Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Colby's Clubhouse (2nd nomination)

Coverage of the topic in newly introduced sources
"Programs such as Colby's Clubhouse are instructional kids are shown how to cope in all kinds of situations using biblical principles..."
 * USA Religious News (questionable reliability):

"Colby's Clubhouse educates and informs children between the ages of 6-12 about how to successfully deal with everyday situations and challenges using Bible principles."
 * TBN (non-independent):

"He gave piano lessons and taught music at Calvary Chapel, started a kids' TV series, "Colby's Clubhouse," that ran on Trinity Broadcasting Network."
 * OCRegister:

"[Google translation] This is a video from the series "Colby's Club All copyrights acknowledged. Titles on video are original (meaning I made those). This is a video from the series" Colby's Clubhouse "which was a show on TBN which featured various kids performing (mostly original) songs along with the eponymous computer with the entire Bible programmed into memory. The format was somewhat like a Christian version of the 1980's Disney series" Kids Incorporated ". Note about my videos from this show: Sometimes (for some strange reason) they have the Colby kids lip-singing to songs previous cast members actually recorded in studio, especially near the show's end. To that end, my use of the term "Featured "by the cast member's name pertains to who is shown.From the Colby's Birthday episode, we get another series classic in this song featuring Beau Clark & Zane Gerson. But what makes this video special is guest vocals by three Colby alumni: Phil Metzger ( now working at a Calvary Chapel Bible School in Eastern Europe); Mindi Metzger and choreographer / floor director Christi Ebenhoch (series creator Peter Jacobs' daughter)."
 * Joyful Hearts Music (questionable reliability & non-independent): product listing of six videos
 * sagol.tv (questionable reliability & non-independent) : product listing of fifteen videos &

I do not think that this meets WP:GNG: "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". HrafnTalkStalk(P) 18:15, 15 April 2009 (UTC)


 * One cannot quote only guideline to which one agrees and ignore the rest, nor can one ignore the caveat that heads every guideline page, "Best treated with common sense and the occasional exception". If so, then its time then to rewrite WP:OUTCOMES which states "Television series broadcast nationally by a major network or produced by a major studio are notable."
 * TBN is offered as simple WP:Verification of a non contentious fact and as such is specifically allowed per guideline.
 * Orange County Register is aloso offered as a independent relianle source to WP:Verify a fact, as guideline instructs.
 * Joyful Hearts Music is not owned by Colby's Clubhouse and so is allowable as WP:V of videos and music being sold.
 * Sagol.tv is independent of Trinity Broadcast Network and is also allowed to WP:Verfy non contentious facts.
 * This article is a Christian show for very very small kids, so is unlikely to have the "popularity" on online fan presence like The Simpsons or Star Trek (however, there does appear to be at least one unofficial fan site for it. Can one call that a "cult following" if speaking about small children and Christianity?). A television show that lasted 3 seasons and is STILL on air on the largest Christian network in the world is notable by any definition, and need not have headlines in the New York Times to appease narow interpretations of inclusion guidelines. And further, the article acts to curb a growing systemic bias toward Christian religious shows and programming here on enWikipedia, as the 5 million + households who watch such shows should not be easily dismissed or ignored, as their viewership is not "inherited notability", its fact.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 02:29, 16 April 2009 (UTC)


 * "Ignore the rest"? What about WP:NME to which WP:OUTCOMES refers to:
 * Trinity Broadcasting Network is not a "major network" -- contrast List of United States over-the-air television networks
 * TBN broadcasts, and Joyful Hearts Music & Sagol.tv sell Colby's Clubhouse products, therefore they are not "independent".
 * That "This article is a Christian show for very very small kids..." is an explanation why this topic is not notable, not an argument why it is notable.
 * HrafnTalkStalk(P) 03:52, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
 * HrafnTalkStalk(P) 03:52, 16 April 2009 (UTC)


 * WP:OUTCOMES: "Television series broadcast nationally by a major network or produced by a major studio are notable" is a succint summary of this article's notability. And your WP:WAX arguments above seem like WP:ATA. Kinda hard to not make comparisons to other articles or situations, huh? Whether arguing to delete or defending it. And you pointed out yourself, even if trying to dismiss it, that TBN is indeed a major broadcast network. The "list" to which you refer segregates by type of network, but does nothing to diminish the numbers... and fact that it IS a major station. No one said it was THE major station (though it is for Christian broadcasting)... but is definitely A major station reaching over 23 million households. Thank you and best regards,  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 06:02, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
 * As demonstrated above TBN is NOT a "major network", WP:OUTCOMES therefore does NOT apply. Your invocation of WP:WAX is wholly tendentious, in that I was NOT making a "What about article x?", merely offering List of United States over-the-air television networks as a contrast as to what a genuine "major network" looked like. Thank you for your spurious and tendentious misrepresentation of my argument. It reveals your continuous whining about WP:AGF on the AfD to be utterly hypocritical. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 06:41, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The "tenditiousness" is not mine, as your own provided wiki-list shows TBN to be major... the TOP of its category... and so WP:OUTCOMES most definitely applies. Calling TBN not genuine as a network is a disservice to them and their 23 million+ viewers in the United States and the uncounted numbers world-wide, as they are indeed genuine and represent a mjor portion of United States viewers. And comments about Arguments to avoid began with you rown initial rebukes of my first comments on the discussion page. Calling my defense of the article and the ministry as "whining" and my attempts at good faith with you as "utterly hypocritical" are incivil. Refute the facts you yourself presented, or please cease.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 18:10, 16 April 2009 (UTC)