Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Charlie Don't Surf (song)

Closing administrator's rationale
'''If you choose to provide any follow-up comments on this rationale, please do so in a SEPARATE section below it. Do NOT interrupt my comments here.'''

I must say that in all the AfD's that I have closed, I have rarely seen such a plethora of weak arguments (on both sides). It was as if for a little while all the notability guidelines were thrown away as some freaky expirament to see how we would run things if it were just our like and don't like-iness and gut feel that prevailed.

The relevant notability guideline is WP:Music which refers back to WP:N, and offers this additional guidance: Most songs do not merit an article and should redirect to another relevant article, such as for a prominent album or for the artist who wrote or prominently performed the song. Songs that have been ranked on national or significant music charts, that have won significant awards or honors or that have been performed independently by several notable artists, bands or groups are probably notable. A separate article is only appropriate when there is enough verifiable material to warrant a reasonably detailed article; permanent stubs should be merged to articles about an artist or album.

So we are looking for any of the following:
 * ranked on national or significant music charts
 * won significant awards or honors
 * performed independently by several notable artists
 * significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject.

As well as:
 * enough verifiable material to warrant a reasonably detailed article

Raw count analysis

 * Delete
 * 1) R. fiend (5 afd edits) (afd nominator) (4 major article edits)
 * 2) TenPoundHammer (1 afd edit)
 * 3) RepublicanJacobite (1 afd edit)
 * 4) John (1 afd edit)
 * 5) Doc Strange (3 afd edits)
 * 6) SilkTork (1 afd edit) (2 major article edits)


 * Keep
 * 1) Pjoef (7 afd edits) (44 major article edits, 12 minor article edits)
 * 2) Corvus cornix (2 afd edits)


 * No recommendation
 * 1) Shapiros10 (3 afd edits)

Arguments

 * Valid delete Arguments
 * not one of Rolling Stone's top 50 greatest Clash songs (unverified at time of nom)
 * little to be said about it
 * does not meet WP:MUSIC in any way
 * sources: 1) a blog, 2) uses line from song to illustrate point, 3) mentions song exists


 * Non-valid delete arguments
 * not a single
 * not one of the more popular songs by this band
 * a critic said it was one of their best songs, but this is POV
 * never on a Greatest Hits album
 * not in the box set by this band
 * no video
 * been performed live, like most songs
 * on some bootlegs - hardly remarkable
 * takes its name from a line in Apocalypse Now - that's significant
 * hardly worth an article
 * Most Clash songs do not have articles
 * song is an album filler
 * fans like me don't like it
 * obscure
 * Per nom - convinced me
 * not significant enough for an article
 * A redirect is useless here anyway, as no one is going to search for Charlie Don't Surf (song), they'll search for Charlie Don't Surf, and get a Veronica Mrs episode
 * song does not warrant an article more than so many others
 * not even one of the greatest songs on side 5 of Sandinista
 * sources do not establish it being particularly well known, or influential
 * covered by an unknown band on an out of print album almost no one's heard of
 * isn't notable enough
 * not important enough for Wikipedia
 * isn't even a notable song on The triple album from where it appears
 * nor a notable album track (unfortunately)
 * new material added to article is trivial information which merely emphasizes the point that there is nothing significant to be said about the song
 * violates NPOV by stating some journalists' opinions
 * cites blogs
 * states concerts where song was played in article
 * uses google results as content for article
 * has slogan on a tee-shirt in article
 * information belongs on a fan site
 * too many references, too much content
 * Some of the "references" are duplicate web pages
 * some of the sources do not support what the article is saying
 * full of bluster which distorts the reality of the song's standing


 * Valid keep arguments
 * review made by Stephen Thomas Erlewine: “Amid all the dub experiments, backward tracks, unfinished songs, and instrumentals, there are a number of classic Clash songs that rank among the band's best, including "Police on My Back," "The Call Up," "Somebody Got Murdered," "Charlie Don't Surf," "Hitsville U.K.," and "Lightning Strikes (Not Once but Twice)," yet it's difficult for anyone but the most dedicated listeners to find them.”
 * THE ARTICLE WAS CREATED TODAY
 * added some info and sources
 * article in first day, and "under construction" when tagged for deletion


 * Non-valid keep arguments
 * no specific guidelines for the notability of songs
 * one of the greatest political songs in the whole music history
 * Keep, well-known, influential song
 * 26 years old well–known influential song is a poetry
 * a lot of stubs on Wikipedia and the majority of songs do not meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines
 * "Charlie Don't Surf" was performed live many many times and every time in a different way???
 * It is an influential song
 * deserves to be on Wikipedia!
 * "Charlie" is the main charecter of side five
 * song meets WP:MUSIC because it is an anti-war, anti-racism song that involves so important themes like the Vietnam War, veterans, the Strategic Defense Initiative and many more
 * not filler
 * one of their best songs

Summary
In the end, this article does not cross the imaginary threshold alluded-to in WP:MUSIC. As it says, most songs will not warrant an article. I close this debate, therefore, as delete. If any editor would like this article userfied so that they can attempt to improve it, or to incorporate it into the band or album article, please ask me.  Jerry  talk ¤ count/logs 03:09, 27 February 2008 (UTC)