Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/CheckUser and Oversight/August 2008 appointments

Shortlist location
Where will this shortlist appear? Here? Could you note that so we know to watchlist this page? Thanks.--chaser (away) - talk 22:01, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I would imagine so, yes. This seems like a sensible place to put it. --Deskana (talk) 22:02, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Page location
This page sort of seems to be 'floating' in the projectspace. Can it be moved to Arbitration Committee/CheckUser appointments August 2008 or something, please? --MZMcBride (talk) 00:19, 23 August 2008 (UTC)


 * You also ought to move the older announcements from June/July, I think they have the same issue.  MBisanz  talk 02:01, 23 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Except that this isn't related to the Arbitration Committee (other than that we dole it out); if anything, it'd go somewhere like CheckUser/Appointments/August 2008, but that'd be yucky.
 * James F. (talk) 09:15, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Number of CheckUser
Does ArbCom looking for a specific number of CheckUser? Or no upper/lower limit?  OhanaUnited Talk page  05:28, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * No particular limit; right now we're looking in the 4-5 range. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 21:07, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Criteria
Why does the notice list criteria that does not appear on the WP:Checkuser page or the subpage CheckUser/Appointments? --167.181.12.95 (talk) 20:40, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The only criterion not listed at the Wikimedia (meta) page is that the applicant must be an active administrator on English Wikipedia. The other criteria (age 18+, an adult in the place of residence, and willing to identify to the Foundation) are overarching requirements that apply to all projects. Is there really a concern here? Risker (talk) 20:48, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Any sign?
Any sign of this short list then?  Majorly  talk  01:32, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * We've got a long long list, so the short list takes more time to determine. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 04:14, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Good luck sorting, I used to have to shortlist people for a living and it's soul-destroying... Chase me ladies, I&#39;m the Cavalry (talk) 23:55, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yay! At least one member of the community who seems to believe we have souls left to destroy! --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 00:05, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * What you say!! This is an outrage! We must hunt down these free-minded souls and assimilate them into The Cabal™ before it is too late. What are you standing around here for??! MOVE!!!!! J.delanoy gabs adds  06:22, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I did used to get paid for shortlisting people you know. Would you like me to have a word with Jimbo? Money is a good substitute for a soul... Chase me ladies, I&#39;m the Cavalry (talk) 18:10, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, I've indicated (on the mailing list) my 3-4 that I would be interested in, but nobody else seems to want to bite yet. I suppose I could get a headstart and start soliciting submissions right now, but that would give away my endorsements wouldn't it?  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket ) 07:31, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Any sign...?
Thanks for the specific time scale, Brad: here's hoping your anticipations sticks! Anthøny  ✉  17:20, 17 September 2008 (UTC) In the meantime, it so happens that having a high profile --> political involvement seems to be held in high regard, although anyone who deliberately starts going for publicity stunts isn't going to go down very well with me.  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket ) 06:34, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * (Mark two.) Is the shortlist presently forthcoming, or shall we be waiting for a while yet? Anthøny   ✉  16:02, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "Presently" is a notoriously ambiguous word, but I anticipate a posting in the next couple of days. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:58, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Not any more ambigious than any of its synonyms. Such is the game-able nature of the English language.
 * You really would think a statement along the lines of "we like active vocal users" does not need the qualifier "do not set the Wiki on fire to show how vocal you are". heh.  MBisanz  talk 09:01, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Huh
Maybe "Four candidates for four or five positions? What feedback are you really looking for?" is the question pair to ask. Wily D 00:30, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * This is more in the nature of a final check on the conclusions we reached in discussion. We aren't mentioning further users in excess of the number that might reasonably be needed, no matter how good and credible they may be. (And we have some very good other candidates, it should be said.) If we need to consider others, at that time we will.


 * If we decide to appoint additional checkusers in the months ahead, then we have that knowledge, and we may solicit input at that time on the user/s we consider most likely, as a final check then, too. The aim of this is simply a final check additional to all previous inquiries, whether anything might be raised which is important, and we hadn't known of. For all four named users, out of respect and due diligence (given the size of the community) we wish to check "in case".


 * So the feedback sought is basically -- is there any good reason known by the community, why any of these may not be viable? If so we would like to be aware. If there is mostly silence... or insightful reasons why they would work out okay... or the only issues raised are matters we had already known of and considered, or analyses that roughly match our own... then that is reassuring that we aren't missing anything important -- and that is what we want to finally check.


 * FT2 (Talk 01:05, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * So, basically, it's a "Speak now, or forever hold your peace" type of thing? J.delanoy gabs adds  06:11, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Succinctly put. FT2 (Talk 08:37, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * We will seriously consider all of the input that we get. But it is true that we would not have put anyone on the shortlist that we would not be comfortable in appointing. --bainer (talk) 08:41, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

All four of them are male :( :( What a pity. While all four are excellent choices - all of them - well ..... y'know :/ - A l is o n  ❤ 05:58, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think anyone thought in terms of gender. It never came up, and probably rightly so. FT2 (Talk 08:36, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * However, in this case, one leading candidate informed us that she would be too busy with school this year to be able to spend the time with regular Wikipedia work, much less checkuser. Possibly an advantage to our slow process here -- if we'd put the candidates up before the start of the school year, she might not have known how busy she'd be! --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 15:13, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I have no particular objection to the format or anything, it's just not what we I was lead to believe would be the case. Obviously, a wider view of the candidates is a plus, since the ArbCom can't be expected to investigate them to infinite depth.  Just not the way I'd use the word shortlist, is all. Wily D  11:59, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I think in the end, consensus was that for a first time, some arbitrators want to see how this works in practice and if it does produce as hoped. That said, there's a difference with appointing a larger number - if there were some unexpected genuine matter that came up, we might appoint 3 or even 2, and then consider further, ask for input on others, see how it looks in a few weeks's time, etc. (Ie, there's room in case of serious issues, that might not exist if just 1 or 2 appointments were intended.)


 * As a proponent of a longer shortlist, I hope that events prove this is helpful and that they support a repeat, possibly with more names, when future appointments are to be considered. That's my own personal view however. FT2 (Talk 14:07, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I think WilyD is just saying the term "shortlist" traditionally (to him, and to me, at least) means you narrow down a list of candidates, which will then be looked at in more detail and ultimately narrowed down some more before a final choice is made. I don't think he's commenting on whether 4 positions is a large or small number, just that this is more like a proposed final decision, rather than a shortlist. A shortlist would have been more like "here are 8 to 10 candidates we're considering, please provide feedback and we will narrow it down to 4 or 5". I sort of thought that was how it was going to work too, but I'm not sure where I got that idea, and I have no real objection to doing it this way. Just a terminology quibble, I think. He will hopefully correct me if I'm wrong. --barneca (talk) 14:23, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Err, that's correct, yes. Typically I expect a "shortlist" to have 2-4X the number of people to actually be appointed. Vetting candidates is somewhat different - it's not a big deal or anything, just a surprise. Wily D  14:31, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * That's kind of what I was expecting too, Wily... It wasn't just you :) SQL Query me!  08:02, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I also share similar feelings. They mentioned they are looking for 4 to 5 in above section and now we see this "shortlist" composed of 4 people. Coincidence?  OhanaUnited Talk page  12:52, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Indeed. The list posted on the project page attached to this discussion seems to me more a final notification of who will be appointed (without that tone of finality, admittedly), as opposed to a shortlist. Better late than never, I suppose. Anthøny   ✉  15:53, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Here's what happened. We knew a number of weeks ago that we wanted to create 4-5 new checkusers. We put together a list of candidates that seemed like they'd be good choices; I put each through a short vetting process, which you can see at User:Jpgordon/Checkuser questionnaire. Then someone pointed out to me that the committee had earlier discussed (and more or less committed to) a more open process of checkuser selection. The "short list" language was entirely mine, and I apologize for the confusion; essentially, what we've just seen is a dry run for next time there's a call for new checkusers. The process in the future will be clearer; we'll call for candidates (and of course recycle the ones we've already received), we'll do background vetting in private, and then we'll present possibly a longer list -- a real shortlist -- to the community for confidential commentary. There's some disagreement within the Committee as to whether we should have put out eight or nine names this time; the voice of expedience prevailed (me, this time), but we might want some more input in that regard. Should we put up eight qualified names knowing there are only four slots, and knowing that it's not a vote or a popularity contest? Or should we put forth the ones we've decided we like best, and only put up more names if we receive damning information from the community on one or more of the prospects? --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 20:40, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, I think this was for the best. There was way less drama then what could have been expected by a larger list, of potentially or obviously undesirable candidates.  Syn  ergy 05:27, 27 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Wait, wait. If I understand your sequence of events right, you (a) had a list, then (b) checked them out, (c) called for candidates?  That wasn't transparency, that was transparency pantomime!  Why go through the motions at all?  &mdash; Coren (talk) 15:14, 27 September 2008 (UTC)


 * CheckUser appointments is one of those permanent background issues. The current round has been undergoing discussion at various stages since February or so. The longlist was a combination of self-nominees from August, names that the Committee had in consideration itself and names that had been recommended to us from various people. --bainer (talk) 16:15, 27 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Jpgordon and Bainer have described different aspects of it pretty well. Checkuser is one of the tasks that as a committee, we see as very serious. A huge amount of care goes into it, and process changes are made with caution to prevent undermining its integrity. Historically, the committee has had a good sense who might be good hands for custodianship of this privacy breaching function, and following discussion, when a checkuser appointment was truly needed, that has been how the decision was made. Providing an opportunity to express an interest is one way to improve the process. Of course we already had our own shortlist, and as we do our work carefully, that shortlist was a strong one, and contained several very good candidates. The inquiry for interest in August added a number of other names, some known, some not, and some also very strong. To prevent manipulation and influencing, we asked those interested to submit their name and nothing more, by email only, and we asked the community not to discuss these. Without drama, it achieved its intended goal.  Those we sought information on included a mix of three from our initial shortlist, one from the communal inquiry. This is quite a vindication of our prior process, in that even after adding the new expressions of interest and considerable investigation on a completely equal basis, the four users we felt most likely to be best appointees still included three from the original names we had thought of. At least four other candidates from our initial list (most of whom also self-nominated) would still rate very highly even after considering all new names received, as would some three or four self-submitted names. In other words, the opening for self-nomination resulted in emails which included a number of good admins, but of those who we felt most credible for checkuser after our own checks, over 2/3 (and 3 of the most likely 4) were in fact already known via internal discussion and private individual inquiries under the previous process.  There was disagreement whether to seek input on a smaller number or a slightly larger number. Good reasons exist for both. A compromise was reached to seek agreement on a smaller number of the most likely candidates, with the understanding that this did not preclude a second round or further appointments in a month if needed. Our intent was to identify the best for the role whether known to us or not. As Jpgordon says, "the voice of expedience" prevailed; we put up the first four only, mainly to see what caliber of input we would obtain, and because we wanted to go cautiously. As Bainer says checkuser is under consideration in the background several times a year, and as Jpgordon says, this has been a first trial of this approach. His comment contains a lot of the detail, worth re-reading. FT2 (Talk 23:59, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * FT2, that three of the four were on the committee's initial internal shortlist is confirmation of the Committee's good sense about these candidates only to the extent that the Committee can independently confirm its own good sense. You all usually make good decisions, but this is a limited vindication of your prior process.--chaser - t 02:18, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * And that process had a significant danger of selection bias; by having a preexisting list there is the unavoidable tendency of inertia in favor of those already on the list. Mind you, I have no objection to the process itself&mdash; selection of checkusers is left to the good judgment of the arbitrators for good reason&mdash; but I fear that this ended up being much ado about nothing.  &mdash; Coren (talk) 03:37, 29 September 2008 (UTC)


 * It really appears to me, that at this point, the assignment of permissions needs to be passed back to the community. I've looked, and, looked, but, I don't see prior to the announcement of the "shortlist" any indication, that the committee had it's own little 'internal list', from which it actually chose from. I've never been anything but supportive of the committee, but, these kinds of games don't sit well with me. If you're going to select checkusers on your own, do that. If you're going to ask the community for volunteers, and choose from those, do that. Don't say you're going to do one, then go and do the other. SQL Query me!  07:57, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I concur. They said they will generate a shortlist, but we didn't know they already had a shortlist ready even prior to the announcements seeking applicants.  OhanaUnited Talk page  12:34, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, FT2 and I picked out a few more folks who applied for whom we wanted to solicit feedback, but most of the others didn't weren't interested to the people they already had in mind. Personally I think CU nominations by AC tend to be more dependent on someone being more high profile ("do I recognise this person's name?") than eg, the ArbCom elections, which I think makes it a bit more inbred. Personally, I think it would also encourage people to engage in publicity stunts instead of real work, mainly by making comments all over the place on ANI, a column on each RFARB, joining as many committees as possible without necessarily doing anything. This also promotes a tendency IMHO, for people to make lots of tautological or general truism type comments to get a high profile but without upsetting anyone. Personally I would take a very dim view of people engaging in "paper/plastic flunkey careerism" but I think for any prospective careerist, it's the most effective strategy on Wikipedia.  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket ) 01:56, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I suppose that at least explains why half of them are arbcom's own clerks. SQL Query me!  04:03, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Or in politically incorrect terms, it makes running for B'cratship and ArbComClerk in the near future a very attractive prospect. - Mailer Diablo 19:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Then again, I chose to decline all offers, and I was appointed a Clerk at the same time as Rlevse. It's not an "all clerks get +CU" arrangement; rather, it's simply that the Committee are very experienced and familiar with the clerks—it logically follows that they will look to them to assign sensitive permissions. If you were in daily contact with the Arbitrators, I feel sure the Committee would get a feel for whether you were suitable for the position. Anthøny   ✉  19:12, 4 October 2008 (UTC)


 * In fairness, I think this "internal shortlist" is more just the results of a brainstorming session on the mailing list, as opposed to a formal list of candidates they intend to appoint. Furthermore, I don't think the Committee took any such formal list, and then proceeded to say "hey, wait, let's see what the community thinks," and had us undertake a mickey mouse exercise; rather, they were simply scrapping their initial list and having the community suggest candidates instead. The references to the initial list are simply to note that the Committee's method of selecting CUs up until this point have been robust, at least from a comparison of this round's selections via Community vs. via Committee. Anthøny   ✉  18:10, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Clerkship or cratship - for me at least - was not an issue. My impressions on candidates were drawn from seasoned users and also from a lot of quiet impression gathering from January to date. By way of example, Rlevse gained his credibility from his great experience with sock puppet cases, his wide communal respect shown both as a crat and also by comments received upon detailed inquiry, and from his exceptional help for over two months solid at the heart of the Poetlister case, possibly one of the most sensitive sock cases ever and with capacity for the collated non-privacy-policy data to destroy someone's life. He was entrusted on Poetlister because even before then, his reputation was such as to support him as a credible "non arbcom" sounding board on the handling and non-private evidence of this most sensitive matter. It was those matters, and not any "role" (crat, clerk) he might have done, which counted. Users hoping for an easy "in" method are likely to be very disappointed. Of our likely next 6 - 7 this time around, not one was either a crat, nor a "clerk", nor had any prior involvement with Arbcom at all.


 * Placing a "top four" was not easy. There was considerable discussion when it came down to the final 6 - 8. I don't plan to detail the decisions but that may give some indication the caliber we try to assess. They include skilled technical users, well known vandalism and sock fighters, and users with reputations for heavy duty wiki-process. The list included some with past controversies, some with none; some with multiple FACs and some who never had even one; some with WR accounts, some who never would. We had no fixed pre-decision. We looked in each case amongst the credible candidates we have today, for the most safe, reliable, and competent pairs of enduring hands we could, and probably any of our top 8 could have done the job well. For more details how the process worked from the beginning, which might help, see below. FT2 (Talk 03:24, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Community Input
I don't wish to send any e-mails out, so let me begin with an apology for ignoring that particular venue. I know that it was, in all probability (or just possibly, since I haven't seen it stated), intended that there not be a full discussion on the candidates themselves so I will limit my statement. Let me just say, that this short list includes what I believe to be fine candidates for checkuser. I would also like to say that I'm glad that arb com has decided to make a small portion of this process transparent.  Syn  ergy 04:09, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "Decided to make a small portion of this process transparent". Did I read it correctly that it says a small portion? When will the "big portion" of transparency come? Does that mean it'll never be a transparent process?  OhanaUnited Talk page  16:14, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
 * See the bainers comments above.  Syn  ergy 18:18, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Detail on process
In conjunction with the announcement, some information on the decision process itself. (And not in any way part of the formal announcement.)

In June 2008, we posted as follows on the process:


 * "It should be clarified that at any time, Checkuser appointments are the user(s) we feel most likely to be best for the flag. There is no "queue" and no "getting there early", and there is no "precedence" or "preferred users". It is purely done on the basis of ab initio [=from the beginning] and intense discussion at the time."


 * "While we have a list based on past inquiries by users, and our own existing discussions, there are already a few more credible, seasoned names than appointments (around 10), and further names of comparable credibility that meet the appropriate standard will be considered completely on a par. The strongest candidates from the resulting list will be taken further."

In June, we had a shortlist of some 10 based on past discussion and emails. These dated back in some cases, to requests that had been received and checked out since December, and our own existing research on past occasions. A number of users indicated an interest in June, others in our request in August, giving rise to around 40 names for consideration in total. The full list was published to the sitting arbitrators only, by Deskana, two days after the window closed, on August 30, and all on it were at that point treated completely equally, no matter how their names had originally been submitted.

Individual arbitrators checked in depth as they felt necessary, almost every reasonably checkable matter and talked with a wide range of very credible users on multiple projects. A number of users became aware they were being considered because of such checking. Around 1/2 of the users were not discussed because it was obvious without discussion that they would not ultimately place in any shortlist of 4-6 final candidates, and because nobody opined that they might. Some 12 names came to the fore. Around 2/3 of these had also come to the fore in prior discussion, about 1/3 were "new". A shortlist of some 5 - 6 rapidly emerged, one of whom declined due to pressure of "real world" matters, leading to 4 users being considered as the list was whittled down. Following discussion whether a longer shortlist should or should not be presented this time, these were the four users named to the community as candidates on September 24.

The sitting arbitrators reviewed all input submitted by users. They were posted by Thebainer in two batches a few days apart, rather than being forwarded individually, which prevented "early feedback" influencing the matter. Only one substantive issue about a user was raised (separately by two users), but this was on a point already considered carefully. None the less that user was re-checked in detail, and a further poll taken on that specific aspect and a related point. The consensus stood as previously, with significant endorsement to keep that user in the final poll, and no objections. A few other users submitted comments related to one user only, or noted that they didn't know one or more candidates; this is useful to know, however it is not necessarily a barrier. Our own checking took that into account and we specifically discussed this aspect. Effectively, these aside, all input was positive.

Following this, a final concluding poll was held. This also included a second recheck of the consensus on the matter above; the decision was re-endorsed a second time.

In the final "aye or nay" vote, the decision was unanimous. Full and formal endorsement of each of the four was received from eight nine arbitrators, three two others did not vote on the final formal poll but had clearly voted to endorse (or posted implying support) of these users during discussions (one of these endorsed on return from absence), one arbitrator did not formally vote but implied they viewed it as passing by consensus, and one had indicated support earlier but was absent for the final poll.

It is my hope that reporting in detail this way may give some indication of the extent of care taken over the appointments and some of the work involved in picking the community's checkusers. Of necessity this description is not exact, and to preserve the integrity of the process a number of details of the checking are omitted. It is our hope that the new checkusers will work out well, and the impact of their work will be felt for the good, by the community.

FT2 (Talk 03:27, 6 October 2008 (UTC)