Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Media Viewer RfC/Workshop

Case schedule updates

 * Noting here that I've asked the clerks to extend the workshop closing date to the end of this coming weekend (3 August) so there is more time for proposals to be made and discussed here (I left a similar note on the evidence talk page). The current plan is to have at least some parts of a draft proposed decision up on the workshop for public comments by Friday, and then make any changes needed and move to voting after the weekend. I'll post another update if things slip from that schedule. Carcharoth (talk) 23:06, 28 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Minor update: the initial draft of the proposed decision is nearly complete. I intend to put portions of it up on the workshop for public comment on Saturday morning evening. I'm also going to be around most of the weekend to comment on and incorporate aspects of the proposals made by others on the workshop, as well as respond to thoughts on the draft. If anyone has proposals to put up on the workshop page, it would be best to get them up as soon as possible over this weekend. Carcharoth (talk) 22:21, 1 August 2014 (UTC) Draft is done but won't be up until later, apologies for anyone waiting. Carcharoth (talk) 12:49, 2 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Principles now up. Draft findings have been done and are being reviewed before being published on the workshop. Remedies being drafted. I am now going to spend a couple of hours commenting on the workshop proposals that have already been made, and responding to some of the evidence submissions. Carcharoth (talk) 17:06, 2 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Another update: the draft findings are now up on the workshop. There will need to be time to discuss these, as well as finalise the drafting of the remedies (there won't be that many of these), and incorporate some of the better suggestions made so far on the workshop. To allow time for this, it has been decided to extend the case by another week to 11 August (when the proposed decision will be posted for voting). I will ask the clerks to change the dates. I am also going to ping those mentioned by name in the draft findings, so they will have the opportunity to comment, plus I will ask the clerks to leave a user talk page message as well: User:Fabrice Florin (WMF), User:Pine, User:Armbrust, User:MZMcBride, User:Peteforsyth, User:Eloquence, User:28bytes. Carcharoth (talk) 01:50, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The extra time is also justified because many interested participants, and several of the arbitrators, are at Wikimania this week. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:01, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the ping. --MZMcBride (talk) 02:39, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, thank you Carcharoth and Newyorkbrad for giving us time to review the workshop proposals and making an allowance for Wikimania. --Pine✉ 19:33, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Thoughts on workshop
There is a 'General discussion' section on the workshop where this note should probably go (and I will add a note there pointing out this section), but at the risk of initiating a long and messy threaded discussion, I'm putting some notes here. Firstly, I'd like to thank everyone who has commented so far at the workshop phase, the comments have been extremely useful and I'm hoping to see yet more before the workshop phase ends. Apologies for not having had time so far this week to respond. I've read every comment made so far, and there are a number of changes and additions that will likely be made in response to the discussion here. What would help most is if people actually drafted on the workshop page their own suggestions for principles and findings based on what they have said here. I have a number in mind that I will list here, but brief additional thoughts here on the overall balance of the draft and what most needs to be added or changed (and what is good and does not need changing) would help. Carcharoth (talk) 06:45, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Re: transferring stuff from here to the workshop page, I'd prefer to wait and see what happens with recent conflicts here and at de.wp (as you note below). That probably means I'll miss deadlines, but I just don't have the time to spare to work on something when my suggestions might turn out not to be relevant. - Dank (push to talk) 15:30, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Changes/additions to principles

 * The changes/additions I have in mind so far are: (i) Principle on consensus (discussions) and metrics (opt-in/opt-out rates). (ii) Principle on en-WP discussions/decisions (local) and WMF Engineering and Product Development decisions (local and global). (iii) Principle on local discussions (en-WP) and Wikimedia-wide discussions (global). Carcharoth (talk) 06:45, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Changes/additions to findings

 * There are two additional findings I have in mind so far are: (i) a finding relating to participation levels at the RfC compared to other similar RfCs (see here). (ii) a background finding giving some of the recent historical context (see here). Carcharoth (talk) 06:45, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

General comments
Adding in a section for general comments. As I said above, please do keep these additional thoughts as brief as possible. This is intended to accommodate brief statements by individuals to be read by the drafters before writing up the final draft to take to voting. Please don't engage here in extensive threaded discussion. Carcharoth (talk) 06:45, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Postponement of proposed decision
Posting a brief note here to say that the proposed decision won't be posted on 11 August, partly because I underestimated the amount of time available to work on it while attending Wikimania, and partly because of developments elsewhere (the most relevant links are:, , , , , ). Please don't discuss those developments here. I'll try and get an update on the schedule out by tomorrow. Carcharoth (talk) 00:13, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * If expressions of sympathy are okay ... I'm sorry, about a lot of things. - Dank (push to talk) 14:58, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * There are also a few sections of discussion regarding the latest developments at User talk:Jimbo Wales. Monty  845  21:16, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I had a dream this case would be
 * So different from this hell we're living
 * So different now from what it seemed
 * Now Erik has killed the dream I dreamed
 * 2601:7:1980:BF6:7440:4B16:768B:EE69 (talk) 20:10, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

—Neotarf (talk) 13:07, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Further postponement
Just a brief note here to say that due to ongoing developments and discussions (mainly on meta at Lila Tretikov's talk page and at the [now closed] poll on the German Wikipedia and on the wikimedia-l mailing list), we (the English Wikipedia ArbCom) are considering how best to proceed at this point. A proposed decision against this fast-moving background is not easy (and may no longer be desirable) and in any case is not going to come any time soon. We are aware of the note left by Philippe Beaudette about staff accounts and we are aware of the self-requested removal of local administrator rights by Erik Moeller. I would provide links to all the above, but am a bit short of time right now. We hope to have a formal update/motion by the end of the weekend. Carcharoth (talk) 22:52, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Update: A motion to suspend the case has been proposed: see Arbitration/Requests/Case/Media Viewer RfC/Proposed decision. Please don't discuss this here, but leave comments at the PD talk page. Thanks. Carcharoth (talk) 01:00, 25 August 2014 (UTC)