Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Editor conduct in e-cigs articles/Workshop

SPACKlick's section
I'm slightly lost on this case and some real life disruption has gotten in the way of serious contribution. I think I'm seeing some balanced solutions that would help with both the advocacy concerns and the weighting issues, where is the appropriate venue to pose solutions arbcom could enforce? SPACKlick (talk) 10:16, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Proposed solutions go on the workshop page under the "Remedies" subheader in any editor's section. -- Euryalus (talk) 12:39, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm very lost as to how this step of the process is meant to work. What sorts of remedies we can propose etc. Can I be pointed to a guidance essay or similar? SPACKlick (talk) 13:32, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Best way to see how this is supposed to work is to look at some recent cases. For example this one. Essentially, /Evidence is where people outline the who and what of the issue; the /Workshop is where people propose ideas for how to fix it, the /Proposed Decision (PD) is where Arbitrators propose a binding outcome and then vote on it.


 * Ideally the Workshop provides some interchange of ideas and chance for comment and rebuttal from all sides, but focused on possible outcomes of the dispute rather than simple recounting of events. Contributions to the Workshop can be suggestions of policy Principles relevant to the case, suggested Findings based on the evidence, and/or suggested Remedies about what can be done to fix the issue.


 * Once the Workshop has run awhile and ideas have been discussed, the Arbitration Committee will cherrypick parts of the Workshop, and/or add their own ideas, and these form the PD.


 * So what sort of remedies can you propose? Anything really, from new forms of dispute resolution, to bans on other editors, to suggesting that nothing at all be done as the dispute will resolve itself. Whatever you feel is useful to propose, noting as always that this is about editor conduct and not content (eg. don't propose content outcomes, only ones related to addressing poor editor interaction). If you propose something that is somehow misplaced or inappropriate (like introducing entirely new evidence, or proposing sanctions on someone who hasn't even been mentioned so far), our friendly clerk team will be in touch to either remove it or ask that it be changed. So feel free to contribute what you like, provided it's in good faith.-- Euryalus (talk) 03:51, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

"confirming that a picture is not Muhammad"?!?
Almost a year ago I stopped editing the article, but I've occasionally participated on the talk page up until about half a year ago. I just today learned about this case, and stopped by to say I endorse Bluerasberry's initial statement saying that editing should generally be allowed to continue as it has been without topic bans, because from what I saw there was quite a bit of actual progress on improving the articles even when people were bickering. I have a feeling Britannica editors used to bicker behind the scenes too.

But anyway, then I saw stuff like "confirming that a picture is not Muhammad" from an IP here on the Workshop, and I don't know what to think. EllenCT (talk) 21:15, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected workshop page
The workshop page of this case is now semi-protected due to persistent disruption of the workshop and evidence pages of this case. Non-autoconfirmed users who have workshop proposals may send them by email to the Arbitration Committee at arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org. L235 (t / c / ping in reply ) 21:20, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

92.31.93.163's section
This unfortunate situation has arisen because the evidence upon which the workshop proposals are based has been removed. However, it can still be viewed. The preliminary statement is at. The evidence statement is at. Per Liz, the requested supplementary information follows.

Point 1
This is covered in the preliminary statement ("PS") in the portion beginning "He misrepresents other editors" and ending "15:42, 8 August 2015 (UTC)".

Point 2
This is covered in the evidence statement ("ES") in the portion beginning "he makes the dangerous assertion" and ending "(14:07, 2 April)."

Point 3
This is covered in the ES in the portion beginning "He says (14:21, 30 March)" and ending "Muhammad prohibiting intercalation." It is further covered in the following exchange:

- SPACKlick 11:04, 2 April 2015.

- 87.81.147.76 13:59, 2 April 2015.

- SPACKlick 14:07, 2 April 2015.

- 87.81.147.76 15:44, 2 April 2015.

Points 4 and 5
These can be taken together.

SPACKlick believes that a picture of an apple can be an illustration of an orange:

- SPACKlick 15:23, 10 April 2015.

- 87.81.147.76 - 12:05, 14 April 2015.

- 87.81.147.76 12:26, 14 April 2015.

Then the argument becomes incomprehensible:

- SPACKlick 12:24, 15 April 2015.

- 87.81.147.76 12:33, 15 April 2015. – SPACKlick 12:40, 15 April 2015.

Points 6 and 7
These can be taken together. They are covered in the ES in the portion beginning "An editor comments" and ending "removed him from her watchlist."

Point 8
Here is a list of the edits adding the picture to Islamic calendar by AstroLynx (A), CambridgeBayWeather (C), NeilN (N) and SPACKlick (S). Where a sourced image caption is removed and replaced by an unsourced image caption the entry is in bold. Although the picture was used from February 2008 the claim that it was Muhammad prohibiting intercalation was not added until April 2009.

2008 - April 17A, June 9A, November 12 (Euryalus - possible conflict of interest here).

2009 - July 20A, Oct. 30N, Dec. 7A, Dec. 18N.

2010 - Mar. 22N, Apr. 4N, Apr. 14A, Apr. 21N, Apr. 24N, May 21N, June 14A, Aug. 14A, Aug. 15 (Doug Weller, who not only added the picture but also semi - protected the page - possible conflict of interest here), Nov. 16A, Dec. 13A.

2011 - Jan. 25A, Apr. 24N, May 1N, May 13N, May 27N, June 19C, June 30A (2 reversions), July 25C, July 27A, July 28A, Aug. 25A, Aug. 29C, Sept. 5A, Sept. 9A (3 reversions). AstroLynx couldn't revert any more because of 3RR so it was left to CambridgeBayWeather to do the fourth reversion on 11 Sept. Oct. 11A, Oct. 14A (2 reversions), Oct. 15C, Oct. 17A, Oct. 18A (2 reversions), Oct. 31A, Dec. 9A.

2012 - Jan. 9A, Jan. 23A, Jan. 25C, Mar. 12A, July 9N. On 10 July Wiqi55 amended the caption under edit summary most commonly accepted theory does not link it to intercalation. NeilN reverted the same day. July 24A, Aug. 20A, Sept. 12A, Sept. 17C, Oct. 19A, Oct. 30A, Nov. 12A, Nov. 17C, Nov. 24C, Nov. 30A, Dec. 17A.

2013 - Jan. 5C, Jan. 22A, Feb. 3C, Mar. 4C, Apr. 28C, May 2C, May 28C, Nov. 9N (2 reversions).

2014 - Jan. 11N, Mar. 6C, Mar. 17N, July 28A, Aug. 20N, Sept. 26N, Oct. 15N, Oct. 15A, Oct. 15N, Oct. 24N, Nov. 19N.

2015 - Jan. 21N, Mar. 22A, Mar. 23A, Mar. 23N, Mar. 23N (describing the addition of sources as "pointy"). On 24 March CambridgeBayWeather semi - protected the page. Apr. 9N, Apr. 9S, Apr. 13A, Apr. 13S, July 16A (2 reverts).

Point 9
The warning was delivered by 87.81.147.76 at 18:10, 12 April 2015 and repeated at 10:47, 13 April. SPACKlick acknowledged at 18:12, 12 April.

The cover - up
AstroLynx claimed (Talk:Islamic calendar 15:09, 31 January 2015) that the Farewell Sermon was unique among Muhammad's homilies in that nobody knows how and where it was delivered. This lie was exposed by 86.145.48.124 at 10:29, 23 July. The post was removed four minutes later by Future Perfect at Sunrise, who went on to block half a million people for Long - term abuse although no LTA report has been filed. Nineteen minutes later Mr. Stradivarius semi - protected the page. Both the article and the talk page remain semi - protected.

Third party observation
There seems to be a polarisation into two camps - QuackGuru and his supporters and SPACKlick and his supporters. It's not difficult to see which camp S Marshall falls into. SPACKlick's camp don't want his dirty linen to be washed in public but that would appear to be unfair to QuackGuru. I'm impressed by the industrious way Quack works, and I think sanctioning him would be a mistake. Within the past few days we've had the 2015 ASH survey and the government report saying e - cigarettes are 95% less harmful than combustible ones. We need Quack on hand at this time.

Addendum to proposed finding of fact
10. SPACKlick is not here to build an encyclopaedia in a collegial manner. He is here to trick other editors into saying they agree with him.

He behaves like the confidence trickster who posed as a delivery man to get an elderly householder to sign a "receipt" which was actually a folded over Land Registry transfer document.

Supplementary information:

- SPACKlick 15:38, 13 April 2015. - 87.81.147.76 16:56, 13 April 2015. - SPACKlick 18:11, 13 April 2015. - 87.81.147.76 18:48, 13 April 2015. - SPACKlick 18:51, 13 April 2015. - 87.81.147.76 19:04, 13 April 2015. - SPACKlick 19:07, 13 April 2015.

Irrelevant material
Can the irrelevant material from SPACKlick's fan club be removed please? It's got nothing to do with electronic cigarettes. The page should also be semi-protected.— S Marshall T/C 16:55, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Timetable
I would like to ask if we can extend the deadline for sitting arbs but not for case parties or onlookers. With the evidence phase, about half the evidence by wordcount was submitted in the last few hours, which I found frustrating my experience was that others had the chance to respond to me, but I had no chance to respond to them. It also mildly screwed up the material I had prepared for the workshop phase. (Somewhere in all that mass of text, someone did produce a relevant diff from after the discretionary sanctions were enacted, but I missed this diff in my anxiousness to get my workshop material onto the table with plenty of discussion time in hand. I've had to partly retract one of my proposals as a result.) So for this phase, I would be grateful for some discussion time after the other participants have made their submissions, and an extra week works well for me.— S Marshall  T/C 15:02, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

General frustrations with this process
I'm frustrated by who's come here to discuss, and what issues they're bringing up. Yobol and Jytdog have been almost completely inactive on electronic cigarette for at least six months. I'd tend to connect Jytdog's presence here with his long history of showing up on AN/I and other places to protect QuackGuru, rather than with any concern about what's happening in the topic area. My basic point in this workshop phase is the one I made right at the start: I agree that it's now been well-shown that there were historic problems with COI editors, advocacy including advocacy for pay, and off-wiki attacks. It's not been shown that any of these are recent (i.e. post-dating the imposition of general sanctions on 1 April 2015). I feel that what's needed is a solution to the problems the article has now, but I'm constantly countered by allegations and evidence about what happened last year. What I don't know is whether Arbcom agrees with me. Arbcom members may feel that the historic problems are just as concerning as the current ones, in which case I need to accept this and move on to other topics. In this whole protracted "evidence" period there's been little commentary from Arbcom (on this point which is of interest to me personally, or anything else, actually). So what we're getting is a massive sprawl of largely unstructured discussion where each side repeats what it feels are its best points again and again, with no referee to decide who's right and progress to the next stage. And most of the named parties in the case (as opposed to the self-selected ones) are not participating here; if they show up in the last few hours to produce reams of text again, would that be considered a normal and fair way to behave? I'm concerned that I may have made a tactical mistake by showing my hand early.— S Marshall T/C 09:54, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I do not have a long history of showing up to protect Quackguru. I often criticize him, as I have here.  Please strike or support with a boatload (that is a very strong claim) of diffs. Thanks.   Jytdog (talk) 10:08, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Are you finding it frustrating to have to deal with innuendo without diffs? Because so am I.— S Marshall  T/C 10:25, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I've now struck my claim that isn't supported by diffs,, and I invite you to go through the whole workshop page striking all of yours.— S Marshall T/C 19:50, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * What in particular are you concerned about, that I have written? thx Jytdog (talk) 21:12, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * 1 ("Underlying disease of advocacy editing"); 2 (QuackGuru is a white blood corpuscle, apparently); 3 ("advocates ... are downplaying the mainstream medical/scientific view in a sustained way"); 4 (I'm "ducking the issue" by asking you to provide a diff showing this "constant stream of inexperienced advocates all pushing one POV"). I could go on and on. In fact, I think I will.  5 (One-true-wayism, one single mainstream point of view).  6 ("the current/future realities that prov-vaping activist editors are going to keep coming and coming and coming").  All this, and not a single diff from you anywhere in sight.  You're building this whole edifice on diffs from before the discretionary sanctions were enacted provided by CFCF.  An edifice of special pleading that would affect the editors who disagree with you, but not the ones who agree with you.— S Marshall  T/C 21:43, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * My goodness, this topic really is toxic. I'll strike the "ducking" statement that I made about you, which is the parallel to what I requested of you.  Jytdog (talk) 22:02, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Just to be clear, you're sticking by all the other things you've said today? That bit where you accused Johnbod of misrepresenting the sources and called him an advocate, in bold text, in the middle of an arbcom proceeding: you're happy to leave that un-struck?— S Marshall  T/C 23:53, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * yep. that is a tendentious reading of that source. i gave him a chance to back off it and acknowledge that he is pushing the surface meaning of that text very hard, and he didn't. That is what advocates do. ( i was looking for him to say something reasonable that acknowledged the difficulty of his reading, and he didn't/couldn't). Please note that I am not calling for any action against him, but that is the kind of behavior that would "count" if my recommendations go through, and I think it is clear to any dispassionate observer.  Jytdog (talk) 00:59, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Proposal to close
Nobody from Arbcom is showing any interest in this case and all the suggested deadlines for the end of the workshop phase have passed without comment. This is clearly too trivial, too boring or too hard to deal with. Let's close it and move on.— S Marshall T/C 07:37, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Could one of the clerks confirm whether arbs are looking/have looked/will be looking at this case? I've sort of been assuming they're busy with another case but it has been a long time with no comment.SPACKlick (talk) 09:03, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll ping the arbs privately on their mailing list. Lankiveil (speak to me) 10:44, 8 September 2015 (UTC).
 * I've just now received instructions to close the workshop. Thanks for your patience through the delay.  Lankiveil (speak to me) 12:20, 8 September 2015 (UTC).

Workshop timetable
Subject to other drafter's views, I'd like to post some PD options in the workshop and collect opinions on them. However this would take a few days to put together.

How does everyone feel about keeping the workshop open an extra week? -- Euryalus (talk) 12:44, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
 * We seem to be doing this. What is the new closing date? Johnbod (talk) 13:00, 27 August 2015 (UTC)


 * The drafting arbs have advised us clerks not to close the workshop at this point. I can't give you a definitive date right now as to when it'll close.  Lankiveil (speak to me) 23:09, 27 August 2015 (UTC).


 * Sorry for delayed response, am seeking views on a new closing date now. I think the extension was worthwhile, but coming close to calling time. -- Euryalus (talk) 03:53, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I think this might close soon, however, there have been very few comments by arbitrators.--Müdigkeit (talk) 20:11, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I reckon members of Arbcom & Clerks have been busy with orangemoody. Jytdog (talk) 12:34, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * We clerks are just as eager as anyone for this case to move forward, but we don't really have the ability to hurry stuff up on our own; that's down to the arbitrators. Paging User:Euryalus to see if there's any update on a possible closing date.  Lankiveil (speak to me) 23:30, 2 September 2015 (UTC).
 * Been a busy time for a few reasons, but please close the workshop at your leisure. I am finding the workshop phases in arb cases to be disappointingly under-utilised by all sides, including the committee. This one is not as bad as some (from memory one case earlier this year had no substantive comments at all), but this should be as or more busy than /Evidence. Anyway, thanks everyone for the comments and suggestions, they will all be considered in preparing the PD. -- Euryalus (talk) 12:01, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Workshop timetable
Personally I am a bit confused by this part of the process and would welcome extra time to be able to comment and possibly actively contribute.Levelledout (talk) 17:09, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
 * (Belatedly) Done. -- Euryalus (talk) 03:54, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

QuackGuru
I think the Workshop can remain open until September 5, 2015 for this complicated case. Keeping the workshop open an extra week is not long enough IMO. QuackGuru ( talk ) 22:28, 25 August 2015 (UTC)