prepared to resume my uncontroversial wikignoming activities by working within the WikiProject namespace as outlined in the proposed motion. Despite good faithed efforts by some editors, there are many tasks that have not been carried out, with the detrimental effect for the project (and Wikipedia in general - from low recruitment of new members to low levels of copyediting activity). I feel I can resume doing them uncontroversially as I have been doing for the past several years (for that WikiProject, and as I've been doing for others, such as WikiProject Sociology and the Schools and Universities WikiProject).

To Risker: regarding six months, please note note that there have been no issues involving my editing since the case was opened in September last year.

Thank you for your consideration, and I want once again to thank the WikiProject members for their continued faith in me. I will not let you down, --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 04:35, 30 April 2010 (UTC)


 * To Rlevse: please let me know if the following elaboration does not address your question.
 * Shortly: as I noted during the arbitration, I understand that asking for edits on a private foras or responding to such requests should be avoided. As you can see from my edits during the case and this year (that adds up to about half a year of active editing now), I edit in a peaceful manner that isn't raising any issues. I am not sure how I can give you something other than words, since the intended edits have not been done yet, for obvious reasons (and it is a bit hard to demonstrate the lack of controversial edits/issues, see, my proof of that is here: [? lack of complains]). Perhaps the best proof of this is that no editor commenting on this motion so far has been able to present a single problematic post-artbitration start diff. You are welcome to review my recent edits in other en Wiki areas (or projects); I can also list some of the edits I'd like to propose for project member consideration here (but I want to make sure that would be ok with you, I don't want it to be seen as an attempt to evade the restriction). Also, as Malik noted, a list of things that should be done, isn't and that I intend to do is here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:39, 2 May 2010 (UTC)


 * To Carcharoth: there are no (more) floaters on my userpage. The ones on my talk page should allow access to the toolbox - just scroll down a little bit (and let me know if you still cannot access it). Re 1) yes, they were transwikid by User:Graham87 upon my request last week or so (it is my understanding transwiki is the proper way to preserve edit history for copyright and attribution) from my Polish Wikipedia sandbox (the link to which I send to ArbCom months ago, and this is the same place I developed my Lech Wałesa article from the previous passed motion). 2) I was cleaning my sandbox, which involved moving some content to new pages. The content on the page you are referring to is not new but quite old and was moved from here. 3) Yes, but ON POLISH WIKIPEDIA, on the aforementioned page. It was and is my understanding that this is acceptable, see also my following reply. 4) It is my understanding that the original motion included my en Wikipedia userspace, but not any space on projects other than en Wikipedia. I believe that Coren's motion makes it clear that this motions concerns only the WT:POLAND page.
 * Seeing as I am answering all of those questions, I do have a quick question of my own. Am I allowed / will I be after this motion to do the following: 1) invite editors by posting on their user talk pages to join the WP:POLAND project 2) answer editors asking me questions like this one that they should direct their questions to WT:POLAND and 3) (after the motion passes) tell them that I've replied to their question there? (As all of those involve edits in a different namespace than this motions concerns, i.e. user talk namespace) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:47, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Varsovian
I entirely agree with M.K. There are at least a dozen other WP projects which those who were very deservingly banned as a result of the EEML affair can engage themselves. I’d ask why we see this constant stream of ‘can I just do this thing? It’s completely uncontroversial’ requests but we know why: these people are expert at gaming the system. Banned means banned. Varsovian (talk) 08:05, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Can Varsovian provide a single instance where these amendments were used to "game the system"? No? Then don't make empty and false accusations." No I can not. But I can provide examples of using a host of techniques to degrade the project which were used by the members of EEML. Which one would Radek like me to point out first? It would be highly amusing to be lectured by Radek about things which one should not do with WP, if it wasn't so sad that he clearly has learned nothing from the EEML experience. Varsovian (talk) 11:13, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Radeksz
I've tried to avoid controversy and refrain from commenting but sometimes enough is enough. In response to Varsovian and M.K I'd like to point out that

1) Wikipedia is no place for personal vendettas. Actually, that kind of thing reflects badly on a person in general, here or elsewhere.

2) The existence of other projects is irrelevant. Other people involved with WP:Poland made this request - hence they must think Piotrus' work would be very helpful. I'm sure Piotrus could involve himself in WikiProject Small Purple Rodents or whatever but he'd probably be pretty bad at it. He has lots of experience in this area and that is where his help is needed.

3) If other projects need help, then perhaps some users could expand their time and energies there, in a constructive manner, rather than wiki stalking editors and wasting people's time.

4) These previous "can I just do this thing" amendments - I believe this is a reference to my two amendments. I would like to point out that both of these amendments passed off without a hitch, without controversy, without any harm to anyone, without breaking of any rules. At the same time they resulted in the sourcing of 150+ unsourced BLPs, a clear benefit to the encyclopedia. Can Varsovian provide a single instance where these amendments were used to "game the system"? No? Then don't make empty and false accusations. That kind of thing reflects badly on a person, on Wikipedia and in general.

5) To add to 4) above, the only controversy is the empty controversy and battlegrounds that some editors are trying to foster here.

Statement by Russavia
Because of the heinous nature of Piotrus' violations of the spirit of Wikipedia policies and practices, and because of the non-existence of any acknowledgement of wrong-doing, I would prefer to see that he serve at least 6 months of his topic ban before any such requests are considered. And even when they are, they should most certainly not have anything to do with process discussion, or even nominating articles for AfD. There would also need to be a narrow section of articles that he would be allowed to edit for maintenance - e.g. anything relating to Poland and it's interactions with other countries should definitely be off limits for the full twelve months. --Russavia I'm chanting as we speak 11:13, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Further discussion

 * Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Clerk notes

 * This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

 * Awaiting further statements before commenting. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:11, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll repeat the essence of what I had discussed on my own talk page with Piotrus: I am receptive to allowing him to post to some well defined location about articles that currently fall under his topic ban, and see this as an opportunity for him to return gradually to contribution in that area.  The suggestion of using the Wikiproject talk page seems sound to me as well. That said, I admit I'm very hesitant to allow even seemingly uncontroversial edits to the articles themselves at this time.  Too often, "uncontroversial" is anything but and lies in the eyes of the beholder.  Accordingly, I wouldn't support that level of relaxation this soon.  &mdash; Coren (talk) 19:08, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll post a proposed motion in that direction sometime today. &mdash; Coren (talk) 10:44, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Continue to be recused. Shell  babelfish 06:26, 22 April 2010 UTC)
 * Generally agree with Coren here. SirFozzie (talk) 16:39, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree with Coren as well. KnightLago (talk) 19:44, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * For Piotrus: You were banned totally 3 months (ending a month ago) and topic banned 1 year; only 1/3 of that time has passed. I also recalled how hard you lobbied for those things not to happen. Bans aren't ended early because no one has filled on what the banned person used to do. Bans are ended early because the banned person has shown they've truly learned from what got them banned, realizes what caused it in the first place, and has shown they won't repeat those behaviors. All too often some banned person lobbies for an unban, gets it, and goes right back to their old ways. While I appreciate that some things in the Poland topic aren't getting done, I can also appreciate Risker's concerns. I'm read your statement above, but I need to see more, not just words. Can you elaborate?  — Rlevse • Talk  • 12:15, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Piotrus, your user page needs fixing so people can click on your contributions link. I had to access that log a different way because of the floating thing obscuring the sides of the page. Like Risker, I think waiting for the 6-month mark would have been better, but I will support the motion because I see the logic of a gradual return in some areas. Please be crystal-clear as to what you can and can't do, and if you request a further review at the 6-month mark, your activities between now and then will be taken into account. It is entirely possible that some restrictions will remain in place for the whole year of the initial topic ban. Before I support, I have a few questions arising from a brief look-through I did for your contributions over the past 4 months. (1) Can you confirm that the article space edits during the period of the 3-month ban were due to content edited elsewhere and imported here? (examples) - this appears to be some sort of glitch that needs fixing. (2) Could you explain the purpose of this page created on 26 April 2010? I'm not one to get picky about userspace edits, and this is clearly housekeeping, but can you understand that creating a page that looks like draft notes touching on Eastern European topics (it looks like that from what I've read of the page) might be considered borderline activity in the topic area? (3) Would you intend to continue article draft/notes activity in your userspace in the Eastern European or Polish topic area if this motion passes? (4) On the same subject, which other pages, other than the talk page of WikiProject Poland do you see this motion covering (e.g. subpages of the WikiProject?), and do you think the original motion from the case (here) included your userspace? (This is not a trick question, it is genuinely open to interpretation and better settled now rather than later.) Carcharoth (talk) 20:23, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the reply and explanations, Piotrus. The floating stuff on your user talk page (I meant user talk, not user page) does give me a small window to access the sidebar (where your contribs link is), but it is still not ideal. It's not strictly to do with arbitration, but if you could try and see whether that can be fixed it would be good - people shouldn't really have to scroll around and having floating stuff killing other links is not good, though whether it is my set up or the floating thing, I don't know. About this and other stuff to do with the imports, I've reviewed the proxy authorisation and I think it would be best if you asked the three editors listed there to deal with things like this for you, rather than you doing it yourself or making requests yourself (or you could ask for Graham87 to be added to those listed at the motion). It may seem like unneeded layers of communication, but it is important to keep matters like that at arm's length and to work through the three editors named in the motion. On the same topic, moving edit history between namespace and projects is technically correct, but it can cause confusion when people try and work out later what happened (when edits are moved from userspace or other projects to mainspace, it can give the impression that material was present in mainspace on a particular date, when in fact it wasn't - and the transwiki logs don't really seem to be very visible). About the sandbox edits, I see now that it was all housekeeping and moving stuff around - thanks for clearing that up. Carcharoth (talk) 23:53, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * To answer your questions, I would say limited posting in user talk space may be OK, but I had envisaged you being more able to do administrative tasks for WikiProject Poland, rather than extensively discussing things. For example, if a deletion discussion was mentioned, you taking part in a thread at WT:POLAND discussing the article would be similar to taking part in the actual deletion discussion. And if people start !voting in deletion discussions saying "per Piotrus on WT:POLAND" that would be bad. I'm going to have to think about this some more. I'm also not happy with the "raise issues and discuss improvements to articles" bit of the motion - such discussions can take place on wikiproject talk pages if the discussion is general and about a group of article, but specific discussions about improving an article should really take place on the article talk page (so others can see it in future). It might be simpler to amend the topic ban to allow editing in all namespaces except article space, and possibly to include a prohibition from participation at AfD, and to trust you to avoid contentious discussions. Either that, or to strictly limit it to the WikiProject pages only (though this doesn't avoid the problem that sometimes discussions take place on WikiProject pages that should really be located somewhere else). I'll wait for more input before voting. Carcharoth (talk) 23:53, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Carc, the reason this was proposed for WT:POLAND as opposed to the talk page is twofold: (a) it makes it centralized, and therefore easily monitorable, and (b) raising issues about an article needing attention on its talkpage is rather futile since it would not be seen by new editors.  &mdash; Coren (talk) 11:13, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Sure, but do you see Piotrus's role following this loosening of the topic ban as simply flagging up issues and then sitting back and letting others deal with them, or do you see his role as including "discuss improvements", which is technically what would happen on the talk page once people had been alerted at the WikiProject? In practice, such discussions tend to overlap between WikiProject talk pages and article talk pages. There may, for instance, be editors who would prefer to post at the article talk page rather than participate in a discussion at WT:POLAND. We shouldn't encourage long discussions about improvements to specific articles when there are other venues better suited to that (article talk pages and deletion discussions, to name just two). I have no objection to WT:POLAND being used to flag up articles that need attention, or for general discussions there about groups of articles within that WikiProject's scope, and I have no objection to Piotrus carrying out administrative tasks on all and any WP:POLAND pages and subpages (including initial postings pointing out problems for others to fix), but I'm wary of discussions getting out of hand and also wary of allowing user talk page postings as if would be better for Piotrus to get others involved in that side of things (delivery notices and welcome notices and invitations to join, etc). For now, I will support, and trust Piotrus to back off in certain areas if things appear to be getting out of hand. We do also need to answer his questions about other namespaces, and be more explicit about other pages and subpages of WP:POLAND. Carcharoth (talk) 07:09, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * To answer one of Piotrus's specific questions: my view is that if someone posts to your user talk about something in this topic area, you should avoid initiating a discussion there, and instead direct them to the talk page of WikiProject Poland where you should raise the issue for them if necessary and answer briefly if you have an answer for them. Again, this will encourage others to get involved, so the WikiProject is less reliant on you and others can step in to help out. Carcharoth (talk) 07:22, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Motion
The current editing restriction affecting is to be amended to allow Piotrus to raise issues and discuss improvements to articles otherwise under the ban on the WikiProject Poland talk page.

There being 16 arbitrators, 6 of whom are inactive, one recused, the majority is 5.

Enacted ~ Amory  (u • t • c) 00:35, 6 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Support
 * As a first step towards gradual return to editing. &mdash; Coren (talk) 18:40, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Given Piotrus' second stmt and the large swell of community support he has, I'm going along with Coren here and am willing to see how this first step goes. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 18:28, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:15, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Provisional support, pending discussions above regarding other namespaces and other pages and subpages of WikiProject Poland, and urging Piotrus to be wary of engaging in long discussions on the WikiProject talk page that should properly take place elsewhere. If the discussion venue moves, he will have to show restraint and allow the discussions to continue on other pages without him, rather than allowing parallel discussions to develop. Carcharoth (talk) 07:12, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Willing to give it a shot. KnightLago (talk) 15:11, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Willing to give this a shot and see how it goes forward. SirFozzie (talk) 15:24, 4 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * I'd like to see at least six months pass before moving toward the gradual return to editing (mid-June at earliest), and I note that Piotrus has not commented or made this request, despite being notified of this request for amendment. I am not comfortable approving this change without hearing from him, or his plans for editing and contributing in this area. Risker (talk) 20:08, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Noting that I have read Piotrus' comments above. My general rule of thumb is that half the sanction period should be served before major changes; that would occur in June. I'm not seeing any reason that would compel me to believe that Piotrus is the only person who is capable to carry out the processes that are the basis of this request; they are tasks that any editor could carry out if s/he felt it was worthwhile. Without a compelling reason to make an exception in this case, I continue to oppose. Nonetheless, as this motion is passing, I will take this opportunity to note that this is a very limiting restriction and that Piotrus may make comments only on the Wikiproject page; it does not lift sanctions in other areas where he has professed an interest. Risker (talk) 15:41, 4 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Recuse
 * Kirill [talk] [prof] 01:56, 30 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Abstain
 * Moved to abstain. I completely missed that Piotrus hasn't commented here. What's up with that? KnightLago (talk) 20:19, 29 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment
 * See my stmt in the arb section. Holding for now. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 12:17, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Supporting now.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 18:28, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Request to amend prior case: Eastern European mailing list
Initiated by  radek (talk) at 18:04, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Case affected :


 * Clauses to which an amendment is requested
 * 1) Remedy 10


 * List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
 * (initiator)

N/A
 * Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

Amendment 1

 * topic ban
 * This is a request to amend the EEML case in order to allow me (USer Radeksz) to edit articles in the Eastern European area again. As such it is an appeal of the topic ban that was implemented in December as part of the case.

Statement by Radeksz
In the winddown of the case, several of the arbitrators, past and present, indicated that they would be amenable to an appeal and lifting of the topic ban after suitable time has passed. It's been almost 6 months since the case. Furthermore, appeals such as this one are often made and granted in similar cases.

Activity since the case

Since the conclusion of the case I have been active in other areas of Wikipedia, such as Mexican History and Economics, and I have tried to take scrupulous care to abide by my topic ban. I have avoided any controversy in the area of Eastern European topics, or any other topics for that matter. Also, through the two amendments that were passed which already narrowed my topic ban, here and here, I was able to source over 150, unreferenced Poland related BLP articles that might have been deleted otherwise. The lifting of the topic ban would allow me to improve the remaining Poland related BLPs (over 170 still left, as can be seen here) many of which are in need of expansion, tagging, and updating (many of them are several years out of date) in addition to sourcing.

Since this is likely to be brought up by someone else, I want to indicate that in one instance I did in fact apparantly violate my topic ban, by posting a comment at the AfD for the Ryszard Tylman article (I did not however vote in the AfD). Since the subject of the article is a Canadian I wasn't aware that the article fell within the scope of the topic ban and I removed my comment as soon as the matter was brought to AE.

Here's a list of some of the other things I've accomplished since December;


 * I created three articles which were reviewed and attained Good Article status: Treaty of Ciudad Juarez (now nominated for FA ), Battle of Ciudad Juarez and Confederate war finance. I plan on continuing to work on these to bring them up to Featured Article Status. I also have another article currently going through the GA review process, which just made GA status, the Brander-Spencer model.


 * I created about 23 DYK articles since December, mostly in the areas of Mexican History and Economics. A full list is here.


 * I've been active in tagging and assesing articles within WikiProject Economics as well as helping out in more minor roles on bringing the article on Price elasticity of demand to GA.


 * I've helped bring the article Nobel Prize to GA status (I was very careful to avoid sections which deal with Eastern European recipients of the prize so as not to violate the topic ban).


 * I've also *almost* hit 15,000 edits!

In carrying out this work, several times the topic ban limited my ability to fully improve/create some of these articles. For example, in my article on the Preston curve - a relationship between income and life expectancy - I avoided discussing the large drop in life expectancy in Eastern Europe in the early 1990's so as not to violate the topic ban - this was actually picked up on by an anon reader on the talk page of the article but I was unable to respond. In my other work on Economics related topics, I also was unable to assess and improve articles which tangentially might have to do with Eastern Europe and Poland - for example article on the famous Polish economist Michał Kalecki.

Plans for the future

If this amendment is succseful, I plan on creating and working on the following articles which are concerned with Economic History and Eastern Europe. I don't anticipate that any of them should prove controversial - of course, if any disputes arise in the future, I will be careful to observe high standards of conduct:


 * Domar serfdom model (did factor endowments (land-labor ratio) determine whether a pre-industrial economy ended up with slavery, serfdom or free labor?)
 * Brenner debate (related to the above, what ended feudalism in Western Europe but caused its re-emergence in Eastern Europe?)
 * Second feudalism (re both above)
 * Economic history of Poland (started, on hold since topic ban went into effect)
 * Piast monetary policy (of the Polish Piast dynasty; sometimes good, sometimes bad, just like Ben Bernanke today)

(among others)

I would also like to help out with the gnomish tasks over at WikiProject Poland to lighten the load on some of the editors who have picked up the burden. Furthermore I would very much like to resume my participation in the Jewish Labour Bund Task Force project, which has become somewhat dormant since January - I believe I can revive it with new articles and activity.

Furthermore, as mentioned above, I plan on contiuning with the sourcing and improvement of Poland related BLPs. I would also like to expand/create several articles on some of the casualties of the 2010 Polish Air Force Tu-154 crash, since they are quite notable but lack adequate coverage on Wikipedia. In general, articles on "current events" in Poland, such as the May 2010 Central European floods, are always in need of knowledgeable editors and I can help a lot of with those.

Lifting of the topic ban will enable me to improve these and other articles, and it shouldn't be controversial. In addition I plan on continuing work on articles not related to Eastern Europe.

General statement

I would like to point out that both amendments which narrowed my topic ban went off without a hitch or controversy. I think this will continue if the topic ban is amended.

I left the mailing list which was the subject of the case in November 2009. I have not participated in any activities that were deemed objectionable by the 2009 ArbCom which led to the topic ban, since then.

Looking back on the case after 6 months I have to say that I have learned a lot since then. Basically, I still believe that the people who were on the mailing list, joined it with the best of intentions for Wikipedia and its policies. I do realize now however that at some point things were over the line and that, often out of frustration, members of the list, myself included, engaged in questionable activities for which I personally want to apologize.

I encourage everyone, former members of the list, as well as their "opponents" to undertake efforts which will reduce the battleground atmosphere in this topic area and lead to more collaborative editing. Somebody's got to make a show of good faith however, and I would like to say that I personally harbor no grudges against any other editor currently active on Wikipedia and am willing to work with anybody. I'm going to reset my "assume good faith" meter back to good faith and I hope others do likewise.


 * re to Skapperod
 * 1. I did leave the list in Nov 2009. The precise date was the 21st of November, 2009. The oversighted edit in fact showed this exactly as it included the heading for my unsubscribe request. Since you went over that oversighted data with a fine comb, I am sure you are aware of this, so why are you misrepresenting the facts and in the process calling me a liar?


 * 2. I have no idea what the relevance of the Wikipedia Review "diff" is to this appeal or what it has to do with me. Somebody there said the admin Adjust Shift was a sock puppet. So? What does that have to do with any of this? With my topic ban? With Eastern Europe? Nothing. What exactly are you alleging is the problem here? You are connecting completely unrelated and innocuous events in a questionable effort to merely sling mud and hope that somehow it sticks.


 * 3. At the Tylman-related AE, administrators Future Perfect, Sandstein and Tznkai (maybe Stifle too, I can't remember) all stated that they believed I was not aware the AfD fell under the topic ban, although I should've been more careful. An assessment with which I agree and share.


 * 4. I did not violate the topic ban when I commented on Molobo's request. I was clarifying a misunderstanding with regard to blocking policy and WP:OFFER on the part of another editor. Hey, Rlevse was right there and I responded directly to him as well - surely he would've noticed if this had been a topic ban breach. And I'm sure you, or someone else would've made a AE report out of it if you had had ANY confidence that it was indeed a topic ban violation. You didn't. It wasn't. You knew it then, you know it now.
 * Add: I've copied the relevant discussion that is supposed to be a "topic ban violation", into a subpage so that it can be easily examined here. Please look at it and compare it to the false claim being made. Note also the "You are quite right, Radeksz." and the "Thanks for pointing out my mistake!" comments made by PhantomSteve, an uninvolved editor, which shows pretty clearly that (aside from the fact that this had nothing to do with the topic ban) I was not being confrontational or controversial in this case at all. This is really really fishing for a crappy reason to hang an "oppose" on.


 * I will reiterate my sincere hope that the editors active in this area abandon their battleground mentality and try to work constructively together.

re to Skapperod's further thoughts: Skapperod, you are again bringing stuff up from December - when the case wasn't concluded or any sanctions made. You are again bringing up stuff that's not from Wikipedia at all but from an external public website (which is read and occasionally commented on by some of the arbitrators - so they could've already read what I had to say there). And you are again completely misrepresenting what I said or did.radek (talk) 02:33, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Skäpperöd
I am not convinced, considering: I appreciate the above apology, but not its timing. I would have more trust in the apology if it was not made in the context of wanting the sanction lifted. Skäpperöd (talk) 23:05, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * the severity of the offense that led to the sanction.
 * the untrue statement of Radeksz above that he left the list in Nov 2009: evidently, he was enlisted and active in Dec 2009 which he revealed himself while proxying.
 * more off-wiki contact to listmembers while topic-banned targeting perceived opponents: Radeksz asked for this diff to discredit a former EEML-target on 5 Jan 2:16am at WR, received it on 5 Jan 2:31am at WR, and on 5 Jan 9:15am, the diff appeared on-wiki at co-EEML-member Molobo's talk page.
 * The abovementioned diff was removed by Molobo (27 Jan) when he prepared an unblock request (29 Jan). The request made it to AN/I, where Radeksz commented on 23 February, violating his widely-construed topic ban from EE-related process discussion.
 * Radeksz also commented on the AfD concerning the article of co-EEML-member Tylman on 30 April, violating his widely-construed topic ban from EE-related process discussion. Given the close ties between Tylman and Radeksz, the latter's argument that Tylman's Canadian citizenship made him think the AfD was excepted from the ban is not convincing - Tylman's connection to Poland is simply too obvious, and evidently Radeksz was aware of that since Poland-related topics, not Canada, was the common interest they shared and focussed on in the EEML, and Tylman's Polish background was emphasized in the article the AfD was about.
 * on 21 Jan, Radeksz removed his outburst with the edit summary "i miss the old times" to avoid the pending sanction.


 * Re @Radeksz
 * Re delisted: The diff shows that you continued the EEML and just changed the channel. It does not matter whether you use Digwuren's wpm or send circulars via other servers, what matters is that you maintain that virtual war room per se and the high traffic generated there, before and after November, resulting in coordinated actions on-wiki as demonstrated by the very action you performed resulting in that infamous proxy- and leak diff.
 * Re WR: In this context, it adds to my concern that a wiki-diff you gather at WR needs only a few hours to be posted by Molobo on-wiki. How could that happen without invoking off-wiki coordination?! And, since that diff consisted of mud to be slung at a former target, and since all of this happened while you were topic banned and Molobo was blocked, it has everything to do with a mentality the EEML sanctions, including this appealed one, were to remedy.
 * Concerning the topic ban violations, at least in the case of 30 April to 1 May it was obvious enough to result in a block. When Russavia left the obligatory AE notification on your talk, you did not accept that either and attacked him as a stalker.
 * Skäpperöd (talk) 13:01, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Re Igny and more thoughts/diffs

Of course battleground mentality is not shown openly on en.wiki while he wants to have his sanction lifted, in contrast to WR where Radek is more blunt, e.g. The oversighted diff that brought about Offliner's sanction and the abovementioned pair of WR/wiki diffs show continued off-wiki coordination resulting in on-wiki edits. Radeksz also The last appeal Radeksz filed, against a previous sanction, was prepared on the EEML (see archive), where Radeksz also announced to keep "low-profile" until the appeal was through.
 * Arbcom are "not just plain ol' assholses, like the ED folks, but they're creeps, self-righteous creeps";
 * also blame shifting on Lithuanian and Russian users).
 * advocated unblocking of his co-listmember Molobo in the course of DonaldDuck's unblock request and on AN/I ,
 * advocated in his co-listmember Tylman's AfD, attacking Varsovian as a "dick" in the same post,
 * attacked Matthead as an asshole ,
 * attacked Dr.Dan as a troll (following this one ),
 * and attacked Russavia as a "stalker" violating the interaction ban.

Lifting already lenient sanctions is not really solving the problem of malicious mailing lists - the next one just got busted (Азербайджанский список рассылки). Skäpperöd (talk) 22:53, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Igny
Radek and I were opponents in several content disputes in EE area. However, I was against blunt topic bans during the EEML case and I fully support Radek's request to lift the ban on EE topics. After all, that area is where Radek is very knowledgeable and where his contributions would benefit the project a lot. I have looked over recent history of contributions by Radek and did not notice any of the "battleground mentality" (4 words to Skapperod: eye of the beholder). I would hope that everyone learned their lessons from the EEML case, and it certainly seems that way for Radek. (Igny (talk) 03:23, 5 June 2010 (UTC))

Statement by Paul Siebert
I think, the only EEML's sine was that they were creating a visibility of a consensus between allegedly independent editors whereas in actuality there was a strong coordination between them. In other words, they were creating a false impression that several independent editors were acting, although in actuality it was just one collective editor. The EEML group's punishment was correct, however, that does not mean that the ideas they were promoting should be banned. Since EEML members' actions de facto converted them into one collective editor, they should be treated as such, and that would be a solution, at least temporary, of the issue. In other words, the issue can be resolved if only one EEML member will be allowed to edit EE related articles. For example, if Radek wants to edit the invasion of Poland article, he is free to do that, however, by doing that he made the article banned for other EEML members. Of course, other members can discuss his edits with him, however, they will not be able to participate in the talk page discussions, in RfC's etc. I propose to lift a topic ban for Radek and for all other EEML members provided that two or more EEML members are not allowed to edit one article simultaneously (or to simultaneously participate in talk page discussions). --Paul Siebert (talk) 15:16, 6 June 2010 (UTC) PS. It is necessary to note that I also was an opponent of many EEML members.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:18, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Novickas
I see phrases used by R. above as not in keeping with a pledge to maintain high standards of conduct and minimize confrontation: 'misrepresenting the facts and in the process calling me a liar?', 'merely sling mud and hope that somehow it sticks', 'really really fishing for a crappy reason to hang an "oppose" on'. Addressing Russavia as 'my dear stalker' on April 30th doesn't inspire confidence either. He could of course refactor or otherwise address those. But to me, using that language here says he hasn't internalized a less confrontational approach to WP disputes. It can be done - there are editors here working in really troublesome topics who contribute to resolution - in part by speaking calmly and neutrally. But I don't see R. as doing that at this point.

I like Paul Siebert's suggestion - altho it seems rather novel for WP. It wouldn't solve the problem posed by R.'s language, which has a conflict-escalating aspect, but it would act to reduce the teaming concerns. Like Paul, I note that I also was an opponent of many EEML members. Novickas (talk) 17:41, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

OK, I appreciate the support rationales. But I still worry that if R. returns to this area, and problems come up (they will), and other editors voice concerns, what if R again responds with 'my dear stalker'. You-all may, of course, feel that our skins should be thick enough to withstand those kinds of comments. I'd prefer to see first see some sort of commitment on R's part to moderate their language. Novickas (talk) 22:45, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Those arbs supporting this motion - you are in effect saying it's OK that he used the words dick, troll, stalker, asshole, and quasi-Nazi after his topic ban. On the grounds that he made other valuable contributions. Now I don't think either Skap or I are asking for a groveling apology. There is a middle ground. That would be publicly acknowledging Skap's and my concerns in a respectful way. It's been done.

It would be nice if Coren clarified and expanded on 'any relapse is likely to be poorly received'. Do you, Coren, feel those weren't relapses; or that they were but they should be forgiven since enough time has passed since then; or that no evidence shows the kind of collusion he was topic banned for; or...? Novickas (talk) 18:00, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by dr.Loosmark
I cannot agree with the comments of the "opponent of many EEML members" Novickas and Skapparod too who seems to be blowing out of proportions old things, Skapparod's diffs seems to be from January!? To be totally honest I think it would be better if more really neutral editors would give input but ok that's not for me to say. Anyway I have carefully examined Radeksz's contributions to wikipedia since January and I don't see any problematic edits. Quite the contrary, I see he has really worked hard and made a huge number of quality contributions and there weren't any problems that I am aware of. Dr. Loosmark 18:34, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by other editor
{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Clerk notes

 * This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

 * Recused from the EEML case. Shell  babelfish 18:19, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
 * My first instinct is that we should lift the topic ban, but I wonder whether something more nuanced and narrow can be written in its place. As Paul Siebert says, the problem was not lone editing, but banding together with other EEML members. Perhaps lift the ban, but impose a restriction on interacting with other former EEML members in EE topics. Cool Hand Luke 17:24, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
 * This particular self-rightous creep is open to revisiting this sanction. One possibility is lifting the sanction for a trial period (say, a month) and seeing how things go. Another is to refer to the proposed narrower wording for all the topic-bans that I suggested on the proposed decision page at the time. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:36, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Motion
Remedy 10 of Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list ("Radeksz topic banned") is rescinded.

(There being 14 arbitrators, five of whom are either inactive or recused, the majority is 5) ~ <font color="#F09">Amory <font color="#555"> (u • t • c) 04:41, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Enacted ~ <font color="#F09">Amory <font color="#555"> (u • t • c) 20:50, 21 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Steve Smith (talk) 04:49, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I've been asked to explain my rationale, which is fair enough. The short version is that I think many of the EEML problems grew out of a bit of a mob mentality, and my experience with mobs is that once you get their members to engage as individuals, they're okay.  Radek's plainly thinking for himself, has been well behaved during his sanction (including while editing on Poland-related stuff in response to the prior amendments to this case), and obviously has a lot to offer on Poland-related stuff, primarily on non-contentious Poland-related stuff.  I'm not proposing this motion because I believe that the original sanction was wrong, but because I don't think it's serving much purpose at this point. Steve Smith (talk) 22:15, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) I prefer this to the status quo. Cool Hand Luke 17:25, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
 * 2) I see good work being done since the time of the closing of the EEML case, and I believe a suitable period of time has passed.  Risker (talk) 19:13, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
 * 3) With the understanding that any relapse is likely to be poorly received.  &mdash; Coren (talk) 20:46, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
 * 4) Willing to try this (although it might be more clear if the motion said "terminated" rather than "rescinded"); see also my comments on the proposed decision page of the original case. Newyorkbrad (talk) 06:20, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * 5) While I appreciate Skap's concerns and am almost swayed by them, I am going to support this per Risker and Steve. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 12:19, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
 * 6) Concur with Steve Smith. - Mailer Diablo 14:52, 21 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Neutral


 * Recused
 * 1) Kirill [talk] [prof] 21:05, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Request to amend prior case: Eastern European mailing list
Initiated by Biruitorul Talk at''' 19:53, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Case affected :


 * Clauses to which an amendment is requested
 * 1) Remedy 19


 * List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
 * (initiator)


 * Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request
 * N/A

Amendment 1

 * topic ban
 * This is a request to amend the EEML case in order to allow me (User Biruitorul) to edit and create articles in Category:Geography of Romania and Category:Geography of Moldova again. As such it is a partial appeal of the topic ban that was implemented in December as part of the case.

Statement by Biruitorul
Well, I've been stewing in my own juices now for six months since the EEML decision was handed down, and I feel it's time to open the windows a crack and let me resume some of my more worthwhile activities. No off-wiki coordination, no canvassing, no usage of hidden communication to create the appearance of a consensus: I get it now, believe me. Half a year of scrupulously having to avoid my favorite subject area has drummed these lessons into me. Truth be told, I haven't been too active here since December, but neither have I done any harm. The only possible blemish on my record is a non-event that led to a pretty disgusting decision. (Let's be serious here, you don't extend a valuable contributor's topic ban by five months because he's made a few harmless edits he thought he was free to make.)

What I'm proposing here is to be allowed to dip my toe in again, editing in the areas of Romanian and Moldovan geography, neither of which has been the subject of much controversy in the past, certainly not involving me. There is quite a bit I plan to do: to give one example, I plan to finish creating articles on the communes of Moldova, which I had nearly finished doing before being rudely interrupted by this overly broad topic ban. Let's see how this goes. If for some reason I can't handle it, throw the book at me. If, as I suspect, everything will run smoothly, then in a little while I'll have reason to appeal more of, or the entirety of, the topic ban. - Biruitorul Talk 19:53, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Lysy
Yes, absolutely. Both proposed categories are lacking a lot, so having an active editor there could only be of benefit. Besides, it would allow Biruitorul to prove that he/she can edit in a harmonious and proper way in his/her area of interest. Eastern European topics lack good, mature editors. --Lysytalk 13:58, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by other editor
{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Further discussion

 * Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Clerk notes

 * This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Motion
Remedy 17 of Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list ("Biruitorul topic banned") is lifted.

Enacted ~ <font color="#F09">Amory <font color="#555"> (u • t • c) 19:44, 2 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Of the sanctioned parties, Biruitorul's misbehaviour was among the mildest.  He/she has acknowledged the misbehaviour, and has had not conduct issues of which I am aware since the case. Steve Smith (talk) 14:07, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
 * 2) With appropriate cautions. SirFozzie (talk) 19:15, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
 * 3) Six months sounds like enough to me. Cool Hand Luke 21:18, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
 * 4) Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:41, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
 * 5) Risker (talk) 01:41, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
 * 6) Per Steve.  &mdash; Coren (talk) 14:23, 27 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Abstain


 * Recuse
 * 1) Kirill [talk] [prof] 12:53, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
 * 2)   Roger Davies  talk 15:24, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

This motion passes and will be archived in 48 hours. Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 15:15, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Request to amend prior case: Eastern European Mailing List (3)
Permanent link Initiated by Miacek 10:29, 28 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Case affected :


 * Clauses to which an amendment is requested


 * 1) Remedy 20


 * 
 * This is a request to amend EEML Remedy 20 to end the topic ban that applies to Miacek and allow him to edit articles related to Eastern Europe.


 * (initiator)


 * Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request


 * N/A

Statement of Miacek
As a result of this Arbitration case, I was topicbanned from articles on Eastern Europe. I would like to emphasise, that the overwhelming majority of my contributions has been to the Eastern European topics, in which I have hopefully have some expertise, or just interest.

As I tried to explain during the arbitration case, my active participation in the list was occasional, and I did not ask anyone to edit-war in tandem or to support my POV. It would have been difficult, too, because I happened to disagree with some users on issues of deletion etc. What I was found guilty of and what I cannot deny either was the e-mail I sent to the list, regarding the proposed deletion of an article I created (Derzhava). I will not canvass anyone in the future, nor will I join a list similar to the EEML (that I actually left a few months before it was discovered).

There is another thing that I was listed as guilty of, hence I will briefly have to comment on it. I found it regrettable that this was included as evidence, because I strongly disapprove of sock puppetry, account sharing games etc. This comment was meant as an ironic note, because one of the list members had engaged in exactly this kind of misbehaviour. There was no serious offer: I would hardly want to share an account with Molobo, who has very different interests and POV compared with mine. I also had more or less normal relations with User:Russavia, with whom I sometimes disagreed but never considered him a menace, as some users (who were not topicbanned in December) actually seemed to do.

Because of the ban I have had to transfer my activities to Wikipedia editions in other languages, mostly German Wikipedia, with occasional edits to the Russian and Estonian Wikipedias. However, I find all those ('national') encyclopedias rather parochial and hence prefer the English Wikipedia with its more universal approach. During the last 6 months, I have made just over 300 edits here, most of those simple reverts of vandalism (my overall edit count should be around 6300 on en.wiki). Hence, I believe that lifting my ban would be beneficial for the Wikipedia, as I could start contributing to the Eastern Europe topics again. I have not been found guilty of repeated edit warring or POV pushing and will not engage in such behaviour in the future. I have tried to maintain a neutral, not nationally motivated stance on Eastern Europe topics, where pro-Soviet/anti-Soviet, pro-/anti-Russia POVs tend to occur and will do so in the future. I also promise to follow the remedies of the EEML case.

Some plans for the future


 * start/translate Zjednoczenie Patriotyczne "Grunwald"
 * Kharakhoba (a Russian exclave wihtin Azeri territory)
 * Rady Fisch, a Soviet orientalist
 * Union of Russian Patriots
 * Mi(k)hail Guboglo, a linguist of Gagauz origin.
 * post a proposal how we might stop persistent small-scale edit warring at Meša Selimović and find a compromise

Statement by other editors
{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}
 * Assuming the facts stated are correct, I support this amendment - this editor has clearly been more than sufficiently "punished" for very minor wrongdoings, and restricting productive editors is actually punishing not just them, but Wikipedia as well.--Kotniski (talk) 09:51, 30 June 2010 (UTC)


 * It does seem that the sarcasm/irony of that "sockpuppetry" comment in the EEML evidence was lost on some in the heat of the EEML case (and, I'm ashamed to say, I have to include myself in this statement), and in consequence Miacek got a harsher treatment than his actual on-wiki record would have warranted. Bring the crime-fighing dog back! Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:42, 4 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Although I am under a ban from commenting on EEML members, I don't really care, I am going to comment here. I support Miacek coming back to editing on WP. When the EEML case first broke, I was disappointed, and somewhat disgusted, that Miacek was part of that group, considering the amount of harrassment I was put under by the group. And I told him so. I have had a good editing relationship with Miacek; I believe that we are both here for the betterment of the project, rather than the propaganda pushing that the EEML partook in, and I am extending an offer to Miacek for him to contact me and we can collaborate on articles of mutual interest for the betterment of the project. As was mentioned on his talk page in December here and as he replied on mine at User_talk:Russavia/Archive_15. So yes, please let Miacek back to normal editing. But Miacek can you please confirm whether you are still a member of the list, because as you know the EEML continued to operate even during the arbitration case, and it is partly my concern that the same underhanded tactics will continue in future, and I hope that we can foster a spirit of conciliation and moving forward, for I believe that the two of us can do this - you were never part of the harrassment against myself and for that I do sincerely thank you. --Russavia I'm chanting as we speak 01:25, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Amendment I noticed Miacek's statement that he left EEML before it was publicly named and shamed, and based upon that, I can only wholeheartedly support Miacek's return. Miacek, you say you would never join another list. Here's an idea. Perhaps a list could be created in which editors who are interested in Russia topics (which the EEML was inherently set up to propagandise against - for want of better words) could discuss issues relating to these topics...and it wouldn't be a super duper secret list - membership would be open to all WP members in good standing. Do you think this could go some way to fostering collaborative spirit amongst editors? Might be worth a try, what do you think? Leave message on my talk page or via email if interested in answering that. Cheers, --Russavia I'm chanting as we speak 01:35, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Further discussion

 * Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Clerk notes

 * This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

 * Allowing a couple of days in case any other editors want to comment, but in the absence of any significant problems in the past few months not discussed above, I am inclined to grant this request. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:39, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * As things stand, I'd be willing to support. I'll wait for more comments. SirFozzie (talk) 07:32, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Recused on EEML.  Roger Davies  talk 12:42, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Willing to support, per Newyorkbrad. Risker (talk) 08:13, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Willing to support, but concerned (per Biophys - comment later removed) at the slew of EEML-related appeals. Sometimes it really is better to wait. Carcharoth (talk) 12:59, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Recused on EEML. Shell  babelfish 19:52, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Motion
Remedy 20 of Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list ("Miacek topic banned") is lifted.

There being 10 active Arbitrators, not counting two who are recused, the majority is 6. ~ <font color="#F09">Amory <font color="#555"> (u • t • c) 21:38, 9 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Support
 * 1) Per most of my colleagues and several of the comments above, in particular FPaS's.  This is a remedy that passed 4-2 (!) in a heated atmosphere.  I'm not convinced that this particular remedy was justified in the first place, and even if it was I think it's now served its purpose. Steve Smith (talk) 15:47, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
 * 2) Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:09, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * 3) SirFozzie (talk) 01:35, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * 4) Carcharoth (talk) 04:51, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * 5) <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> •  Talk  • 02:08, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * 6) Kirill [talk] [prof] 03:10, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * 7) Risker (talk) 02:08, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
 * 8) Without prejudice about the remedy's propriety at the time.  &mdash; Coren (talk) 13:42, 19 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Recuse

Request to amend prior case: Eastern European mailing list (2)
Permanent link Initiated by  — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk at 03:04, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Case affected :


 * Clauses to which an amendment is requested
 * 1) Remedy 3


 * List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
 * (initiator)


 * Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request
 * Piotrus

Amendment 1

 * 
 * This is a request to amend EEML Remedy 3 to end the topic ban that applies to Piotrus and allow him to edit articles related to Eastern Europe.

Statement by Malik Shabazz
It has been more than six months since Piotrus was blocked and topic-banned. Since his return, he has been productive in other areas of Wikipedia. He has carefully observed the terms of his topic ban and avoided areas related to Eastern Europe.

Piotrus and I have a history. We got off on the wrong foot and found ourselves on opposite sides of edit wars that shouldn't have taken place. Since that time, he and I have mended fences. We've come to respect one another and I consider him one of my "Wikifriends". I was proud to have his support at my RfA.

Before his topic ban, Piotrus was very productive in articles having to do with Poland. He is responsible for 15 featured articles and 15 good articles (including 3 A-class articles) on Poland-related subjects.

In addition to his article-writing, Piotrus was the main force behind WP:POLAND. For a list of the tasks he performed, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Poland/Archive 3. He carried out these duties without asking for any special recognition; his only "reward" was the satisfaction of improving the encyclopedia.

Pursuant to the motion enacted May 5, Piotrus was allowed to "raise issues and discuss improvements to articles otherwise under the ban" at WT:POLAND. I have found his assistance at that page to be invaluable. (Please see WT:POLAND for examples of what's been involved.) I and a few others have tried to keep up with Piotrus' suggestions, but this represents but a fraction of what should be done for the WikiProject; it is also a very inefficient way of getting things done.

As one example of his noncontroversial editing this year, Piotrus has used his class at the University of Pittsburgh to improve the encyclopedia and try to bring several articles to GA status. (Please see Wikipedia:School and university projects/User:Piotrus/Summer 2010 for details.) He has also become involved to a greater extent with WP:SOCIOLOGY. Since coming back to Wikipedia, he has had two (non-EE) articles promoted to GA and written 15 DYKs.

I believe Piotrus has learned from his mistakes in the EEML case and should be allowed once again to edit in the subject area of Eastern Europe.

Statement by Skäpperöd
Constructive edits to sociology topics, where Piotrus has some expertise, must not be used as a basis for granting Piotrus access to EE topics again, where he used the same expertise in a malicious way for years: There are few editors with a similar record of disruption, which has already caused a huge level of stress and waste of time (add up the kB of the above linked cases for a start). What makes Piotrus' case quite extraordinary is his long-term successful deception, including impertinences such as:
 * the 2006 RfC on Piotrus already contained evidence for canvassing and agitation in favour of his group and against his group's targets.
 * the 2007 Piotrus Arbcom has acknowledged the battlefield but tried an amnesty solution. This approach has failed and was replaced by the discretionary sanctions of the subsequent Digwuren Arbcom.
 * the 2008 Piotrus2 Arbcom (later renamed EED) acknowledged that off-wiki coordination by Piotrus' group is "almost certain", but refrained from passing a respective remedy because it lacked "definitive proof"
 * the 2009 EEML Arbcom was equipped with that definitive proof, identified Piotrus as a "ringleader" guilty of cover-up actions, abuse of administrator tools, a "variety of disruptive activities coordinated on the mailing list, including 'tag team' edit-warring (...), abuse of dispute resolution processes (...), proxying for a blocked user (...) and encouraging and advising list members to circumvent Wikipedia policies", and canvassing
 * in Nov 2009, a month before the case's closure, Piotrus participated in the Tylman votestacking
 * in Dec 2009 Piotrus was identified by Radeksz as still coordinating off-wiki (the months thereafter, he served his block)
 * Piotrus' proposed FoF in the Piotrus2 Arbcom, reading "There is no group (WP:CABAL, WP:TAGTEAM) of Polish editor acting together violating policies and damaging this project. Piotrus is not a leader of such a (nonexistent) group."
 * Piotrus' reply to Irpen's offer for a fresh start: "I have not done the things...", "I can promise you I will not 'call in reverts' to create battlegrounds, I will not stack votes with otherwise uninterested meatpuppets, I will not seek to block content opponents..."

The "prolific Piotrus" and the "malicious Piotrus" are one and the same person, and the latter had long enough been free to deceive the project, including Arbcom, hiding behind the first. Skäpperöd (talk) 09:37, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Piotrus
I have asked Malik to post this request on my behalf, as a representative of WikiProject Poland and an editor familiar with my editing history (both past and present). I believe that Wikipedia is a project build on trust and cooperation among the users, and thus I am heartened that he has agreed to do this; his (and WP:POLAND's) support means a lot to me.

I have learned over the years that no matter how good one's intentions, it is all too easy to fall down a slippery slope. Having seen what happens when one descends this route, I plan on ensuring that errors of the past will not repeat themselves in the future.

It has been about a year since any complaint about my editing was raised (in the arbitration case I am asking to be amended). I have contributed, uncontroversially, to EE-related subjects for years before (including in the 4-month period that the case was ongoing). I have, over the years, till late December, contributed over ~20 FAs, ~20 GAs and ~300 DYKs, roughly ~90% of them in the Eastern European subjects). Even after the case ended, I was able to help out with addressing the BLP issues and then GAing Lech Wałęsa article. Throughout that time, I contributed uncontroversially to Polish Wikipedia, Polish and English Wikisource, and the Commons projects. I have written several GAs and over a dozen DYKs in the past few months on English Wikipedia as well.

I would like to return to my former levels of activity, in my areas of expertise (Eastern Europe), just like after a six months break I was able to resume clean up work for WP:POLAND. I have a nearly finished Poland-history-related Featured Article rusting in my sandbox on Polish Wikipedia. I would like to resume my work on creating the economic history of Poland article. I would like to resume GA work on Juliusz Słowacki. A sample list of further article content subjects I plan to work on is visible on my userpage (usually I go through most of my to-do boxes in few months; obviously they have been mostly frozen since last December). There are also many wikiproject gnomish tasks I cannot help out with (and which are not being carried out) (more "to do" not being done). I often spot vandalism on my 3k+ watchlist, but instead of reverting it I have to report it to AIV or arbitrators I see online, which often means it takes hours between I see vandalism and it is reverted. And being able to answer simple requests from help, including those from sitting Arbitrators, instead of directing them to WT:POLAND, would be nice, too.

On a final note, I'd like to echo Radeksz calls for all editors in Eastern Europe to assume good faith and work collaboratively. This is what this project is about. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 11:37, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Response to Skäpperöd (first and only, I don't intend to engage in discussion on those pages, per the rules here): I am impressed you managed to post your statement so swiftly, even before I managed to post mine. I will just repeat what others have said in response to your comments in other recent amendments: 1) do you have any diffs from this year to bring, instead of rehashing old history? 2) Can you explain how this amendment would damage (instead of helping) the project - i.e. focus on the future, not the past (again...)? And 3) please stop misrepresenting what happened: a) the 2006 (2006, seriously?) RfC had no evidence, but unfounded allegations, not supported by majority of editors b) the 2008 ArbCom finding you cite did not mention any side or editor, you insert "Piotrus' group" without any basis, badly misrepresenting that finding c) I was within my right to vote in that AfD, the vote was not coordinated d) the mailing group, as stated before (including, I am sure, in the evidence archive) was created in December 2008; please stop alleging to the contrary. Lastly: I respect the work you have done in relation to German-Polish history and related subjects, and I'd hope you could see beyond our differences, assume good faith and try to work together with me and others to create a better project, in the spirit of good-faithed cooperation. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 11:37, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Darwinek
I always perceived a global all-encompassing topic ban on Central and Eatern European topics as too harsh. One can edit or create articles about e.g. Poland or Belarus without any controversy. The current ban prohibits Piotrus to create e.g. even a tiny stub about, say, some Russian economist or Polish river. I think the current ban should be ammended and liberalized. I believe Piotrus will not misuse it and will be of great help to WikiProject Poland, where he was most active in the past. I am sure he learned from his past mistakes and would responsibly use his ability to edit the Central and East European articles again. - Darwinek (talk) 12:30, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Lysy
If Piotrus served his so far de-facto probation well then it seems to prove that the sanctions did their job, are no longer needed, and in fact are harmful to the project content-wise. However, if the amendment is accepted and the ban is raised, I would suggest asking Piotrus for a parole, to help him remember that he should treat any Eastern-European issues in the same constructive manner as any other articles. Other than that, I'm totally for lifting the sanctions, as they seem to serve no purpose now. As for the Skäpperöd's comments, none of them seems relevant to the recent half a year period that is discussed here as the base for the amendment request. --Lysytalk 08:30, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Deacon of Pndpetzim
Essentially Piotrus' argument is: I might realise some of the things that happened in the past are unfortunate, but listen guys, I've been banned from this area for a few months and in those few months I haven't done anything bad in the area. So, obviously the ban is pointless and if you make me serve the ban I was originally given, you are being crueler than you need to be and depriving the 'Pedia of great content.

It is not news that Piotrus did a lot of writing for Polish and eastern European history articles. We knew that when we imposed the ban. The problem we had with Piotrus (or his side-kick Radek for that matter) is not this, nor that we discovered that all the allegations of co-ordinated bullying, edit-warring, wikilawyering and so on which had been leveled at him for years and ignored turned out to be true, but rather that that wasn't even the half of it.

You discovered that email archive, and you acted ... you sent out a message. You can of course be sure that they learned not to be so stupid as to have a email list that size and to record it so zealously. But you actually think they'll stop this kind of thing? Why would they? It was great for them ... and worked well, only trouble was that it leaked. So now that he has been caught and topic-banned, it is to be believed that he therefore saw the moral error of his ways? ;) Yeah, of course. He must have.

But sure, he might have ... he just might have. It is no matter, you guys don't know either way. And as appealing to your conscience as it might be to "give the benefit of the doubt", you have a responsibility to treat the possibility of gross misconduct as seriously as history suggests you should.

Moreover, you have already passed judgment on these offenses, offenses of the highest gravity. Is upholding previous ArbCom sanctions made in the aftermath of a long investigation against a background of rare community outrage really something that needs to trouble us as much as is being suggested? If the previous rulings were just a political show to quell the outrage which existed at the time, then sure you would revisit it after a few months. If you take it seriously otherwise, then overturning or significantly lightening the bans is very brave message to send to future perpetrators of such activity or to those contemplating such activity.

Finally, Piotrus has expertise in sociology and economics, and it is good that he can focus his attention there. It is good that he can focus his efforts there rather than in areas where he has a strong bias and a history of using wiki-gansterism and co-ordinated edit-warring in pursuit of ideological goals, where he has previously conspired to and succeeded by such methods in undermining and circumventing natural wikipedia safeguards like WP:NPOV, WP:BRD, WP:EW and so on. It is however very important for Piotrus to learn ... and for others to learn ... that once you do certain things, Wikipedia will come down on you and you won't get out of it just by waiting a few months and convincing a friend in good standing to make a case for you. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 01:46, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Charles Matthews
My experience as a past ArbCom member is that Piotrus is rather good at the wheedling tone (which he can employ on behalf of allies, however egregious their shortcomings). As editors, we have met on the site infrequently, but when we did it was shortly after the close of the second Eastern Europe case. My impression was that Piotrus had learned nothing: plain advocacy of a Polish-centred POV, warnings against conspiratorial Lithuanians, and so on. I think the ArbCom should apply here a thought from the old book of remedies, namely that sanctions which create a good editor out of a troublesome one are advantageous to the site. I would oppose varying them until there was evidence of a more profound change of heart. This seems a routine appeal based on the passage of time. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:38, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Kotniski
As usual, I fully support relaxation of Piotrus' restrictions, which seem to serve no purpose except to deprive Wikipedia of the useful contributions of a very productive editor. Whatever he is supposed to have done wrong, I think it's pretty clear he isn't going to do it again now that all eyes are on him.--Kotniski (talk) 09:56, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Nihil novi

 * The lifting of over-reaching sanctions seems to me the preferable course. Everyone commits transgressions, and these should be monitored for.  But one no longer imposes long-term banishments or capital punishment for the hundreds of crimes and misdemeanors for which such drastic sanctions were applied as recently as a couple of centuries ago. Nihil novi (talk) 12:00, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Igny
My statement seems superfluous by now, but after looking over recent history of Piotrus contributions, and knowing quite well the positive influence Piotrus had on all the usual hotheads in EE disputes, I fully support lifting the sanctions. (Igny (talk) 23:29, 30 June 2010 (UTC))

Statement by Jan eissfeldt
i contributed to the amendment-request in april by raising the point of his university cooperation projects. therefore, i have the feeling that i have the duty to report the review results of his spring-project (may-june):

as long as i can see now, it worked without guideline problems or conflicts and the participants improved social- and political science related articles like periphery countries and great divergence. his project reached the well-established standards in the content- as well as the perspective of civilized behavior, best regards --Jan eissfeldt (talk) 15:20, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Visor
I fully support lifting these sanctions — his works measured by new articles, high quality articles (FAs/GAs), working around community and overall contribution are really worthy for WP. He will be able to improve many of EE- and Poland-related articles. Piotrus' works will be examined very deeply and all negative aspects will be considered quickly. Visor (talk) 07:50, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Heimstern
I could probably sum it up this way: Listen to Deacon. These sanctions need to be strong and maybe even harsh because the case in question was not some isolated case; it was the latest in a string of EE-related cases that involved Piotrus (and loads of others) and it was, quite bluntly, hammer time. Lifting them now is not in the best interests of our EE-related articles or our editors who are editing these articles after actually leaving their POVs at the door. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 19:30, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Petri Krohn
I would not object to Piotrus creating content on Poland and I feel that his inability to do so is a great loss to Wikipedia. However, this was carefully weighted in the original Arbcom case, with Piotrus only narrowly escaping permaban.

What I see as disturbing is that Piotrus is all too eager in engaging in the your-nation-genocided-my-nation battles of Eastern Europe. I believe this edit from 1 June 2010 is a violation of his topic ban. The article, Cultural genocide is at the very heart of the Eastern European disputes. The edit, while it may seem innocent, in fact pushes a POV wording that the United Nations could not agree on in 60 years of debating the issue. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:56, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Further discussion

 * Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Clerk notes

 * This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).


 * Closing as not mathematically possible to pass, per request of an arbitrator. <b style="color:navy;">NW</b> ( Talk ) 01:41, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Arbitrator views and discussion

 * I have always thought that some of the remedies in the Eastern European mailing list case swept much too broadly, although my suggestions to this effect (see the proposed decision page in the case) were not agreeable to the other arbitrators. In this instance, I think some relief from the sanction is appropriate at this stage, but I am not sure whether the better course is to lift it altogether (and then closely monitor developments!) or to more narrowly tailor it to the specific areas of conflict. I would appreciate some input on this issue. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:42, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Recused on EEML.  Roger Davies  talk 12:44, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 * My thoughts at this point are not to lift the sanctions in this case at this point, as I am concerned about some things. Possibly another month or two.. SirFozzie (talk) 12:27, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Too soon after the last amendment. I would want to give it more time to see how the previous amendment is working out in practice. I would suggest three months between successive amendments, independent of whether other people are submitting amendments as well, and even if we haven't been consistent about this in the past. Having a slew of EEML-related amendments at around the same time sends the wrong signal, in my view. Each previous amendment should be accompanied by a note on the minimum period before a new amendment can be filed relating to that editor, otherwise we get overwhelmed. Carcharoth (talk) 12:57, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * While I think I've been among the most sympathetic arbitrators to the early lifting of EEML amendments (I just moved my third such motion in the request above, and also moved the two earlier motions narrowing the topic bans), I'm not comfortable doing so here. We're dealing with a long history of problematic behaviour in this case, and also the behaviour of someone who, as a then-administrator, should have known better.  I take particular note of the comments of Deacon and Charles Matthews, which I find persuasive.  I do not agree with Carch's comments that this amendment request should be rejected purely because a different amendment was recently accepted. Steve Smith (talk) 15:53, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Recused on EEML. Shell  babelfish 19:53, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Opposed premature. and per steve.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 00:33, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Concur with my colleagues who feel this is premature, particularly Steve Smith. Risker (talk) 19:38, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Recused. Kirill [talk] [prof] 03:10, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Request to amend prior case: Eastern European mailing list (5)
Permanent link

Initiated by P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK at''' 19:58, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Case affected :


 * Clauses to which an amendment is requested
 * 1) Remedy 11A)

At alternate case, but proposed as impacted:
 * List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
 * (initiator)
 * (initiator)
 * (initiator)
 * (initiator)
 * (initiator)
 * (initiator)
 * (initiator)
 * (initiator)
 * (initiator)
 * (initiator)


 * Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request
 * Biruitorul
 * Dc76
 * Digwuren
 * jacurek
 * Martintg
 * Miacek
 * Piotrus
 * Radeksz
 * Tymek
 * Russavia

Amendment 1

 * [Remedy 11A) Editors restricted]


 * 1) Request to limit term of interaction bans.
 * 2) * This is a request to limit the interaction ban 11A) to be minimally co-terminus with remaining remedies in effect.
 * 3) * This is a request to limit an associated reciprocal interaction ban at another case to be minimally co-terminus with EEML remedy 11A)
 * 4) * This is a request (additional) to lift the interaction ban to which an editor is subject once all other remedies to which the editor is subject under the EEML case are satisfied (expire) or are lifted.
 * 5) This is a request to modify the interaction ban to promote positive community interaction within the confines of any other remedies in effect.
 * 6) * As pertains to this case.
 * 7) * As pertains to an associated reciprocal interaction ban at another case

Stated as a single amendment because request is for Remedy 11A) to be reworded to address outstanding and inter-related concerns. One inclusive proposal is provided.

Amendment 1, revised/consolidated
Regarding the reciprocal interaction bans, EEML <-> Russavia, all editors so sanctioned may nevertheless comment positively on other editors in the third person. Any individual EEML editor and Russavia may appeal jointly to lift their interpersonal interactivity ban should they both desire to do so, committing to uphold Wikipedia's standards of conduct. The bans on unnecessary commentary and interaction otherwise remain in effect.

Per feedback below on clarity and comments I have received here and elsewhere. I believe this would build a bridge toward a more collegial environment. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 00:08, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Vecrumba
Over a week has passed and this contribution by Russavia has not garnered a response. I commend Russavia for their positive comments regarding Miacek; nevertheless, statements such as (my emphasis): are both combative and an inappropriate re-litigation of EEML. I interpret Russavia's comments and the lack of any reprimand as proof that the current interaction ban structure is not working.
 * "although I am under a ban from commenting on EEML members, I don't really care"
 * "I was disappointed, and somewhat disgusted, that Miacek was part of that group, considering the amount of harrassment I was put under by the group"
 * "rather than the propaganda pushing that the EEML partook in"
 * "you [Miacek] were never part of the harrassment against myself"

Accordingly, I am proposing changes to interaction bans currently in effect in order to facilitate uniform enforcement while also promoting positive community conduct.


 * I believe #1 above is self-explanatory. In particular, the interaction bans (at EEML and Russavia's reciprocal subsequent) expiring also addresses problems regarding their interpretation and potential restrictions on the activities of editors even after all other remedies are satisfied. As currently worded, the interaction ban can be strictly interpreted as allowing only for necessary disputes, banning other interaction on any article, talk page, or user talk page; that is, once my topic ban expires, I can't edit any article requiring interaction with Russavia, which is equivalent to a topic ban covering any article Russavia chooses to edit. Hopefully unintended, as discussing article content would be a necessary action, but, again, a possible interpretation as there is no differentiating positive and not so positive interaction and no specific mention of what is, in fact, allowed outside the conflict venue.


 * I believe #2 reflects both feedback I received when (nevertheless, still) blocked for supporting lifting Russavia's ban as well as the lack of action regarding Russavia's (positive) comments regarding the lifting of Miacek's ban. If relationships among editors are to improve, there should be a venue for that before resumption of full activity in the field of prior conflict. Specifically I am proposing the following as the amended remedy (per #1 and #2):


 * 11A) The editors sanctioned by name in this decision are prohibited from commenting on accusing or unnecessarily interacting with confronting Russavia (talk · contribs) on any page of Wikipedia, except for purposes of legitimate and necessary dispute resolution. Positive and constructive interactions which do not violate other remedies in effect are exempt and encouraged. This remedy expires for all editors sanctioned under EEML at the satisfaction (expiration) of all other EEML remedies with explicit terms of duration. This remedy expires for specific editors if all other EEML remedies with explicit terms of duration regarding said editor have been satisfied or lifted. 
 * Responding to Martintg, I suggest the interaction ban stay in place until all term remedies expire. That could be two years (based on Digwuren's ban and then topic ban. It can always be shortened. P ЄTЄRS  J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 21:24, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I trust this proposed amendment is viewed as moving us forward. If so, the updated wording needs to be applied to amend Russavia's interaction ban as well.

Lastly, I have not reported the offending portion of Russavia's violation of their interaction ban because I hoped we were done with EEML.


 * @Shell, I'm not here to re-litigate EEML or to be the keeper or policeman of anyone who has cast my on-Wiki activities as being less than honorable. Old Latvian saying from my now dear and departed mother, when you stomp on shit it only spreads and stinks. I see Russavia has reported themselves at enforcement. That is either noble or cynical, but any block will (IMHO) increase their sense of martyrdom at my hands rather than engender any improvement in attitude. I'm the one suffering a topic ban for a year for (as I explained at the proceedings) participating in a consensus-related discussion at worst three times that I had not already found and contributed (and I would have found them); and the finding that I canvassed was a grossly bad-faith interpretation of my absconded personal correspondence. I've accepted the punishment despite that nothing I said mattered. I should have asked for the IP logs to exonerate myself instead of thinking ArbCom would accept my explanation of bulk-reading my Email. Water under the bridge. That's how WP works. Time to move on.
 * My hope was to open just a small window for positive communications. That would have allowed Russavia to say something nice about Miacek without feeling the need to editorialize on his interaction ban leading to editorializing regarding his (unsubstantiated) victimology in what (IMHO) was an inevitable chain reaction. Reporting Russavia would just be treating him the way he has treated me. I had no desire to take that route. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 19:56, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Following on to feedback at my talk... I think there are two categories of communication to consider, first where one can comment positively on an editor in the third person, the second which involves personal interaction. I think it is worthwhile to promote the former so that when it does come time for the latter—and that can be by mutual consent if otherwise under restriction—that can stand a better chance of moving past prior conflicts. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 20:59, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Statement by other editor
{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}


 * Comment. While there may or may not be some merit in tweaking the wording, lifting the interaction bans concurrently with any relaxation of any topic ban is too early. I'm happy with the current interaction bans as they stand, as it helps to settle things down and provide clear air. --Martin (talk) 20:44, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Point taken. How do you feel about the first part, that is, allowing for positive interaction if not otherwise restricted by topic ban? As for lifting, I would accept a statement which indicates the term of the interaction ban will be reviewed at a given point. I'd still like clarification whether normal interaction on content at an article (once there is no topic ban in effect) is explicitly permitted. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 21:21, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The interaction ban ought to be lifted on a case by case basis. If two people want to let bygones be bygones and collaborate such as here, then that's perfectly okay, the interaction ban should be relaxed in that specific instance. In such cases a joint declaration from the two parties of their desire to work together should be sufficient to lift the interaction ban in that specific instance and the case log be appropriately annotated. If the wording of the remedy was tweeked to allow such a fast track method of appeal, that's okay with me. --Martin (talk) 23:35, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * IMO lifting the interaction ban would be premature, although I would certainly support clarification that it is inapplicable whenever there is mutual consent to interaction, as is apparently the case with Miacek. Nobody is going to enforce the ban in such cases anyway. Nevertheless although I am under a ban from commenting on EEML members, I don't really care, I was disappointed, and somewhat disgusted, that Miacek was part of that group, considering the amount of harrassment I was put under by the group, rather than the propaganda pushing that the EEML partook in and the like are inappropriate for a good reason, and should remain so. Colchicum (talk) 01:30, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * This is a ridiculous WP:Drama. Russavia tells that he is not going to abide his interaction ban, just a week after coming back from his block for violating the ban . Vecrumba reacts by filing this amendment. Russavia posts an AE statement, then tells he did it by mistake instead of his userspace . People, that's disruptive. If anything, it proves that interaction bans were a good decision and must be strictly enforced. Biophys (talk) 23:36, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Re to Vecrumba. "Breaking ice" is easy. As soon as your topic ban expire or lifted, go to the subjects that Russavia edits and edit them in the way he likes. Debate the improvement of content and agree with him. Then, your request to amend the interaction ban would be very much reasonable.Biophys (talk) 15:09, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I had two choices. One was to report Russavia as if I'm their policeman, the way they reported me for violating my ban at "Aspic" for example. The other was to find a way to move on as plenty of admins took notice of Russavia's comments, after all, Miacek's appeal was granted, and did absolutely nothing. Since the administrative system is broken, it's up to editors to find ways to break the ice to put past conflicts behind us as the administrative folk aren't going to be of much assistance, IMHO. If this results in drama, things are worse than I thought because it means that after serving more than half my ban, I can't look forward to anything having improved when I return to EE topics. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 02:12, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
 * p.s. I always took pride that in all my years of experience I had managed to never do an ANI or AE except twice, once to ask that Irpen receive some advice (explicitly stating I wasn't looking for a ban or block) and once at Russavia's meltdown at Soviet Story. I don't intend to stoop to the endless sniping being fed by the endless well of WP bad faith. The day I think WP can't be improved, that we can't all be better, I'm leaving. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 02:23, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Amendment 2

 * Link to principle, finding of fact, or remedy to which this amendment is requested
 * Details of desired modification

Statement by your username (2)
{Statement by editor filing request for amendment. Contained herein should be an explanation and evidence detailing why the amendment is necessary.}

Statement by other editor (2)
{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Further discussion

 * Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Clerk notes

 * This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Per direction of Rlevse, I am closing this amendment request as "no action taken". <b style="color:navy;">NW</b> ( Talk ) 03:15, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Arbitrator views and discussion

 * Recused. Kirill [talk] [prof] 07:05, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm recused on part of this, but as an aside, if you see a violation like that please report it rather than waiting for someone to notice and do something. With hundreds of different restrictions in place and the sheer volume of edits to Arb related pages, it's always possible something will get missed. Shell   babelfish 11:07, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Recused.  Roger Davies  talk 12:29, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose due to too vague and confusing.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 20:56, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see a consensus emerging for this change at this time. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:56, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Request to amend prior case: Eastern European Mailing List (4)
Initiated by  Martin (talk) at 20:58, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Case affected :


 * Clauses to which an amendment is requested
 * 1) Remedy 7


 * List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
 * (initiator)


 * Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request
 * N/A

Amendment 1

 * 
 * This is a request to amend EEML Remedy 7 to end the topic ban that applies to Martintg and allow him to edit articles related to Eastern Europe.

Statement by Martintg
The locus of the WP:EEML case relates to off-wiki co-ordination and canvassing, which was done via a mail list. In the nearly nine months since I've taken stock, while taking a break to pursue some postgrad study. During that time I've reflected on what went wrong. I joined the maillist primarily as a convenient way to socially network with a bunch of people I've come to know through contributing to Wikipedia. Unfortunately this convenience led members of the list, myself included, into behaviour that crossed the line. This was due to a kind of mob mentality and a sense of hubris that developed along with it. This I regret. Prior to joining that list I was an editor in good standing, a clear block log, no ANI reports, no 3RR reports, no RFC/Us, no ArbCom cases about me, nothing.

In support I would like the committee to consider:
 * 1) my previously un-problematic record (clean block log prior to joining the EEML and this affirmation of my previously good standing), indicating there is no issue of recidivism
 * 2) my previous relaxation  had caused no problem
 * 3) no violations of any WP:EEML sanctions since the case closed
 * 4) your support for the relaxation of the topic ban for other editors
 * 5) my expression of regret at the trouble caused by EEML membership and undertaking to put all that behind me

Since December I have created some articles on German politicians and political organisations and had sourced a small number of Estonian biographies without any issues (many were not notable so I hadn't bothered with those) after I requested and was granted a relaxation to my topic ban.

In regard to my plans in the area, I would like to continue to expand the range of arts and literature topics for Wikiproject Estonia. Previously I had filled in many significant gaps such as Culture of Estonia, along with a lot of related articles on literary figures (for example August Sang, Villem Grünthal-Ridala, Johannes Aavik), movements (e.g. Arbujad, Young Estonia and Siuru) and institutions like Art Museum of Estonia and Estonian Literary Museum. (A more comprehensive list is on my user page). There is still a lot to do, as you can see by the red links in Template:Culture_of_Estonia. Despite my continuing studies I expect to devote a little more of my time than in the past few months, as I do enjoy contributing my free time to Wikipedia.

Having ended such off-wiki co-ordination, and given an undertaking not to engage in such behaviour going forward, the conditions that led to the problematical behaviour no longer exists. There will be no off-wiki coordination, no canvassing, no usage of hidden communication to create the appearance of a consensus. I have learnt my lesson, will ensure this will be avoided in the future.

On a final note, I could have just as easily waited out the remainder of my topic ban and quietly slipped back into editing the area without subjecting myself to this, without having to acknowledge the issues that led to topic ban or make an undertaking in regard to the future. The fact I am requesting an early relaxation and thus am prepared to acknowledge these issues and make the undertaking should be viewed as a positive development by the committee and be applauded, not ignored or viewed sceptically (which would be wholly unjustified given my previous good standing and good behaviour since).

Response to Motions
After nearly eight weeks of waiting, I am appreciative that the Committee is finally acting on this and has proposed a couple of motions. But I have to question whether Brad's proposed motion isn't a pandora's box of gaming potential (as it was originally pointed out when he first proposed it in the EEML case). Not gaming by me, but by my opponents who would seek to exploit the ambiguity present to game and shop for admin action.

This isn't an idle concern, recently Biophys was topic banned from editing articles about the Soviet Union and former Soviet Republics, yet when he edited Pyotr Chaadayev, an 18th Century figure of Imperial Russia (thus clearly not a former Soviet republic and outside the scope of his ban), that didn't stop his opponents from claiming otherwise , with one going as far as suggesting that Biophys broke his topic ban because the source of the quote he inserted into Pyotr Chaadayev was from a book written by an author who also wrote about the Soviet Union!, while admins like Jechochman ominously choose to take the negative view, despite Shell clarifying the scope of the topic ban

So I'm not confident that creating an article as innocuous as Visual arts in Estonia will not attract the attention of my opponents who would attempt to wiki-lawyer a case that I had violated this new amended topic ban and shop for admin action, given that the Soviet period had a significant impact on visual arts in Estonia. I don't think it would be fair on me to provide such a vague amendment that has the potential to be gamed and invite such a circus to decend upon me.

Therefore, given that I've already served almost 8 month of my topic ban, I ask that the committee take into consideration my former good standing, post ban good behaviour and assurances going forward (which seemed sufficient here so why aren't mine?) and support the first motion to lift my ban entirely so that I can have clear air to make a positive contribution without the threat of vexatious litigation. --Martin (talk) 06:40, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Response to Igny's comments
Shortly after being granted permission to source a number of BLPs, I had an opportunity to undertake some study. Unfortunately about a month later, Igny involved me in an SPI case, however somebody kindly informed me of this via email. I can't recall having really interacted with him that much prior to the EEML case, so it was somewhat surprising that he would go after me like that.

Russavia also became involved in this SPI case too, as he did in a number of other AE cases launching complaints against Radeksz, Biruitorul and Biophys. Consequently the Russavia-Biophys ArbCom case was opened. I took that opportunity to request an interaction ban for Russavia. I believe I conducted myself correctly in that case and Shell even appreciated my decorum. Igny ended up getting blocked for 31 hours for misconduct on the case workshop.

Igny states I wasted everyone's time in that ArbCom case. It is true that I did waste a bit of time, it could have been spent more productively on my studies, but I think given the outcome it was well worth the effort. It's not a nice experience to be informed by email that some are still on the warpath. The way I see it, the bulk of the problems really boil down to personality clashes, some people are just implacably opposed to each other no matter what. Sad, but it's a fact of life. Probably in such cases interaction bans are the way to go when editors can't voluntarily refrain from finding fault and battling with others.

I'm perplexed at Igny's comments here, given that he hasn't made that many recent edits himself either. We all operate under different constraints. After completing the semester I found time from family and friends to source those BLPs that I had committed to sourcing. Wikipedia is a free project, which also means that anyone can devote as little or as much time as they can. I believe I'm a competent editor with an understanding of Wikipedia's policies. I've had a long time to re-think things during my self imposed "site ban", and I do "get it" now. I just want to get on and derive some enjoyment from contributing to topics that interest me while allowing others to do the same, without this battleground BS. 2009 was an adventure I do not want to repeat. --Martin (talk) 05:37, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Further response to Igny's comments
I am some what mystified by Igny's claims of "our personal clashes in the past", as I can't recall a single instance where we might of clashed personally, apart from the recent SPI Igny launched against me while I was away, let alone interacted to any significant degree on any particular article. I just scanned the EEML archive and Igny isn't mentioned at all, so he didn't appear on the list's radar. Perhaps he may have been somewhat radicalised by the EEML case itself, and may have adopted other people's past battles as his own. I hope that is not the case, since from what I have seen of Igny in the past, he seems to be quite a reasonable person with which I could work with.

As to Igny's question whether a topic ban is designed to demonstrate if an "editor's problematic behavior occurs again when he returns to the EE disputes", note that I had edited German related topics in January and February with no problems, and I think I amply demostrated decorum in my response to an EE dispute not of my making thrust upon me by Igny in the form of the SPI in March and again in the follow-up Russavia-Biophy case (and note that I didn't involve Igny in my proposals presented in the case workshop). So the risk of problematic behaviour has been demonstrated to be nil. --Martin (talk) 00:48, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Response to Biophy's comments
Notwithstanding the fact that Biophys may well be risking a violation of his topic ban by commenting here, my involvement in the Russavia-Biophys case was related to Russavia's behaviour in the SPI case, revealing personal information even when asked to stop, for which there was a FoF and an Admonishment and a Restriction. It is true that I spent a bit too much time at the end of the case arguing for more equitable topic bans for the parties with Shell, as that end part did impact my study time a bit, and I probably ended up just annoying Shell too (sorry Shell). In that sense it was a distraction, but in terms of seeking an reciprocal interaction ban (which remains in force regardless of whether or not my topic ban is relaxed) was necessary and unavoidable under the circumstances. --Martin (talk) 01:03, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

I see no battleground here. People are free to express their views or concerns on this page. I welcome this as it gives me an opportunity to respond as necessary to allay any legitimate concern. --Martin (talk) 18:30, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes it is true that I have commented in a few ArbCom cases, but my conduct in doing so has been exemplary and I was motivated by the desire to reduce the level of conflict in that space. If some people are upset that I did comment, well I guess that is to be expected. The Committee can and does examine the behaviour of anyone participating, as they did in the Eastern European disputes case. Krohn's mysterious emailer had every opportunity to present evidence against me, and I'm sure they did during that case however the Committee exercised their judgement. --Martin (talk) 11:37, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Response to The Four Deuce's comments
I've virtually never interacted with TFD in the past, the first time being when I voted "Keep" at this AfD which resulted in "No Concensus". I did canvas that on the EEML and that was wrong, no bones about it. After the EEML ArbCom case began there a two more AfDs where only two or three EEML members independently voted and these resulted in "No Concensus", despite the closing admin being made aware of the existance of the EEML case and its membership. Finally a 4th AfD was initiated this year where absolutely no one from the EEML voted, yet it resulted in a "Keep". While it was clearly wrong to canvass the first AfD, non-involvement in the 4th actually resulted in an outcome I would have wanted anyway. Go figure.

And yet TFD appears to be continuing to invoke the EEML bogey man in that article, recently claiming "When the article was listed for deletion, they decided off-wiki to rename the article", when in fact the original move discussion had no EEML involvement and predated the AfD, in fact the very first AfD comment confirms that. I don't know why The Four Deuces is singling me out in particular and WP:Poking me with untrue stuff.

TFD's statement has in my view many misleading points, so I'll address them line by line:
 * "Martintg's defence is basically that he fell into the wrong crowd and he is sorry."
 * No, I didn't say that at all. There is nothing wrong with the individuals, but unfortunately a mob mentality developed and led some of us of otherwise good standing (I had a clear block log prior to joining the EEML) to cross the line, which I regret.


 * "However, Martintg does not mention any actions he took that he regrets, any articles that he and his colleagues edited and now wish to repair or any editor he offended he now wishes to apologize to."
 * Sure, the canvassing was wrong, I accept that, but I stand by the substance of all my edits (but in some cases not the form, i.e. the occasional edit warring). I not sure why I need to apologise to TFD though, I've not known TFD prior to the EEML case.


 * "This group shared a minority political point of view and damaged the neutrality of numerous articles and continued to collaborate off-wiki even after the case was presented against them."
 * This is an incredible blanket statement. TFD has no idea what my politics are, or that of other members, and I ended collaboration with the list at beginning of the case. The political viewpoints are as diverse as can be expected by the differing backgrounds and locations of the group members. For example, in my estimation, the majority of the group is for gun control and against Arizona's immigration laws.


 * "They do not accept that Wikipedia articles should be neutral and tied up the time of numerous editors. While it may be that they will no longer coordinate their efforts, their approach as individuals is damaging to neutrality."
 * Again this is a nonsense blanket statement. I've always striven for neutrality, as you can see from the many articles I've created.


 * "It is irritating that as I and other editors were arguing with Martintg and his colleagues and they were presenting arguments against us that off-wiki there were agreeing that our arguments made sense and trying to develop a new approach."
 * This is an absolutely, flat out untrue.


 * "Surely editors like this drive away most of the editors we want to attract, people who have the ability to write articles and those who remain are tied up in silly disputes."
 * I don't know who TFD is referring to here, but I don't think I should become the whipping boy of all that he thinks is wrong with Wikipedia.


 * "Dispute resolution, reporting editors for 3RR, writing Wikiquette and ANI reports are extemely time-consuming and allowing editors like Martintg will only discourage capable editors who are discouraged by the processes to counter editors like Martintg."
 * Again I don't know who TFD is referring too here, my record shows that I have a relatively clean record in this regard, apart from a block for a 3RR violation that was applied 20 hours after I had undone my 4th revert, and a mis-applied block for alleged OUTING that never ocurred. In fact the Committee previously scrutinized my record and found no substantive policy violation

I don't understand what TFD seeks to gain in continuing to flog the EEML dead horse, even insinuating there is some kind of far-right anti-Semitic agenda at play (not the first time either, having to redact similar comment previously ), which I find somewhat offensive. I do wonder why I have become the whipping boy of people like TFD who I have never crossed paths with in the past. Nor is it likely that I will interact with him in the future as our interests are divergent. At least Piotrus has the benefit of real opponents with real history of interaction and real issues which can be worked on. But as far as I'm concerned, the EEML horse is truly dead and buried. --Martin (talk) 06:53, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Question to Rlevse
Could you provide some guidance as to the reasons for your opposition, given: I just want to use my time to contribute something useful to the topics I've indicated above, all I ask is that I be treated fairly. --Martin (talk) 02:50, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) my previous relaxation  had caused no problem
 * 2) my previously un-problematic record (clean block log prior to joining the EEML and this affirmation of my previously good standing), indicating there is no issue of recidivism
 * 3) no violations of any WP:EEML sanctions (unlike Biruitorul and Radeksz, both who have had their topic bans lifted)
 * 4) my expression of regret at the trouble caused by EEML membership and undertaking to put all that behind me
 * 5) your explicit support for the relaxation of the topic ban for Radeksz despite the strong concerns expressed by several editors who have a long history of interaction with him.

I'm not sure why Rlevse remains unconvinced. The locus of the WP:EEML case involved off-wiki co-ordination and canvassing, which was done via a mail list. Prior to joining that list I was in good standing, a clear block log, no ANI reports, no 3RR reports, no RFC/Us, no ArbCom cases about me, nothing. Having ended such off-wiki co-ordination, and given an undertaking not to engage in such behaviour going forward, I don't understand the basis of Rlevse's reluctance, given that he was previously supported lifting the sanction of another editor with a similar FoF. The conditions that led to the problematical behaviour no longer exists, and having learnt my lesson, will ensure any similar will be avoided in the future. --Martin (talk) 11:40, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Response to Petri Krohn's comments
What can I say in response to a guy who claims I am the "chief battle axe" "promoting a fringe nationalistic agenda" that "has taken the form of a global ideological war over the legacy of the 20th century", while associating himself in his statement to a radical political organisation operating in Finland then accusing me of attempting to "distort Wikipedia to fit his political agenda". Hmmmm. I don't have any political agenda, I've never have been a member of any political group, let alone one with a published manifesto. Nor have I ever agitated at protest events or even have a blog, let alone write letters to editors. I'm just a regular Joe who enjoys editing Wikipedia in my spare time, attempting to reflect reliable sources with due weight to the best of my abilities. I would suggest that Petri Krohn removes his huge political plank from his eye before complaining about the speck he perceives in my eye.

What is even more spooky is his accusation that "this has extended to multiple forums on the Internet outside Wikipedia" and that "evidence sent to me were new instances of this campaign". Okay, should I be getting scared now that this individual appears to be stalking me outside Wikipedia gathering non-existent "evidence" of this "global ideological war"? Petri Krohn threatens to start an ArbCom case against me should this motion pass, he is free to do so if he wishes.

Petri Krohn has also appended what seems essentially to be a polemic written by someone "who wishes to remain anonymous" presented as evidence. Who ever this anonymous person is, perhaps it is Petri Krohn himself, I will never the less address the main points: Petri Krohn admits that his involvement here was a result of being canvassed offline by someone unknown, stating "However, someone, who wishes to remain anonymous, contacted me, and – knowing the strong feelings I have privately expressed about the issue at hand – implied that I am a pussy if I do not express my strongest objection to this motion". So evidently there is an element of off-wiki co-ordination going on here. (Perhaps TFD was also canvassed off-wiki to comment here, that would explain his involvement given no real history between us, who knows). It is a pity that Petri has chosen to resume this troubled path of confrontation, apparently driven by what he perceives as his "global ideological war over the legacy of the 20th century", but I'm simply not going to buy into it.
 * All the diffs cited in point 2 in relation to the article Denial of the Holodomor are from 2008. Edit warring in that article was investigated in Requests for arbitration/Eastern European disputes. I don't think it appropriate to re-litigate something from 2008. In any case I've not edited that article since September 2008.
 * Regarding point 3, whether a topic ban extends to commenting on a particular editor when there is no interaction ban in place is a grey area that certain admins have taken a position on. I note that Biophys has commented upon myself despite his topic ban here in this amendment request without consequence. However, when advised by such admins to desist in particular cases I have complied.

Why should some one like Petri Krohn, apparently an activist with a clear and documented political agenda, be allowed to smear me and sour my editing experience because he imagines me to be his political enemy solely because I happen to have an interest in Baltic topics? --Martin (talk) 04:36, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

PS, I'm intrigued by Krohn's reference to the Simon Wiesenthal Center in his statement. I checked out that article and found and fixed some issues. But I don't see the relevance here, unless Petri Krohn is attempting to insinuate something that editors were warned not to do in a previous ArbCom case. --Martin (talk) 20:55, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Response to Vecrumba's comments
Well sure, if the Committee wants to impose some kind of conditionality, that's fine with me. ArbCom wouldn't even need to be watching that closely, as it's been demonstrated here that there are more than enough eyes to scrutinise my behaviour, even by those wiki-warriors who believe there is a global ideological war over the legacy of the 20th centuryTM. Note that I did complete BLP sourcing after a previous relaxation without any issue or drama, so it would be disappointing if the Committee where to now apply the brakes and not relax the topic ban further in some way. I could have just as easily waited out the remainder of my topic ban and return to editing later, I've got plenty of other things to do in the mean time. However the fact that I am requesting an early return should be viewed as a positive development as it indicates that I have acknowledged the issues of the past and have undertaken to more forward. --Martin (talk) 20:52, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Response to Artem Karimov's comments
I'll keep it short. I've never ever come across Artem Karimov in the past, never interacted with him or even worked on a common set of articles beyond a random intersection. So I don't know how he would know what my politics or inclinations are, certainly not "pro-nationalist", what ever that means, or why he would choose comment here. I wonder what next some other random person will accuse me of being. --Martin (talk) 01:28, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Igny
I can not recommend the lift of the ban for Martin based on his recent WP activity. In the recent 100 edits he just wasted everyone's time when participating in Russavia-Biophys EEML-related ArbCom case, and after some break just when EEML case was due for review and just when others filed for an amendment Martin rushed with several BLP fixes for EE related persons as if it was simply done to satisfy the previous amendment and justify a new one. (Igny (talk) 04:12, 8 July 2010 (UTC))

Update: I understand I could be too harsh in my statement and quite possibly our personal clashes in the past contributed to this. But in any case a "site-wide self-imposed ban" is not the right way to deal with topic bans. Topic bans were placed in part to reduce battleground mentality in controversial areas and productive work elsewhere was needed to demonstrate how an editor in question copes with withdrawal from the battleground. Just going into self-imposed exile for the length of the topic ban (regardless of the real life constraints) does poor job answering the question whether editor's problematic behavior occurs again when he returns to the EE disputes. I still think that Martin's lift of the ban is premature at the moment. Also tu quoque was not the right counter-argument to my point above.(Igny (talk) 13:19, 8 July 2010 (UTC))

Re NYB and SirFozzie, I understand that you are willing to put your trust in that Martintg will not return to the "previous behavior". Could you clarify by showing examples of particular behavior that might warrant reinstatement of the ban? (Igny (talk) 21:10, 20 July 2010 (UTC))

Statement by Biophys
I support lifting the ban for Martin because he was productive and created sixty six new pages. Whatever problems he might have in the past, six months was a long time, and Martin was never a major "violator" anywhere. So I wonder what was the reason for the statements against him? Most probably, this is happening because he commented in a number of cases, including my case (which he was allowed to do). He should not be commenting on any cases according to the anonymous e-mailer to Petri. No so. In fact, the comments by Marting on-wiki were very much legitimate, much better than the cowardly letter by the anonymous emailer to Petri. Biophys (talk) 12:28, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Statement by The Four Deuces
I object to lifting this remedy. Considerable time was spent on the EEML case and its members, rather than accepting the facts presented, wasted months of time of arbitrators and witnesses and were very offensive to them. Martintg's defence is basically that he fell into the wrong crowd and he is sorry. However, Martintg does not mention any actions he took that he regrets, any articles that he and his colleagues edited and now wish to repair or any editor he offended he now wishes to apologize to. This group shared a minority political point of view and damaged the neutrality of numerous articles and continued to collaborate off-wiki even after the case was presented against them. They do not accept that Wikipedia articles should be neutral and tied up the time of numerous editors. While it may be that they will no longer coordinate their efforts, their approach as individuals is damaging to neutrality. It is irritating that as I and other editors were arguing with Martintg and his colleagues and they were presenting arguments against us that off-wiki there were agreeing that our arguments made sense and trying to develop a new approach. Surely editors like this drive away most of the editors we want to attract, people who have the ability to write articles and those who remain are tied up in silly disputes. Dispute resolution, reporting editors for 3RR, writing Wikiquette and ANI reports are extemely time-consuming and allowing editors like Martintg will only discourage capable editors who are discouraged by the processes to counter editors like Martintg. TFD (talk) 04:20, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Petri Krohn
I loathe getting in any way involved in the Wikipedia arbitration process and have thus far been able to avoid any involvement – so much so, that I have not even written a word to my defense in the now infamous WP:DIGWUREN case. However, someone, who wishes to remain anonymous, contacted me, and – knowing the strong feelings I have privately expressed about the issue at hand – implied that I am a pussy if I do not express my strongest objection to this motion. He also sent me evidence (see appendix) he had prepared in response to Martin's latest comments.

Martin's actions on the Internet, on and off Wikipedia, show that his only interest on the web is promoting a fringe nationalistic agenda, or in Wikipedia terms, he is a single purpose account. Since our paths first crossed sometime in early 2007 the underlying dispute has taken the form of a global ideological war over the legacy of the 20th century. I believe in some ways the early editing disputes and the formulation of opposing positions on Wikipedia talk pages have later influenced the positions some of the main players in this battle have taken. I may be as much involved in this ideological battle as Marting is. However I have not used Wikipedia article space as a platform to promote my fringe ideas. I will rather let the Historical Truth Commission and the Simon Wiesenthal Center speak for me.

From this POVish point of expertise I can testify that Marting is the chief battle axe of the opposing side. He is not the benign Wikignome he now pretends to be. Anything he touches will turn into distortion of facts or into a political battlefield. His presence on Wikipedia, in the contested subjects, is venom to the key principle of neutral point-of-view. So far he has shown no interest in editing outside his chosen battlefield, for example in his field of professional expertise.

For several years now Martin has been waging a politically motivated attack campaign against me, that is my Wikipedia account and the real life me. This has extended to multiple forums on the Internet outside Wikipedia. In the evidence sent to me were new instances of this campaign, unknown to me previously. If this proposed motion were to pass, I feel that I will finally have to start an arbitration case against Marting on this issue.

I have no objections to Martin using his freedom of speech to promote his ideas on the Internet. However, I cannot see why – having broken the key principles of Wikipedia – he should again be given a license to distort Wikipedia to fit his political agenda. -- Petri Krohn (talk)

Let me respond to Martintg's argumentation addressed to Rlevse because the points are so easily refutable.

1) of course the previous relaxation had caused no problem. Nor did Radeksz's or Piotrus's. In all cases they were used as basis to demand more like a slippery slope.

2) you never had a previously un-problematic record. Since the start of your Martintg account you revealed what Arbcom referred to as "poor behavior". Arbcom claimed no "good standing" in the Eastern European disputes arbitration, just that no actionable evidence against you was provided and that was the case. You were all battering Irpen, who refused that the scope should be changed from Piotrus and was overwhelmed by what became known as the EEML team. Provision of actionable evidence and the existence of actionable evidence is not the same, e.g. Irpen was sanctioned on the evidence of 22 reverts in the Holodomor denial article put on an indefinite 1RR per week with the obligation to discuss every single one. . One could have equally added Martintg's 15 reverts in the previous months on that article

              

3) Martintg did little else than take exceptional efforts to violate the spirit of the topic ban and remain an attention-seeking nuisance in the EE topic area despite topic ban. Immediately after the Arbitration ended, Martintg was back on arguing at Mass killings under Communist regimes, falling into the scope of the ban. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification&diff=prev&oldid=335698266 Next, he violated the spirit of the Russavia interaction ban and the EE topic ban with a comment about Russavia that sounded positive but had teeth  and needed to be reminded Next, Martintg disrupted an EE-related AE and was warned by Sandstein.  Still showing the finger, Martintg violated the topic ban again voting on Petri Krohn that was removed Martintg reverted the admin and continued , getting warned again. Next came Offliner and soon after the Biophys arbitration. AE request on Biruitorul? Martintg was there. Finally came Radeksz's amendment request.

4) Let me sum up what you wrote: you're all innocent, joined good-heartedly and suddenly became a victim to a mob mentality and hubris and crossed the line. That's not accepting fault but whitewashing and playing down.

5) The destruction of Radeksz's topic ban led to this  . For some reason this looks just like the pre-EEML-discovery Radeksz.

Amendment – I find this latest edit by Martintg a clear indication that he is NOT ready to enter into editing EE topics. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:16, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Vecrumba
To TheFourDeuces' gross misrepresentations, suppositions, and personal attacks, I invite him to provide evidence where anything I (or other EEML members) have represented on Wikipedia is other than a fair and accurate representation of reputable sources—and representing majority scholarly opinion on the Baltics and Eastern Europe. I regret that more than half a year has passed since imposition of the topic ban and TFD is not alone in continuing to demonstrate offensive bad faith in re-litigating EEML with unfounded charges.

I believe Martintg is ready to return to productive editing. If his behavior is less than exemplary, ArbCom will be watching. Perhaps a review at three months to "re-up" the lifting of his topic ban for the rest of the original term if impartial, uninvolved editors have a genuine concern. Martintg has nothing to fear from objective scrutiny. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 23:27, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

@Jehochman: Please desist from further discussion of private correspondence. Any discussion of you emanated from your acting as a proxy filing an arbitration request as a direct result of Offliner's lobbying you. I regret needing to remind you that you were the origin and only reason for your own mention. This is the second instance of your discussing private correspondence and professing to be a victim of EEML editors. At least I now know (your feeling you were victimized when you, in fact, victimized Baltic and EE editors) where your outrageous accusation came from that I likened Giano to Nazi Germany at the EEML proceedings. Please consider taking your own advice and stepping away for a spot of tea. P ЄTЄRS J V ЄСRUМВА  ►TALK 01:17, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Artem Karimov
I will keep it short. Pro-nationalist editors involved in disrupting Wikipedia should be topic-banned for quite some time. I doubt that lifting Marting's ban would be a net positive for the project. Artem Karimov (talk | edits) 12:52, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Jehochman
I oppose any loosening of sanctions on Martintg, unless there is a specific restriction against pursuing past disputes stemming from the EEML Case. Per my explanation here, Martintg has recently been violating or testing the limits of his existing topic ban. My name featured prominently in the mailing list archives as somebody to be neutralized. It is not at all appropriate for Martintg to be carrying on, today, a vendetta against me. Jehochman Talk 01:46, 30 August 2010 (UTC) and 12:15, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Further discussion

 * Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Clerk notes

 * This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

 * Recused on EEML. Shell  babelfish 19:50, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Recused  Roger Davies  talk 12:32, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 02:14, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * will think on this more.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 01:54, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I am simply unconvinced. Would reconsider around Oct.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 02:55, 7 August 2010 (UTC)


 * As with some of the other editors who were sanctioned in this decision, I would be agreeable to at least some curtailment or narrowing of the remedy&mdash;partly based on the feeling that the breadth of the remedy may have been wider than necessary to begin with, and in any event due to the lapse of time. Of course, if the remedy is lifted or narrowed, there would be a strong expectation that the problematic behaviors addressed in the original decision must not recur. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:11, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * My view remains as stated. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:29, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Looking at this, I'd be willing to let this go, with the caveat that there's not much wiggle room here, and that a return to previous behaviors will mean it's near-immediate reinstatement. SirFozzie (talk) 20:41, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I would consider a lifting or narrowing of the restrictions now, or in the future between now and October but, will not be initiating that myself . I think more arbitrators need to comment first. Carcharoth (talk) 23:14, 9 August 2010 (UTC) Update: Will post a motion this week. Carcharoth (talk) 05:49, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Noting that I've read Martintg's response and the postings at the user talk pages of Newyorkbrad and Rlevse, and my votes remain as posted below. I would ask that the editors that oppose this amendment think twice before trying to dispute editing that Martintg does following the passing of the alternative amendment. It will only serve to promote more ill-feeling. At some point, you need to learn how to work together, even if that seems impossible right now. And if you can't work together, learn to avoid each other. Carcharoth (talk) 18:56, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I think we had good success in the past with a more gradual return to the topic area, and I would support a more limited relaxation at this time. I am not, however, very favorable to removing it entirely at this time.  &mdash; Coren (talk) 00:56, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Motion (Martintg topic ban)
Remedy 7 of Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list ("Martintg topic banned") is lifted.

There being 8 active Arbitrators, not counting 1 who is recused, the majority is 5.


 * Support
 * Carcharoth (talk) 23:57, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * In favor of alternative motion below. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:25, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Prefer the alternative. Risker (talk) 05:13, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Per above. Kirill [talk] [prof] 19:23, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Too much too fast. Support alternative below.  &mdash; Coren (talk) 15:26, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
 * <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 00:00, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Mailer Diablo 12:02, 3 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Abstain


 * Recuse
 * Shell  babelfish 20:12, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Alternative motion
Remedy 7 of Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list "Martintg topic banned") is replaced with the following:
 *  is topic banned from articles about national, cultural, or ethnic disputes within Eastern Europe, their associated talk pages, and any process discussion about these topics, until December 22, 2010 (one year from the closing of the original case).

Enacted - Dougweller (talk) 16:21, 4 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Support
 * I think this modification would allow Martintg to edit all the articles he's mentioned in his request, without getting involved in the nationalist dispute articles that have previously been troublesome for these editors. The existing broader topic-ban expires in December, and I've left that timing unchanged. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:25, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Some additional discussion is on my talkpage here. My apologies for the cross-posting, but I'd responded to both Martintg and Jehochman there before seeing that they'd posted here as well. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:56, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Good alternative. Carcharoth (talk) 01:54, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Risker (talk) 05:13, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Kirill [talk] [prof] 19:23, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * This, I can support. &mdash; Coren (talk) 15:25, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
 * SirFozzie (talk) 02:16, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
 * <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 00:00, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Mailer Diablo 12:02, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
 * KnightLago (talk) 00:18, 4 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose


 * Abstain


 * Recuse
 * Shell  babelfish 20:12, 28 August 2010 (UTC)