Wikipedia talk:Article titles/Archive 44

Question about article title
I was patrolling new pages and stumbled upon this one: Cradling (Art Restoration). I know that the part in parentheses shouldn't be capitalized, but I have a problem deciding where should this page be moved: Or maybe there's some other convention to name articles from this field? I usually crate music-related articles and I'm familiar with their naming rules, but here I'm at a loss. I would appreciate your help. —  Ma y ast  ( talk ) 12:38, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * "Cradling (art restoration)"?
 * "Cradling (art restoration technique)"?
 * "Cradling (technique)"?
 * Personally, I think they're probably all okay - there aren't many articles in Category:Art conservation and restoration, so there probably isn't a precedent to follow for consistency. I'd be inclined just to drop the uppercase for now, and maybe something will present itself further down the line.  --Rob Sinden (talk) 13:41, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for help, I followed your advice :) —  Ma y ast  ( talk ) 14:15, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Preparation for another discussion: Article titles for transgender people
Hello everyone -- if you look a few sections above you will see that I previously proposed a clarification of the policy on article titles for transgender people. That discussion took place in the midst of a heated debate over what to call Private Manning (I use a neutral term here to avoid picking sides). That discussion was somewhat disorderly, a situation I would like to avoid for the next discussion. Following advice from the administrator (BD2412) who closed the Manning move request, I would like to re-open discussion in due time.

Before we begin another formal discussion, I would like for us to first lay out the terms of the discussion. I would like feedback on the following points (feel free to discuss others I hadn't considered):

1. Scope of discussion: Should the discussion cover only article titles for transgender people, or article titles for the names of all people, or name changes of all entities in general? Should the discussion cover name changes or all articles in general?

2. Discussion points: What points should we discuss? Within each point, which precise options should be available for people to !vote for? Here is a list of suggested discussion points:


 * Modifications to WP:COMMONNAME - only consider reliable sources
 * Avoid birth names: Should we amend WP:COMMONNAME to state that birth names are problematic in the case of name changes for transgender people?
 * More specifically, should we state that birth names "have problems" for the purpose of WP:COMMONNAME's "When there are several names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others"? (generalized from Cam94509)
 * Please note that it is all previous names that may be (usually are) problematic, not just "birth names". For example I've changed my name twice, and that is not uncommon. --Daira Hopwood ⚥ (talk) 02:39, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Name when notable: If the subject gains notability (widespread media coverage) only under one name, should that name continue to be used after a name change? (based on suggestion from Vegaswikian)
 * Only recent sources: Should we consider only post-announcement sources in the case of name changes?
 * More precisely, should the phrase "more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change" be changed to "one should consider only the name used in reliable sources published after the name change, and not consider those before the change"


 * Other considerations (not covered under WP:COMMONNAME) - consider more than reliable sources
 * Should we create a new section covering aspects separate from WP:COMMONNAME? (idea from 99.192.77.201)
 * Legal status: Should we consider the subject's legal name or legal / biological status? If so, how heavily should we weight such considerations? (FT2 mentioned this in previous discussion)
 * Subject's intentions: Should we consider the subject's intentions?
 * More precisely, should we change article titles only in the following situations: "if there is good evidence that the intention to change [publicly used? most commonly used?] name is a genuine and enduring one, and appears likely to be non-temporary." (FT2 mentioned this in previous discussion)
 * Subject's preferences: Should we consider the subject's preferences?
 * More precisely, should we add a statement to the policy explicitly clarifying that in cases of individuals announcing a name change, the individual him- or herself is the most reliable source and the final arbiter on the subject of the person's name." (generalized to all name changes from Dezastru's statement in the previous discussion)
 * Avoid offense: Should we avoid potentially offensive article titles?
 * More precisely, should we not use a given name if it reasonably possible for a group to be offended by that name, unless there is an overwhelmingly clear reason to use the potentially offensive name? (basic idea from Space simian)

3. Page layout: What should be the page layout of a discussion? Should we create a subpage? Should we create certain sub-sections, and if so, which ones?

I ask that we hammer out these procedural details before beginning a substantive policy discussion. This will ensure that we have an orderly discussion. Thank you. CaseyPenk (talk) 20:40, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Preparatory discussion

 * If you think this would result in an orderly discussion you are more of an optimist then I. One issue that you have not addressed is, if a person gains notability only under one name, should that name continue to be used after a name change?  Changing names is common in marriage.  So does the our precedent there offer any guidance for you?  For performers, we seem to chose the name of the moment since some seem to change on a regular basis. Vegaswikian (talk) 21:36, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I would very much like to see an option to vote for something that made it clear that, except in cases where it would be truly unreasonable, a trans persons preferred name would be preferred for titling Wikipedia articles about them over their birth name. I have no real strong feelings either way on the third one, and I think for the first one we should stick to discussing trans people, although discussing all name changes wouldn't be the end of the world. Cam94509 (talk) 21:49, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * At the very least this should be restricted to people although probably even more than that. There are all manner of factors with non-human cases that need to be considered separately, in particular national varieties of English, what actually is "an English name" when the new declared name in English is taken from another language, the subtleties of official naming policies where approaches vary wildly, and the inevitable politicisation attached to these name changes. There are enough issues relating to people alone without getting into Australian rocks, Indian cities, British shopping centres and all the rest. Timrollpickering (talk) 22:57, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hey. I'd like to clarify that I'm actually interested in discussing "Subject's prefrences", that is to say, whether the subject's PREFERENCES should be used. (Because that's what I think we should be using, if at all possible.) Names when notable is *not* what I'm interested in discussing. Cam94509 (talk) 00:24, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi Cam, sorry about that. I got your comment confused with Vegaswikian's comment. I'll make the correction in my proposal. CaseyPenk (talk) 00:29, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No problem. Cam94509 (talk) 00:38, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The discussion should deal only with transgender people who have changed their names. Name changes in those situations involve a unique set of issues that do not really apply to other kinds of name changes (such as people changing their names following marriage, or divorce; performers changing their names as a career move, or simply out of vanity; corporations changing their names to enhance their business prospects; or political entities such as cities or countries changing their names). Dezastru (talk) 02:04, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I think that name changes accompanying a religious conversion can present similar circumstances, and perhaps it could be said that all instances in which a person changes their name in a way that rejects their previous life and sets out on a new course could fall into this category. This differs from changing one's name because of marriage (which signifies embarking on a new life, but not necessarily a rejection of pre-marital life), or changing one's name on a whim, or for commercial purposes. However, I also would agree that our rules should provide for particular sensitivity to transgender name changes. bd2412  T 02:14, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The scope should be changing the titles of any article. Existing policy about article naming applies to all articles. It would be a mistake to decide to use different policies for different kinds of articles. I should note that so far as I have followed the Manning page title discussion (which is only a little), most of the discussion was not about what the criteria should be, but about whether the criteria was met. That is, most people agreed that the common name should be used, but disagreed about what the common name for Manning is. So discussion of just how the common name is determined seems to be more the specific issue than whether or not the title should be the common name. 99.192.68.167 (talk) 03:14, 2 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * "So discussion of just how the common name is determined seems to be more the specific issue than whether or not the title should be the common name." That's correct. We all agree to use WP:COMMONNAME to a greater or lesser extent, but WP:COMMONNAME itself is somewhat vague in these situations.
 * "It would be a mistake to decide to use different policies for different kinds of articles." As you may or may not already be aware, the policy (WP:COMMONNAME) does carve out an exception for name changes. So in that sense, the policy already does not apply to all articles, but rather to a subset of them. CaseyPenk (talk) 03:19, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * CaseyPenk, I see nowhere where the policy talks about name changes for people as separate from any other name changes. As such, there is only one policy for all types of articles, be they about people, places, things, events, or anything else. 99.192.68.167 (talk) 03:26, 2 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)


 * Yes, the name changes clause applies to any kind of article and not just people. My point is that the name change clause applies only to entities that change their names and not all articles. The subject of any article could in theory change its name, so yes, the name changes clause does apply to all articles in that sense, but in a practical sense only a minority of subjects will undergo name changes. It might be we're just debating semantics, in which case it would be fine to view it as applying to all articles or just a subset, as long as we agree on our interpretations of the name change clause. CaseyPenk (talk) 04:17, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * It sounds to me like we agree, so I guess that means we must be right! Yes, it is only a minority of articles, but many of them will be non-people articles. Films (like Star Wars), sporting events (like the Nokia Brier), stadiums (like Joe Robbie Stadium), countries (like Myanmar), and types of objects (like tidal waves) can all change names. Only a small minority will change names, but the same is true for people. 99.192.68.167 (talk) 04:32, 2 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)

Legal status, intentions, preferences

 * (ec) Addendum to my previous comment: As for the content of the discussion, none of legal status, subject's intentions, or subject's preferences should be part of the discussion since none of them have anything to do with determining what a person's common name is. 99.192.68.167 (talk) 03:21, 2 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * I disagree. When a person publicly announces a name change, and this name change is widely reported, this frequently begins the process of news outlets and other reliable sources using the new name. We can recognize the historical tendency of such widely reported new names to stick and be referenced (Muhammad Ali, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Chaz Bono, Metta World Peace) as a basis to tilt article titling towards the new name. bd2412  T 04:02, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The key phrases in what you just wrote are "and this name change is widely reported" and "begins the process". I agree with both of these, but point out that the announcement itself is not the issue in establishing a common name, but whether or not it is widely reported and used by news outlets and others. The mere fact alone that an announcement was made does nothing to shift a common name. 99.192.68.167 (talk) 04:11, 2 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * If Muhammad Ali had not made an announcement of the change of his name, then the ball would never have gotten rolling on reliable sources using it, so obviously the announcement itself does something. We can recognize the simple fact that most such announcements eventually yield common usage, and that forecasting against that actually predicts the less likely outcome. bd2412  T 14:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I think you have misunderstood my original point. When asking the question "What is this person's common name?" various things might count as an answer to that, but saying "it's their legal name" does not matter, since it might be (like for Sting) a legal name that no one uses. Saying "it's the name they prefer people use" does not matter, since the relevant question is what name is used, not what name does the person want us to use. Saying "it's the name the person intends to use and intends to make a legal name" does not matter for the same reasons. That announcements can result in changes of use by the media and the public is indisputable, but the announcement itself is no evidence that media and public use has changed, thus no evidence that the "common" name has actually changed. 99.192.77.201 (talk) 15:26, 2 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * My point, however, is that such an announcement almost always precipitates a change in actual usage. This is a fact that we can recognize when determining what constitutes a common name for purposes of an article title. bd2412  T 15:36, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Again, the key words are "almost always precipitates". If it does precipitate a change in actual use, then the change in actual use is what matters, not the announcement that caused it. If it does not precipitate a change in actual use, then the fact that is was announced also does not matter. To think that the announcement itself matters because of what is likely to follow from it is to violate WP:BALL. 99.192.77.201 (talk) 15:47, 2 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * The WP:BALL rolls both ways. If we presume that the announcement will not precipitate such a change, despite the common experience of this change occurring, then we are just as guilty of acting on a prediction. bd2412  T 16:09, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * No, it doesn't. It only would if I were saying that an announcement should be counted as evidence that a change will not take place. "If we presume that the announcement will not precipitate such a change...." That is not only not what I said, but would be an absurd thing to think. My position is explicitly to not predict one way or the other at all based on announcements. You say you want announcements to count for a change. That means you are suggesting something in conflict with WP:BALL, not me. 99.192.77.201 (talk) 16:19, 2 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)


 * 99.192.77.201, it sounds like you oppose the legal status, subject's intentions, and subject's preferences considerations. However, two questions: do you think we should still discuss those points, and do you have any other (alternative) points you would like to discuss? Or do you think the policy should remain exactly as it is? CaseyPenk (talk) 18:28, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Since I do not think that any of intentions, preferences, or legal names help answer the question "what is the person's common name" then I would say that they are not worth discussing. But if they are to be discussed, it should be made clear that the suggestions are to do something other than use the common name. A little bit higher up you suggested that moving away from WP:COMMONNAME was not what you were suggesting, but clarifying it might help. That seems good to me, which is why I mentioned the experts vs general public discussion at the top if this talk page. Knowing how to tell when a name change has become a new common name would help. It seems in the Manning case there was much discussion of which sources were using the old name and which the new with regard to whether the new name had become "common", and that is worth sorting out a bit more. I should add, it took a month after Metta World Peace changed his name from "Ron Artest" before that page moved. While there were editors who thought it should have moved sooner, it took a while for there to be a consensus about the name being "common". 99.192.77.201 (talk) 18:46, 2 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * Do you have any suggestions about where, if anywhere, considerations about intentions, preferences, and legal names could fit into the policy? Can you think of a name for a new section? Even if you don't agree with their inclusion, perhaps you have thoughts on what section they could be included under.
 * Also, could you clarify exactly what you mean by "worth sorting out a bit more"? What, specifically, should we sort out more? Should we clarify the bit about giving more weight to recent sources rather than to older ones? CaseyPenk (talk) 19:10, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "Can you think of a name for a new section?" They sound to me like "Replacements for COMMONNAME" or "Alternatives to COMMONNAME".
 * "recent sources rather than to older ones" That's important to discuss, but I was also thinking about something that goes beyond that. Suppose a person is VERY famous under one name, becomes less famous, and then switches names. What media there is left interested enough to still report on the person might all switch to the new name, yet to the vast majority of people the previous name is the one the person is known by. So it's not just comparing the media now to the media past, but also asking if we should be looking for measurements of how "common" a name is now other than what news reports say. 99.192.77.201 (talk) 19:25, 2 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * That is the Cat Stevens problem right in a nutshell - born Steven Demetre Georgiou, became famous as Cat Stevens, and then declined in fame and became Yusuf Islam. However, what about if the person announces their name change when they are effectively at the height of their fame? That was the case with Muhammad Ali, Metta World Peace, and Chaz Bono (who is probably most famous for his change of identity). bd2412  T 20:13, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I think it should be a case by case basis, in the case of manning what is she/he most famous for? is it the wikileaks scandal or the name and gender change? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:21, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Cassius Clay and Lew Alcindor were not most famous for their name changes. bd2412  T 20:42, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * BD2412, with a famous person changing their name at the height of their fame it is a good question to ask whether or not the common name changes immediately. If Tiger Woods announced tomorrow that he was changing his name to something completely different, I bet it would be reported by every media outlet in the world, reporters talking to him would use the new name right away, and publications would use the new name right away while also noting that he used to be known as Tiger Woods. Serious golf fans might star using the new name right away, or they might not. People who know who Woods is, but are not golf fans might not only not use the new name, but they might have trouble remembering what it is for a while. So the question of when a new name becomes a common name even for the most famous people is a good question and one we should discuss more fully.


 * Knowledgekid87, it should not matter why a person is famous. So long as a person is notable enough to have an article and we can determine what the person's common name is it does not matter what their name was when they became famous. 99.192.50.11 (talk) 21:32, 2 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)


 * You are correct that basing titles off intentions / preferences / legal status does not strictly fall under the banner of "common names." In that sense the section header would be slightly inaccurate; perhaps we should rename the section if we move ahead with a change to its contents, or else move the name changes bit to a sub-section or some other section. CaseyPenk (talk) 04:20, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Limiting scope, legal names, avoiding offense

 * While it might be worthwhile to reconsider how article titles are chosen in general it is a complex topic and would be difficult to manage. Limiting the scope to people might be a good place to start. As have been pointed out in the past week, extra care should be given when dealing with living people so giving this topic extra attention seems appropriate. Limiting the discussion to transgender name changes would be a wasted opportunity and having a more general scope has the benefit of forcing everyone to consider how their arguments affect other cases, not only one particular emotionally charged issue that one might feel passionately about.
 * Two suggested discussion points:
 * Should we try to avoid names that reasonably could be considered offensive by some groups?
 * Is it preferable to use the most recent name, rather than the most common when referring to people in article titles?
 * --Space simian (talk) 13:20, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Space simian, I can see how there might be merit in limiting the scope, as there are very many types of articles, but perhaps limiting to people might be a bit too narrow. Some things come to be named and change names in pretty much the same way that people do. So for a person, no one chooses their own name (at first, anyway). A name is given to us at birth by our parents (most of the time). The same is true for things like sports teams, films, songs, books, paintings, buildings, competitions, and commercial products. Someone responsible for bringing them into being names them first, and then changes might follow. Naming for things like discoveries of new species of living organisms, celestial bodies, and diseases also have similar stories: Someone in an "official" capacity might name it first and then public usage can take over and create a nickname that becomes the one commonly used. It might be useful to look at some of these cases as well. For example, it seems odd that the Wikipedia page for The White Album is called "The Beatles (album)", seeming to prefer a "birth" name to the name everyone - including the surviving Beatles themselves - use. A discussion of whether that really is the right name for that article might be worth contrasting with the fact that we have an article called "Elvis Costello", not "Declan MacManus" (even though it's his birth name, a name he chose to be his legal name, and the name he often uses for official songwriting credits). When names get tricky, sometimes it might be useful to look to non-humans with names too. 99.192.77.201 (talk) 13:29, 2 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * How we use peoples names raises special moral consideration that we do not have to take into account when talking about things. People always have a current, well defined, formal name that usually can be unambiguously determined. I'm thinking it is more respectful to use peoples formal names (which would solve the transgender name change issue as well as others) rather than the most common name. --Space simian (talk) 14:17, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't know what you mean by "formal" name, unless you mean "legal" name. But that would mean that the article for Elvis Costello should be titled "Declan McManus" and the article for Sting should be titled "Gordon Sumner" (or should it be "Gordon Matthew Thomas Sumner"?) As Sting said in the film Bring on the Night when several journalists called him "Gordon" at a press conference, "My children call me Sting, my mother calls me Sting, who is this Gordon character?" 99.192.77.201 (talk) 14:27, 2 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * I was thinking of the name that would normally be used to politely address someone that was not a close friend or family. Think "what would the Queen do?" :). Do we need to consider what Gordon thinks? Maybe the most common form of the most recent name would do. What would be the problem with moving 'Sting (musician)' to 'Gordon Sumner' and let the 'Sting' disambiguation page point to it? The article can still mention Sting of course. If we know Sting does not use his legal name but rather Sting, then that would be the name my suggestion above favours, the problem is rather that it might be hard to determine but in that case it is probably not controversial either. (An exception for stage names/pseudonyms is another possibility.) --Space simian (talk) 15:30, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * There is another problem with "legal" names. Sometimes when a person adopts a stage name, they change their name legally and sometimes they do not. Sometimes they do not change it right away, but do so long after it becomes their common name. It can often be difficult to determine accurately whether or not a stage name is also a legal name. Then there are the women who get married and keep their previous name as their professional name, yet it is never clear if they took a husband's name as a new legal name. Establishing what a person's legal name is might be harder than determining their common name, and might also be less helpful to a reader looking for an article. Elvis Costello has always been famous under that name, but initially he kept his brith name ("Declan Patrick MacManus"). But then he legally changed his name to "Elvis Costello". But then he decided to change it back legally, but adding a new middle name ("Declan Patrick Aloysius Macmanus"). It's interesting reading for fans looking at his page, but confusing if his page switches locations often while his common name does not change. 99.192.77.201 (talk) 15:39, 2 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * There is no confusion for readers since we can redirect pages and have disambiguation pages. I'm not advocating using the legal name but rather use what people want to be called (within reason). There are several cases where everyone knows the subject of the article actually uses a different name and using the old name can be considered offensive and a political statement, in those cases I think WP should use the most recent name they use for themselves. It is not so hard really. I'm not sure about stage names and pseudonyms, problem is that people might reject such names in the future as well (e.g. Cat Stevens). Determining what name someone prefer is not so hard, if it isn't the most commonly known name someone is bound to show up on the article talk-page and point it out and if they can verify it WP would change it. --Space simian (talk) 16:26, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Redirects help to a point, but when the person's legal name is not known to a reader and sufficiently different from their real name it can still be confusing. Common names are less likely to confuse because they are ... common. Also, by your suggestion the page for Martin Sheen would be called "Ramon Estevez", but there already is a page for Ramon Estevez, Sheen's son. So someone looking for Sheen's page now not only has to know Sheen's legal name, but which "Ramon" to look for.


 * Trying to avoid offense is a losing battle. It adds a subjective element that we need not introduce, which just makes naming harder. I like WP:CENSOR and would not like to see the policy on titles changed to conflict with that. Besides, if we do decide to avoid offensive titles, what do we do about titles that might be offensive, but to people other than the subject of the page? Should how the Kennedy family feels affect whether or not we name a page "Dead Kennedys"? Should we change the title of the page called "Nigger" to "N-word" because the title might offend people? For Wikipedia to not use a common name because it is offensive or political is for Wikipedia to take a position on the name and the politics behind it. But to have a consistent policy of using the common name, whatever it might be, says that we will not get involved on the question of whether or not the name is appropriate.


 * The article for Romani people begins by telling us that "Romani are widely known in the English-speaking world by the exonym 'Gypsies'...." The article is not called "Gypsies" because that term is considered offensive, but that is for Wikipedia to state it's disapproval of the name, which makes the titling political. Yet we have an article called "Eskimo" despite the fact that in "Canada and Greenland, the term Eskimo has fallen out of favour, as it is sometimes considered pejorative and has been replaced by the term Inuit." Trying to weigh what does and does not cause offense gets Wikipedia further away from it's job of providing factual information, no matter what people think of those facts. The common name is the common name, no matter how offensive it might be. Articles can tell us that names are considered offensive, as they do with "Nigger" and "Eskimo", but that does not mean we need to change the title as is done for "Romani people". 99.192.77.201 (talk) 17:50, 2 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * This discussion is great and brings out some important points. Before we get too far down the rabbit hole, I ask that we first agree upon what points we're actually going to discuss. That is, what do you think of the suggestions above and the specific wording that follows them? That will help steer our discussion in a more focused direction. It sounds like this discussion represents the "avoid offense" bullet point; are there any other points you wish to add? CaseyPenk (talk) 18:24, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * This sub-thread started as one about scope, and I think the scope should be as wide as possible. Even when we veered off into talking about offense, examples of articles that are not named for people became relevant. So I would just reiterate that the scope should be very wide. It is best if the basic rules for titles can be general enough to apply to all articles, including when we ask questions about offense. 99.192.77.201 (talk) 18:59, 2 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * I do see the value in keeping the scope as general as possible, but it seems like the immediate desire among many is to figure out how to deal with article titles for transgender people. Since it's such a pressing current topic. Dealing with all articles, name changes or not, is a massive undertaking that I don't think is appropriate to the (relatively limited) goals most people are trying to achieve here. I think most people are satisfied with the policy in general but want some tweaks / exceptions rather than a fundamental rethinking of the entire policy. In short, I think it could be overkill to go that route. CaseyPenk (talk) 19:06, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I am well aware that a very specific, single case is what has motivated people to seek policy changes. The idea that we should make a special exception in the general policy that most people are, as you admit, satisfied with for that reason is a bad one. Hard cases make bad law. 99.192.77.201 (talk) 19:33, 2 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)


 * "The article is not called "Gypsies" because that term is considered offensive" Actually the term Gypsy is not considered offensive in Britain. Some Wikipedia editors have claimed it to be true, but have had difficulty finding many reliable sources to back it up, while in Britain there are plenty of example of it use as a self identifying label: see for example The Gypsy Council (one of their pages says: "In the UK today we are proud to be Gypsy's but in Europe many people regard the term Gypsy as a term of abuse and prefer to be called Roma or ..." ). The term is not used for the article on Romany because it has two slightly different legal meanings (that reflect common usage) which comes under the WP:AT sentence "When there are several names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems...". The two legal meanings in England are: a Gypsy is anyone who lives an itinerant lifestyle in a Caravan who is not part of a circus under the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960; and a Gypsy is a Romany under the Race Relations Act 1976 (see Gypsy (term)). So under the Caravan Act meaning Romany are subgroup within a broader meaning of Gypsy. -- PBS (talk) 07:52, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I also like WP:CENSOR but do not think there is reason for concern about censorship here. I do not suggest WP should avoid mentioning facts because they might be offensive only that when choosing the best WP should try to avoid offensive names when reasonable alternatives are available; there is no reason to rub it in peoples face, that would only be puerile. Names that are common but by some considered offensive or derogatory can be mentioned in the article explaining that fact. I think Romani are a good example, even if Gypsie isn't considered universally offensive the fact that it is by a fair amount of people is a good reason to favour the use of Romani when choosing article title. It shouldn't be the only factor when deciding on title but it should be given some weight. Since you mention the n-word I came to think of a local debate: In Sweden there is a pastry commonly known as 'negerboll' (lit. negro ball) after some debate I think most reasonable people agreed that it makes everybody's life easier if it is called chokladboll (lit. chocolate ball) instead. ...But I think CaseyPenks's is probably right that this debate should be saved for the actual discussion. --Space simian (talk) 09:56, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * There's a further problem that in many jurisdictions the concept of a "legal name" just isn't there and a person can call themselves what they like so long as they aren't using it to defraud. Here a woman getting married can use her married surname immediately after the key moment of the service without going through any further hoops and many organisations will accept just the marriage certificate if they need proof of the new name. It can be very difficult to tell when an actor has adopted their stage name as their actual name and there just aren't grand registers that can be cited. Timrollpickering (talk) 16:27, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Apply WP:COMMONNAME... with any name change we need to have some patience... don't go rushing off to change the article title as soon as you hear that someone changed his/her name. Wait for the sources to start reflecting the name change. Note that can take some time for sources to catch up to reality and start to refer to the person by their new name. What we want to make sure of is that sources have not rejected the new name. We should follow the sources when it comes to names... not lead them. Blueboar (talk) 14:06, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Question: When you talk of "offense", do you only mean offense to the person who is the primary subject of the article or anyone who might be offended? Because if you mean the former, then we should recognize (as grim as this observation is) that when a transgender person dies we no longer have to worry about offending them, so there would no longer be any reason not to go with the common name for the article title. But if we are going to consider how others might be offended, then we need to know whose offense matters and whose does not. Should the fact that members of the Westboro Baptist Church might be offended by Wikipedia using the post-transition name for a transgender person count? If not, why not? For Wikipedia to say that the offense of other transgender people counts, but the offense of WBO members does not seems to violate WP:POV. 99.192.51.153 (talk) 16:57, 3 September 2013 (UTC) (==99.192....)


 * I understand what you are saying and agree that for the most part "offence" is very poor argument, but I don't think it is completely irrelevant in all circumstances. When weighting it against another pretty weak argument: the frequency of use, it is reasonable to give it some consideration. If you look at wikipedia title controversies I think you would find that it is often straightforward which term is offensive and which is not (as substantiated by sources) and if it is unclear one would simply fall back on other principles. Space simian (talk) 09:38, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * ...or maybe not. It would be dangerous if we wander into WP:POVNAMING land, we don't want to inadvertently assist in whitewashing as in Obi-Wan's 'environmental nightmare' example simply because someone manage to spin a name as offensive.--Space simian (talk) 11:55, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Other discussions

 * Blueboar, it is a good question to ask just when a name becomes a new "common" name. The section at the top of this page (called "RfC: Interpretation of WP:COMMONNAME") touches on this very question. There the question is about the names experts use versus the names the public uses, but the same question could be asked about names the media use versus publicly used names. 99.192.77.201 (talk) 14:32, 2 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * I was not necessarily talking about media sources, although they are part of the mix. I agree that when assessing a COMMONNAME we should (and do) give the various sources due weight. My point was more basic... In determining the best article title, Wikipedia follows sources, we don't lead the way.  This always causes some delay when it comes to name changes.  There will always be a period of time (it may only be a few hours... but it also could be several years) before sourcing (in the generic) catches up to reality and starts to refer to the subject by a new name. And occasionally, the sources actually reject the new name (The rock star Prince was a good example of this... when he changed his name to that odd symbol, sourcing rejected it and either continued to call him "Prince" or "The artist formerly known as Prince").  Also, we don't necessarily use Official names.  I realize that we want to be sensitive to the subject's desires... but we do need to wait for sources to start using a new name before we change. Blueboar (talk) 15:55, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * While it is not the entirety of the discussion, I do think there's an aspect to this discussion that suggests making an exception to "waiting for the sources" and instead suggests "leading the sources." Perhaps that exception could be justified on WP:BLP grounds. I'm not sure if we would need to "justify" or provide a "policy rationale" for changing this policy if it conflicts with others, such as WP:RS. Since this one is policy also. CaseyPenk (talk) 18:07, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I also agree that the main point to discuss is whether "lead the sources" should ever be an exception to "follow the usage in sources", and, if so, under what specific conditions, and, in particular, whether a name change by a trans person situation always, sometimes or never qualifies. --B2C 19:07, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I would like to propose that we don't need to scrap common name altogether: We can simply state that birth names "have problems" for the purpose of WP:COMMONNAME's "When there are several names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others" when titling articles for transgender people in policy. Common name can remain largely undamaged; after all, I think it's not unfair to say that using birth names for trans people pretty problematic, so we should just spell that out in policy, that way it's clear how that policy should be interpreted. Cam94509 (talk) 17:53, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I think we should go with what the subject is most notable for and what has been used in reliable sources over time. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:25, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Hmm...let's see. Jimbo moved Kate Middleton to Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge the day of the wedding, while Jorge Bergoglio's bio was renamed the day he became Pope. In both cases we were ahead of most coverage in English, appropriately so. Guettarda (talk) 20:00, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Our policy should reflect the permissiblility of making moves like that. Notably, we have special naming conventions for royals for no other reason than because they are royals. If our policies can recognize those archaic designations, there is no reason that our policies can not recognize the applicability of special naming conventions to persons belonging to other well-defined social groups. bd2412  T 20:17, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Guettarda, that those pages were moved so quickly does not mean it was the right decision. It might have been and it is certainly possible for a common name to switch right away, but nothing more general follows from that.


 * BD2412, we might have special naming conventions for royals just because they are royal, but if we do it is a bad idea. That is not a good reason to name their articles any differently from any other article. If I were to walk up to anyone (here in Canada, anyway) and say "Did you hear about what Prince Charles said?" everyone would know right away that I was referring to Charles, Prince of Wales. In fact, 99% of the time people talk about him by name all they say is "Prince Charles". So that would seem to be his common name, thus what the article should be named. If I wanted to find out information about any of the other people who also have been known as "Prince Charles", there is a disambiguation page for that. But to everyone, including the media, he is just "Prince Charles", so that is what the article should be called. So we do have peculiar naming conventions in some cases, like royals, and we could decide to have more, but having any peculiar conventions is a bad idea. Simplicity is best. 99.192.50.11 (talk) 21:44, 2 September 2013 (UTC) (99.192....)
 * One of the main reasons that we have special naming conventions for royals is so that we can be consistent. In fact, consistency is one of the five main factors that have been deemed to be important for our article naming. There are thousands of royals, most of whom are very little known, but the ones who are well-known are titled so as to be consistent with the entire spectrum of the group. We don't always succeed in establishing this kind of consistency, but we try. As for our articles on subjects who change their names, and particularly on transgender subjects, perhaps our policy could indeed pay a bit more attention to consistency across the spectrum of the group. bd2412  T 03:41, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Finding the article is not a problem for the readers, WP has 'Prince Charles' (the most commonly used name) redirect to 'Charles, Prince of Wales', and on his page there is a link to the 'Prince Charles (disambiguation)' page if the reader was looking for a different Prince Charles. --Space simian (talk) 06:18, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * In those cases we favoured the most recent name after a change. In society the most natural thing to do is to use the most recent name. If people change their name (for whatever reason) you do not insist on using the old one simply because it is more commonly used historically. Only Wikipedians understand the COMMONNAME argument, the rest of the world (i.e. the readers) expect the most recent name (which was also the cause for recent controversy). --Space simian (talk) 05:46, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment: COMMONNAME is a problematic policy as it's worshiped as a non-negotiable sixth pillar of Wikipedia. In reality, it's guidance on what article titles we should use: the section is titled "use commonly recognizable names", not "use the most common name". Personally, I would agree with adding something like "If an article subject expresses preference for a certain name, that preference should be given weight as long as its usage is reflected in reliable sources". I've got no problems with moving Cat Stevens to Yusuf Islam, or Snoop Dogg to Snoop Lion, and I don't know why other people would either. Readers aren't as stupid and easily confused as many COMMONNAME zealots would have you believe. Sceptre (talk) 03:21, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, as has been pointed out in the original post in this section, COMMONNAME also says that it's perfectly reasonable to use less common names if the most common is problematic. I can't see how this can't apply to trans people whose birth name is commonly used; I can't count the times the Leveson Inquiry's section on trans people has been cited by people such as myself since its publication. Sceptre (talk) 03:32, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, you're onto something here. As I look back more into the idea about birth names, that seems to get at the heart of the issue for articles titles about transgender people. The existing policy does already consider problematic names, it just doesn't spell out what names would be considered problematic. By clarifying which names would be problematic, we stand better chance of consensus since it's an incremental change rather than a fundamental rethinking. CaseyPenk (talk) 15:24, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * comment COMMONNAME is only one criteria for titling an article. Others are found at WP:CRITERIA, and we also have article naming conventions for dozens of different topics, including many listed here: Template:Naming_conventions. I agree we shouldn't be slavishly attached to commonname, and especially when commonname is under dispute, the other criteria should definitely be considered. Note this line, from WP:AT:"The choice of article titles should put the interests of readers before those of editors, and those of a general audience before those of specialists." The criteria are Recognizability; Naturalness; Precision; Conciseness; Consistency. I do think we should have stronger language around name changes, but I oppose any sort of transgender-exceptionalism here. There's no reason to believe titling an article with a TG-person's former (and presumably public) name, even if for a short time while waiting for sources to catch up, will do more or less harm than waiting to rename based on an artist's new stage name, a new name b/c of marriage, a country which has changed it's name, or a person who has changed their name for religious reasons, or any number of other reasons things or people get renamed. If we start to value some name changes more than others, we get into serious POV territory, where all name changes are equal, but some name changes are more equal than others. I think a stronger emphasis on the fact that much more weight should be given to post-move sources vs pre-move (for obvious reasons), and we should use the full scope of WP:AT and not just focus on commonname arguments in these cases. Again, considering the reader, what is the reader searching for? What are they expecting to find? --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 03:36, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hey, this "There's no reason to believe titling an article with a TG-person's former (and presumably public) name, even if for a short time while waiting for sources to catch up, will do more or less harm than waiting to rename based on an artist's new stage name, a new name b/c of marriage, a country which has changed it's name, or a person who has changed their name for religious reasons, or any number of other reasons things or people get renamed." is plainly incorrect. Calling me by my former public name in a space where I was going by my current public name would be taken as an insult if you didn't correct yourself (and might even feel excluded from that space if you refused to correct yourself if asked); I don't think the same is true about an artists stage name, or a new name b/c of marriage. The only one I can think of that really might compare is a religious name change. There is a difference in level of harm, and I think that that difference reflects on a wikipedia page. That said, I agree with most of the rest of what you've said. Cam94509 (talk) 06:24, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * while it seems you have personal experience in this matter I'm not going to quibble over your own reported 'harm' thAt may come from having a Wikipedia article titled after your heretofore previously well-known name (since that is the case we're dealing with - its not about someone addressing you at the workplace, nor is it revealing a name that was previously private.) however, I cannot agree with your assertion that we can compare 'harm done' on some sort of scale and that at one end of the scale you have only two groups of ppl: trans and religious conversions - while at the other end of the scale we have everything else, including whole tribes of native people's who must continue to wear the moniker of their oppressors, as well as individuals who have changed their name for reason X. We simply cannot compare 'harm' in this way, and decide to do an emergency rename for some (by asserting that a Wikipedia title is *really* harmful) while telling the others to get in line and wait for commonname. We can't rank 'harm' in a neutral fashion in this way.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 11:43, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * How do you measure other subjective criteria when a judgement is needed to apply policy? For example, an editor can be blocked for being disruptive, but one person's disruption is another person's vigorous debate. In that case I expect you'd try to build a consensus of opinion to decide whether a person was disruptive enough to warrant a block: in this case what's the problem with building consensus and so establishing precedent about what is harmful enough for special measures? Most certainly there is a spectrum of harm, and I think we could all agree that Snoop Dogg lies well south of the threshold; meanwhile myself and others are trying to build consensus that trans birth names are above that threshold. Chris Smowton (talk) 14:07, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * How do you know Snoop Dogg is south of the threshold? He had a religious conversion. He explicitly rejects some of the past represented by Snoop Dogg. Can you say for sure that on the "harm-o-meter", Snoop is less harmed than Manning by their respective article titles (esp given that Manning explicitly recognizes that Bradley will continue to be used when discussing the trial, etc)? I think we need to find a way to treat them the same, and find a neutral way to disintermediate. I think usage in reliable sources is still the most neutral way, even if it means in some cases people get their feelings hurt. If that happens, then its simply because Wikipedia mirrors society and society can be rather harsh. The IP makes some good points below on this topic.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:27, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh wow, I had thought Snoop Dogg/Lion was the silly "what if I decided I was King of Denmark?" example du jour; I had no idea there was a religious thing going on there. In that case he may well score higher on the harm-o-meter (a term I'll happily embrace without the scare quotes :)) I see your reasoning about deferring to popular usage, in that it ducks the problem of designing a consensus-based harm-o-meter and is thus the easiest solution. It may well be that it is impossible to run the harm-o-meter without causing an unconstructive talk page explosion every time, and if so I agree we should fall back to treating identity like any other somewhat-nebulous topic of reportage; however for the time being I continue to hope that a reasonably-usable meter can be built out of case-by-case discussion and setting of precedent, with the particular goal of making the place more welcoming to trans editors and readers, and the general goal of encouraging civility towards minority groups even when the majority is largely indifferent about the group and relevant etiquette. Chris Smowton (talk) 16:24, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * This was one of the reasons that we came rather quickly to a rough consensus to use the feminine pronouns, as most people here seem to agree that in terms of gender identity, the individual is ultimately the best arbiter. However, in terms of what we title an article (which is NOT the same thing as the person's real "name"), the individual is *not* the best arbiter - rather, the broader world is the best arbiter, because the goal of an article title is to indicate to the reader what this thing is usually called, and ensure that the majority of readers are not confused and that they have ended up at the right place. I'm sure BP would like one of their oil spills to be called "BP's technical fluid leakage" instead of "BP's environmental nightmare" - but that's not up to them - it's up to the world. Language, ultimately, is determined by usage. You may say, what you call someone in polite conversation should be determined by them ("Please, don't call me Joseph, only my mother calls me that, just call me Joe") - and that's fair enough - but we aren't having a polite conversation, we are talking about what is in 36 point bold font at the top of the article and what do other articles link to. If we take a hypothetical example, per the arguments made by trans-advocates, we should use the name Chelsea in the title EVEN if no news sources whatsoever have switched (I know that's not the case, but this is reductio ad absurdum). Indeed, wikipedia was feted by those same advocates and various news sources for having been ahead of the game, when in fact we should have been behind. I agree we should make wikipedia welcome to editors of all persuasions, but that may also mean that some of those persuasions have to temper their own feelings about what is "right" and what "must be done" and what constitutes "hate speech" and get behind the core policy of WP:NPOV - this is a two-way street. Take one look at the debates in Israel/Palestine or even what Ireland should point to, this is a tough neighborhood, so you (unfortunately) need thick skin if you're going to participate in content disputes! Sometimes the compromise solution is one that neither side really wanted, but that both sides agree to accept. It's not a question of etiquette - etiquette means you address Obama as Mr. President, but that's not what we do here. Etiquette means you don't mention the indiscretion of the congressman, but we don't shy away from that either - we mention it, and refuse to remove it if it's true, even if it brings his wife to tears. In fact, there are tens of thousands, if not more, BLPs (of *all* genders), who would love nothing more than to delete their bio, because on balance it hurts them more than it helps them (b/c people usually get in the news for doing something bad, but much more rarely for doing something good), but we don't do emergency admin actions in those cases. If those same people advocating for something as (frankly) trivial as an article name change were simultaneously leading the charge to clean up other numerous BLP violations for groups that weren't "theirs" - such as native american tribes, or deghettoizing categories for women, or etc etc I'd have a lot more sympathy, but for now this all reeks of serious POV-pushing into one particular area without concern or thought for what it means for non-trans articles.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:01, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You say that the title is not determining a person's true identity, but rather their heading in an encyclopaedia, and I do believe that's what (most) editors advocating for BM (for example) intend to do. However, even though the underlying rationale is "There wasn't consensus to use CM, so we'll use BM as the most commonly known identifier," it was nontheless perceived as a rejection of the CM identity in favour of BM as the "proper" one. Again I'm not saying anybody intended to send that message, only that it was received and that that reception is the root of the harm caused by the decision.
 * I agree that there are many cases where one has to be hard-nosed about this sort of thing, such as your congressman example; however, those examples shared the critical property that to be polite would require excision of facts, such as record of a political or sexual indiscretion. By contrast using a trans person's new name is only etiquette, in the sense that it is only a matter of style, not content. There is no need to be hard-nosed in this particular case because accuracy is not at stake; therefore by default we should pick the polite option.
 * It is certainly the case that many people advocating in this direction, myself included, are unusually sympathetic to the trans cause, but I think that's an inevitability -- if you're discussing X, the people that don't care much about X will drop out quickly and you'll be left with those invested in the outcome one way or another. As to what a policy about trans names would mean to other articles though, surely the answer is sweet nothing, if worded correctly! If a candidate policy used phrasing like "Biographies of people who have publically declared a trans identity" or the like then it needn't have any direct implication for other topics: those may well be discussions worth having, but are neither helped nor hindered by this one. Chris Smowton (talk) 18:27, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I am personally sympathetic to the issues that trans people face. In fact, I created an article at Kristin Beck (and not Christopher T. Beck), but the reason no-one disputed that is that before "coming-out" as Kristin, "Chris Beck" was not notable, we didn't have oodles of media coverage, and readers did not know who Chris Beck was - they only knew her as Kristin. But, if we make an exception that says "As soon as a trans-person announces a name change, we should retitle the article immediately; for everyone else, we should wait until RS catch up", that is inherently not neutral, because it begs the question, why is there an exception here? Above, I think you're right, "a rejection of the CM identity in favour of BM as the "proper" one." - this is actually what happened, because that is what sources were doing at that moment - they were not yet accepting the new identity, they were rather struggling with it (read the early articles, and you can see the confusion - and see how AP, NY Times, and others flip-flopped and stumbled around before settling on the proper way to address manning). So I think the current read of sources seems to be "no consensus" on Bradley vs Chelsea, and the discussion here mirrored the real world, and the result did as well. In 30 days, that may well change, and if COMMONNAME becomes clearly a wash between Bradley/Chelsea, then we can start to look at other considerations, including WP:OFFICIALNAME, etc.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:15, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Regarding making a special article naming convention for trans people, I agree that it would be unusual, and does indeed raise the question "why an exception?", but I think that simply reflects the fact that their situation is in fact exceptional (though not entirely unique -- again cite BD's point about religious conversion). It is unusual in the fact that the common name for a person is also arguably a slur against that person. Suppose there was a person who was famous under a clearly pejorative name ("Steve the Asshole"); I suspect wiki would sidestep appearing to back that pejorative view by using a less common name, rather than simply mirroring whether the press approved of Steve. Note also that the existing MOS/pronouns text overrides RSes in the same way, advising a particular usage if there is a publically known trans identity, not if the press adopts it.
 * As to rejecting the CM identity, the disagreement here hinges on what it means to reject. As you describe it, the community said "we think BM is proper because that's the most frequently used name; a thing's proper name is what people call it", whereas the message that comes across is that the CM identity isn't just unpopular but outright false; that she just does not exist, and BM should stop playing make-believe. Again to be clear I don't think you or anyone else is seriously peddling that view; I simply think a clear policy along the lines of MOS/pronouns would prevent that anti-trans impression from being given. Chris Smowton (talk) 20:16, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * No change to COMMONNAME and no new section etc. I agree with what Blueboar wrote above, and I think that the current section on COMMONNAME covers this issue. The suggestion "one should consider only the name used in reliable sources published after the name change," begs the question "What about a half a second after"? If there have been no publications after that change what title do we give the article? As always there needs to be some sort of reasonableness in this which is what the curretn wording "more weight should ..." implies and I think the suggested alternative strips away. -- PBS (talk) 08:07, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Naming conventions for transgender people

 * Comment: suggest the scope should for the time being be limited to transgender people, because attempting to formulate a general policy that also includes stage names, maiden names and so on ignores the fact that trans people are an unusual case with features that aren't present for either performers or married people. Specifically, it is a common anti-trans slur to use a birth name in a manner that suggests it is the true name, similar to wilfully using incorrect pronouns as already covered by the MOS, and titling an article for their birth name may be, or may be read as, pejorative usage of that kind. At this point people often chime in arguing that Wiki isn't for promoting trans people's cause, and this is true, but when wiki will report on trans people, and will make some choice about how to address them, it might as well make an effort to be civil in doing so. It is of course impossible to avoid offending all people in all ways, but this is a specific offense that is easy to codify and that can be avoided at no cost to the fidelity of the encyclopaedia. Chris Smowton (talk) 09:05, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * (note: BD makes a good point above about religious conversion presenting a similar case. I suggest a good approach would be to formulate the transgender naming policy and then have a separate discussion about expanding it to religious identity if people want to, in order to keep the discussion at any one time as simple as possible.) Chris Smowton (talk) 09:05, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * So to be clear, you want an RfC on the proposal that an exception should be made to the recognizability criterion of WP:AT (a.k.a. COMMONNAME) specifically and solely for transgender people? Peter coxhead (talk) 09:23, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Essentially, yes. I think wiki ought to recognise that there is an unusual imperative to use an asserted identity on grounds of civility and respect in that case. Note that the MOS:IDENTITY passage about using gendered pronouns corresponding to a person's last-publically-asserted identity already makes a specific concession of the same scope (i.e. it applies to "any person whose gender might be questioned," which is a slightly larger set than transgender people) and with the same aim; I'd like to see a similar passage in WP:AT. Chris Smowton (talk) 09:52, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * (Incidentally I agree that some sort of general AT/IDENTITY needs to be hammered out in due course; I advocate a specific discussion first because I think starting with the general case will make it much harder to work out what consensus has been reached because the decision space is much larger) Chris Smowton (talk) 10:03, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If we can have a special naming policy for royals, who only fall into that group because they happen to be born into or marry into a narrowly defined lineage, then we can have a special naming policy for transgender people. This promotes consistency in the titling of articles within the defined area of interest. bd2412  T 13:43, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * BD2412, your first four words are what worry me. "If we can have...." Sure, we CAN have it, but should we? I have yet to hear an argument that the special naming policy for royals is a good idea. Someone said something about "consistency", but I don't see why the general naming policy would result in inconsistency of names for articles for royals. We CAN have 1000 different "special" naming policies for 1000 different kinds of cases, but that way lies insanity. You have already suggested sliding down the slippery slope from 1 to 2. Chris Smowton's suggestion that we deal with transgender names first and religion, race, and other cased later suggest we could have 3, 4, 5, or more. I say, if anything, we should reel that 1 back in. 99.192.51.153 (talk) 14:23, 3 September 2013 (UTC) (==99.192....)
 * bd2412 - To play the devil's advocate; WP:NCROY is the source of constant contention and bickering. Perhaps we should be discussing eliminating WP:NCROY rather than making more policies like NCROY. NickCT (talk) 14:29, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Almost every policy in Wikipedia is a "source of constant contention and bickering". bd2412  T 14:35, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Support Ooops! We're not voting on this. But I still support it. Using the regular disambiguation parentheticals we use for any other articles is enough. Henry IV of England can just as easily be Henry IV (England), which is already a redirect. Then put Henry IV of France at the currently vacant Henry IV (France) and voila! royal articles are named just like the rest. No special rules are needed. 99.192.51.153 (talk) 14:40, 3 September 2013 (UTC) (99.192....)
 * I'll make a deal with you. You get Naming conventions (royalty and nobility) removed, and I'll withdraw my support for this proposal. By the way, I would not be at all surprised if we do have 1,000 different "special" naming policies for 1000 different kinds of cases. Off the top of my head, I believe that we also have special practices for names of military campaigns, Roman family names, biological genera, U.S. cities, legal case names, asteroids, and concubines of Chinese emperors. Generally, these are in the name of consistency, bd2412  T 15:36, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Your "deal" sounds like you are saying that you will continue to support a new bad policy unless I can get an existing bad policy changed. Compounding errors is generally a bad idea. Also, I don't really believe that there are many separate naming conventions. I checked WP:NCRN, for example, and it has radical suggestions like "Common names as regularly used in English are preferred" and "use the common name in English sources". The rest is about how to disambiguate. It is a "special" policy only insofar as it helps people in deciding what the common name actually is, not in offering an alternative to using the common name. 99.192.51.153 (talk) 15:57, 3 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)


 * Chris Smowton, there are four reasons why I object to a more narrow scope. (1) If we are going to look at one kind of case first and others later, why transgender cases first? Sure, it is the flavour-of-the-moment, but that does not make it more pressing (in terms of possible future cases) or more important that other possible cases of offense. That we have not thought in the past to worry about religious offense or racial offense and now, even when we do, we tell them to get to the back of the line (even though those have been live issues for centuries and transgender naming is the new kid on the block) can (and will) appear to be offensive in its own right.


 * (2) The idea that we can ignore all cases but transgender ones and come up with a policy that will generalize is to make the same mistake that has been made for generations as a justification for exclusion. "Let's just find out how to treat white men for disease X and then generalize our findings to non-whites and women." There might be a good general policy that will cover both transgender cases and others, but to find it you have to consider all the cases together.


 * (3) Dealing with transgender cases now and others later has the potential to hide the actual consequences of any policy change. If we do decide on a new policy for transgender cases and that has direct consequences for other cases, then we better talk about those consequences before making any decision. What follows from any decision is important to discuss before making it.


 * (4) Dealing with gender separately from race, religion, and other cases presents the possibility that we will decide "We don't like offending people of type X, so let's change the rules to make them an exception. But people of type Y? Who cares about them? No 'special' rules for them!" If we are going to take offense seriously, then we need to be consistent on what we say about it, regardless of the basis of offense. A divide-and-conquer approach can help get a foot in the door so others can follow, but it can also set up a situation where some are allowed in and others not.


 * People change names for many reasons that are deeply personal and would be hurt or offended by people insisting on using their former name. Transgender people are (sometimes) one example of this. For Muhammad Ali, the name change was a religious conversion but it was also a deeply personal rejection of racism by rejecting what he called his "slave name". Matt Sandusky, who was sexually abused by his father, Jerry Sandusky, is changing his surname (along with that of his wife and their four children) so he no longer has to bear the name of his abuser. Linda Lovelace also rejected that name because of its association with her sexual abuse, yet Wikipedia's article still bears that name. Place names change for similar reasons. After the infamous "Niggerhead" camp incident involving Rick Perry, The Daily Show did a great segment pointing out that many places in America have the word "nigger" in their name. Should any of those place names be changed because the word is offensive, that should be treated the same as transgender and sexual abuse cases. As a local (to me) example, Halifax Central Junior High used to be called "Cornwallis Junior High School", but the name was changed because Edward Cornwallis, the founder of Halifax, promoted the genocide of the Mi'kmaq people. The name Washington Redskins is also widely regarded as offensive. Sports Illustrated journalist Peter King has recently announced that he will no longer use "Redskins" in his work. In 1995, St. John's University changed the name of its sports teams from "Redmen" to "Red Storm" for similar reasons. I raise all of these examples to point out that there are lots of article titles that can and do cause offense to people, so if we are going to take offense seriously as a concern we should address in article titles, then we should talk all of it equally seriously. No one's offense is more important here or should get priority treatment. Either all of it matters or none of it does. 99.192.51.153 (talk) 14:18, 3 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)


 * "A divide-and-conquer approach can help get a foot in the door so others can follow, but it can also set up a situation where some are allowed in and others not." All very true, but if you've been at Wikipedia for any length of time you've found that change here can be painfully slow and gets bogged down in a lot of trivial concerns. Doing even simple things takes time and concerted effort and even then only happens one step at a time. Is it not better to do something that we find to be right rather than do nothing? Gradualism is simply the way things work here; Wikipedia wasn't built in a day.
 * There is already a framework in the article titles policy regarding offense. Namely the bit about "the most common has problems." It just doesn't state which titles are problematic. I think we could expand that bit based on areas of reasonable offense (e.g. names the subject prefers not to be called) that's also broad. CaseyPenk (talk) 15:37, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * 99.192, I agree with pretty much all of this, and Casey's comment above -- to be absolutely clear, I'm not saying trans people are more specialier than other groups, only that (a) it's a group that's the subject of a current ongoing debate, making us ideally placed to formulate policy on the matter, and (b) I personally think cooking policies in a "modular" fashion (to steal your programming metaphor :)) may be more productive than trying to address the whole thing at one time because it'll lead to a series of small, focussed conversations rather than one epic, sprawling, hard-to-assess one. I don't think it's a huge deal whether it's done case-by-case or as a monolithic title style guide though since the results should be comparable. Chris Smowton (talk) 16:45, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Chris Smowton, I have to like any comment that starts like this one :-) My one main point of disagreement is with this; "that's the subject of a current ongoing debate, making us ideally placed to formulate policy on the matter". I would say the fact that it is the issue-of-the-moment is precisely what makes it not ideally placed. Hot topics tend to brig out hot-headed advocates with strong biases, whatever those biases are. Making a policy during a crisis is always less preferable to making policy in a cool hour. So if any type of case is ideally placed, it probably is any one of the other examples I gave (well, the "Redskins" one might be a bit too hot) are cool enough right now to offer the prospect of more reasoned rather than impassioned discussion. 99.192.51.153 (talk) 17:10, 3 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)

No change needed

 * No change to COMMONNAME needed - I really don't see the purpose of this discussion. COMMONNAME is working fine. Bradley Manning will shortly change to Chelsea Manning once a new RM establishes that "Chelsea" is in fact the current COMMONNAME. We shouldn't be talking about changing COMMONNAME. COMMONNAME works. The Bradley Manning debate occurred b/c of rash Admin action and failure to follow COMMONNAME. We should be talking about changing policies that don't fall in line with COMMONNAME. NickCT (talk) 14:27, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No change to COMMONNAME needed per NickCT. COMMONNAME is a policy that works, and will work in the future.   GregJackP   Boomer!   14:44, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No change to COMMONNAME needed—COMMONNAME, POVNAME, and TITLECHANGES already address the issue of name changes for public figures perfectly. It protects our ability to describe article subjects objectively without making exceptions for various protected classes. WP:BLP works in concert with this to protect living persons who are not generally known by their birth names, as outing them can cause physical harm. As NickCT noted, if we had followed these policies in the Manning title controversy instead of cutting off the discussion, I believe a large majority of the editors would have been happy with the result. DPRoberts534 (talk) 19:11, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

"and the most common has problems"
It occurred to me in reading over some suggestions and comments (especially from Cam94509) that we already have a tool for dealing with names that may be problematic - namely, the following phrase in Article titles: "When there are several names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others."

The only shortcoming with that phrase is that it doesn't specify which types of names are considered problematic. I propose we expand upon the above phrase with an explanation of exactly which names are problematic some examples of the kind of situations that make a name problematic. Here is my rationale: Thoughts? CaseyPenk (talk) 15:44, 3 September 2013 (UTC) Updated per 99.192's suggestion below. CaseyPenk (talk) 17:16, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Such a change would be general and would not favor or disfavor any particular group
 * Such a change would not depart from WP:COMMONNAME's focus on reliable sources, and would still require extensive coverage of the new name (the bit about "all of them fairly common" means 'commons in reliable sources')
 * Such a change would provide better guidance for future cases of name changes, so we are left scratching our heads less of the time about how to interpret policy


 * I very strongly support this. It would be very helpful to offer some guidance on what "has problems" could mean. As written, it is too vague to be a lot of help. My only caution is a small nuance. You wrote about giving "an explanation of exactly which names are problematic", but that is too ambitious and potentially too limiting. I suggest that we try to give "some examples of the kind of situations that make a name problematic". Its a small, but important, difference in emphasis, but also in keeping with the spirit of the suggestion. 99.192.51.153 (talk) 16:08, 3 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * By "some examples of the kind of situations that make a name problematic," do you mean a non-exhaustive listing that would include things like "when an entity changes its name and prefers to be known by the new name," among others? How would we decide which examples to include and which not to? CaseyPenk (talk) 16:19, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * My general worry is if we make a change like this...
 * "When there are several names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others. The most common name has problems in the following cases: A, B, and C."
 * ... we presume that we have exhausted all possible reasonable examples of problems, which might not be true. Other editors in the future might identify further kinds of problems we failed to notice, and so it is good to keep the door open for them as well. But with a change like this...
 * "When there are several names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others. Examples of cases where the most common name has problems include the following: A, B, and C."
 * ... we leave the door open for other editors to identify other problems we missed while specifying the ones we have noticed. For an example of how that worked in law, see Section Fifteen of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, particularly the subsection "Enumerated or analogous grounds" and how the phrase "in particular" was interpreted to be inclusive, but not exhaustive. As for the question of which examples to include and which not to include, we should include all of the ones that we can identify and decide are worth including. If that is 10, then it is 10. If it is none, then it is none. 99.192.51.153 (talk) 16:32, 3 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * Your modification sounds reasonable. I agree that it would be more reasonable to give some major examples, while noting that the examples are not exhaustive. To that point, I would suggest we expand "Examples of cases where the most common name has problems include" to "Examples of cases where the most common name has problems include, but are not limited to" (emphasis mine). While common usage of "include" would allow for other examples, we want to be very clear the listing is non-exhaustive. CaseyPenk (talk) 16:43, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. 99.192.51.153 (talk) 17:00, 3 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)


 * In terms of examples, what ideas does everyone have? Here are some ideas:
 * Former names, when the subject has indicated preference for a new name
 * Names widely considered to be pejoratives
 * CaseyPenk (talk) 17:10, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I recommend "names that strongly imply something factually inaccurate about the subject" as that's an application that I think might see a reasonable amount of use. I really like where we're going with this, because making small changes instead of big changes is really where we should be headed here. Cam94509 (talk) 17:58, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * It sounds like you are suggesting that we should decide what names are indicators of gender and change the titles of articles where the name suggests a gender other than the person's actual gender. Well intentioned, but a hornets nest in reality. Just what names suggest ender will be contested (a web search shows that some people actually have named newborn girls "Bradley" with that spelling) and then there are the people who naturally have names that seem not to fit their gender, like Michael Learned, Noah Cyrus, and Glenn Close, not to mention cases like George Sand. 99.192.51.153 (talk) 18:15, 3 September 2013 (UTC) (99.192....)
 * Actually, I wasn't thinking about peoples names at all. I was thinking about the names of events or things where the name of the event or thing implied something false about it. Cam94509 (talk) 18:26, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Could you give some examples of factually inaccurate names? None come to mind, other than perhaps mis-labeling certain events as scandals or the like. Although, even then it's a matter of interpretation. We can judge the reliability of a source but judging truth is much more difficult, and not something I've seen us generally do. CaseyPenk (talk) 18:30, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, I can't think of a particularly good example right now. I'm willing to withdraw it if it seems like a thing that never happens, I just mentioned it because if we're going to write it as a "for example" sentence, I just wanted to include some cases where it might not be applied to people so that the reader didn't get the impression that it was only intended for people, and this seems like a class of cases where it might happen. If anyone has a better way of doing so, I think we should get a nonperson related case in there, as we should avoid leaving the impression that the section of the rule we are amending is only intended for the discussion of people's article titles. Cam94509 (talk) 18:35, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree that we should include examples that extend beyond just people, since this applies to all articles. Ideas from anyone else? CaseyPenk (talk) 18:46, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I would be circumspect about going beyond human names, since the potential for harm is greater for a person undergoing a change of identity than for, say, a stadium, or the Sears Tower. That said, I think a good "entity" example would be a company like Altria. bd2412  T 19:37, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmm, Altria is a tricky one. They prefer to be known using the new name and using the old one can damage their reputation (by revealing who they are). I'm personally disinclined against honoring Philip Morris's name change request, but that's my personal POV. Still, objectively speaking, corporations are not people and are thus not subject to WP:BLP considerations. Any damage done to a corporation hurts their bottom line but is unlikely to result in them committing a suicide, a very real possibility for transgender people. CaseyPenk (talk) 19:56, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * BD2412, the reason that name changes for places and events should be considered if name changes in people are going to be discussed is because they can cause offense as well. Examples I gave on this page include the "Niggerhead" camp and other places with "Nigger" in their name, schools like the former Cornwallis Junior High School, teams like Washington Redskins and St. John's Red Storm. To add an event to the list, what was once called "The Rape of Nanking" is now called "Nanking Massacre". Names can be changed where they are the cause of offense, so if avoiding offending people is a reasonable goal in article titling, then these all need to be considered as well. 99.192.74.67 (talk) 00:32, 4 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * Regarding titles that "cause offense"... no, we don't always use the least offensive name as our title... See WP:POVNAMING. We follow the sources.  When a significant majority of sources routinely use a seemingly offensive name, so do we.  It may seem counter-intuitive, but following the sources and using the common but potentially offensive name is actually more neutral than not doing so.
 * What concerns me about this entire conversation is the idea that we should follow the subject's wishes and desires. that comes close to favoring some sort of "Official name" over "commonly used names".  When it comes to article titles, Wikipedia does not necessarily use what the subject of an article wants to be called ... it uses whatever name is most commonly used by reliable sources.  If a subject changes its name... we wait... we don't rush immediately off and change our title... we wait until enough sources have started to use the new name.  Then we change.  How long this will be depends on what the sources do... but the concept is the same for all name changes... people, places, things. It's a consistent policy and there is no need to change it. Blueboar (talk) 01:30, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually we don't always wait. In many cases the naming conventions both on-Wiki and off it are often so clearly established (and usually written up) and common sense makes it clear the new name will take off that an article gets renamed on the spot with no controversy even if the Google count hasn't yet caught up. A recent example is the new Pope where we didn't go through a bureaucratic procedure of awaiting sources publishing with the papal title name in them and getting a clear count together then having a drawn out RM to change the title because it was common sense that it would end up there anyway - and indeed not having the article with named with the Pope's title in the days when everyone's rushing to find out more about him would have made the encyclopedia look out of date and either over-pedantic or making a fringe hardline Protestant statement. Timrollpickering (talk) 02:30, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

"article gets renamed on the spot with no controversy even if the Google count hasn't yet caught up" I think you are making the assumption that one has to see Google counts to decide on common usage. In the case of the Pope, television and radio stations such as the BBC will broadcast the information (Reuters and the other wire services pride themselves with being the first reliable source to confirm such things). Only if those reliable sources disagree or there are not enough published sources to draw a conclusion would there been a need to hesitate, and in the case of less well known entities and people, a name change may not make the news services, or the news services my not give a clear indication which name will be used and a RM would be necessary. For those who may not have noticed it, a recent example that was mentioned on this talk page is the naming of stadia (see above Sponsors and "naming rights"). -- PBS (talk) 09:37, 4 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Google counts are frequently brought up in RMs as though they determine all. But the term is also useful for the more general sum of the sources. The point is that even when there is no dispute over what the new name is the sources aren't all immediately using it from that moment onwards, whether due to delay or unfamiliarity, but we haven't waited and faffed about with bureaucracy, instead we've followed common sense and standard practice to update the article immediately. Some of this issue is effectively down to "common name" vs common practice. Timrollpickering (talk) 12:33, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Interpretation of "most common"
Also, we should also probably tighten up the language with "fairly common." As I interpret it, "fairly common" casts a wide net - you could have half a dozen "fairly common" names for a subject. I suggest we change "fairly common" to "common" or "highly common." That would avoid us having to give credence to outlandish names that receive only niche media coverage. In the most current case, "Chelsea Manning" is a "highly common" way to refer to the subject, whether or not it is the "most common" - so the case is still covered. I think tightening up the standards for acceptable alternatives would keep this under control. CaseyPenk (talk) 17:37, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

If the most commonly used name in reliable sources has problems then why invent our own term? I can see this running into problems and would recommend going with a source used 2nd most often in reliable sources if there is one at least as a first option as long as it is WP:N, ect.... - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:41, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Wait, we're not inventing our own term. We're just using other names that are still very common to avoid problematic names (actually, that's a thing that The policy already discusses), and giving examples of what those problematic names might be. In fact, because of the way the policy is written, still demanding "a" common name, just not "the" common name, if we're running into WP:N issues, that implies we can't use whatever name we've decided to replace the problematic name with. Moreover, we're not required to replace problematic names if there is simply no common alternative to them; we're only required to do so if there IS a reasonably common alternative to them. Cam94509 (talk) 18:48, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * That could work, but what if the second most common is a longshot? That is, if the first most common is 99% of usage and the second is just 1%. We could say "you can use the second most common name, if it is highly common." Something to that effect. CaseyPenk (talk) 18:46, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * In any case, I agree that for article names we should probably only consider the two most common names. Once we start considering third most common and fourth most common names it becomes kind of arbitrary and could go in unexpected directions. I do wonder if we can definitively assess the ranking of different names.. sometimes it's a tossup. We could say, "among two names, both of which are highly common" -- that way we wouldn't have to choose which is most common and which is second, because sometimes it's unclear (as with Private Manning). CaseyPenk (talk) 18:49, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I actually don't agree. I think we should be allowed consider any name that is both commonly used and broadly recognizable when we must replace the most common name.Cam94509 (talk) 18:50, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I was just thinking about that after I wrote what I did. There are probably five different ways to refer to Bill Clinton (middle name or not, President or not, etc.) So limiting to just two doesn't quite work. CaseyPenk (talk) 18:52, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay per Obi then a third or forth option can be there, I just think that us naming the thing should be last resort. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:55, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I am of the opinion that we should NEVER name the thing our self. Cam94509 (talk) 19:16, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I have seen this done before but when it comes to controversial titles this may not be a good idea. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:54, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * One of the problems with "most common" is that it is also not a purely objective question, because you would have to do a very careful search of *all* reliable sources discussing a topic to make sure you've determined the "most" common name. Indeed, my own feeling is that you need to have an order of magnitude difference, across a wide sample of sources, ideally chosen randomly and in advance of any searching, to be truly sure that you've found the most common. A difference of 2x or even 5x in sources could simply indicate bias in selection of sources. Thus, 2nd most often (or even "most" often) is not something we can always mathematically determine, except in rare cases where there's a clear winner, a clear second place, and then the rest of the field.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:51, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, rankings are rather arbitrary and can stray into POV. Regardless and separate from what we're doing here (although we can consider it in the same breath), the phrase "most common" as it currently stands in the policy is not very helpful. There's no definitive "most common" name for some subjects, such as Private Manning. So I'd recommend we discuss that. CaseyPenk (talk) 18:54, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Pfft, I didn't realize which section I was in for any of my comments in this section. Please take any of my comments here with a grain of salt. I need to be more careful with my editing. I'm embarrassing myself repeatedly. Cam94509 (talk) 19:03, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, I divided up the section after the comments had been made because it was veering off from the original topic. Sorry for the confusion. I think you put your comments in the right place. CaseyPenk (talk) 19:09, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh. OK. *headdesk*. Fair enough, I'm in the clear, then. Cam94509 (talk) 19:13, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

What's the big deal?
We're talking about the title of the article here, that's all. The masses of discussion about anyone who changes their name, and how WP responds to that need for change, has become overblown and a subject of the wider media in itself. People, we have #REDIRECT othername ! That is all that matters to readers trying to find an article here. Frankly, it doesn't matter what we call the article, it will still be found because of redirects and, truly, it is no overhead on the WP servers to have a redirect in place. And the reader doesn't see any delay in presentation of the page. So we're back to arguing about why such a choice of title should matter.

On the performer front, how about Moya Brennan, or Máire Ní Bhraonáin, or even Máire Brennan? She only changed her name legally in 2009 yet the article recognised this way back. So, clearly, legality shouldn't be the issue here, indeed many countries either have no mechanism for 'legal' name change nor requirement for such. Just using 'a name' is sufficient.

In the case of Chelsea Manning (as against all the other trans people we've happily changed the title of once they've announced it) it seems to be some transphobia alongside the desire of some to punish her in any way they can because of perceived espionage. In the case of Yusuf Islam it could be argued (and I have) that it is Islamophobia that WP are refusing to recognise the name he has used for 35 years, though having Cassius Clay as a redirect to Muhammad Ali doesn't seem to bother anyone even though he became famous first under the former name.

So let's not lose sleep over the title, but concentrate on what matters: the content. If someone wants another name let us be nice and let them have it. We'll always have redirects. --AlisonW (talk) 17:15, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * AlisonW, the fact that you spend so much time arguing for particular positions on what the article titles should be suggests that you already know the answer to your own question. If, as your rhetorical question suggests, article titles are no big deal, then you should not care what title is chosen. But clearly you do care, so at the very least you must admit that it is a little bit of a deal. 99.192.51.153 (talk) 17:22, 3 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * "That is all that matters to readers trying to find an article here. Frankly, it doesn't matter what we call the article, it will still be found because of redirects and, truly, it is no overhead on the WP servers to have a redirect in place. And the reader doesn't see any delay in presentation of the page. So we're back to arguing about why such a choice of title should matter." This argument can be applied to either side of the argument, and in fact the reason COMMONNAME was developed is because it is presumably the COMMONNAME that is most in the interest of the reader.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:27, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed, even the discussion regarding transgender people is rooted in WP:COMMONNAME. Personally, I know who Cat Stevens and Muhammad Ali are, but I've only heard Yusuf Islam on Wikipedia and I've only heard Cassius Clay from Wikipedia and because I visited a museum where he was covered. So the policy passes the sanity check in those two cases. In cases of transgender individuals I'm not sure which name is correct (my intuitions are less clear, in part because I know so little of transgender matters), which is why I'm seeking revision to policy - so we can be more clear and precise. CaseyPenk (talk) 17:41, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * But isn't the purpose of an encyclopedia to spread knowledge. If it can teach us that Cat Stevens name is now Yusuf Islam (I had no idea of this before either) then that is a good thing isn't it? --Space simian (talk) 19:28, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * True, but WP:NOTADVOCATE. CaseyPenk (talk) 19:37, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. You hear about Cat Stevens because he is notable. You go to Wikipedia and find an article about him and learn that he eventually changed his name to Yusuf Islam. However, if you go to Wikipedia and type in Cat Stevens and get taken to an article titled Yusuf Islam, your first thought is that you are in the wrong place. DPRoberts534 (talk) 19:41, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If you believe article titles are not a big deal, I suggest you propose demoting this policy (Article titles) to a guideline or even an essay. But I think that many people take this matter very seriously. CaseyPenk (talk) 17:35, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * "Defer to my preferred title or else it means you're a bigot," flies in the face of Assume good faith. The discussion should be about the arguments in favor of each proposal. Goading people into flamewars would be very bad for Wikipedia. We can have a really good discussion on the merits of the arguments if we try. The difference between the naming of Muhammad Ali and Cat Stevens (and Mike Tyson rather than Malik Abdul Aziz) seem to me to reflect editors actually trying to thoughtfully engage naming criteria. Engaging those arguments is more effective strategy to build consensus for change than labeling those who disagree as bigots. --JamesAM (talk) 03:19, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

A reminder
I met a traveler from an antique land Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone Stand in the desert... Near them, on the sand, Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown, And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command, Tell that its sculptor well those passions read Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things, The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed; And on the pedestal these words appear: My name is Ozymandius, King of Kings, Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair! Nothing beside remains. Round the decay Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare The lone and level sands stretch far away. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:05, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Borrow that from yoda's wisdom? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:10, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * So, care to explain why we are being reminded that even great works inevitably return to dust? Cam94509 (talk) 19:12, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I tried to find an essay on WP:NIHILISM, but apparently we don't think about that question much. CaseyPenk (talk) 19:16, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I find it useful to read this poem, anytime I'm engaged in some epic thing, to remind myself that "this too shall pass"; something you think is so incredibly important, will be, in the fullness of time, just more sand in the desert.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:23, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. It's actually one of my favorite poems (or at least, one of the few that I both recognize and recognize the meaning of) I just wasn't quite sure what you were trying to get across. Cam94509 (talk) 19:29, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * In general you're probably right, although for transgender people and possibly others (such as religious converts) I think this can be a very, very important issue that we need to get right. CaseyPenk (talk) 19:32, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * That sounds like a nice sound-bite, but it's simply not true. Qworty brutalized BLPs of writers he didnt' like for years, without sanction, and the cleanup effort to undo what Qworty did is still going on, at a snails-pace. I think people are confusing our role with the role of the media. Ultimately, it may be important to a trans person what the NY Times calls them, but it's probably more important how people address them to their face. If our article title (just the title!) is "wrong" for a month or 2 months or 6 months, that doesn't even rank at the BOTTOM of the list of bad shit that has been perpetrated against BLPs in the past. As another example, Amanda Filipacchi caused a major media shitstorm when she accused wikipedia of being sexist because we ghettoized women into categories - and guess what? There are still by my estimate tens of thousands of bios which are categorized in ways which the media/twitterverse called "sexist". But everyone moved on to a new debate. Trust me - this too shall pass...--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:12, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Regardless of who would be harmed, or even if no one would be harmed, our policy is still vague. Most perceptibly, "and the most common has problems." That vagueness will lead us to re-hash the Manning debate if we don't figure it out. CaseyPenk (talk) 20:45, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The problem is that "most commonly used" isn't something that can be quantified. The real cause of the "Manning debate" was that people didn't follow the normal procedure for name changes (we first note the change in the text... then, once more sources use the new name, we propose changing the title).  Instead, people tried to force a change.  Within seconds of Manning's announcement, people rushed to Wikipedia and changed the title (and every "he" to "she").  This set off a backlash, which led to a counter backlash, etc.  If those wanting the change had been willing to wait (even a few days) for the sources to catch up to reality, the entire thing could have been avoided.  Those who desired the change could have pointed to sources and made a reasonable argument that the COMMONNAME had changed (or at least was in the process of changing) to "Chelsea".
 * There is no need to change our policies... they work. It's just that sometimes they intentionally work slowly and deliberately. Blueboar (talk) 01:49, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I have a different take (on the patience issue):
 * Assuming good faith, the intial change was because people had a sincere and colorable BLP concern. If there were no BLP concern, it would have quickly reverted back with a SNOW.
 * There was a backlash against the move, but it was in the form of: "how can you possibly say there is a BLP concern -- you're destroying the wiki."
 * That led to a backlash of "how can you possibly be so insensitive - you're deliberately hurting someone"
 * So,
 * Instead, why wasn't the response to the move: "Ok, I see your sincere concern, but in balancing the issues and policies the old name still works, and here's why . . . but there is no imminent danger of BLP harm, with the new title, so lets discuss it, until we can work it out -- in the meantime we can see how the world changes.
 * So, the call for patience would then be on the move-back side, but no one was going to possibly be harmed in the meantime -- and the worst would be a days at the new title and the article would not be perfect (but most articles aren't perfect). Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:00, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Alanscottwalker, "but no one was going to possibly be harmed in the meantime" -- I agree, but some vocal editors expressed the opinion that it would cause BLP damage (what damage, exactly, it would cause, I'm not sure). Even Jimbo, who has been adamantly supportive of the Chelsea title, admitted that there was no harm incoming. No one's going to die over the page title. CaseyPenk (talk) 00:07, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I have not made myself clear. There was a sincere concern that the old title would cause harm.  So, leave it at the new title, while that is worked out. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:12, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * By old title I assume you mean Bradley. In which case, most of us agreed there was no substantive harm done with Bradley. CaseyPenk (talk) 00:16, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes. But we can't reach that overall conclusion, at the beginning of the discussion. At the beginning of the discussion, we seek to avoid the possible harm. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:22, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * In general, yes, but editors (at least myself) don't typically think about the title being the most harmful aspect (unless it's an egregious title that they've never used, such as "fdsfdsgdf" (random keyboard typing). And I think different editors have different views on using BLP as a trump card -- I think all but obvious BLP complaints have to be deliberate and well thought out. I don't think a knee jerk reaction is generally necessary. If it were, I would go off blanking articles about topics I find offensive the minute I stumbled upon them. We will cause some offense in simply relaying what reliable sources report. That's the nasty thing about the sources sometimes. CaseyPenk (talk) 00:29, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes. That's what discussion is for, to think about things we have not thought about.  It's most unlikely that anyone would get away with blanking non-living biographical material at all - or doing so willy-nilly with any material. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:37, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I think we need to give the Manning title topic a bit of breathing room, and come back to it in a month as advised by the closing admins. Which is really about that article and not this policy, but it's good guidance in general. CaseyPenk (talk) 00:42, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Right, the policy issue is what can we do with policy where someone makes a substantive BLP concern issue edit - and then everyone (meaning all of experienced editors, incl. admins) knows what to do and expect - at the start. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:50, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm confused - the article stayed at Chelsea during the discussion. The discussion didnt reach consensus to move, so the default was to revert back to the original title. Now sources are changing, even about 5 by my count today, so I'm guessing be end of sept there will be a clear majority for Chelsea.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 00:57, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Right 1) my policy concern is with the next blow-up months in the future and not with the past or this article -- this is after-action analysis; 2) there was allot of angst/anger/whatever that the article, during the discussion, stayed as you describe - but there wouldn't have been if everyone just knew, yah that's what we do, as a matter of process, in this type of situation. Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:06, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Seemed sort of ridiculous to claim BLP emergency when every news agency in the world was still using Bradley. --Space simian (talk) 07:18, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * OK. But "seemed sort of" needs to be viewed in light of 'could be wrong about that.' Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:25, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Absolutely, which is why the page remained at 'Chelsea Manning' and editors instead asked why it was a BLP emergency, when it became clear it was not people got upset. More so when people discovered that the involved admins were friends in the meat world and that at least one of them were giving interviews to the media (that mischaracterized the discussion btw).--Space simian (talk) 12:55, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * But if procedurally, everyone understood "became clear" is an overall conclusion that will be determined at the summing up, then they can just relax and make their arguments about that. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:26, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I still see three problems: --Space simian (talk) 16:34, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If people belive Wikipedia can be taken advantage of to promote a cause, even if noble, it undermine Wikipedia's credibility as a neutral encyclopedia.
 * The fact that Manning's bio was turned into a circus in order to promote a cause is also a BLP concern, even if we support the cause, taking advantage of a living persons biography that way is neither responsible nor respectful.
 * If the BLP policy is abused as a trump card the next time, when there really is a BLP emergency, Wikipedia might not react as fast and determined as it should.
 * Promote a cause is a rather broad claim to make (except in the 'everything is a cause' sense), when the claim is psychological harm to a living person. Wikipedia's cause, of attempting to write a tertiary source (often imperfectly -- how could it not be) in real time is balanced against that potential for harm.
 * The abuse of policy/abuse of person issues need to be addressed with tact and seriousness of consideration, so as not to become a circus.
 * What trumps what is a matter that is determined overall at the end of the discussion -- the provisional editorial position on BLP issues, in the meantime should be 'do no harm' -- and in discussion soberly take a living person's 'human dignity into account.' (from the Foundation Resolution)-- Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:46, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Proposal
The debate above has been helpful in hammering out some of the outlines of what would make sense. It seems that editors generally favor a change that would clarify the existing policy without carving out highly-specific exceptions for particular situations.

As such, I propose changing the following statement: "When there are several names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others."

To this: When there are multiple common names for a subject, all of them used frequently in reliable sources, and one of those names has problems, it is permissible (and may be preferable) to choose one of the other names. Examples of names that have problems include, but are not limited to:
 * Former personal names, when the subject has stated a preference for a new name (for example, Cassius Clay, the former name of Muhammad Ali)
 * Names of entities such as buildings and sports teams that have had their names officially changed by their owners (for example, St. John's Redmen, the former name of the St. John's Red Storm)
 * Names that have become used less frequently because they are widely considered offensive (for example, negerboll, another name for chokladboll)

Thoughts? CaseyPenk (talk) 20:57, 3 September 2013 (UTC).

Updated 21:14, 3 September 2013 (UTC). Updated 21:31, 3 September 2013 (UTC). Updated CaseyPenk (talk) 21:52, 3 September 2013 (UTC) Updated CaseyPenk (talk) 21:56, 3 September 2013 (UTC) Updated CaseyPenk (talk) 22:05, 3 September 2013 (UTC) Updated CaseyPenk (talk) 22:10, 3 September 2013 (UTC) Updated CaseyPenk (talk) 22:36, 3 September 2013 (UTC) Updated CaseyPenk (talk) 23:01, 3 September 2013 (UTC) Updated CaseyPenk (talk) 01:21, 4 September 2013 (UTC) Updated CaseyPenk (talk) 01:33, 4 September 2013 (UTC) Updated CaseyPenk (talk) 02:15, 4 September 2013 (UTC) Updated CaseyPenk (talk) 02:33, 4 September 2013 (UTC) Updated CaseyPenk (talk) 02:40, 4 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Rather than saying "it is perfectly reasonable", I would say "it is permissible", or perhaps even "it may be preferable". bd2412  T 21:08, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm leaning toward "it is permissible," because it is more precise (permission is a much more precise concept than reasonableness) and because it is neutral ("preferable" starts down the slippery slope toward "required," and I don't think "may" is a good word to include in policy that's supposed to be more-or-less definitive). Great suggestion, and I've made the change in the proposed wording. CaseyPenk (talk) 21:14, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Although, just making it permissible does not suggest that we should use it. It seems like at least some editors want to favor the name-without-problems. Should we favor it or just make it one of the options? I see the value in saying "may be preferable," because it nudges toward the names that are less problematic, and that's sort of the goal. CaseyPenk (talk) 21:23, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * We could say both - "it is permissible, and may be preferable, to choose one of the other names". The "and" makes it clear that it is not required. bd2412  T 21:25, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * This seems a good change to me; I have no particular preference over the exact wording of "permissible" versus "preferable" etc. —me_and 21:43, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * A couple of issues.
 * Keeping in "fairly" common is important. While it doesn't imply a hidebound rule, it should help avoid the situation where a person argues that whereas a purportedly "problematic" name has 14,000 appearances in reliable source, the target has 100, so it's also "common". This should help foster some measure of proportionality to parsing the section.
 * It should be fairly common "in reliable sources", with reliable source possibly linked.
 * We should consider adding (as we already have for changes of organizations names): "Common sense can be applied – if a person changes his or her name, it is reasonable to consider the usage since the change."
 * Very minor nit: pejorative should be singular, i.e., not "pejoratives".
 * --Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 21:44, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the suggestions. I think "fairly common" is a weaker standard than "common." "Fairly common" could include almost anything (even things with a few hundred hits). Can you think of any language that's more demanding, such as "highly common" but not quite that extreme? Maybe considerably common, or significantly common?
 * WP:COMMONNAME already states that "common" means "common in reliable sources," so we don't need to repeat that here. I pulled out just the relevant phrase but when you look at it in context it's clear what "common" means.
 * We already do consider name changes as special - the policy already states "If the name of a person, group, object, or other article topic changes, then more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change."
 * Changed that. CaseyPenk (talk) 21:52, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * With "fairly", what I'm getting at is proportionality. Maybe we need to imply it (or directly state it) in a different way, but that example I gave, of 14,000 verses 100, begs to be resolved by something in the language. As to repeating "in reliable sources", we have a constant problem with people not understanding this and it should be reiterated ad nauseum.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 22:12, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The wording is clunky, but this phrasing is much more specific about what "common" means, removing any need to guess: "When a large number of reliable sources refer to a subject using a given name, but that name has problems, it is permissible (and may be preferable) to choose a different name also used by a large number of reliable sources." CaseyPenk (talk) 22:35, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I had to reread what you typed two times as it is a bit confusing:

"When there are several names for a subject, all of them common, and one of the names has problems (Which one?), it is permissible, and may be preferable, to choose one of the other names....."


 * Just think it should be reworded somehow. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:49, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree it is wordy. Could you clarify exactly what phrases you find to be particularly confusing? It sounds like "one of the names has problems" may not be completely clear at first? CaseyPenk (talk) 22:02, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I changed "several names for a subject, all of them common" to "multiple common names for a subject." What do you think? CaseyPenk (talk) 22:06, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * how about: "When there are several common names for a subject and one of the most common names has problems it is permissible, and may be preferable, to choose one of the other names....." ? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:07, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Multiple works too I think "and one of the most common names has problems" should be added though. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:08, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Smoother wording. I am concerned about the loss of precision by saying "common names" rather than "fairly common" or some qualifier like that. CaseyPenk (talk) 22:10, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I say "multiple" because multiple means 2+ whereas several might imply 3+. CaseyPenk (talk) 22:11, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * BTW, why do you prefer "one of the most common names has problems" to "one of the names has problems"? CaseyPenk (talk) 22:12, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Multiple is fine then =). I just put up an example as I feel the wording "and one of the names has problems" should be clarified is all. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:13, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, understandable. The policy should be as precise and clear as possible. Thank you for the feedback. CaseyPenk (talk) 22:16, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Welcome, hopefully at least something can be put into place. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:20, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Knowledgekid87, I clarified the wording at the beginning of the sentence and tested out changing "one of the most common names has problems" to "one of those names has problems." The "those" should help with clarity, and it avoids us having to repeat "more/most common," but I realize it still might not be totally clear. I'm trying to make the wording as smooth and non-redundant as possible but also make it very obvious what we're trying to say. Let me know what you think. CaseyPenk (talk) 23:09, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I have some quibbles and squabbles. First, the word "names" appears in both bullet points, yet in the first it seems clear it is referring only to names of people and in the second only to names of non-people. It might be better to say "personal names" in the first bullet to make it clear.

Second, "the subject has indicated preference". Shouldn't that be "indicated a preference"?

Third, the very act of changing one's name is to indicate that the new name is preferred. No one changes their name and then says "keep using the old name". So I would want to strengthen the claim to say something like "Former names, when the subject has stated a preference that the former name not be used".

Fourth, "Names widely considered to be pejorative" is not strong enough. I would phrase it like this: "Names that were officially changed or that have become used less frequently because they are widely considered to be pejorative".

Fifth, WP:COMMONNAME offers a list of 14 different examples to illustrate what it is saying. I think that one or two examples for each bullet would help. Muhammad Ali might be a good example for bullet point 1. St. John's Red Storm and Nanking Massacre might be good examples of the two parts I have suggested for bullet 2. 99.192.74.67 (talk) 01:13, 4 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * "Officially" sounds a bit too close to WP:OFFICIAL (i.e. legally changed). It may be a bit wordier, but something more like "where an individual has announced a change of their name". bd2412  T 01:25, 4 September 2013 (UTC)


 * 1, changed to "personal names" Many entities can change their name and state a preference, such as stadiums, events, etc. (although such entities cannot voice an opinion)
 * 2, changed
 * 3, changed There are cases in which the subject does not strongly prefer one side or the other - for example, with Private Manning, Chelsea's lawyer said "Bradley" would still be used, although Manning prefers to be known as "Chelsea." Hence, the criteria that the subject prefers the new name, even if they don't completely disavow the old one.
 * 4 -- how do you determine an "official" name? What if the subject has no official name, as in the Nanking Massacre?
 * 5 -- this is the one that presents some difficulties. Including examples would seem to suggest that we changed those article names specifically because of this policy, when in fact those titles predated this policy and were probably more common in reliable sources anyways. The Nanking Massacre one basically makes sense, but again, who says the Rape of Nanjing name was used less frequently because it was a pejorative? There are probably a multitude of reasons for historians moving away from the Rape term. CaseyPenk (talk) 01:26, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I separated name changes out from becoming-used-less-often-because-pejorative. They seem like two clear-cut, well-defined cases. CaseyPenk (talk) 01:28, 4 September 2013 (UTC)


 * (1) No, entities like schools, buildings, and even sports teams cannot state a preference, nor are they the kinds of things that can have a preference, but wait for point 4 for more on this....
 * (2) :-)
 * (3) Ok
 * (4) When I say "names that were officially changed" I am thinking of schools, buildings, and sports teams. These things do not change their own names. Someone in an official position to name them does it. So the University administration at St. John's were the people who officially changed the sports teams' name. The "or that have become used less frequently" was meant for things that do not have an official name beyond what we happen to call it, like the Nanking Massacre.
 * (5) "Including examples would seem to suggest that we changed those article names specifically because of this policy" - I disagree. Re-read the text you are proposing. It says nothing about "changing" the name of articles. Your proposal is about how to name articles in the first place. It certainly will have consequences for cases where a change is proposed, but that is not what the text reads. Furthermore, it must read this way (as opposed to be about changes) because we want to cover cases where an article is being created for the first time as well. As for the specific Nanking example, I think it is a good one, but if you think there is some doubt that the name is less used because it might offend, then a different example could be used.. 99.192.74.67 (talk) 02:01, 4 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)


 * Thanks to Space simian above, we already have an alternative example to Nanking. The Swedish chokladboll used to be called "negerboll", but, according to it's Wikipedia page, "whether or not negerboll is the appropriate term has been the subject of media debate". 99.192.74.67 (talk) 02:14, 4 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)


 * 1 and 4, you're correct that entities cannot change their own names. I separated personal name changes from entity name as two different bullet points, because they're two separate concepts and pejorative names are still a third.
 * 5, good point. I do think the examples help clarify what we're trying to say. I came up with a few examples I've heard from the debate over the past few days. Good idea.
 * What do you think about the proposal now? CaseyPenk (talk) 02:18, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, some names are controversial, such as Octo-mom, even if they are not necessarily used less frequently. I think pejoratives can be "problematic" regardless of whether they're in style or not. We still have to go by reliable sources, so it's not like we would make up some contrived name for Octo-mom. CaseyPenk (talk) 02:22, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Star Wars Kid is another good example. It is a nickname bestowed by society, and on record as being offensive to the subject, whose real name has been verifiably reported. It is not inherently pejorative, but its use with respect to this subject is. bd2412  T 02:26, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, yes. I think if we had a page on the actor himself, we would call the page "Ghyslain Raza." But we don't, so we're off the hook from deciding. (: CaseyPenk (talk) 02:32, 4 September 2013 (UTC)


 * CaseyPenk, I think it looks good, but I am not sure MWP is a good example. I believe he is on record (like Cat Stevens is) saying he has no problem with people using the old name. Ali is a much stronger example because he did call it his "slave name". BD2412, SWK might be a good candidate for a title change under this proposal, but is not a good example to use for the policy because, in fact, the article does bear the potentially pejorative name, so does not show an example of using something else. 99.192.74.67 (talk) 02:31, 4 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * Yes, that is what I meant it as - an example of something that should be changed under this proposed policy. bd2412  T 02:32, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Would we really want to retitle the SWK article? Since the article is about the video, which had only one common name. CaseyPenk (talk) 02:35, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No, you are right. It is not a bio page about Ghyslain Raza, if it was SWK would be a horrible title indeed, but since it is about the video I do not think it has to be changed.--Space simian (talk) 08:25, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, yes, the "slave name" part makes it a very fitting example. CaseyPenk (talk) 02:35, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * "Octo-mom" might be a better example. It is easier to understand since it is in English and more universal. 'Chokladboll' has been criticised for being an expression of "political correctness" by some which avoiding "octo-mom" can't be accused of (I would think, I'm not always sure what people mean when they talk about political correctness though?).--Space simian (talk) 13:58, 4 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I changed the wording surrounding pejoratives, because really that case is about any name that causes offense (e.g. negerboll). Some names (e.g. Octo-mom) are not technically pejoratives but are still widely considered offensive. Thoughts? CaseyPenk (talk) 02:46, 4 September 2013 (UTC)


 * My current thoughts are that this looks pretty good so far, but I do have one objection: I'd very much like to make sure that we don't run into the problems we ran into that caused us to start this discussion again, so I'd like to add a second example for name changes where the person changing their name is a trans person. Maybe I'm over thinking things, but I'd like to make it explicitly clear that trans peoples name changes should be affected by this, too, that way we can avoid firestorms like the one that happened at Bradley Manning. Am I over thinking things, or is this a reasonable thought? Cam94509 (talk) 05:12, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * That works for me, for two very basic reasons: (1) It's a good move - it helps clarify the policy for future cases, which will undoubtedly occur and (2) It's not a bad move - it is one in a list of examples and as such is not an exception to policy. CaseyPenk (talk) 05:15, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I disagree. Why are we changing a policy that works based on one event?  We don't need to be ahead of what the reliable sources are stating.  Bradley will likely change to Chelsea due to the move of the sources.   GregJackP   Boomer!   05:33, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * We're not being ahead of all of the reliable sources, we're just not waiting until a majority of them to catch up before we follow the front runners in cases where people would stand to be hurt if we don't. Also, we're not really changing policy at this point as much as we are clarifying existing text in a policy to make a line from the text of the policy ultimately not completely useless. Cam94509 (talk) 05:54, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Per the proposal, each name under consideration must be "used frequently in reliable sources," so if we're 'following the front runners' that just means we're following a sizable portion (say, 40%), of the reliable sources. CaseyPenk (talk) 06:06, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * 40% is actually way to high. I'd think 10% would be sufficient. (Because the most common name may not even be the name used by 40% of the population.) Cam94509 (talk) 06:12, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * In any case, we're not renegotiating the threshold at which a name becomes common -- that's already determined in WP:COMMONNAME and won't change. CaseyPenk (talk) 06:46, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Certainly. I just wanted to make sure that nobody got the impression that 40% was some kind of magic number. Cam94509 (talk) 07:03, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, let's just go with 42%. CaseyPenk (talk) 07:07, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Seems like a pretty good answer for a lot of difficult questions, actually. If I only I knew what they were... Cam94509 (talk) 07:12, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * 42 is a number commonly used as a joke. I was hinting that any number is arbitrary and that we should therefore not decide on a threshold. CaseyPenk (talk) 14:37, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

"Clarifying existing text" and using a figure of 40%, much less 10% is not a change? Hardly. It is a drastic change to the existing policy, as evidenced by the statement that "we're just not waiting...." The existing policy states "usage in a significant majority of English-language reliable sources" and this proposal purports to change that to a minority of sources. If we used the figure of 10%, we would have to change Cat Stevens to Yusuf Islam. It requires that editors use a WP:CRYSTALBALL since we would be "waiting until a majority of them to catch up...." What is being proposed will have unintended consequences that may be detrimental to the project. We should not change the policy. GregJackP  Boomer!   10:34, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * We were bandying about figures based on our personal impressions -- none of the figures are official, and we're not going to specify a threshold. There is no threshold and we're not making one. As always, different editors will interpret the threshold differently. CaseyPenk (talk) 14:34, 4 September 2013 (UTC)


 * To clarify, it's a stretch to call it a policy change. It's a clarification of the existing policy. The current policy already suggests consideration of alternatives to problematic names -- it just doesn't specify what kinds of names are problematic. This proposal makes the policy less ambiguous so editors know how to apply it (and aren't left scratching their heads as they were in the Manning debate).
 * Furthermore, this isn't just one situation -- the examples in the proposal show that this question comes up in many other articles. The transgender-specific bit was just suggested; all the other wording involves more general cases. And nor is the transgender question a one-off deal -- there will be more articles about transgender people, and we will have to struggle through the same issues if we don't have clear policy. As new situations come up the nuances of our policy needs to reflect our best practices. The core ideas stay the same, but we explain how the policy is applicable in different domains.
 * When I look back on the Manning debate, I am frustrated for a number of reasons. Among them: we could have avoided the entire debate and spared many hours and hard feelings if we had simply clarified what we already have on the books. I'm not too beat up about it, though: we have an opportunity here. Hindsight is 20/20, which is why I for one want to be proactive given the lessons we've learned. CaseyPenk (talk) 06:03, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hopefully our reasoning makes sense, GregJackP. Let us know what you think. CaseyPenk (talk) 06:50, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * As I noted above, this isn't a clarification, it is a major change that is unwarranted, unwise, and unneeded. Regards,  GregJackP   Boomer!   10:34, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * When adding such examples that singles out specific groups it is important to make sure the exception/rule itself can not be seen as pejorative (now or in the future) which often end up to be the case even if well intended.--Space simian (talk) 08:56, 4 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I am against this change for several reasons. "and one of those names has problems" is the most useful wording for a policy. Guidance for what problems are should reside in the naming conventions (At guidelines).
 * In general that's true, but we don't have naming conventions for some of these topics (such as LGBT people). There is a proposal at Naming conventions (identity) but that's all I've seen. CaseyPenk (talk) 15:00, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * This is because comments like "stated a preference for a new name" inevitably lead to the question "why just new names"? This leads us back to the "official name" verses common name argument. There is no "problem" with "new names" and such changes are covered by common usage and the sentence about that starts " If the name of a person, ... changes, then more weight ...". "Names of entities ... had their names officially changed by their owners". No it depends on several things and there is no bias in favour of the official name. Take for example Burma and Ivory Coast to name two obvious examples which would be affected by this proposed change. "widely considered offensive" this is affected by ENGVAR as well as a vocal minorities for political correctness reasons. If a word is becoming used less frequently, for whatever reason, then it is usual to go with the more modern usage (see for example the name of European Continental kings). In the case of the third example "chokladboll" (something I had never heard of until read here) of how does one know that is derived from the name of a person from Niger and not directly from the Latin word for the colour? How does one know that the name widely offensive (as probably like me most have never heard or it)? Nothing in the example article indicates it naming origin and the example the Met and nitty gritty should be a cautionary tail,. Slang word usage changes see for example the fuss of the use of gay to mean naff, (which is a sort of circle). The use of the word fag in London is not about the same thing as the use of the word fag in New York and what is a common insult in one country may not be the common insult in another. -- PBS (talk) 11:26, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The point of the 'negerboll' example was that it was not meant or considered offensive but that it was obvious to most that it could be perceived that way and that there was not really any good reason for not using 'chokladboll' instead. It might not be an ideal example since no-one outside of Sweden is likely to be familiar with the debate, the pastry or realise how Swedens history and culture (e.g. not many immigrants from Africa) is different from e.g. the USA.--Space simian (talk) 12:47, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I think the main change that I would be comfortable with is something along the lines of the following:
 * You have established use of a second name in reliable sources, though this name is for now less common, even in sources *after* the new name was announced (if it was more common, you could just appeal to commonname). You must be able to make a reasonable argument that the secondary name has received at least 10% of the frequency of the "primary" common name in reliable sources.
 * The subject or owner of the thing in question has publicly stated that this is a new name for this thing (the name could be brand new, or an old name the subject is reverting to)
 * The subject or owner of the thing in question has publicly asked the media to cease using the old name (or has informed of this preference via OTPS email)
 * If those conditions are met, the second/new name could be used as the title instead.
 * Note that, per these conditions, both Burma and Ivory Coast would be moved to Myanmar and Cote d'Ivoire, and of course Bradley would become Chelsea, and Cat Stevens would move to Yusuf, and Republic of Ireland would move to Ireland. I note that most of those discussions were large, contentious discussions, so changing a policy in a way that would allow those to be moved would cause a lot of angst. But such criteria above are probably the only way to do so neutrally, and without getting into a relative-ranking of harm - instead we just trust the subject's own judgement. This of course becomes problematic when we're referring to dead people, who can't express a preference, in which case perhaps we would look at the preference of their estate? What about long-dead people, who have no estate or living relatives? Anyway, it's not perfect, but it's a start. Unfortunately, I'm afraid such changes would not get broad consensus.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:03, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

A few quick responses to some of the contributions since I last checked in. First, Cam94509: "I'd like to add a second example for name changes where the person changing their name is a trans person." I disagree. One of the strengths, as I see if, of the proposed revision is that it clearly does cover such a case while pointing out through the Ali example that the issue is not so narrow. By putting in an example of a transgender person it opens the revision to the accusation that it was only made to address this one particular case. A specific reference to a transgender person is not needed.

Second, PBS: "why just new names?" This is a good question. It need not be new for the person to state a preference for it. For example, a woman who took her husband's name when getting married, but then has a nasty divorce and wants to go back to her former name (eg; Roseanne Barr, who became Roseanne Arnold then went back to Barr). So maybe "when the subject has stated a preference for a new name" could be reworded as "when the subject has been known by more than one name and has stated a preference for one of them".

Third, Space simian: Octomon vs the Chokladboll - Both are good examples, but Chokladboll is better since there is evidence that people have used the term less often because of concerns that it is offensive, which is ideal as an example. I am not sure if anyone has really stopped using "Octomom" because it is thought to be pejorative. But also, "Octomom" is better covered by bullet point one, since whether or not she is offended by the name might be the relevant question. If she likes the name, then there is no problem with using it. It is also a better example to use since it fully illustrates the idea that some things have names without having an "official" name. About the worry that "chokladboll" is a peculiarly Swedish example that many might not know about is also not a problem. The example provides a link people can follow to learn why it is a good example and by having one non-English example it emphasizes the scope of the possible problem. So I like chokladboll as an example. 99.192.48.26 (talk) 14:48, 4 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)


 * "and the most common has problems" - by whose decision does it "[have] problems" though? I'd suggest that because redirects can all lead to Rome then we should put the article at the one *chosen/preferred by the subject of the article* (where we are in BLP areas. Countries and buildings are a different matter.) WP is here to educate and inform, not to record ancient historical abuses, indeed 'youngsters' learning in these threads that Ali was as world-wide famous under his former name as he is now have been educated in that very fact. Let's be nice to the people who are subjects of our articles and call them what they want to be called - they rarely asked for the publicity and we should be friendly to our source material. --AlisonW (talk) 16:53, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Per the above, would you support moving Anders Behring Breivik to Commander Breivik? He has asked that he be addressed in that fashion.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No, because we don't include titles in article names (eg Queen X / King Y/ Sir Z) --AlisonW (talk) 21:11, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * AlisonW -- Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge? Charles, Prince of Wales? CaseyPenk (talk) 21:20, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Um... yeah. Even Queen_Victoria raised her royal eyebrows at that one. In any case, who cares? We call some guy "Metta World Peace" - so why not "Commander Kenobi"? Check this one - a GITMO guard, who converted, and renamed himself as Mustafa Abdullah - but guess where his article sits? Terry Holdbrooks! Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander - if we just go by subject's preference and ignore RS usage, then why *not* countries? Why not building? Disasters? And criminals - my god, they would have a field day! Here's a recent one: [Son of Sam]] aka David Berkowitz has apparently been reborn, and would now like to be called Son of Hope - should we move his article? His conversion happened in 1987, so I guess Wikipedia is being a jerk for, um, ~26 years here? --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:32, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Gonna bang the "specific small policies" drum again here. If instead of "legislating" broadly and catching the unintended, unanticipated consequences as they come up, legislate narrowly; when a new group comes up that may merit special consideration of a similar kind, run the legislation process again. Would support "people making a relgious conversion that publically reject their old name" as an initial category though. We can use our brains well enough to recognise the case of "my real name Jesus Christ". Chris Smowton (talk) 09:25, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * (ec) "by whose decision does it '[have] problems' though?" - By the collected wisdom of Wikipedia editors. That's the only way it ever has worked and the only way it can work. If someone sees a problem, they mention it, and then there is discussion to determine how big a problem it is. "Let's be nice to the people who are subjects of our articles and call them what they want to be called" Sometimes famous people have serious mental health issues. Comic actor Tony Rosato was institutionalized because of a condition that caused him to believe that his wife and child were abducted and replaced by impostors. David Berkowitz thought a dog ordered him to kill woman. Jim Jones claimed to be the reincarnation of Jesus. So what if a notable person publicly declares "I am Jesus Christ returned to earth. Please use that name to address me"? It would seem reasonable not to rename the article in such a case.


 * If crazy people don't worry you, what about funny people? Stephen Colbert likes to periodically fuck with Wikipedia, getting viewers to change the page for "Reality" to say "Reality has become a commodity" and has told people to solve the problem of elephants becoming extinct by just changing the number that the Wikipedia page says. Richard Herring in his podcasts sometimes asks guests to verify facts listed on their Wikipedia pages as "citation needed". He then tells people to cite the podcast for the information, which some people have done. Comedians like to mess with Wikipedia and make fun of it. So all you have to do is tell them that we have to name a page with whatever name they say they want us to you and next thing you know some comedian will declare that his new name is "Wikipedia is a pile of shit" and he wants to be addressed accordingly. If we are forced with no editorial oversight to accept that (and then change it back a month later when he has had his fun) we set ourselves up for problems.


 * The simple fact is that it is very rare right now (including for transgendered people) for Wikipedia to have article titles that are not the name the subject wishes. Other than Manning, is there any other? And that one will be changed soon in the usual way. Metta World Peace's article was still called "Ron Artest" for a month after he changed names, too. That's not an unusual or unreasonable time frame. 99.192.48.26 (talk) 18:09, 4 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)


 * I would be surprised to see reliable sources such as major media outlets referring to a notable person as "Jesus Christ returned to Earth", if that person declared it. By contrast, reliable sources now refer almost exclusively to Muhammad Ali, Metta World Peace, and Chaz Bono. We can prevent the kinds of problems that comedians like to engender by relying on usages actually adopted in some proportion of reliable sources, even if those sources are split. By the way, Chelsea Manning is not the only subject not referred to by their preferred nomenclature in their Wikipedia title; see Yusuf Islam (a.k.a. Cat Stevens) and Snoop Lion (a.k.a. Snoop Dogg). bd2412  T 18:24, 4 September 2013 (UTC)


 * BD2412, you are agreeing with me. So long as we have some editorial oversight on names, we don't have to worry about people who have mental health problems or comedians (is that two different groups? :-) That's my point. AlisonW had recommended a simple "use the name they say they want" policy. That way leads madness. As for Yusuf and Snoop Lion, I know that Yusuf has said he is Ok with people using "Cat Stevens" and I have seen Snoop interviewed since the name change and he did not seem to indicate that what name people used was a big deal for him either. So far as I know Manning is the only person who does not want the current Wikipedia page name used. 99.192.48.26 (talk) 18:36, 4 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * In that case, yes, I am entirely agreeing with you. bd2412  T 18:51, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Given that, per Space Simian, it would be difficult to do this in a manner that would be inoffensive, and you think the proposal is stronger the way it is currently written, I'm perfectly willing to go along with the current proposal. I'm willing to support a consensus that follows from the current text, given that it almost certainly does apply to trans people and is a probably a good policy in general. Cam94509 (talk) 17:58, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

No. The vernacular is always preferable as it is the most recognizable form. Self censorship is still censorship. The test of what title to use is simple; What do the preponderance of sources call the topic in question? Yes, give more weight to recent sources. Problem solved without a lot of touchy feely tea sessions or singing kumbaya around the camp fire.Two kinds of pork (talk) 20:36, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I doubt that. There was certainly a point at which Muhammad Ali was the most recognizable form, while a preponderance of sources were still using Cassius Clay. bd2412  T 21:05, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * There was? I would like to see the evidence.  The media informs the masses is rather my point.  He wasn't getting "Ali" out there all by himself.  Why make this complicated?Two kinds of pork (talk) 21:25, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Damien Cox, ‎Gord Stellick, '67: The Maple Leafs, Their Sensational Victory, and the End of an Empire (2009), p. 189: "In March 1966, the news broke that Ballard had cut a deal with Bob Arum, the lawyer for Main Bouts Inc., to hold a heavyweight fight between Ernie Terrell and Muhammad Ali, although most media outlets declined to acknowledge Ali's Muslim choices and continued to refer to him as Cassius Clay."
 * Andrew B. Lewis, The Shadows of Youth: The Remarkable Journey of the Civil Rights Generation (2009), p. 230: "A few weeks later Clay adopted the Muslim name Muhammad Ali, further increasing his notoriety. The New York Times refused to recognize his new name and continued to use Cassius Clay in its articles."
 * Mary Cross, 100 People Who Changed 20th-Century America (2013), page 510: "In 1964, the NOI replaced Ali's birth name, Cassius Clay, with the Islamic holy name of “Muhammad Ali,” a rare honor. Several competitors and members of the press refused to recognize the new name, however."
 * Gail Underwood Parker, It Happened in Maine, 2nd: Remarkable Events That Shaped History (2013), p. 114: "Announcer Addie used the name Muhammad Ali, but most reporters, including radio announcer Hodges, continued to refer to him as Cassius Clay. Some, including Ali's opponents, refused to use Ali's Muslim name for years."
 * Carrie Golus, Muhammad Ali (2006), p. 45: "But many reporters and editors continued to refer to him as “Cassius Clay” for years afterward."
 * There's the evidence. Cheers! bd2412  T 21:39, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi BD2412, I don't really want to debate the Cassius Clay move that wikipedia made back in 1964, but you assert "Muhammad Ali was the most recognizable form", but also recognize that the media wasn't buying it. What leads you believe MA was more recognizeable than Cassius Clay? -- (talk) 21:46, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm well aware that many in the media refused to use Ali in favor of Clay. But what was he commonly known as?  Did the kids at school and the talk at the water cooler indicate a preference?  I suspect the media influenced the peepul quite heavily.  And it is pretty much the only thing we have to go with in any case.  BTW, I wasn't being snippy and demanding you look that stuff up.Two kinds of pork (talk) 21:52, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

A third proposal
I was originally thinking of something along the lines of: That would be a rule only affecting people saying that new names are preferred but only if they have been accepted by at least some reliable sources? --Space simian (talk) 07:06, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If a person change name, and both the old name and the new name is fairly common, the new name is preferred even if it is less frequently used.


 * I don't like it. Kim Novak was a huge movie star, but has not made a film in over 20 years and is out of the spotlight now. This proposal says that if Kim Novak takes her husband's last name (Malloy) that the page should change location. That seems entirely unhelpful to most readers, even with redirects. Now you might want to say that if she did this that maybe the name would not be "used", but that might only be true if you try to limit the scope of what it means for a name to be "used". If a Kim Novak fansite starts using the new name, it's being used. The fansite need not be a "reliable" source in general, because it is certainly a reliable source on the question of whether or not the name is being "used".


 * There has been some talk in recent discussions of the importance of Wikipedia "educating" people and how even this discussion has helped educate some people about the fact that Muhammad Ali was once famous with a different name. But I think the time has come to start educating people that article titles are not statements about what the name of a person is. As an article title, people should learn to think of "Cat Stevens" as short for "the article about the person who is most well known by the name 'Cat Stevens'". That is what a title is saying and that sentence is both undoubtedly true and cannot possibly be taken as an insult to him or anyone else to say. Even when Prince went through a phase of not using his name he was often described accurately as "the artist formerly known as Prince". To use that phrase was not to continue to name him "Prince". 99.192.91.187 (talk) 14:10, 5 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)


 * That was my first reaction to the Manning MR as well: "people just do not understand Wikipedia policy on title selection", I thought, countless title controversies and especially the Manning MR have illustrated that. However, as an encyclopedia Wikipedia's goal is to educate people, if people does not get it we can either try to improve peoples understanding of wikipedia policy (not likely) or we can try to improve the policy so they do. Wikipedia is here for the readers so we have to try to minimize the risk of them misunderstanding. If I have to choose between a policy that leads to 'Cassius Clay' and 'Kim Novak' or one that leads to 'Muhammad Ali' and 'Kim Malloy' I would pick the latter because it can not be misunderstood to be derogatory and therefore minimizes harm, both to the subject and to Wikipedia. (Besides, I do not think a fan site would be considered a reliable source in that case, it is the frequency of use in sources that would be relevant to the article that counts). --Space simian (talk) 15:23, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The purpose of an article is to educate... but that is not the purpose of the article title. We definitely should educate our readers by noting that Kim Novak is now married and goes by the name "Kim Malloy", or that Manning has come out as Transgender and changed names in the process... but the place to educate our readers about this is in the text of the subject's bio article, not in the article title.
 * The purpose of a article title is not to educate... a title's purpose is threefold: 1) to distinguish one article topic from another... 2) to help readers searching for an article on a specific topic find it easily... and (to a lesser extent) 3) to allow readers and editors who are randomly surfing Wikipedia know what the article they land on is about. Novak is still best known by her maiden name.  Manning is somewhat in flux (with some sources still using "Brandley" and others making the switch to "Chelsea"... my take on it is that enough sources have made the switch that we should do so as well... but the important thing is that the decision is based on what sources do, and not our own POVs on the issue.)  Blueboar (talk) 17:06, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Where do we stand?
The discussion has veered off in a few different directions and I'm not sure where the sentiment actually lies. My main goal is clarify what "problems" means, however we do that. An idea I've been discussing with Obi-Wan Kenobi is that, rather than list out the problematic cases, to simply point the reader in the direction of where to find what would be problematic. We could direct the reader to the rest of the page (which covers controversial titles like Octomom) and the specific naming conventions (that cover topics such as royalty). Thoughts?

Also - there are a variety of possible ways to approach this, so I created a sandbox at Wikipedia talk:Article titles/COMMONNAME sandbox. Feel free to experiment with different wording as you see fit. CaseyPenk (talk) 00:11, 5 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I checked the sandbox. I don't see the point of proposal 2. It seems almost a non-change. Advising that people check things that already exist is not much help. But I like proposal 1. It seems a lot more helpful 99.192.79.196 (talk) 03:04, 5 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * The reason for proposal 2 is that proposal 1 has encountered a fair amount of option, so I wanted to offer something that's less controversial while still clarifying the policy. The point of proposal 2 is that it clarifies where the problems are defined in existing policy -- rather than leaving the editor to guess what "problems" means.
 * To be clear, I think the main problem with COMMONNAME as it stands is the ambiguity over "problems." Any way we can fix that is a step forward. CaseyPenk (talk) 03:19, 5 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, I'm still for trying to see if proposal 1 can get the support it needs. If the discussion goes toward talking about proposal 2, I'll just have a nap instead :-) 99.192.79.196 (talk) 03:39, 5 September 2013 (UTC) (99.192....)


 * Any ideas on how to move forward on proposal 1? The debate seems to have stalled a bit. And I would very much appreciate your support for proposal 2 if it comes to that, even if it's not your favorite. I still think it's a meaningful improvement on what's there now. CaseyPenk (talk) 03:42, 5 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Given the discussion was started at 20:57, 3 September 2013, 31 hours seems a bit rushed to start further than the above. Why not give it another 36? There is quite a bit to read and take in.
 * Also, where has the discussion been announced? Since this discussion was motivated by an issue of interest to strong partisans, the widest possible awareness of it should be brought to the larger community. I've never followed the Village Pumps much, but at least an announcement/notification there would seem warranted. Thanks. User:Carolmooredc  03:56, 5 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree that announcements would help get more input. I fear the arrival of the highly-motivated partisans of recent disputes. This proposal is Baby Bear, but there are lots of people who will fight to the death for Papa Bear or Mama Bear solutions. (Speaking of which, the article is really titled "The Story of the Three Bears"?) 99.192.79.196 (talk) 04:11, 5 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * I like the analogy. It does seem a bit bizarre that as soon as someone mentioned the word transgender a whole bunch of people arrived and criticized the proposal. Which is to say, this is highly partisan as Carol mentioned. I'm not sure if this is what you were getting at, but I think the proposal I put forth is relatively modest and not a drastic change -- it's a clarification of what's already there. CaseyPenk (talk) 04:46, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I suspect people are more interested in arguing about arguing than they are in wikipedia policy. --Space simian (talk) 07:13, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Announcements would be a good idea. I mentioned it on the Manning talk page, which will certainly have reached a fair number of partisans on both sides (which sort of inflames the debate; it might be nice to get some different perspectives). Thanks for the suggestion. Oh, and I like to do things quickly. If you ever see me edit articles I waste no time; I'm not hasty but I get things done as quickly as they can be. CaseyPenk (talk) 04:46, 5 September 2013 (UTC)


 * My question is: When do we take proposal 1 to a !vote? I'd rather at least give it a chance to fail on it's own if we can't get enough support for it, and if and only if it fails, move forward with the less powerful (and in my opinion, mostly irrelevant) proposal 2. I don't think it's necessarily time for that yet, as it might still flounder and fail, but what are we looking for before we take the step forward and actually try to get proposal 1 made into a formal thing? Cam94509 (talk) 05:41, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * We can do a survey / !vote any time. Let's wait and see if any more comments come in in the near future, and then we can put it up formally. Let me know once you think it's a good time, Cam94509. CaseyPenk (talk) 06:34, 5 September 2013 (UTC)


 * A point of curiosity about proposal #1: given that it doesn't spell out particular cases, does wiki do "caselaw"? By that I mean, if I wanted to move X to Y and used that text as a policy foundation, would that establish precedent such that future arguments over moving nearly-X to nearly-Y can cite that move as having essentially made case-policy? Chris Smowton (talk) 20:47, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Intuitively that makes sense, and naming from other articles can provide some helpful guidance, but you'll often hear pushback from users citing WP:OTHERSTUFF. Ultimately cases do not create policies; we don't go by precedent but by what's on the books (which itself changes). Furthermore, we don't do retroactive / grandfathering considerations; we go by current policy and don't consider what the policy "would have been" at the time the article was created. CaseyPenk (talk) 21:01, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * In a legal sense (although Wikipedia policies aren't laws), we follow civil law and not common law. CaseyPenk (talk) 21:04, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Although Wikipedia does not defer to precedents, WP:TITLE does list Consistency as one of its bases for determining a proper title; it can be argued that a certain result would yield greater consistency with titles of similarly situated articles. bd2412  T 01:52, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Continued discussion of proposals on the table

 * I've added a new proposal, #5. At this point, it would be great if contributors could take a look at the 5 options, and add any additional ones (or tweak wording - it's not policy yet, so be bold), until we get close to a change you would support. Ideally, I'd like to get this down to three options: (a) Do nothing (b) Change X and (c) Change Y - that way, when we open this up for an RFC we can present a few clear choices.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:30, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Given the current proposals, I have to ask: Does anyone support Proposition 1 over Proposition 5? Is there anything proposition 1 does that proposition 5 does not do? Also, does anyone support proposition 3 over proposition 5? Just wondering, because I like propositions 1 and 5, and I think 5 is arguably the better of the two of them. Cam94509 (talk) 22:26, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * 5 is more expansive, and more explicit about requiring a statement in RS about preferring a new name. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:49, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I see. I'm asking if anyone prefers 1 or 3 to option 5, because, if not, we can just focus on option 5 for now. Cam94509 (talk) 01:32, 6 September 2013 (UTC)


 * From my POV, the only two proposals worth talking about are P1 and P5. In general, I like them both. Bullet point 2 (BP2) from P1 seems to be dropped in P5. That seems to me to be a large omission that makes P1 preferable. BP2 of P5 would be covered by BP2 of P1 (a country is an "entity") if the word "owners" was changed. I didn't like using that word in the first place, so I like making that change to P1. BP3 of P5 is good, but could be covered in the "personal names" BP by making it "names of people or groups of people". My two main concerns with P5 are I am not sure the examples chosen are all good ones (but this is a minor point, not a fatal flaw) and I worry that the more detailed the proposal is the stronger the opposition from the "let's do nothing" folks might be. So I guess on the whole tweaking P1 so that, without making it much longer, it covers countries and groups of people more clearly would be my preferred choice. 99.192.57.25 (talk) 01:44, 6 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192...)
 * I made a proposal 6 along those lines. Feel free to edit it with different examples and such. CaseyPenk (talk) 01:52, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I admire the effort and the intention is good, but on first glance P6 is worse because it is longer. We've gone from 3 to 4 to 5 bullet points. I might try tomorrow to piece something together that is more concise. 99.192.57.25 (talk) 02:00, 6 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * Leave out Ivory Coast. That by itself is an entire can of worms that you don't want to open here. bd2412  T 02:09, 6 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree. Changing BP2 (of either P1 or P6) to say "Names of entities such as buildings and sports teams whose names have been officially changed" and leave out "owners" covers countries.99.192.57.25 (talk) 02:17, 6 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * I think we need to look Ivory Coast in the eye. The sources are rather close - Ivory Coast is perhaps 2x at most vs Côte d'Ivoire, and the govt has expressed a clear preference.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:19, 6 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Not as an example, no. The best examples are clear cases. Right now, Wikipedia's article is called "Ivory Coast", so it is actually a very poor example to use. It might be a candidate for a name change based on the revised guideline, but it is not (yet) an example at all. 99.192.57.25 (talk) 02:27, 6 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * True - I guess what I meant was, any policy we put forth should allow an (eventual) move of Ivory Coast - otherwise we're missing the point.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:50, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * the reason I removed the sports teams/buildings/organization is because the standard being proposed here is that a rename is not sufficient - there has to be a RS that says 'we prefer you call x vs y'. It's hard to see how going with commonname for a sports team, building or org could somehow hurt someone's feelings, and I can't think of a case where the owners came forth and caused a media issue over use of the old name. It would also mean we have to move big ben to elizabeth tower, which violates the heck out of commonname. As such, in those cases it's better to wait for commonname to catch up. These are meant to be exceptions to commonname, not 'anytime anything changes their name we follow blindly'. we may also want to quantify usage of most common vs target name - what do you think about target name being demonstrably at least 10% of most common - esp if we look post-name-change? That would ensure we are following at least some sources - frequently is just too vague. The examples can be debated but I do think it's useful to put forth several.. I think we should separate groups of ppl as we need to have special rules around how to know whether a group really wants to rename themselves, vs just a minority of that group.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:17, 6 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The teams and buildings idea came from examples I offered, including the St. John's example used in the BP. When I mentioned the examples in the first place they were all examples of entites whose names were changed because the old name was thought to be offensive. That last element has been lost in the BP wording. So perhaps saying "Names of entities such as buildings and sports teams whose names have been officially changed because their previous name was regarded as offensive" or something like that. 99.192.57.25 (talk) 02:30, 6 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * Yeah, changing the wording about the sports teams would relate back to the comment I made just below regarding the intention to "avoid offense" / honor WP:BLP. E.g. Red Storm, Washington Redskins (although the Redskins opposition is not exactly mainstream). It would make the different cases cohere more logically together and would cut out cases of thoughtless / attention-grabbing name changes. CaseyPenk (talk) 04:32, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It looks like proposal 5, with the teams/buildings now removed, is mostly focused on avoiding offense. Perhaps we could relate this back to WP:BLP? It seems like the main goal there is to respect the wishes of the subject / those who are generally "allowed" to speak on behalf of the subject. I would also note that many in the Manning move discussion cited BLP, so there's some sort of belief that WP:BLP extends to honoring the wishes of the subject (as in MOS:IDENTITY).
 * Regarding the 10% or whatever threshold, two concerns -- 10% seems quite low.. to me, that 10% can represent a whole lot of radical ideas that are most definitely not mainstream. I mean, the number of people who believe in Elvis conspiracy theories is probably way more than 10% of the population. Should we really give equal weight to a niche population like that? Should we start saying Elvis is still alive, just because 10% of the population has been convinced? What I'm getting at is that, in my view, 10% doesn't qualify as "common" per COMMONNAME.
 * I'm not so sure if we can / should quantify coverage like that. I personally think The New York Times should count for 25% of all RS in a formula, but others may attack it as biased and say it should count for 1% (vice versa with Fox News). Which sources are the most reliable? What's the weight of each? It seems like those are tricky questions we could avoid by being general and leaving it open to the interpretation of the editors. I had thrown out the 40% figure before, not because I think that should be a hard and fast rule, but because I think our proposed additions should only make a difference in edge cases, where the split is roughly 60-40 (as it has been in the Manning RS until the past few days). In other words, I think our proposal should only for a limited set of changes and not allow for really obscure names to become titles. Perhaps there's a different way we can describe the quantity of sources needed. Significant? Considerable? Modest? Extraordinary? High? Large? Wide? Heavy? CaseyPenk (talk) 04:41, 6 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I have not followed any of the discussion about percentages as it was introduced as a "for example". Any discussion about trying to quantify references in the policy is an extremely bad idea. Since it keeps coming up, let me say for the record that I strongly oppose any and all suggestions that involve percentages being included in any revision. 99.192.65.45 (talk) 12:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)


 * I personally prefer p5 or p6 so far but I think we should limit cases to names of people or groups of people (countries can probably be considered a group in this case), since this change is mostly motivated by trying to get the policy more compatible with the thinking behind WP:BLP. I also note that there is a discussion about stadiums above where people seem to prefer the common name more than the official i.e. the opposite what this suggests.--Space simian (talk) 08:23, 6 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "...since this change is mostly motivated by trying to get the policy more compatible with the thinking behind WP:BLP." That might be the motives of others participating in this discussion, but it is not mine. But as I noted way up above, if names that can cause offense are of a concern at all, then names of buildings, schools, stadiums, and foods are all within the legitimate scope of the discussion. As for the above discussion of stadiums, there they are talking about cases where there is a clear common name and the common name is not problematic to use, so it is a different issue. Personally, that qusestion seems like a no-brainer that becomes more complicated because some people think the "official" name should be used even when it is not the common name. But that's a different dispute not relevant to this one. 99.192.65.45 (talk) 12:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * Yes, it's clearer now, after the last update, what we mean. --Space simian (talk) 13:53, 6 September 2013 (UTC)


 * BLP is best server by following the usage in verifiable reliable sources. The consensus for Burma and Ivory Coast (with input from scores of editors) clearly contradict what you are saying about countries. And those are the easy ones, try stepping into the quagmires of articles about ethnicity; nearly any article that involves the Israeli/Palestinian issue; border disputes in Eastern Europe; whether something was or was not a genocide/massacre etc; who owns Liancourt Rocks and so can decide on the official name? We have a whole humorous page on these issues see Lamest edit wars and Lamest edit wars/Names. My serious point being that I think some of those in this discussion are focusing too narrowly on one specific issue and are not considering the wider ramifications (which I think a read of LAME would help fix), and so (to repeat myself) I think "and one of those names has problems" is the most useful wording for a policy. Guidance for what problems are should reside in the naming conventions (At guidelines). -- PBS (talk) 09:56, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's why I think it might be good to limit the scope to people... but I suspect the proposed change will at best make it easier to make a decision in those cases and at worst not make any difference at all. I've been looking at the past RM of Ivory Coast, it's a bit weird because some news agencies seem to insist on using 'Ivory Coast' while governments, the UN , NGOs  and other encyclopedias  all use 'Côte d'Ivoire'. Either way, it does not to appear to be a big deal if we end up with 'Côte d'Ivoire' since that appears to be the more encyclopedic option. (If you check the talk page there is a list of previous RM and clearly there is no consensus.) --Space simian (talk) 11:03, 6 September 2013 (UTC)


 * All this talk of the complexity of country cases makes me feel more strongly that my suggested rewording of P1 ("Names of entities such as buildings and sports teams whose names have been officially changed") allows for countries to be considered, but would not really change any of the current debates that have been going on about Burma or Ivory Coast. The specific mention of countries in P5 and P6 seems to be a very bad idea as well as unnecessary. 99.192.65.45 (talk) 12:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * I've removed Ivory coast, and added Kolkota instead, which was also hotly contested, and arguments were made that Calcutta is still the most commonly known. I agree, we shouldn't have a page that hasn't *actually* yet moved to the new target. I do think we should call out governmental entities and associated renames there, as there are special cases around what a govt is "allowed" to name - in the case of Burma, there is reasoned debate that a military dictatorship is not an authentic arbiter of names and many opposition groups oppose the rename, so Burma may remain where it is for that reason. On the other hand, no-one that I know of is opposed to "Cote d'Ivoire". But there are disputed entities which two governments claim and name differently - in this case we shouldn't take sides - just a long way of saying, government changing the name of something is a special case that deserves its own bullet point and shouldn't be conflated with stadiums.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:49, 6 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I think the proposals all miss an important point... When there are multiple names for a subject, all of them fairly common... then there IS no COMMONNAME ... thus, WP:COMMONAME would be moot. We would reach a consensus as to the best title by looking at all the other criteria and provisions of WP:AT and finding the right balance between them.
 * That said... the COMMONNAME does need a re-write. It has become incredibly jumbled and confusing, due to instruction creep... and the amount of repetition is ridiculous. It needs a clean up, not more instruction creep. Blueboar (talk) 11:31, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you are right that the above proposals only give additional guidance when there is no clear COMMONNAME (or when the COMMONNAME is very likely to change) and possibly de-emphasize the importance of frequency a little when there are possible BLP concerns, so it is no major change of the current policy.--Space simian (talk) 12:06, 6 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Maybe "all of them fairly common" needs to be changed a bit, but my reading of it was to say that we are not talking about a completely obscure name while, at the same time, there might actually be one common name. There is no doubt that "Joe Namath" is THE common name for Joe Namath, but he has been called "Broadway Joe" as a nickname and it uniquely picks him out. So there is a clear common name, yet there also is something that is common enough to be an alternative if one were needed. 99.192.65.45 (talk) 12:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)


 * Yeah, that part might need some more work. I think there is agreement that the name needs to be commonly accepted by reliable sources and that there needs to be a problem with the more frequently used name, e.g. the subject has rejected it in some way. What we want to avoid is changing the name because a fringe group is trying to promote a controversial name, e.g. a sect promoting their leader as the new messiah, so we need to check with reliable sources that there is broad acceptance for the alternate name. --Space simian (talk) 13:36, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * @Blueboar, the language (at least in #5, which I just changed further based on the above discussion) is clear that this is about cases where (1) there is a most common name and (2) the most common name has problems. Please take a look at #5 now - I've removed examples where the page hasn't yet moved (Cat Stevens, Ivory Coast), and added a bit about being careful about government claims for disputed naming rights (such as an island both countries claim, who gets to name it - in these cases, we default back to commonname and WP:CRITERIA). I also re-added the stadiums/sports teams/etc example, but made it clear that this is only to be invoked when there is some sort of wide acceptance of offense - which would thus eliminate companies that rebrand stadiums for vanity reasons - we should still wait till the new stadium name catches on in RS, and not jump right away.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:06, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I think the phrasing "COMMONNAME" is sort of off-mark to begin with. The idea that there is one all-encompassing, definitive common name for every subject is simply a fantasy. Many entities are referred to by multiple different names, some of which are more common and some less common. In such cases we need to exercise editorial judgment and pick one or another based on our reasoning. The idea that all subjects can be describe using a single "COMMONNAME" rather than, say, "COMMONNAMES," unnecessarily constricts our options. Rather than think in terms of one single name, why don't we think about the range of different name s ? CaseyPenk (talk) 17:31, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It would be great if articles could simply have multiple titles. Then, in contentious move debates between two names, you could just say "both". If the user comes in via Bradley, they see "bradley" - if they come in via Chelsea, they see Chelsea. Then we let google/the world decide which version of the page is worth linking to. But thats VP-technical sort of question, and it may cause more trouble than it's worth. I don't like the idea of hybrid titles (like aluminum/aluminium), etc. however.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:29, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, having something in the software that could show it both ways would be delightful. It's similar to how, when you search for a page using a certain name, it takes you to the correct page but it keeps the URL of the search term you used originally (for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:TITLES . Whether it's easy or not, such a feature would certainly be possible to implement, and would be a great help in cases such as these. CaseyPenk (talk) 18:33, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I just think from the DB perspective, the page has to live at a given place, so there would probably always be the "really truly absolutely database-level official name", and people would still debate over who gets to hold that slot - and which of the "redirects" could be turned into "titles", vs which would remain lowly redirects. Ultimately, these arguments are about resource scarcity, and the title is the most scarce resource in all of wikipedia. There aren't multiple articles and multiple POVs, there is one wikipedia article per topic. Other content debates can be wrangled with wording, but usually not titles. Sayre's_law comes to mind: "Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter form of politics, because the stakes are so low." - There's a bit of that going on here as well, we should create a COMMONNAME analogue... My least favorite argument is "We can create a redirect from the other page" - which even I, in my jedi-like wisdom, have used - but it's completely meaningless - because the other side can say the same thing and be equally correct.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:49, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Yesterday I complained that in the proposals we had gone from THREE bullet points in proposal 1 to FIVE bullet points in proposal 5. Now I see proposal 4 has grown to up the ante to SIX bullet points. More is not better. It makes it worse. So I am going to have a crack at modifying proposal 1 without lengthening it. Here's what I came up with. I call it Proposed wording 99:

When there are multiple names for a subject, all of them used frequently in reliable sources, and the most commonly used one has problems, it is permissible (and may be preferable) to choose one of the other names. Examples of names that have problems include, but are not limited to:
 * Names of people or groups of people, when the subject has stated a preference for a different name (for example, Cassius Clay, the former name of Muhammad Ali)
 * Names of entities such as buildings and sports teams whose names have been officially changed because the old name was thought to be offensive (for example, St. John's Redmen, the former name of the St. John's Red Storm)
 * Names that have become used less frequently because they are widely considered offensive (for example, negerboll, another name for chokladboll)

Ok. That looks pretty good to me. Names for ethnic groups (like the Ktunaxa) or collections of people (like the still uncontroversial - but who knows in the future - National Association for the Advancement of Colored People) are covered by bullet point 1. Countries or other places that change names thought to be offensive are covered by bullet point 2, as they are kinds of "entities". (If Lost Coon Lake in Montana, formerly known as "Nigger Lake" decides that maybe the name is still a problem, a change would clearly fall within the scope of this bullet point.) I am not really worried about covering countries specifically anyway, but even if none of the bullet points covers them the "include, but not limited to" preamble clearly allows for them to also be considered. There. Still just three bullet points and three examples. I like it. 99.192.87.226 (talk) 00:48, 7 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)


 * Oppose: This entire discussion is taking the policy in exactly the wrong direction... away from a neutral determination based on source usage... and towards a non-neutral determination based on "what is the desire of the subject".
 * What you are trying to address is the question "What should we do when the official (or self-desired) name of a subject changes"... The answer to that question is... "WAIT... Do NOT immediately change the title of the article. Wikipedia does not base it's article titles on the subject's official name or self-desire. Instead it bases its article titles on usage in reliable sources"
 * What we should be addressing is the question: "What should we do once source usage starts to change?" The answer to that question is... "follow the sources (giving more weight to those written after the subject announced the change)...  Look at both the quantity of sources that are changing their usage, and the quality of those sorces. If a significant majority have changed, then we should change our title to reflect that shift in source usage.  If a significant majority have not changed, then we should continue to reflect the sources by using the "old" name.  If a significant majority can not be determined, then we can say that there is no COMMONNAME... and we should reach a consensus based on other criteria and provisions of this policy. Blueboar (talk) 13:02, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Blueboar, I understand where you're coming from, and I understand where COMMONNAME stands on this issue. The challenge is, there are cases where COMMONNAME hasn't yet caught up with subject's preference - because the weight of previous sources sometimes outweighs the new ones, or it takes a while for the new name to propagate - and we are making a presumption here that not titling the article per the subjects preference has the potential for harm. The changes above are intended to modulate commonname to allow the selection of a (slightly) less common name - suggesting that it IS already used in reliable sources - even if NOT YET a majority of sources. The intent is to consider the potential harm which could be done to a subject and balance that against the needs of the readers. the trans* name change is obviously the extreme case, but we have many others. I'd be interested in getting your support for this, so wondering how we can adjust the proposal to address your concerns.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:34, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Blueboar, to echo what Obi said, the Manning debate has been a cautionary tale that COMMONNAME as it currently stands does not deal gracefully with cases of transgender people among others. Many editors expressed a concern that using the subject's former name violates WP:BLP or is otherwise harmful. We both would appreciate your support and are wondering what's suitable to you. CaseyPenk (talk) 20:37, 7 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Two quibbles. First, as I mentioned above, BLP and harm to living people might be the concern of some people, but it is not a concern that I have, and I do support a wording change. Second, what I think Blueboar is missing is that these proposals are not about creating a new policy, but to simply clarify existing policy. The policy as it reads right now is this: "When there are multiple names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others." The main purpose of these proposals is to provide some guidance about what can and should count as "has problems". The idea of not taking the most common name when it "has problems" already is policy. We are just making that existing policy more clear. 99.192.83.251 (talk) 20:41, 7 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)

I just figured out how to edit the proposals, so I have modified proposed wording 1 with the suggestion I made a few comments up. 99.192.73.248 (talk) 21:25, 7 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * 99... I accept that your intent is to merely clarify existing policy, and not to change it, I even accept that you believe your proposal achieves your intent.  However, I feel that the proposal does in fact change existing policy... and I think it does so significantly.  It moves us from being completely neutral (following the source usage) to being non-neutral (following the subject's wishes).  For me it is that simple. Furthermore, I am unconvinced that entitling an article using the subjects "old"  name does any serious harm to the subject.  Especially since we would note the name change in the text of the article, no matter what title we give it. (Indeed, we would probably note it in the very first sentence... and in big bold print).  No, using someones "old name" does not harm the person. Blueboar (talk) 03:16, 8 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Blueboar, let's start with what you and I agree on: I also believe that using an unpreferred name as the title of an article does no harm to the subject that we should be worried about. But here is where we disagree: You believe that the present policy is neutral by relying solely on what the sources say. I don't see how you can read the present wording and come to that conclusion. So I have to ask you this: Can you give me an example of what would count as a correct application of the current policy, the one that reads "When there are multiple names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others"? If anything, your support for being "neutral" and "following the source usage" seems directly at odds with this part of the policy. So what's an example of applying the present policy? 99.192.50.55 (talk) 12:42, 8 September 2013 (UTC) (99.192....)
 * OK, first... Our concept of COMMONNAME refers to situations where there is one name that stands out as being more recognizable than others. So... "When there are multiple names for a subject, all of them fairly common"... then there is no COMMONNAME.  There is no need for the WP:COMMONNAME section to talk about whether one of the choices "has problems", because it does not apply in situations where there are multiple common names.  When there is a COMMONNAME (one name that stands out because it is used significantly more often in reliable sources) then that name is what we should use because it best conforms with our title criteria... it will be the most recognizable name... and it will almost always be the most natural name.
 * Now let me address the issue of Neutrality. When it comes to titles, for us to be truly Neutral, we have to step back and "not care" what the outcome of any article title deliberation will be. We look at the evidence as presented in reliable sources, and give the various options DUE WEIGHT.  Now... if the subject of our article desires to be called X, we should (and do) give his/her wishes a reasonable degree of weight... but... when a significant majority of reliable sources call our subject Y, then that predominance carries more weight.  It would be non-neutral for us to favor the wishes of the subject over what is used by a significant majority of reliable sources.
 * Of course, in situations where there is not a significant majority (ie there is no COMMONNAME), then we don't have that predominance outweighing the due weight we reasonably give to the subject's desires. When there is no COMMONNAME to outweigh alternative titles, we can look to other policy/guideline provisions to choose the title (indeed we have to do so).  Then, I would say we should follow the subject's desire (if possible).
 * So... when a person or entity announces that they have changed their name, we recognize and accept that there will be a transition period... It's a three step process.
 * Step one... as soon as the change is announced, we should make a note of that announcement in the text of the article. However, at this point the "old" name is still more recognizable... so we don't change the title - YET.
 * Step two (once one or two sources start to use the "new" name), Highlight the new name as an "alternative name" in the lede sentence (in bold letters in the lead so people pay attention to it). At this point we would also create a redirect page for the "new" name.
 * Step three - as more sources use the new name, the old name ceases to be the COMMONNAME. We then can swap things around... the "old" name becomes the "alternative" and the "new" name is used for the title. The redirects would also swap.
 * How quickly this occurs depends on the sources... it might be just a matter of a few days... it might be years. But since we are neutral as to the title, we shouldn't care how quickly it happens... at each step we let the sources drive our actions. Blueboar (talk) 15:15, 8 September 2013 (UTC)


 * There are a couple of things to unpack here. First, you say "So... 'When there are multiple names for a subject, all of them fairly common '... then there is no COMMONNAME." That is incorrect. The policy clearly says, "...some topics have multiple names ... Wikipedia prefers the name that is most commonly used ... This is often referred to using the Wikipedia short cut term: 'COMMONNAME'." So if one name is used 52% of the time and another name is used 48% of the time, the one used 52% of the time is the "COMMONNAME". But at the same time it is also true that the one used 48% of the time is "fairly common", satisfying the sentence "When there are multiple names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems...." There can be a COMMONNAME and at the same time other names that are "fairly common".


 * Second, you spend a lot of time here talking about names of people, which is understandable given the context in which this discussion arose, but the proposal is about a lot more than just that. So with a team name or the name of a food, also examples, there could be a case where one name is used 52% of the time and another name used 48% of the time, yet the one used 52% of the time has problems. In a case like that, the policy says it is ok to use the 48% name, even though the other one is the COMMONNAME. 99.192.55.192 (talk) 17:09, 8 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)


 * I agree with Blueboar. I also think that way this conversation has been structured by claiming "Current proposals on the table" when in fact the proposal not to implement any of them is missing, makes the construction and structuring of this section biased. It is like the metaphor used by EU proponents that the process is a journey to ever closer union, if one accepts the constraints of that metaphor then one is automatically forced to carry out a conversation within that metaphor and open oneself up to the accusation that "your are missing the train". Likewise this conversation is structured to imply that the current wording is inadequate and therefore needs changing, and that "ain't necessarily so". -- PBS (talk) 14:02, 8 September 2013 (UTC)


 * PBS, with all due respect, you are evading my question. The current policy says it is ok not to use the most common name when it "has problems". That is the existing policy, not any of the recommendations. So I am asking Blueboar (and now you) to give me an example of a situation where current policy would say that we should go with the less common name, because the policy is clearly saying we can do that. What do you think counts as an example of this situation? 99.192.50.55 (talk) 14:36, 8 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.912....)
 * I think the hang up is the interpretation of what is meant by "has problems". The intent was to cover things like the need for disambiguation (if the COMMONNAME is ambiguous, we can consider alternative names as a way to disambiguate).  "Has problems" was never intended to include debates over name changes.  We consider such debates normal routine and not "Problems". Blueboar (talk) 15:32, 8 September 2013 (UTC)


 * You are correct that a lot rides on what "has problems" means, which is what these proposals were meant to address. The whole point of them was to explain in some detail what that phrase could mean. Your claim that it was not intended to cover cases like the proposals describe got me wondering whether there was any evidence in the archives about when the wording was added and why. I found that the wording was added on August 22, 2011 in this edit as a result of this talk page discussion (which should look familiar to you). Looking at that material it seems likely that the phrase "has problems" was meant to refer back to the mention of "ambiguous or inaccurate names" and non-neutral names mentioned earlier in the paragraph. (Worries about titles being "vulgar" or "pedantic" were added to that paragraph subsequently and was in a later paragraph at the time "has problems" was added.) It would be more clear that the "has problems" was referring back to these if the wording were "has any of these problems" instead. But without it, it can remain an open question what counts as "having problems". 99.192.55.192 (talk) 17:27, 8 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * I really see very limited difference between all 5 proposals. If one is looking at these proposals for guidance, the bottom line is they all say "it is permissible (and may be preferable)." That does nothing. Ivory Coast will still be Ivory Coast under that ambiguous wording, and there will still be plenty of turmoil because words like "permissible" and "may" aren't words like "don't" or "must." My thoughts are this seems like a lot of work for something that really doesn't do much. Fyunck(click) (talk) 17:46, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
 * To my mind, the virtue of greater clarity is that in future cases where the name for an article might be disputed it will help settle the question of whether one of the fairly common names "has problems" (in which case the decision about what to name the article should not be seen as just a question of determining what the most common name is) or whether none "have problems" (in which case it would seem that the COMMONNAME should be used). In a dispute it is all too easy for supporters of the COMMONAME to deny that this is one of the cases covered by the "has problems" wording. By doing this proponents of the COMMONNAME might attempt to shut down a legitimate discussion of whether or not that name should be used. If proponents of a "fairly common", but not most common name can point to specified examples of where a name might "have problems", then they can prevent a legitimate discussion from being shut down. You are right that the result of such a discussion might be to go with the COMMONAME despite the "problems", but at least that would happen by consensus, not by misapplying policy. 99.192.55.192 (talk) 18:05, 8 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * I guess I haven't seen a complete shutdown by citing COMMONNAME. That certainly didn't happen with Ivory Coast or Burma. Those were lengthy consensus discussions, even with cabals, so they wouldn't apply at all here. Of all the contentions issues we have at wikipedia, if any of these new proposals come to fruition, I don't think it will make a difference in 99% of them. Plus, almost all the time the most common name has any sort of problem, the alternatives have problems also. So again, when the dust settles, this seems much ado about nothing. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:22, 8 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Fyunck(click), you doth protest too much, methinks. If you really believe that nothing is riding on this discussion, why are you wasting your time participating in it? 99.192.55.192 (talk) 18:32, 8 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)


 * Me thinks you might want to register here if you want us to take your input really seriously. Right now I'm answering a posting from an editor who has been editing for one day only. I don't care if it stays the same, or any of these 6 choices go through. I see no difference in where articles will wind up because of any of these proposals. Tightening up wording is always good, but the ifs and maybes are staying the same. This thread caught my eye and I gave my input fwiw. And who know...choices 7–12 might appear in the future that I might really like or really hate. I'm not sure if changes to COMMONNAME are needed, but if these are our only choices then I would oppose change just for change's sake. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:13, 8 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment: I like proposals 1 and 3. Proposal 2 makes so minor a change that I don't think it will affect debates or be worth the bother. I feel the same way about Proposal 4, which is also vague enough that I can see it creating more uncertainty than it removes (especially given how many people feel that AT is the only page that governs article titles). -sche (talk) 19:27, 8 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Copy edit I think we need to be careful not to create more problems while trying to resolve one. It's clear that people here want to be able to use a subject's preferred name, if that is common. I don't see a big deal with that and I think that's largely our practice right now. I think the hang up really is on the phrase "use the most common name", whereas in reality our policy and practice is to "use common names, usually the most common name, but not always". The section already comes with sufficient get-out-clauses to cover the desires above. For example:"'Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources. Neutrality is also considered; our policy on neutral titles, and what neutrality in titles is, follows in the next section. When there are several names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others.'"So, I think rather than making changes to probably the most widely-cited policy (with all the unexpected outcomes and drama that will probably follow), I think we'd be better of copy editing the current policy to make it more readable and succinct. Anyone up for a stab at that first? --RA ( &#x270D; ) 09:50, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

alternative proposal
The sentence is misplaced. If there are multiple names, "all fairly common" then COMMONNAME does not (indeed can not) apply... there is no COMMONNAME. It may be that it could work in some other section... but it does not really belong in COMMONNAME. Blueboar (talk) 15:23, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Remove the "has problems" sentence from the WP:COMMONNAME section entirely.


 * See my just added comments above. It would seem that if you want an alternative that merely clarifies a different reading of existing policy, you would want "has problems" to be replaced with "has any of these problems", thus referring back to the problems that are mentioned in the paragraph already. 99.192.55.192 (talk) 17:30, 8 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)


 * Blueboar, would you agree that if a notable person publicly announces a name change, and this name change and the person's new name are widely reported and discussed in reliable sources, that the new name is "fairly common", irrespective of whether some of those same sources choose to call this person by that name in other reports about them? In other words, can we, in the wake of a widely publicized and well reported name change, immediately thereafter consider the new name to be "common" for purposes of WP:COMMON? bd2412  T 14:55, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes and no... Given that your scenario specifies wide reporting on the new name, we (probably) can justify saying that the "old" name is no longer the COMMONNAME... However, it may not be enough to establish a new COMMONNAME. I would still urge caution. For example, I could envision a situation where the media has a brief flurry of reports on the subject's announcement... but if subsequent media reporting goes back to using the old name then  the flurry of reporting on the announcement would not be enough to say that the old name is no longer the COMMONNAME.
 * Let me repeat that in a different way... the post-announcement media reports may be enough to question whether the old name is the COMMONNAME... but it may not be enough to say that the new name has become the new COMMONNAME. Each case will be different.  And there is often a period of time where there is no COMMONNAME (in which case, WP:COMMONNAME would not apply, and we would look to other criteria to determine the best article title.)
 * So... even in your scenario, my advice would still be to WAIT... give the sources time to settle down and establish a consistent (post-announcement) usage. Then consider changing the title based on that (post-announcement) consistent usage. Blueboar (talk) 15:44, 9 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Maybe you missed me recent reply to you a little higher up, but it is clear that you have the wrong idea about what manes a name the COMMONNAME. In short, unless two or more name have an identical frequency of usage, there always is a COMMONNAME. The policy clearly says, "...some topics have multiple names ... Wikipedia prefers the name that is most commonly used ... This is often referred to using the Wikipedia short cut term: 'COMMONNAME'." So if one name is used 52% of the time and another name is used 48% of the time, the one used 52% of the time is the "COMMONNAME". But at the same time it is also true that the one used 48% of the time is "fairly common". 99.192.71.2 (talk) 21:55, 9 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * Nope, I don't have the "wrong idea" about COMMONNAME... I was was working on this policy page when it was first introduced, and have been involved in almost every discussion about it since then. I know well what it means.  It has never been, nor never intended to be a simple frequency count. Blueboar (talk) 23:41, 9 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Your story about being there when the policy was written is interesting, but I quoted the policy as it is written and it says that you are wrong. The name used most commonly is the COMMONNAME. 99.192.71.2 (talk) 23:46, 9 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * OK... then let's look at the policy as currently written. It says:
 * When there is no single obvious term that is obviously the most frequently used for the topic, as used by a significant majority of reliable English language sources, editors should reach a consensus as to which title is best by considering the criteria listed above. Bolding mine for emphasis.
 * That sentence has been in the policy since early 2010... and clarifies what we mean by COMMONNAME. The phrase significant majority is important. It addresses two issue: first that the COMMONNAME is not just a 51% plurality... and second that we do take the quality of sources into account (a majority of low quality sources may not be significant enough to off set a minority of high quality sources). Blueboar (talk) 00:20, 10 September 2013 (UTC)


 * You are seeing things that are not there. It says what to do when it is not obviously obvious that the COMMONNAME is used by a significant majority of sources. It does not purport to define what the term "COMMONNAME" means. The part I quoted comes at the start of the section and explicitly presents itself as a definition. 99.192.71.2 (talk) 00:43, 10 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)


 * Addendum: I just looked at the discussion from Feb 2010 on this page and it is VERY clear from that that the participants took "most frequently used" to mean the same thing as "common name". In fact, much of the discussion was about using the phrase "no obvious common name" which ended up being written as "no single obvious term that is obviously the most frequently used". So "most frequently used" = "common name". You also fail to recognize that saying that there is no obvious common name is different from saying that there is no common name at all. There will still be one. It is just not obvious which it is. 99.192.71.2 (talk) 01:01, 10 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * Again... the key word in "as used by a significant majority" is: "significant". You keep skipping over that word. Blueboar (talk) 02:36, 10 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Seriously? Ok, I'll spell it out for you again: "common name" = "most frequently used"; "obvious common name" = "used by a significant majority". Is that clear enough for you? 99.192.78.50 (talk) 03:05, 10 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * OK... I can accept that this is your interpretation of that sententence... but as the author of the sentence, I can assure you that this was not the intent. The intent was "common name" = "used by significant majority".  (and please don't say that you know my intent better than I do). Blueboar (talk) 12:08, 10 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I would never tell someone I know better than they do what they meant. It is obviously obvious that people are the best source for what they meant. But having read the discussion that took place and seeing how the phrase "no obvious common name" was used over and over again by them before the final wording was reached, it was obviously obvious to me that they obviously meant "common name" = "most frequently used" and "obvious common name" = ""used by a significant majority". 99.192.66.121 (talk) 13:51, 10 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)

Another proposal, based on consistency with MOS:IDENTITY
This is now proposal 7.

Moved from Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (people) (since someone apparently thought it was "fracturing the discussion" for me to put it there):

As demonstrated by articles such as Bradley Manning (referring to Chelsea Manning) and Cat Stevens (referring to Yusuf Islam), there is a conflict between the guidelines in MOS:IDENTITY, and the policy for titles of biography articles given here. Put simply, the name that a person uses for themself may not be the name by which they have been most commonly known. Indeed this will never be the case immediately after a name change (and, as in the Yusuf Islam case, possibly for decades afterward).

MOS:IDENTITY says:


 * When there is no dispute, the term most commonly used for a person will be the one that person uses for himself or herself, and the most common terms for a group will be those that the group most commonly uses for itself. Wikipedia should use them too. (For example, see the article Jew, which demonstrates that most Jews prefer that term to "Jewish person".)


 * Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life. Direct quotations may need to be handled as exceptions (in some cases adjusting the portion used may reduce apparent contradictions, and "[sic]" may be used where necessary).

Note that although the second paragraph refers to pronouns, it is very common for pronouns and name to be changed at the same time. In such cases, it would make no sense to refer to the person by their new pronouns and their old name (and to my knowledge that hasn't happened other than as a temporary state while articles are being edited). So MOS:IDENTITY is typically interpreted as a de facto requirement for new names to be used in that case, as well as new pronouns.

Trans* people (I use "trans*" to include those who identify outside the gender binary) have relied on this as a partial defence against transphobia and misgendering in Wikipedia articles. (I use "transphobia" deliberately because that is what is being defended against, and typically that is how a trans* person will perceive deliberate use of old names and pronouns, even if some such uses are not consciously intended to be transphobic. I also note that this provides no defence against misgendering on talk pages, which is a separate and also important issue.) Critically, this guideline does not depend on "reliable sources" as gatekeepers of a person's identity, nor should it.

Personally, as a trans woman, It was an unpleasant and distressing shock to find (as a result of the move of Chelsea Manning page back to Bradley Manning) that even this limited protection apparently does not apply to article titles.

I propose that the policy on naming articles should be consistent with the intent of MOS:IDENTITY, that is, it should explicitly require that the title of a biography article is the name that the subject uses (or used at the time of their death) for themself, and in particular does not use a name that has been repudiated by the subject. (There will be many cases where the subject has no objection to, e.g. a stage name being used, even if that is not their personal name. But if they indicate publically that a particular name shouldn't be used, then it shouldn't be used on Wikipedia.)

Note that it is a red herring to argue that this will make it difficult to find articles. In most cases, the article will have a redirect from the old name, and so it will not be any more difficult to find. (A redirect is only appropriate in the case where the person has been commonly known by their old name, i.e. previous names of "stealth" trans people should not be given, and indeed it may be illegal to do so.)

Although my personal interest is obviously with the case of trans* people, I believe the principles involved are essentially the same for other name changes (which are often deeply associated with personal identity), and so there is no problem or inconsistency with applying this policy change generally.

--Daira Hopwood ⚥ (talk) 01:38, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Pages go at the best-known title, not necessarily the official title, and not necessarily the title the subject prefers. This is true even if some people consider that title offensive. See WP:POVNAME and WP:COMMONNAME. You may also be interested in the naming rules for contested physical territories, which have traditionally been the home of our most vociferous and offended naming wars. --erachima talk 02:52, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * erachima - The fact that the policy you've stated results in article titles that are offensive to the subject, is a serious problem that my proposal is attempting to fix, and that would be unacceptable and inconsistent with WP:DIGNITY not to fix. (By the way you've drastically oversimplified the actual policy, although it seems to be a common misconception that the current policy is as you've said.) --Daira Hopwood ⚥ (talk) 16:06, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * daria, i perhaps wasnt clear enough - i didnt mean for you to start a new proposal here - rather that you join the rather extensive discussion already here which covers your proposal more or less.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 03:09, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The existing discussion does not cover my proposal. My proposal ensures that titles for biographical articles are consistent with the name used in the content per MOS:IDENTITY, which as far as I can see, is not a guaranteed property of any of the other proposals, all of which have an element of reliance on so-called "reliable" sources that is not present in MOS:IDENTITY. My name is Daira by the way. --Daira Hopwood ⚥ (talk) 16:06, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If they want to make more proposals, they're free to do so, but any new proposal is unlikely to get more than cursory consideration at this point in time. --erachima talk 09:49, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * anyone is free to do whatever they like, but reading and understanding the context and evolving consensus of previous discussions is useful. This proposal above by Daira is basically saying we should take preferences into account, and we have been iterating on that exact idea above.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 11:44, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * To be clear my proposal is not simply that preferences should be "taken into account". It is that preferences should be paramount. --Daira Hopwood ⚥ (talk) 16:17, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * in the interest of saving you time, allow me to suggest that the chance of changing commonname to allow titling an article based solely on preferences while ignoring any question of usage in reliable sources has basically a snowball's chance in hell of passing consensus. So, go for it, but you won't have my support.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:39, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Pronouns and names are fundamentally different issues. You claim that "MOS:IDENTITY is typically interpreted as a de facto requirement for new names to be used in that case, as well as new pronouns." I disagree, but if it were being interpreted that way it would be being interpreted wrongly. The question of what name should be used and what pronoun should be used are independent questions. The question of what title an article should have is yet another independent question. There is no conflict between MOS:IDENTITY and the policy for titles of articles. 99.192.64.32 (talk) 04:00, 15 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * If you think that this is not the de facto policy, please point to any biographical article of a trans person that uses post-transition pronouns and pre-transition name (throughout, not just mentioned or in quotation). That would be ridiculous, and there is a strong concensus recognizing that it would be ridiculous. --Daira Hopwood ⚥ (talk) 16:10, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * This is a bizarre challenge. To my knowledge, most trangender people keep the same surname post-transition only changing their first name. Since articles typically refer to a person only using the surname throughout ("Smith moved to Chicago in 1973") the article is not choosing the post-transition name over the pre-transition name because for the purposes of most sentences they are the same name. So the article for Dee Palmer does use the pre-transition name throughout by calling her "Palmer" - her pre-transition surname. But that probably won't satisfy you. If you can point me to an article of a trangender person whose post-transition surname is different from their pre-transition surname, I bet the pre-transition surname is used for early life descriptions, just as it does for non-transgender people who change their names. But if no such cases exist, then there is no basis for your claim that a post-transition name is preferred in the body of an article. 99.192.86.20 (talk) 19:14, 15 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * And now I can answer my own question! The article for Alexis Reich uses the name "Karr" for all of the parts of her life when her name was Mark David Karr, but also uses the female pronouns. QED. 99.192.86.20 (talk) 19:39, 15 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
 * The Alexis Reich article is inconsistent with MOS:IDENTITY. I'll fix the use of Karr later when I have more time; I've just fixed two inappropriate uses of "John" in that article (but no doubt that'll get reverted by people who don't understand MOS:IDENTITY :-. --Daira Hopwood ⚥ (talk) 20:49, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Given that MOS:IDENTITY is currently under dispute, I would advise against changing any article that has been stable previously. That's the sort of behavior that quickly results in DRAMA escalations, results in your side being labeled as POV-pushers trying to ram through changes without consensus, and generally backfires and harms the ability to have a rational debate. Remember, the whole reason this dispute has gotten so large in the first place was due to a similarly premature change. --erachima talk 21:06, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If you think there's controversy now, watch the shit really hit the fan if the limited protection against misgendering that MOS:IDENTITY currently gives trans people were weakened. I hope that doesn't happen, because I fear for the overall future of Wikipedia if it did. --Daira Hopwood ⚥ (talk) 21:19, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

It isn't an exact parallel to the issue here... but look at how we present pronouns in our article on Lassie... This is a case where we actually do use two different pronouns... when discussing the fictional character of "Lassie" we use the pronoun "she", because the character was presented as being female. However, when discussing the actual dogs that portrayed Lassie, we use "he", because all of these dogs were in fact, biologically male. --Blueboar
 * That is no different from the case of a human actor playing a character of a different gender. In such cases, it's perfectly obvious that you should use the name and pronouns of the character when discussing the character, and the name and pronouns of the actor when discussing the actor. If either the character or the actor had changed their name and/or pronouns, you would use the changed name and/or pronouns for them (with a parenthetical explanation if necessary). Biology has nothing to do with it. --Daira Hopwood ⚥ (talk) 21:06, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

I understand that there is all sorts of emotional baggage in play here... but I think we can deal with the "pronoun" issue for people similarly... when discussing the persons gender identity, it would be appropriate to use "he" or "she" according to that identity... but in other contexts it is more appropriate to refer to the person by the appropriate biological pronoun. --Blueboar
 * No, it is never appropriate to use a so-called "biological" pronoun for a transitioned person. If you don't know what the established policy is, why are you commenting here? And why are you commenting on something (pronouns) that isn't even at issue? (Those are rhetorical questions, by the way.) --Daira Hopwood ⚥ (talk) 21:06, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Names are a different issue... names are not necessarily gender specific. So a change in gender identity does not automatically mandate a change in name... for one thing, the person may not choose to change their name when they change gender identity. Even when they do, it is well established on Wikipedia that names (especially in titles) should reflect source usage, and not the personal wishes of the subject. If the subject changes his/her name (the reason does not matter), we can and should note that change in the text of the article... but we WAIT until sources start routinely using the new name before we change our article title. Blueboar (talk) 17:13, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I've never said that names always change on transition. But that's irrelevant, since we are talking about policy in the case where a name has changed. In such cases, the motivation for the change almost always includes the new name being perceived to be more consistent with the adopted gender identity (although there may be other motivations). I also do not see why the policy for titles should be inconsistent with the policy for content. Isn't that simply illogical? --Daira Hopwood ⚥ (talk) 21:06, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * There is a separate question inherent in that comment, which is, what does it mean for sources to be "using" the new name? For example, if the Washington Times reports the fact that the subject has changed their name (and states this new name in their report), but also editorializes that, for political reasons, they won't be addressing the subject by that new name, aren't they still using the name when they identify it for the purposes of dismissing it? bd2412  T 18:29, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If a news organisation deliberately misgenders a subject of its articles, that should have no influence on Wikipedia policy, one way or the other. Under my proposal, it wouldn't. --Daira Hopwood ⚥ (talk) 21:06, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, the point where you start arguing that any source that disagrees with your view doesn't count is the point where you need to calmly step away from the debate for a while. --erachima talk 21:19, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Don't mischaracterize what I said. --Daira Hopwood ⚥ (talk) 23:01, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You just said "If a news organisation [disagrees with me on this subject], that should have no influence on Wikipedia policy". How is that mischaracterization? --erachima talk 23:04, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Being trans-gender yourself, wouldn't there be a WP:COI here? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:29, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No. No caveats, that is not a COI. Clear? --Daira Hopwood ⚥ (talk) 22:59, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Being transgender does not in any way intrinsically present a COI problem. It's not a good omen when an editor considers their work a moral crusade, but unless they actually start editing disruptively it's still not a matter for community concern. --erachima talk 21:50, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No "Being transgender does not in any way intrinsically present a COI problem" but being transgender proposing things for a transgendered issue here on Wikipedia can run into problems. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:25, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Knowledgekid87 - If you persist with this line of argument, I will report you. --Daira Hopwood ⚥ (talk) 23:03, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * oppose and propose removing proposal 7 from the lineup - it is far too broad and is not framed as actual language change, instead its a series of edits to three or four policies and guidelines. It will distract us from the emerging consensus above. I encourage the nom to shut this down and propose something more measured in its stead - eg actual language and not broad sweeping changes.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 00:20, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose and endorse removing proposal 7 - Too broad of a proposal, Wikipedia follows reliable sources and does not make the news. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:24, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose and endorse removing proposal 7 per Obi-Wan and KK87. GregJackP   Boomer!   03:23, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Articles about legal cases: titles should follow usage in reliable sources, or go with official case name?
In articles about legal cases, should titles follow usage in reliable sources, or go with the official case name?

Discussion is here:
 * Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Legal

--B2C 18:25, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Definitely not "official case name". There are many well-known cases for which the "official" name is a string of parties no one would recognize. bd2412  T 18:39, 12 September 2013 (UTC)


 * This talk section's title and the question posed is misleading. Going with "official case name" is not part of the linked discussion, and I don't know that anyone has advocated it.  A better summary of the question would be:  When abbreviating legal case names, should we use the abbreviation convention of the jurisdiction that handled the case?  (that is, should we use commonly recognized abbreviations, or make up our own, which tends to mean randomly dropping whole words, resulting in Wikipedia titling cases unlike any reliable source).  Anyone interested should read the proposal and discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Legal.  --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:31, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Alexis_Reich#Requested_move_16_September_2013
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Alexis_Reich. Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 04:23, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Discussion to change name
A discussion about renaming an article is taking place at Talk:Electoral_reform_in_the_United_States. Student7 (talk) 23:04, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think that there is a policy issue there. Just the normal disagreement between editors.  I would suggest that the best way to get 3rd party opinions would be to file an RFC or an WP:RM discussion. Blueboar (talk) 01:30, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

WT:NC-TV
Proposal is using "(series X episode)" and "(episode)". Please improve consensus by joining discussion. Thanks. George Ho (talk) 01:21, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Hey, are we going to bring back some of the discussion regarding making COMMONNAME a little clearer
On how to treat the names of people who had changed their names (etc) in future?

I still think that's an important discussion to have, so as to avoid future explosive conflict, and I liked some of the proposals we had on the table (and when I'm feeling less lazy, I might even dig out the table of proposals we had last time around. (Or somebody else could do it, and save me the trouble.)Cam94509 (talk) 16:03, 9 October 2013 (UTC)


 * You're going to have to be more precise thn that. What areas do you want clarified? Go ahead, shake off that laziness, and link to a few discussions on what you are talking about, but more importantly, propose something. Dovid (talk) 05:20, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

At Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles/Archive_42 I suggested a copy edit to the above the lsit part, producing:

For an article title, use a commonly recognizable name. The preferred name is usually the most prevalent name used in reliable English-language sources. This preferred name may or may not be an official, scientific, birth, original, or trademarked name. In determining the prevalence of a name, consider the usage in the sources referenced in the article, and you may also consider other reliable sources. Also consider the choice made by other encyclopedias. The most prevalent name used may be discounted in favor of another of significant but lesser prevalence, due to problems such as: ambiguity, inaccuracy, non-neutrality, vulgarity or pedantry.

I think it nearly had consensus, and there was certainly consensus that a copy-edit was desirable. Peter coxhead (talk) 09:43, 5 July 2013 (UTC) helpfully contributed further edits and comments, but it seemed to stall. The text is so bad that copy-editing is quite a challenge. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:27, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The current wording is as it is because it includes certain rules anomalies which have been added over time while other bits and pieces have been removed. For example the wording you have proposed has removed "If the name of a person, group, object, or other article topic changes, then more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change". This removal would have affected the rational in this debate:Talk:Chelsea Manning/October 2013 move request. The problem with making changes to policy is that it often has unforeseen consequences, so usually it is better to make incremental alterations rather than rewrites. -- PBS (talk) 09:30, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I know. I didn't dare do more. I suspect that few are willing to do minor copy edits because they would leave a version they are not happy to have their name on. ---SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:41, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Go forth boldy. At worst, a waste of time, because if it results in unintended consequences, you will be sure to find a bunch of editors quickly working to close the gap. Dovid (talk) 04:20, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
 * That is a bad idea as change here affect dozens of ongoing talk page conversations. Also see the box at the top of this page that starts "Discretionary sanctions..." making such a bold edit before consensus is reached may be to be seen as a breach of the Arbcom decision. -- PBS (talk) 11:21, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Holy Sepulcher Catholic Cemetery in Orange, California, Orange County, CA
Please begin a page on Holy Sepulcher Catholic Cemetery in Orange, California. THANK YOU! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.206.216.81 (talk) 19:48, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
 * This request belongs on WP:Requested articles. Thank you. Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  13:04, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Primary topic and parenthetical disambiguation
I think there is a hole in the guideline. Consider Tenure that is a redirect to Tenure (academic). Is it a correct redirect? I mean if academic tenure is the primary topic for the term "tenure" according to Disambiguation, "tenure" itself has to be the title of this article. If it's not, "tenure" has to be a disambiguation page. Therefore, as a rule, no term "X" should be a redirect to "X (disambiguating term)". This rule should be mentioned in this guideline. --Ali Pirhayati (talk) 16:14, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * In this specific case, the error seems to be in the article title, which should be "Academic tenure" not "Tenure (academic)", c.f. Land tenure. The primary meaning of "tenure" is "the holding of land or office" according to most dictionary definitions I've seen. "Tenure" fails WP:PRECISION as an article title.
 * I would be very wary of trying to create a firm rule; each case has to be considered and consensus reached on its own terms. Peter coxhead (talk) 16:33, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It isn't a loophole, more due to circumstances specific to that article. Tenure (academic) was moved with at best minimal discussion on the talk page, and certainly nothing related to considerations of primary topic. In my opinion, while either academic tenure or tenure (academic) would be acceptable titles if it is determined that that topic is not the primary topic for the term, if that topic is the primary topic, the article should be titled tenure rather than having that term be a redirect. It may well be that a disambiguation page is warranted. In addition to land tenure and the film, which are currently mentioned in the hatnote, there is also the related concept of tenure of political offices, as addressed by two Tenure of Office Acts. And there is also housing tenure. older ≠ wiser 17:35, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree that the subject article should be named back to Academic tenure and that a disambiguation page is needed for "Tenure". In addition to the items mentioned already, a scan of "tenure" article titles turns up items like Tenure review (related to land tenure) and "Tenure, ecclesiatical", which redirects to Ecclesiastical fief. --Orlady (talk) 18:03, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The specifics of this case should be discussed at that article's talkpage (including an RM if needed). On the general point, I agree with Bkonrad that if a subject is a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, then the base name should be used as the article title and not as a redirect (with exceptions for things like WP:USPLACE). If "academic tenure" is the PRIMARYTOPIC for "tenure", then, yes, the article title should be "Tenure". Dohn joe (talk) 18:22, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I wasn't meaning to discuss about one special case. This is my question: May there be a case in which a term "X" should be a redirect to "X (disambiguating term)"? --Ali Pirhayati (talk) 20:32, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, that general question was the one I tried to address in my comment. Generally, "X" should not be a redirect to "X (dab)", unless there's a particularly good reason (as with WP:USPLACE, where disambiguation by state is usually mandatory). Dohn joe (talk) 20:46, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Generally, yes, but not a "rule". Peter coxhead (talk) 21:39, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * With respect to parenthetic disambiguation, it's definitely a rule and should be stated. I, for one, cannot think of a single exception.  And even if there are one or two such exceptions, justified by IAR, that's not evidence against the existence of the (currently unstated) rule.   USPLACE is not an exception, as it uses comma disambiguation, which some argue is not disambiguation at all, but, rather, an alternative (and preferable to some) name. What we need now is a specific proposal - how to word the rule and where to put it.  --B2C 22:40, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Actually, the rule is already stated at WT:AT

Maybe that first bullet should say the following?
 * If the article is about the primary topic to which the ambiguous name refers, then that name should be its title without modification, provided it follows all other applicable policies, or, if policy indicates the article should have another title, then that name should redirect to that article. But Title should never redirect to Title (disambiguation).

--B2C 22:47, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm strongly against the use of "never" here; it's too prescriptive and doesn't allow for the proper development of consensus among editors in specific cases. Peter coxhead (talk) 11:51, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree that this may be something not to get too prescriptive about. Perhaps it's appropriate for topic-specific conventions such as Naming conventions (music) to be more prescriptive. That topic-specific convention already prefers parenthetical disambiguation while this umbrella policy prefers natural disambiguation. But while music is ground zero for this issue, it isn't limited to just music. Examples include: There is an open requested move about the latter at talk:Lucky Star (song). More policy clarity here, or in topic-specific conventions, will help avoid too many contentious discussions on specific article or redirect talk pages. This is related to WP:PDAB, which I'm not sure went about it the right way. The current Article titles policy says: "The title (should be) sufficiently precise to unambiguously identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects." Now, how does any primary topic (which implies that there are one or more secondary topics for the title) unambiguously identify the article's subject? Even God does not unambiguously distinguish itself from God (Australian band), for example. It would need to be retitled God (Supreme Being) to be truly unambiguous. Wbm1058 (talk) 17:34, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Inverter → Power inverter
 * Thriller (album) → Thriller (Michael Jackson album)
 * Lucky Star (song) → Lucky Star (Madonna song)

WP:INCDAB says, "When a more specific title is still ambiguous... it should redirect back to the main disambiguation page". Again, any "primary topic" is "still ambiguous". So why doesn't God redirect to God (disambiguation), or by convention, why hasn't God (disambiguation) been moved to God, because God is still ambiguous. Just to be clear, I do support the concept of primary topic, but what it exactly means or implies needs to be clarified here, as this policy seems to contradict itself. – Wbm1058 (talk) 18:25, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I see. "The title (should be) sufficiently precise to unambiguously identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects." is a goal, not a rule. And of course PT is a valid exception to the !rule. Wbm1058 (talk) 18:40, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Under WP:NATURAL: "If the article is about the primary topic to which the ambiguous name refers, then that name can be its title without modification..." Note that the policy says can, not must. Now, the Disambiguation guideline says "The title of the primary topic article may be different from the ambiguous term." (my emphasis). So, the title of the primary topic article Thriller (Michael Jackson album) may be different from the ambiguous term Thriller (album). Seems there is no policy or guideline that prohibits this, and editors may choose by consensus to do this on a case-by-case basis. The Thriller (album) redirect might be categorized by R from alternative name, as Thriller (album) is indeed an alternative name for Thriller (Michael Jackson album). Wbm1058 (talk) 19:14, 10 October 2013 (UTC) Actually, I think R from incomplete name is even better. Wbm1058 (talk) 16:05, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Clearly the WP:INCDAB guideline doesn't apply in this Thriller example, because the primary topic exception to the !rule overrides that. Wbm1058 (talk) 19:21, 10 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment – I don't think it makes sense to prohibit parenthetical disambiguation for titles with a redirect in this way. Prop 8 and California Proposition 8 redirect to California Proposition 8 (2008) – and "Proposition 8" would too, except there's a protected redirect that I'm trying to get fixed.  I think it's not really debatable that the 2008 measure is the primary topic for "California Proposition 8" and "Proposition 8," so that's why the redirect is to there rather than the the disambiguation page, but I still think that it makes sense to include the parenthetical disambiguation under WP:PRECISE because there are a whole bunch of other Proposition 8s in California, and it also helps with consistency across the California initiative measure article titles.  (California doesn't retire its initiative numbers.)  So overall I think making a blanket rule is unwise because I would guess there are other situations on Wikipedia that aren't that different.  AgnosticAphid  talk 21:44, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Each case must be decided on its merits. Peter coxhead (talk) 08:48, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
 * If you look at Category:Redirects from incomplete names, you can easily envision the firestorm that could erupt with an attempt with an attempt at a stricter policy or guideline. Just one more example: Arromanches (R 95) → French aircraft carrier Arromanches (R95). Distinguish from R-95 Templehof. And I think there was a lot of discussion about sending The Beatles to Beatles. Wbm1058 (talk) 16:22, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
 * There are two issues here:
 * base names redirecting to qualified names: "Foo" redirecting to "Foo (bar)" -- unless the parenthetical is how the topic is referred to in reliable sources (not just in Wikipedia), this is incorrect per WP:PRECISION. Consistency with other articles (articles whose titles actually need qualifiers, because they are not the primary topic for the title) is a foolish consistency.
 * titles with "partial" qualifiers redirect to fuller qualifiers: "Foo (bar)" redirecting to "Foo (Baz bar)" -- this might be used or not used. An earlier VPP discussion went with using the fuller qualifiers, but it didn't stick.
 * -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:16, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, the only situation I've really thought about is the Prop 8 article title, but I don't completely agree with your first point, I don't think. It's true that reliable sources discussing the 2008 measure don't really specify with a parenthetical date that they don't mean the 1982 or 1978 or 1911 Proposition 8, but I can't see how that means that WP:PRECISE prohibits the parenthetical date on Wikipedia.  The central point of WP:PRECISE is, "Usually, titles should be precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but no more precise than that."  It seems to me that the only way to "unambiguously define the topical scope of the article" is to say "Proposition 8 (2008)" because there are four California initiatives with identical names from different years.  Yes, WP:NATURAL says that "as a general rule" you wouldn't want to title a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC article in this way, but I'm still convinced the current Prop 8 title is the best one under WP:PRECISE and point 2 of WP:NATURAL, which says to use a parenthetical disambiguator if there's no natural disambiguation.  So, I think there must be other situations where this is the case on wikipedia, and actually I think that the way the first bullet of WP:NATURAL is written might be a bit too strong.   AgnosticAphid  talk 17:37, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I think JHJ's first point is regarding titles like Proposition 29. Perhaps titles like California Proposition 29 are OK, but adding (2012) when it is not necessary may be going too far, as there seems to be only one prop 29 in all of Wikipedia.
 * The second point may refer to WP:PDAB, which was implemented after a VPP discussion. Wbm1058 (talk) 18:44, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, there are tons of other Prop 29s, too, some of which were successful, they just don't have articles on Wikipedia. I'd still say you can't really "unambiguously define the topical scope of the article" without adding the year.   AgnosticAphid  talk 19:06, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Hey, I agree with you on that! See Talk:Arizona Proposition 200 (2004), where I pointed out that there was another "Arizona Proposition 200" from a different year out on the Internet. Wbm1058 (talk) 19:26, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
 * (ec) Stuff existing but not being covered on Wikipedia isn't ambiguous on Wikipedia, so doesn't necessitate disambiguating qualifiers. If "California Proposition 8" isn't a good enough title for the primary topic for the title "California Proposition 8", it needs a better title (used in reliable sources), not a disambiguating qualifier. Move the year out of the parentheses (or otherwise alter the title) if it's needed for reasons other than disambiguation, or drop it from the primary topic's title if it's only needed for disambiguation. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:29, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
 * A fair point. As parenthetical disambiguation is a special construct on Wikipedia with its own set of conventions, a natural disambiguation alternative would work for me. How about California 2012 Proposition 29 – that more clearly indicates that the disambiguation is not necessarily due to title conflicts within Wikipedia. Wbm1058 (talk) 19:44, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
 * First, it seems to me that because we are in the middle of creating an unfinished encyclopedia with no deadline that an article's title is equally ambiguous, or not ambiguous, regardless of what other wikipedia articles happen to be present at the moment. If I was looking for information about California Proposition 29 from 1998, which has no wikipedia article, I would be glad that the title of the current "California Proposition 29 (2012)" article immediately clarifies that it's not what I'm looking for. I would be equally glad that that's the case even though wikipedia doesn't have the information I actually am looking for. With regard to your second, more important, point, I will keep my eyes peeled for a scholarly article that discusses the four different Proposition 8s at the same time and so needs to disambiguate them, and then we can consider whether to follow that person's naming system, I guess. But "it needs a better title" is not a solution to the issue. As WP:NATURAL instructs, "do not use obscure or made up names." So I don't think that, for instance, "initiative constitutional amendment prohibiting gay marriage in California" is really a better title than "California Proposition 8 (2008)", even if that longer name is so specific as to not require disambiguation (there was a prior voter-enacted gay marriage ban in CA, but it was an initiative statute, not a constitutional amendment). Plus it would be weird to "use a better title" in this situation where the article uses (a disambiguated version of) the common name. So, really, I still think it's silly to say "you can always use the ambiguous name without modification if it's the primary topic."  AgnosticAphid  talk 19:58, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Because there is no deadline and this is a wiki, we can delay disambiguating qualifiers until we need them, otherwise we end up with titles like William Shakespeare (English playwright born c. 1564), just in case later generations yield another English playwright by the name. Attempting to future-proof article titles is a bad approach to titling. When in the future ambiguity is introduced, articles can be moved and qualified as needed and as new topics become primary for old titles. Right, do not use obscure or made-up names, and do not make names more precise than needed. If "California Proposition 8" is not obscure, not made-up, and suitable for reliable sources when referring to the 2008 legislation, then it's suitable for titling the primary topic (if that's the 2008 legislation) -- the reliable source needn't discuss multiple ambiguous topics; that's the point of ever having a primary topic for an ambiguous title. If "California Proposition 8" is obscure or made-up, it shouldn't be the base name at all. If it's not precise enough, that is, if reliable sources need additional qualifiers when they identify the topic, we should improve the title by using the additional qualifiers used in those reliable sources. It seems you may be implying that the WP readership needs to know in the title which prop the article is about -- but that would mean that there is no primary topic and the disambiguation page should be moved to the base name, since the base name alone isn't sufficient for the readership. Which is a viable solution as well. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:37, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
 * There is kind of a major difference between saying that we should disambiguate Prop 29 (2012) because there currently exist notable Proposition 29s from other years even they it haven't had articles written about them yet, which is what I said, and your response that obviously we shouldn't add a lot of superfluous verbiage to William Shakespeare's article title just in case maybe someday in the future another notable person named William Shakespeare is born.  Overall I would say that you're mostly ignoring precision aspect of the article titling policy, which is kind of ironic since you initially used it as a policy justification.  Just because a newspaper article from six months ago about how Proposition 8 was recently overturned doesn't feel compelled to specify "we aren't talking about the Prop 8 from 30 years ago!" doesn't mean that an article on Wikipedia, which really could be talking about the Prop 8 from 30 years ago, should follow suit.  AgnosticAphid  talk 21:21, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
 * There's nothing in my comments about ignoring precision. Overall, adding a parenthetical qualifier to the primary topic for a title is ignoring the precision aspect of the titling policiy, which is actually ironic. If the Wikipedia article on "California Proposition 8" needs to specify which "California Proposition 8" it's talking about in the title, then it's not the primary topic for that title that base title is not a good one and a better base title needs to be used. If it's the primary topic for its "good" title, then it doesn't need a qualifier appended to the title. Simple, and lines up with all the policies and guidelines. -- JHunterJ (talk) 22:01, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
 * This argument has been made before, and the status quo has been "we're disambiguating WP, not the world." I find that disingenuous, as what we're really trying to do is make things clearer to the user. We shouldn't be going too far in either direction. We should disambiguate if there's a likely confusion, whether to a WP article or to something IRL, and we shouldn't disambiguate just for the sake of disambiguation or because there's a remote chance of confusion. JHJ and I will definitely dsagree on that, but I'd like to hear other voices, too. Dovid (talk) 03:20, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * That argument has been made before too, and I find it disingenuous. If the title needs to be made clearer (which isn't a given -- most article just give the WP:COMMONNAME for something and then clarify it with the lead paragraph), then the title can be made clearer without parentheses. If the year is needed for clarity, put it in the title. If the year is just needed to make the title unique, that is, for disambiguation, put it in parentheses. Keeps things clear. -- JHunterJ (talk) 10:53, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Going around in circles. You find it disingenuous, I find that specious. There's no harm, and there is a benefit. Oh, but there is a harm, it doesn't make article titles better! Maybe. Or maybe it does make them better. Does it make them worse? Parentheses make it worse! Says who? Well it's obvious. And so on and so forth. I don't think you quite caught the subtlety of my hobgoblin comment, though I tried to make it obvious my misquoting it. Dovid (talk) 22:05, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Train stations & subway stations and precision
There's a current discussion going on about WP:PRECISION here: Talk:Parkside Avenue (BMT Brighton Line)

Past discussions related to the problem:
 * Wikipedia talk:WikiProject New York City Public Transportation/Archive 15
 * Wikipedia talk:WikiProject New York City Public Transportation/Archive 15
 * Talk:Durham–UNH station
 * Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (stations)
 * Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (stations)
 * Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (stations)
 * Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (stations)
 * Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (stations)
 * Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation/Archive 36
 * Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation/Archive 36
 * Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (music)/Archive 2
 * Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation/Archive 38
 * Wikipedia talk:Article titles/Archive 42

If other editors from the broader consensus would like to participate. If anyone else has had similar conversations on individual article Talk pages, I'd appreciate pointers to them as well. Eventually either this guideline or the project or station naming conventions should be updated to help avoid more churn. Thanks. -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:12, 12 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I do recall a number of discussions on anticipatory/preemptive disambiguation, where a page does not currently need disambiguation but might/is likely to need it in the future. I don't recall details, sorry. For the train articles, I'm inclined to agree with the project guys, because...
 * it meets a specific need (common form of disambiguation for many articles that will need disambiguation in the real world, not necessarily WP)
 * might break a template (not the best policy reason, but very practical)
 * makes for a well-designed set of articles (an argument that seemingly does not carry much weight in policy discussions)
 * I think it would be beneficial for a WP policy change to accommodate this. Dovid (talk) 04:18, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
 * It doesn't meet a specific need; the articles that will need disambiguation in the future can be disambiguated with the common form in the future
 * The redirects left behind when the pages are moved will keep any templates from being broken
 * The title does not break the "design" of a set of articles. Unless you're advocating that we put a qualifier on every title and never have an article at the base name, since that would make for a "well-designed" set of encyclopedia articles. The lede can handle identifying the context of the topic. The title just has to identify the topic.
 * --JHunterJ (talk) 11:00, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I can remember the issue arising in the past, and I favour the preemptive disambiguation. Mainly because eventually we will have the article that will need to occupy the non-disambiguated spot and for the sake of longterm stability of incoming links I prefer not to move articles around needlessly. It is just a twist of interest that rail related articles get more attention by the wiki crowd rather than architectural and road themes. It seems the rail enthusiast are more internet savy. Agathoclea (talk) 11:37, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's very convincing to say that there's no need for disambiguation just because Wikipedia doesn't currently have an article, because disambiguation is supposed to help readers, not people familiar with the scope of Wikipedia's coverage. Also, this idea of a "common disambiguation name" is a bit strange.  But I guess you already knew that I thought that.   AgnosticAphid  talk 16:52, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Let's hurry up and get William Shakespeare moved to William Shakespeare (English playwright born c. 1564) then. Disambiguation is supposed to help readers navigate to the article they sought; they do not exist to teach readers; they exist because one title can't redirect to two topics. No article means no place for a redirect to redirect to (we delete redirects to red links), means nothing on Wikipedia to disambiguate. In the future, when ambiguity on Wikipedia occurs, disambiguation on Wikipedia can address that ambiguity. Just like article text shouldn't predict the future (WP:CRYSTALBALL), neither should article titles. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:22, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
 * But we don't delete red links on dab pages if there are links in multiple articles and the topic is notable, hence deserving of an article. So a question would be at what point do we say that the unwritten articles justify disambiguation for our only article?  Or is it a consideration at all?  Once someone writes at least a stub, then clearly we can discuss primary topic. So maybe that is the point.  If you want to dab our current primary article, write the missing articles and then first one can be moved or discussed for a move. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:42, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed. If there are valid red links and the station needs to be qualified, a disambiguation page should be placed at the base name so that readers can navigate to those other articles that use the red links. And it still looks like "Station" should be part of the base name title, since there are objections to using street names as names for stations, but I suppose that's a discussion for the station naming convention proposal in particular, not for the broader article titles. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:04, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

There are titles with parentheses which are part of the name of an object, not disambiguation. Only one example: Eh, Eh (Nothing Else I Can Say). The New York City Subway stations are the same case: the common use calls them with addition of train letter/digit or line name. Here are some examples for a station whose name is unique, but the train or line still is used: It is part of the recognizable name, not disambiguation. Vcohen (talk) 09:51, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Parkside Av (Q)
 * Parkside Av (Q)
 * Parkside Avenue/BMT Brighton Line
 * Parkside Avenue (Brighton Line)
 * That's an interesting retrofitted rationalization, but it doesn't agree with Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (stations), which notes that they are there for disambiguation, and it also doesn't work for this title in particular: since "Parkside Avenue (BMT Brighton Line)" isn't used by any of the reliable sources to refer to this station, it's not an option for the unqualified name. If Parkside Avenue isn't a good name (and it isn't now that a new article has been created there), it should use Parkside Avenue Station (while no disambiguation is needed) or later, when disambiguation is needed, Parkside Avenue Station (BMT Brighton Line). -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:04, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Why "isn't used"? See my examples above. If you have other examples, show them here. Vcohen (talk) 14:38, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know what it isn't used in your examples. Why are you asking me why the text "Parkside Avenue (BMT Brighton Line)" doesn't appear in your examples? Parkside Avenue Q station, however is used in http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/36/4/dtg_parksideplaza_2013_01_25_bk_.html -- that would be a good name for the article, and IMO better than your examples' Parkside Av (Q), Parkside Avenue/BMT Brighton Line, or Parkside Avenue (Brighton Line). -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:32, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Let's divide the problem into three.
 * Do we need to use some suffix, such as line name or train designation?
 * If we do, which of them is preferable?
 * What is the optimal punctuation?
 * My answers are:
 * Yes, we do, because most sources use some kind of suffix. My examples above refer to this question.
 * For the needs of wikipedia line names are significantly better, because they don't change every several months. I hope you don't want to rename dozens of articles and update hundreds of links every several months and don't want us to do it.
 * Maybe it's worth to change these parentheses to a comma, in order not to cause readers to interpret this suffix as disambiguation.
 * Anyway, it would be wrong to rename some random articles. We have to develop a plan and apply it to the whole list. Vcohen (talk) 12:20, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Let's divide the problem into two.
 * What title should the station topic article have?
 * If the title the station topic article should have isn't available (it has a different primary topic), what should we use to qualify it?
 * My answers are:
 * The common name for the station, as used in reliable sources, or one of them, per WP:COMMONNAME. In this case, Parkside Avenue Q station or possibly Parkside Avenue station; these have the benefit of making it clear that the subject is a station rather than an avenue, which seems to be a sticking point.
 * (station), if there's only one station by that common name, or ( station) or ( station) if there is more than one station non-primary for that name. But if the trains project wants to use just the as the qualifier, that would work too, although it seems like it would be less useful to someone unfamiliar with the subject area. Of course, if there are no other topic for the common name, no qualifier is needed or desired, per WP:PRECISION.
 * JHunterJ (talk) 13:53, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * As you see from my examples, the used name varies from source to source. We have no choice but to decide which of these forms is the most suitable for us. Therefore we have to answer my three questions. Vcohen (talk) 14:14, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * As I see from your examples, "Parkside Avenue (BMT Brighton Line)" is not used, so the "we had no choice but to use it" is false, and our choice is to use a name used in reliable sources. -- JHunterJ (talk) 15:07, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Please don't quote what I didn't say. Vcohen (talk) 15:20, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Please don't pretend there's a source for the title "Parkside Avenue (BMT Brighton Line)". -- JHunterJ (talk) 15:32, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Whoever can read, let him understand. Vcohen (talk) 15:47, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Let's divide the problem into two:
 * In which context?
 * Who cares?
 * My answers are:
 * Does anybody even care? (note: not a response to #2)
 * Leave it alone already! Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  20:05, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
 * A little fact regarding the stations on the stations along the BMT Brighton Line; They serve both the Q train and the B train, which is part of the reason naming the stations after the trains is out of the question. The other is that the B train is a train that uses two different stations with the same name (Seventh Avenue (BMT Brighton Line) and Seventh Avenue (IND Queens Boulevard Line)). -User:DanTD (talk) 16:20, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Much smoke, little light. On the one hand, I think the general practice of not disambiguating where there is nothing else with the same title is a sound practice. On the other hand, I really don't have that much of a problem with using a consistent and standardized convention for naming these station articles. What is inexcusable though, is that there are no redirects from the simple names (or simple variations) to the expanded names. There's no reason that West Eighth Street – New York Aquarium is a redlink when the article is at West Eighth Street – New York Aquarium (New York City Subway). If the project could give a s**t about these aspects of their preciously convoluted naming convention, there would likely be less concerns. older ≠ wiser 20:15, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
 * West Eighth Street – New York Aquarium sounds like a name of a street that is located inside the New York Aquarium, or vice versa (an aquarium on West 8th Street). West Eighth Street – New York Aquarium (New York City Subway) on the other hand is very obviously a subway station. Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  22:49, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
 * But it also passes WP:AT and there are a large number of editors that object to titles that have useful information to describe or locate the place the article is about. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:05, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not necessaryily suggesting the article should be renamed (though I'm not sure the naming convention is quite as well-thought through as the proponents might like to think). The name of the station is "West Eighth Street – New York Aquarium" and that is a reasonable search term for the station (as is West Eighth Street – New York Aquarium station). And to be perfectly honest, West Eighth Street – New York Aquarium (New York City Subway) isn't actually "very obviously a subway station". For someone who knows nothing of NYC, it could very well be a subway line running between West Eighth Street and the aquarium. older ≠ wiser 02:23, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
 * So wouldn't it be West Eighth Street – New York Aquarium (New York City Subway line)? Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  02:09, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Why? Why expect that "line" needs to be distinguished, but that "station" does not? older ≠ wiser 02:22, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Forgetting what I just said, a NYC subway line is always in the format IRT/BMT/IND Line. A subway service is  (New York City Subway service), and a subway car is  (New York City Subway car). So... would you want a subway station to be  (New York City Subway station) when  ( Line) is enough? The latter, in addition to being shorter, disambiguates among the similarly named stations on different lines And by the way, the article is not West Eighth Street – New York Aquarium (New York City Subway), it is West Eighth Street – New York Aquarium (IND Culver Line) or West Eighth Street – New York Aquarium (BMT Brighton Line), being a transfer station to both lines; the station first mentioned is the name of the article that covers both subway stations.  Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  13:02, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but I can't make heads or tails out of what you've just said. The article titled West Eighth Street – New York Aquarium (New York City Subway) is not unambiguous (at least not to someone unfamiliar with the byzantine naming conventions used by the wikiproject). older ≠ wiser 13:49, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I said that the NYCS station articles are in this format: the name of the station, followed by (in parentheses) the name of the line that the station it is on. See above. Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  15:49, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Right, and I said how is that helpful for anyone not steeped in those subtleties? How does a reader unfamiliar with the conventions know that the article titled West Eighth Street – New York Aquarium (New York City Subway) is "very obviously a subway station" as you said above? older ≠ wiser 16:03, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Since it isn't a subway car, a subway line, or a subway service, then, by the process of elimination, it must be a subway station! Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  18:25, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Or eliminate the process of elimination, with West Eighth Street – New York Aquarium subway station. It addresses the problem (poor title) at the source (fixing the title, instead of trying to disambiguate a title where no Wikipedia ambiguity exists). -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:38, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Good. Now where is the subway station located? Is it on the BMT Brighton Line, or is it on the IND Culver Line? Could it be on both lines? Which subway system is it? Is it even in New York? Or could it be located in some distant country? Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  00:13, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * And how do your comments reflect what the guidance in WP:AT is? Vegaswikian (talk) 00:26, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Epicgenius, you do realize there's an entire article underneath the title, right? I haven't clicked through, but I'm willing to wager that the lead paragraph answers the usual journalistic/encyclopedic when/where/how/how much/why questions, leaving the title to address the who or what (aka "the topic"). I'd even bet there'a an infobox specific to it that will help the reader find that info. Good. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:03, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * What if someone doesn't have the time to click the link to see which line it's on? Or, if another station with that exact name were built on the IRT Nostrand Avenue Line for example, how would you be able to tell the two stations apart? Please don't say West Eighth Street – New York Aquarium (New York City Subway station on the IRT Nostrand Avenue Line) because that's ridiculous. Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  12:27, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed, that's ridiculous. But it's the same ridiculous-ness in the current "naming" (actually, disambiguating) convention. You seem to be concerned with how to deliver encyclopedic information to a reader without an encyclopedia -- that is, the hypothetical poor harried user who only has time to see the list of autocomplete titles in the search box, but doesn't have time to read the article's lead paragraph or Infobox. Not only do I doubt such a user exists, I also would rather focus on the needs of "encyclopedia users" over "search box user". Perhaps someone would like to start the sister project "Wikisearchboxresults.org", but I don't think it's viable. If another station with that exact name were built, then (and only then) we would disambiguate them with a disambiguating qualifier. We wouldn't try to disambiguate every article on Wikipedia in anticipation of every hypothetical future article that could ever be written (see also WP:CRYSTALBALL). Future Wikipedia can take care of itself. -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:51, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, so basically, you want to rename all the articles to comply with "regulations", when in reality the moves would create more problems than they are worth. Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  16:44, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Epicgenius, you didn't answer the question. Your process of elimination assumes intimate familiarity with the complexities of the conventions used only on Wikipedia. older ≠ wiser 18:50, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Why rename the stations? It's a lot of work, not to mention the number of templates that need to be changed. Also it will no longer conform to WP:NYPT conventions. Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  00:13, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, that's kind of the point — it's the WP:NYPT conventions that need to be fixed to conform with more general Wikipedia practices. older ≠ wiser 01:58, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Why reinvent the wheel? Don't change the guidelines. They're fine right now as they are. Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  12:27, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Except for the problems raised here. WP:PRECISION and WP:LOCALCONSENSUS are fine right now as they are. -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:51, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * , So on the one hand we have NYPT project members hunkered down in their bunkers with blinders on loudly proclaiming WP:NOTBROKEN whilst on the other, various and diverse non-project members point out problems that the WP:LOCALCONSENSUS around those conventions cause. older ≠ wiser 16:24, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * And so on, ad infinitum. Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  17:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed with Bkonrad. West Eighth Street – New York Aquarium does not sound like a station, right, so it may be a bad name for the station. The way to improve titles is to improve titles, not to add qualifiers to bad titles. West Eighth Street – New York Aquarium station or West Eighth Street – New York Aquarium subway station would be good titles for making it title-clear that the subject is a subway station. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:45, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Sometimes, consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. Sometimes, consistency is a steady world. Sometimes consistency is inconsistent. Oh, bother. There's no doubt that there's no consensus here. We have a rule for that, which is to give deference to creators and long-established names. That would seem to imply that existing articles get to keep their names, even if the title is IAR. But new articles would have to follow the general rules. Doing the above would meet the standard rules of consensus, but it would be Strange Days Indeed. Anyway, here's a summary of the participants:
 * Favoring WP top level conventions
 * JHunterJ
 * Vegaswikian
 * Fram (+)
 * Cuchullain (+)
 * BD2412 (+)
 * Favoring a specific format for train projects (without regard to what that format might be)
 * Agathoclea
 * Dovid
 * Vcohen
 * DanTD (+)
 * Unclear
 * Bkonrad (expresses a grudging support of the special naming for stations, but thinks the train project naming is seriously broken in other ways)
 * AgnosticAphid
 * EpicGenius (I think supports special naming for stations, but I’m not sure)
 * Mackensen (+)
 * some ninja edits were performed to clarify and tabulate
 * Dovid (talk) 03:25, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Right, a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. The consistency of forcing disambiguating parentheticals on titles that aren't ambiguous to be consistent with titles that are ambiguous is a foolish consistency. We even have a rule for it, WP:PRECISION, and another rule to say that the creators and project can't simply ignore the broader consensus, WP:LOCALCONSENSUS -- a guideline which could be added to your "favoring the WP top-level conventions" list to represent the Wikipedia view. And we know that new articles following the general rules will get moved to the less-general consensus as soon as one of the NYPT project members discovers them, in the name of the foolish consistency. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:03, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * See List of New York City Subway stations if you haven't seen it already. If you have, then look at it again. Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  12:29, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * See this discussion, and the linked past discussions, if you haven't already. If you have, then look at them again. -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:51, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Did I take a position that you found for your survey? If I have taken a position is that I support adding information to titles that helps readers not familiar with the topic. Please see my comments in other like discussions before you draw any conclusions. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:42, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Just use the naming conventions all other projects / pages use. "We need to add a disambiguator becaues otherwise it doesn't look like the name of a station" is nonsense. Polykleitos sounds like a drug or a plastic to me. I haven't gotten a clue what Argolis is without looking at the article. What is Orange Caramel? Consequences of War? If these are normally referred to as XX station, then name the articles XX station, no problem. But only disambiguate when truly necessary, when we have multiple XX station articles that need to be disambiguated; don't disambiguate out of habit or because you believe our readers will be too stupid to find or understand the articles otherwise. What makes stations so special that our normal rules don't apply? They often have the same name? So do people. Their names don't make it clear what and where the subject is? Yep, that's standard practice for all articles, that's why we have an article underneath it. Fram (talk) 12:42, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Related problems
I'm late to the party, but I've had related issues with Wikiproject Trains members in the past at articles related to the Jacksonville Skyway. The articles have since been merged, but the discussions can be found at: Talk:San Marco Station, [Talk:Jefferson Station, and especially Talk:Kings Avenue Station, and to an extent at Talk:Jacksonville Skyway. The argument was the same: a project member claimed it was imperative station articles not have the word "station" in the title, but that they all have "(JTA Skyway)" whether there were ambiguous articles or not (in most cases there weren't, and the base titles were still red links after 7 years). The only justification they ever gave was unspecified "naming conventions". What I took from this was that this is just some internal Wikiproject Trains convention, and that some members care way more about this "naming convention" than actually improving the affected articles. In this case, the issue was dissolved as the content contributors just kept working, going by the more usual practices and ultimately deciding to merge most station articles into the main Jacksonville Skyway page (which the project member also didn't like). It's clear to basically everyone outside the project that this is an arbitrary convention that's out of step with both WP:AT and practice at nearly all other articles. There's no reason the normal disambiguation policies and practices shouldn't be followed.--Cúchullain t/ c 16:09, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * What you have stated is not quite true. I'm not a member of the project, but I have no problem with the convention. Bkonrad stated that while he generally supports the minimization of disambig title, and has other issues with the project, he is not against the naming convention. And it seems to me that you may be mistaking the passion project members have for everything trains with passion for the titles issue -- because your argument with them over a few titles is the only context where you've interacted with them. Finally, while you may not agree with the reasons, or don't find the reasons compelling enough to create an exception, saying there's "no reason" is just not so. Apologies if I am making too many assumptions here. Dovid (talk) 16:45, 22 October 2013 (UTC)


 * So? WMATA, CTA, LACMTA, and other systems all are named Station name, or if they're lucky, Station name . You want to rename these too? Go for it. Try renaming the 1000+ pages and see what happens. Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  16:41, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Epicgenius, while I agree with your position, I think you do yourself no favor by being combative. Also, this reasoning doesn't work at all on its own: what you are saying is "if we are wrong about the naming convention, well it is too hard to fix." Yes, in one shot, but they will, over time, migrate to whichever position is accepted. Dovid (talk) 16:48, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * (ec) Or, you know, make changes piecemeal, in the usual WP:GNOME-like fashion. One of the benefits of the Wiki format is that creation and improvement can occur incrementally. If the project members would stop reverting those improvements, we could continue to "go for it" without all this churn (see my original post in this section and Talk:Parkside Avenue (BMT Brighton Line). -- JHunterJ (talk) 16:51, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * My thoughts exactly. It's pretty clear this arbitrary wikiproject standard only holds up because it's been "railroaded" into so many articles that a Catch-22 argument can be made that "this station's article can't follow the usual policy or it'll be different than all the other ones, which we've also ensured don't follow usual policy". Opening up individual articles for wider discussion without all this edit warring and backlash will allow us to see what the community really thinks about this titling standard.--Cúchullain t/ c 17:31, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * While ridiculous, that actually makes sense.  Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  17:41, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Even though I agree with you, I am not the one that made these regulations. If I could change them, I would. However, the new names you are proposing are too ambiguous. Therefore, you have to stop moving the articles to their new page names. They mess up the station layout templates used on over 100 pages—for example, see Template:NYCS Platform Layout IRT Pelham Line/local and Template:NYCS Platform Layout IRT Flushing Line/local. Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  17:37, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * None of the names I have proposed are ambiguous with any other Wikipedia article title. No "regulations" are being discussed. Stations can use their common names without qualification, just like bridges, buildings, mountains, films, etc. If there's a fear that the reader won't know the article is about a train station, tack "train station" (or just "station") onto the title, but not as a parenthetical disambiguation phrase. I can continue to move pages in accordance with WP:PRECISION. Since the moves left the redirects in place, no station layout templates were messed up. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:21, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The main point behind the comment I posted above is about being considerate in relation to other articles. Since the layout templates use the page name as a significant component of the template, moving the pages also involves fixing the template. If I, for example, moved the page 103rd Street – Corona Plaza (IRT Flushing Line) to 103rd Street – Corona Plaza station, then the Template:NYCS Platform Layout IRT Flushing Line/local/next template will also change value; i.e. from 111th Street to  (IRT Flushing Line), the latter of which is a useless value.  Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  19:37, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * If redirects are left in place, why would the templates break? older ≠ wiser 19:51, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * See Template:BASEPAGENAME. That is the template used in the station layouts. Now do you see why this is important? Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  20:07, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Stop avoiding the question. If nothing breaks, why is this an issue?  Keeping links working for readers is the concern.  How the links work behind the scenes is not the issue. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:57, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * How stuff appears for the readers is also an issue. It breaks. Even if it were a redirect to the same article. it would still break. It needs to link to the EXACT articles. Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  00:06, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, you are claiming it breaks. How?  Why does it need to the exact title? You make claims and they don't appear logical to most of us. Vegaswikian (talk) 00:23, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I can bring up at least two examples. The platform layout template on East 143rd Street – St. Mary's Street (IRT Pelham Line) did not work when I moved the template to East 143rd Street–St. Mary's Street (IRT Pelham Line), which is a redirect to the same article. Also, having a redirect to Woodside – 61st Street (IRT Flushing Line) did not work for the platform layout template when I first transcluded it onto the article (it was a redirect to 61st Street – Woodside (IRT Flushing Line) and needed to be fixed, or else it would have been messed up. So I fixed the next station templates). Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  13:38, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I have saved the first one here, but can't find nothing that breaks. Can you point out exactly what the problem is? Fram (talk) 13:48, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * See this diff Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  14:26, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * That diff gives "no difference", and nothing seems to be broken. Please, explain, point to the exact problem, tell me what worked in version X and not in version Y. Simply tell me where I can find the difference between and, please. Fram (talk) 14:37, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, you missed it. That's alright. Please make these two edits. Then purge your cache and look at the platform layout for the East 143rd Street article. Tell me what you see for the next-stop links. After you are done, please revert the platform layout next-stop edits, as they are broken and I am trying to work o a way to fix them. Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  16:49, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The templates will break with page moves. The next and prev templates are hard-coded to use the pagename of the current page to determine the next and previous stations.  If the pages are moved, the templates will need to be updated.  However, if articles are moved one line at a time, whoever is doing the moving can update the templates to keep the links working.  Fram, the reason that your test with the page move did work is because Epicgenius has been playing with the #default switch in the prev and next templates - and he hard coded the previous and next stations in (which should not be there normally).  Ordinarily, the #default switch in the template is never met (and if it did, it wouldn't work properly because of the coding - so requiring the same disambiguating term on all the articles in the same line is not needed).  --Scott Alter (talk) 19:27, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Scottalter, for explaining in one paragraph what I have been trying to explain to Fram the entire day. Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  20:10, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Allright, thanks. So this is a problem with a poor template (too much hardcoded info), and ironically caused because you want to display the stations without the disambiguator... Nothing insurmountable, and nothing that applies to most station articles anyway. E.g. I moved Alkali Flat / La Valentina over two years ago, and nothing is or was broken with that move. Still, it was opposed because it didn't follow the disambiguation used on all these stations, whether necessary or not. Fram (talk) 11:12, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes... that's a good summary of what is going on with the templates. By the way, the NYCS Platform Layout templates use to find a string which might, for example, find "IRT White Plains Line" in the title. So the line name should somehow be kept, or else new templates would need to be written. Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  14:10, 24 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Let me be clear. I do not agree with the NYPT conventions as they are currently formulated. I would be OK with a naming convention that specified a particular form for types of entities within the domain that might ordinarily be seen as unnecessary disambiguation IF (and that is a big if) the NYPT members were more conscientious about cleaning up the mess the convention leave in its wake. Once again, there is no excuse whatsoever for West Eighth Street – New York Aquarium to be a redlink when the article is at West Eighth Street – New York Aquarium (New York City Subway). At the bare minimum, the project should recognize that their precious convention deviates from the norm and should attempt to be good citizens to do what they can to address the legitimate issues that have been raised by various and sundry non-project editors. As a secondary issue, I think the convention also stinks in selecting a name such as West Eighth Street – New York Aquarium (New York City Subway) instead of West Eighth Street – New York Aquarium station and then adding qualifications where needed. Strictly speaking the "station" is an unnecessary disambiguation, but it adds considerably to the natural language recognizability of the article title. As I've done with townships in Michigan and as various other projects have done, it is a pretty simple matter (although not without some labor required) to set up a table of links, starting with what the name of the article should be under the applicable naming convention, and then having additional columns with various permutations to ensure all the most likely redirects are created (such as X station, X (New York City Subway), X service and so forth, including the simple base name X if the convention specifies something else as the title). In the course of doing this, you may find that there are other entities with the same or similar base names and as appropriate, create a disambiguation page for the base name or add the entity to the disambiguation page. older ≠ wiser 17:11, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I didn't mean to imply otherwise, and I noted your reservations in the summary. Also, to be clear, I am not a member of the trains project, and probably closest in position to you (i.e., follow the rules, but flexible if there's a decent reason to have a collection of articles with a deviating convention). And I think your point about needing redirects is spot on. Dovid (talk) 23:26, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * This is exactly what happened with my Jacksonville Skyway example - we moved the articles from "xxx (JTA Skyway)" to "xxx Station", and "xxx Station (JTA Skyway)" if there was an ambiguous station article, cf. Rosa Parks Transit Station.--Cúchullain t/ c 17:53, 22 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Here are the problems with your renaming of the Jacksonville Skyway stations, Cuchullain; Rosa Parks Transit Station is too similar of a name with Rosa Parks Hempstead Transit Center. Kings Avenue Station could refer to any "Kings Avenue" in the English speaking world. And as I mentioned San Marco Station is one letter away from San Marcos Station. JHunterJ's crusade, which is also shared by Fram takes away any association with the railroads, railroad systems, or railroad lines. -User:DanTD (talk) 20:16, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure, sure, and there are hundreds of other titles that are too similar with other titles too, which is why distinguish exists; it's not a reason for your crusade to disambiguating titles that aren't ambiguous with other Wikipedia titles. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:44, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The problem is that whenever predisambiguation, which this could be considered as, is raised it does not gain a consensus, with a few specific exceptions. Personally I don't object to titles being slightly less concise if the extra information is good for readers. We have hat notes to deal with similar article names, so that is not really an issue here. But when you consider the options in some of the example above, New York City Subway is simply to long and actually inaccurate since it is not a subway.  Station is accurate and informative, however some may find that it is not a complete description of what this is.  But titles are not required to do that.  So can this be addressed by tweaking WP:CONCISE? Vegaswikian (talk) 20:55, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Of course it's not a subway. It is part of the subway. Therefore, the name is justified. Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  23:23, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * My crusade? One comment here, and the last one, what, a few years ago? That's not a crusade at medieval speed, but at glacial speed... Kings Avenue Station could refer to any Kings Avenue in the world, but Kings Avenue (JTA Skyway) is clear as to what it means? For me, a skyway doesn't make me think of rail transport, and JTA could be anything, anywhere. You are not just writing for members of your project, you know? Kings Avenue Station is a better title than Kings Avenue (JTA Skyway), not because it follows our general policies and guidelines better, but because it is more obvious and clear than the Train Project naming convention one. Fram (talk) 20:54, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, your crusade! You've been pulling this crap since you screwed up the names of the Sacramento RT and MAX Light Rail station articles. If people like you had your way, the former Louisville and Nashville Depot (Milton, Florida) would still link to the NRHP lists in Illinois! Until I came along and gave it that qualifier you hate so much, that's exactly what it did! -User:DanTD (talk) 15:59, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * DanTD, I'll probably just ignore you from now on. The Louisville and Nashville Depot (Milton, Florida) was moved to that title in 2007 by Cool Hand Luke, and hasn't been moved since, so I have no idea what you are trying to claim with your rather heated comment. I have never edited that article. And it is one that clearly needs disambiguation. So what is the problem? Better yet, indicate what the problem is with things like Alkali Flat / La Valentina, moved over two years ago and not causing any problems since then... Fram (talk) 11:06, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Cool Hand Luke only moved it because I tried to move it myself and did so improperly. I was new to Wikipedia at the time and didn't know how to do everything. Even if you ignore me personally, you shouldn't ignore this fact! ---User:DanTD (talk) 15:13, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * So? What's about JTA that it doesn't deserve mentioning in the title? Having "Kings Avenue Station" is just too ambiguous, since it could refer to any station on any Kings Avenue in the world, and only then does it get disambiguation. Why not make "JTA Skyway station" a standard suffix? Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  23:23, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Using (Jacksonville Skyway) for disambiguation is probably fine, remembering that I believe that information in the titles can be ok but is not supported by WP:AT. Using (JTA Skyway station) is not since it is useless to the average reader.  So are we naming article for readers or for subject experts? Vegaswikian (talk) 23:53, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * So is (New York City Subway) vs. " station". Some articles that belong to the former group (like 145th Street (New York City Subway)) are disambiguation articles. Some, like Canal Street (New York City Subway), are station articles. It is sometimes confusing. Therefore, it does not lie to me to decide the name of the article. Anyway, all the JTA articles are redirects to the Jacksonville Skyway. The sole exception is Rosa Parks Transit Station, so who cares? Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  00:04, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The only reason all the JTA articles are redirects to the Jacksonville Skyway article is because Liamdavies and Cuchullain made them that way. And what's worse is that Cuchullain thinks all the Port Authority Trans-Hudson stations articles should be merged. -User:DanTD (talk) 15:53, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The articles for PATH stations are notable. I say no to the merge (which would have been reverted anyway). Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  19:20, 27 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I think it might have been a kindness to advise the associated WikiProjects that this discussion was on-going. Mackensen (talk) 18:57, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The following users are trying to reinvent the square wheel here:
 * JHunterJ
 * Vegaswikian
 * Fram (+)
 * Cuchullain (+)
 * BD2412 (+)

See list above. Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage) 23:23, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Epicgenius, how does such a comment help this discussion in any way? Disparaging those that have a different point of view, just for the sake of disparagement, is unconstructive. Fram (talk) 07:09, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I Stole the list from above. It's not my list. Also, I find it quite queer that all the users on this list are sysops. Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  13:48, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'm aware where you got that list from. The list is not the problem. It doesn't explain why you made the comment. And that these users are admins is probably meaningless, although it may be that most admins have a rather wide view of Wikipedia and notice quite clearly when some group of articles differs from the accepted standards in some way. Fram (talk) 14:14, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Then, please do not fix stuff that are not broken. The titles are not bad, so please don't try to redirect the articles solely for the sake of top-level naming conventions which would affect the articles in other ways beside the broken templates. Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  14:22, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Nothing "broken" has been shown so far. Fram (talk) 14:37, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I guess this discussion is going nowhere. I am not trying to reinvent anything.  I have made it clear that I have issues the WP:AT and with WP:NYPT.  I could observe that you are trying to make repeating statements ad infinitum, as you said above, hoping that doing so makes for a strong argument.  At this point, your argument seems to be firmly grounded in WP:ILIKEIT.  We can't change the names to improve them for readers, we can't modify the template if it has issues.  We can't do anything except to accept the status quo.

If I may state the obvious, Trains WikiProject editors treat articles as a group and not as individual articles. Consistent preemptive disambiguation makes perfect sense in that context. Personally, I would prefer adopting the "suffix" standard used by WP:UKRS but I've never had any traction. In either case, I would prefer to see articles named consistently with each other and according to a defined standard. Coming together to formulate and document an actual standard instead of renaming articles one at a time, inconsistently, would be a far more productive use of everyone's time. Mackensen (talk) 19:49, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * And if I may state the obvious, some Trains WikiProject editors treat the group of train articles in a vacuum, without consideration of the Wikipedia project's broader consensus. Consistency in so-called "preemptive disambiguation" is a foolish consistency, and makes no more sense for trains that it does for films, skyscrapers, mountains, or playwrights. If there is something really required in a title, put it in the title, not in the disambiguating phrase, since the disambiguating phrase is obviously not needed if there is no other article to be ambiguous with. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:44, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Following from JHunterJ, I would further say that unambiguous topics should consistently be at titles with no disambiguator; ambiguous topics should be at titles with consistent disambiguators. That is all. bd2412  T 21:29, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, but it's consistency all the same, and TWP is far from the only project with a parochial outlook, and its editors deserve to be treated with respect. Calling things "foolish" doesn't really advance the discussion. It's not especially obvious who benefits from these renames, and from the perspective of TWP's editors, who do the bulk of the work on these articles, naming articles inconsistently increases their workload. I'm not surprised there's pushback. If I were going about this, I'd work with TWP's editors to articulate a standard. Mackensen (talk) 21:31, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The "foolish consistency" is in reference to Emerson's quotation, which Dovid also referenced (although they dropped the "foolish", but still kept the "hobgoblin" part). I'd be happy to work with any TWP editor's who were happy to work with us; in practice, any attempts at improvement are instead met with reverts and incivility. -- JHunterJ (talk) 10:59, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

There's a draft proposal in my userspace at User:Mackensen/Naming conventions (US stations). I've worked on this off and on over the years. It would eliminate preemptive disambiguation but leave a vestige of station in article titles. This ought to be satisfactory to most people, but it needs attention. I would welcome comments and refactoring there. Mackensen (talk) 21:49, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Good idea. However, a problem is that one station name won't solve all the NYC Subway's problems. For example, rather than Times Square – 42nd Street station, use Times Square – 42nd Street station (IRT Flushing Line) or Times Square – 42nd Street station (BMT Broadway Line) for Times Square (IRT Flushing Line) and Times Square – 42nd Street (BMT Broadway Line), respectively. This solve the problems with several stations being included in one article about a station complex. But it doesn't solve the problems of stations on different lines sharing names, or even stations on the same line that share a name. Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  23:11, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Train stations & subway stations and precision - an alternative proposal
The above discussion diverted (thankfully!) into a proposal instead of a never ending, circling, high-level policy discussion. To preserve sanity and ediing window size, I've moved this section to its own new main section,. Dovid (talk) 18:43, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

What is this about?
I was just wondering, is this about station names in general or about those in the North American continent? Many countries have their own sets of rules when it comes to station naming conventions. Simply south...... cooking letters for just 7 years 13:38, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Basically about New York City Subway naming conventions, which turned into an argument about whether articles about stations in metro systems around the world should or should not have parentheses. Epicgenius (give him tirade • check out damage)  13:58, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Not just metro systems, some people use the same disambiguation system for regular (light) train lines as well, e.g. Category:Sacramento Regional Transit District, but also Pleasanton station, no, Pleasanton Station, no, Pleasanton (ACE station), and many similar ones. Fram (talk) 14:33, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * It's primarily stations in the United States in general, and it's not just "some people" that use this. -User:DanTD (talk) 15:31, 24 October 2013 (UTC)