Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Davien Crow (2nd nomination)

(unaltered copy-paste of extremely extensive comment by User:G4DGET on subject of AfD. Reproduced here because its length made the project page difficult to read; extended commentaries amounting to essays are better placed, if anywhere, on Talk pages. Will refactor project page to ensure fair inclusion of User:G4DGET's main points.— enceph alon  09:33, 27 September 2005 (UTC))

MY ARGUMENT ABOUT WHY THESE ARTICLES SHOULD BE KEPT
FIRST There is no "he" adding this, there is a SHE adding the information. I am, I run this Sin Star fan site. I think You guys are breaking 1 rule of your own beloved Wikipedia. "Avoid bias. Articles should be written from a neutral point of view, representing differing views on a subject factually and objectively." Policies_and_guidelines READ IT b/c some of you guys are being totally biased towards the articles and are the equivelant of a sockpuppet simply by voting to delete it because of your loyalty to your fellow accomplished wikipedian. The rest of you simply have not reviwed the information at all, or only took the word of the person trying to delete it as true. In many cases the deletion nominators have provided false information (perhaps to try to get it deleted harder). Davien is an published writer in a well known series of poetry books, has received a reward for that as noted in the article .. He is also an accomplished musician, the fact alone that he is a member if the International Music Guild BMI and that all of the bands related to him that you have been trying to delete the Articles for Sin Star and Mind Pollution meet WP:MUSIC and several other guidelines.

Please allow me to point out how the 3 articles in question meet your guidelines in several ways and why it should be kept
''The Requirements Sin Star, Mind Pollution, and Davien Crow meet are listed in the following sections. I have highlighted the guidelines Wikipedia has set and my argument as to why all 3 articles should be kept. If anything as i've said perhaps Mind Pollution should be deleted or be merged under Sin Star and Davien Crow should be kept because of his accomplishments seperate to the band. This is as I said in relevance to Sin Star, Mind Pollution, and Davien Crow articles and their redirects.

WP:MUSIC

 * 1) Being on at least one international or national tour. They have been on 2 which are easily identified in the intangible Internet Archives at Wayback Machine for several sources, claims, and sites that have had information on them. Mainly the official ones.
 * 2) Having 2 Albums (does not specify full length or ep) released on a record label. They have been released on Mushroomcloud Records, Kid Atrium Music, Red Pill Music (self owned), and Independantly. Mind Pollution had to remove their materials with the exception of what was released by Mushroomcloud Records from the market in all forms because of legal trouble noted in several sources.
 * I also realize Please note that the failure to meet any of these criteria does not mean an article must be deleted; conversely, the meeting of any of these criteria does not mean that an article must be kept. These are merely rules of thumb which some editors choose to keep in mind when deciding whether or not to keep an article that is on is in WP:MUSIC but I beleive you guys are being biased and I am going to fight this for as long as I can.

In Wikipedia:Criteria_for_inclusion_of_biographies

 * 1)  "A large fan base, fan listing or "cult" following". If you compare their forums memberships and posts to a band of greater size that meets wikipedias guidelines such as Hanzel Und Gretyl or simply note the fact that promotion on such sites was given to them because the owners are fans or want to aid the band in becoming bigger and bigger some sites include  and the fact that Gidget Gein even supports them as shown in the sources you delted.... Pretty much Prooves it meets that
 * 2) "Commercial endorsements" . Davien Crow is endorsed for Sin Star for Halo Guitars. The endorsement is waiting on a custom guitar to be delivered according to fan sites can be confirmed by contacting Artist@haloguitars.com
 * 3) Published authors, editors, and photographers who have written books with an audience of 5,000 or more or in periodicals with a circulation of 5,000 or more. Davien is a published author in Book listed on the page, also has received and award for the publication.

in Wikipedia:Importance

 * 1) There is clear proof that a reasonable number of people are or were concurrently interested in the subject (eg. it is at least well-known in a community). I really want to point at "at least in a well-known community" because if you can try to argue the other notability you canot deny that point. Sin Star has a very large underground fan base, If there were not people interested in them they would be mentioned on IMDB or have attained promotion they have as explained in the Sin Star article. There are almost 1000 supporters on Myspace.com, which is more than some of the signed bands you can find on Myspace.com whom dont have an anti-spam policy like Sin Star. Davien Crow has almost 1000 supporters on myspace as well, which is approx. the same amount (only 200 difference) in former Marilyn Manson Bassists official Myspace.com page as well located  (here is his: ). I can find several pages on myspace with banners for Sin Star and or Davien Crow including  (enough with the links youn get the point) some of which are notable promoters for notable other bands SOME ARE EVEN ENTIRELY FAN THEMED OF DAVIEN CROW like . Some display his artwork as well such as this one Their forum has 10s of 1000s of articles, they band members have been invited as VIPs to Marilyn Manson shows, Gothstock, and there are several fan pages online such . The Results are hard to find because Porn results override the hits received by the fansites, often times the fan sites are on free hosts. It would also be fair to say Davien Crow is of public interest because of their Endorsement with Halo Guitars which also endorses [Brides of Desctruction] (which was [Nikki Sixx]'s band until crue started touring again) and [Hanzel Und Gretyl]. AND They are on the back cover of REDEFINE magazine's upcoming issue as can be seen in the articles. There is even a site deticated AGAINST HIM  and a community which has a shrine against him  with 6043 members at Livejournal. I don't read German but I think this site www.sinstar.de/ is a German Fan Page of them as well ? Suicide Girl Lilith Vain (also see: Suicide Girls) has them listed as well on the official site.

Wikipedia:Notability

 * 1) Opponents feel that the Wikipedia:No original research rule keeps out most of what is unencyclopedic; such as your direct observations of the dog. If the dog appears in a reputable publication, that's another story. Davien Crow and Sin Star appear in REPUTABLE publications on and offline such as REDEFINE magazine, ROCK DETECTOR, Blabbermouth.net (under the gdget gein video), [SMN). Davien is published in a reputible book series put out by Poetry.com AND has published websites [http://particleson.com,, , for examples. The fact that their former manager Nancy Marzulli was on VH1:Driven for [[Marilyn Manson]] should count as well. Managers are a member of the band's Company. EvenSuicide Girl Lilith Vain (also see: Suicide Girls) has them listed.

Wikipedia:Fame_and_importance

 * An article is important and deserving of inclusion in Wikipedia if any one of the following holds true:
 * 1) There is clear proof that a reasonable number of people are or were concurrently interested in the subject (eg. it is at least well-known in a community). If you can't tell the community of Myspace.com and Livejournal.com alone are enough to meet this criterea you are blind.
 * 2) The subject has been peer-reviewed. (see discussion relevance)
 * 3) It is an expansion (of reasonable length, not a stub) upon an established subject. The article is already long and is expandable, it should be left to be expanded on later upon by others !!!!
 * 4) Discussion on the article's talk page (using this policy as a guideline) otherwise establishes its importance. It was never given the chance, because of bias/Loyalty votes. I beleive that many of the delete votes were the equivelant of Sock Puppetts difference being that the voters contribute regularly to Wikipedia BUT DID NOT review the infomation before voting.

THE GOOGLE TEST
since some of you have had such a hard time finding sources here is Every Site OTHER THAN OFFICIAL with info in Either of the 3 AND LINKS TO GOOGLE or YAHOO RESULTS (and what was typed in to get it) YOU DID NOT CONSIDER please consider some of the sources. Remember I have not listed ANY official sites !!!


 * Searched Exact Prase "Sin Star" on Google.com
 * 1) Suicide Girls Lilith Vain
 * 2) SMN Promotions
 * 3) Sins Metal News
 * 4) SMN link
 * 5) Suicide Girl Lilith Vain (also see: Suicide Girls)
 * 6) I stopped at page 4 because there were too many Porn and Star Trek links. Let's see any band compete with Star Trek (for results.
 * On Yahoo.com
 * 1) ljseek.com
 * 2) City Morgue Magazine
 * 3) another ljseek.com link
 * 4) Sin Star Fan Site (3 results)
 * 5) Freaks United
 * 6) Music Scene Network
 * 7) Stopped at page 10 because of several official links, Star Trek, Porn, and Video Game links. Also excluded some google results so It doesn't get redundant.
 * on AOL.com
 * 1) www.myspace.com/snovonne
 * 2) All other results were the same as above, stopped at page 7 for the same reasons as above.


 * Searched Exact Prase "Davien Crow" on Google.com
 * 1) Lot23.com
 * 2) Mega Metal Online Interview
 * 3) u=232&sid=3ef07d1eda766a1bdc26241f79e26633 Gidget Gein Official Site
 * 4) MetalHordes.com
 * 5) Egelforum.com
 * 6) asp?q=progress&s=rel&p=10 Plazoo.com
 * 7) Musicians.com
 * 8) index.cgi?board=Bands&start=40 Painted Red Promotions
 * 9) MarilynManson.cc (see forums also search davien crow)
 * 10) userDetail.php?user=MorbidPoptart lot23 again
 * 11) MansonUSA.com The Heirophant Council - DC Backsatge pass (shows a connection to Marilyn Manson. Search Mansonusa.com forums for fan accounts of them attending the event as VIPs)
 * 12) Fan Site
 * 13) ROCK DETECTOR
 * 14) Amy-Lee.net (there were a few results for this site)
 * 15) Sin Star And Marilyn Manson
 * 16) Davien Crow, Gidget Gein, Marilyn Manson
 * 17) TheDilly.com (could be fake profile of him)
 * 18) SCCU Trenchwars Forums
 * 19) Anti-Davien Crow Site
 * 20) www.myspace.com/theallamericanantichrist
 * 21) www.myspace.com/8643767
 * 22) Mushroomcloud Records
 * 23) Livejournal (search davien crow on live journal as well)
 * 24) asianporno.nu forum link (result mentioned Davien Crow but is a dead link now)
 * 25) That was every relevant result for every page that showed up. I suggest you do an image search as well.
 * on Yahoo
 * 1) Nothing google didnt have
 * on AOL
 * 1) Nothing google didnt have so im going to skip other engines after this
 * 1) Nothing google didnt have so im going to skip other engines after this


 * Searched Exact Prase "Mind Pollution Band" on Google.com
 * 1) Livebands.net
 * 2) Metal-rules.com
 * 3) rockmusiclist.com
 * 4) Mushroomcloud Records
 * 5) stopped because there was too many links to various band's lyrics.

... Staff Messages Darien Starr... conducted an exclusive MMDN interview with Featured Band, former tour mate's of Marilyn Manson.. ... Marilyn Manson News ... )
 * Searched Exact Prase "Darien Starr" on Google.com
 * 1) Darien Starr's online toliet
 * 2) Darien Starr and Sin Star
 * 3) LAgoth.net
 * 4) Livejournal
 * 5) mp3.tv
 * 6) Sin Star Fan Site
 * 7) Global Music Database GMDB
 * 8) Clipbook
 * 9) Local Band Network
 * 10) SMNpromotions - Sin Star
 * 11) The Los Angeles & Orange County Goth-Industrial Network
 * 12) Megametal Online Interview Sin Star
 * 13) 1up.com
 * 14) Deadstar Assembly Forums
 * 15) nola-rivet/2005-June/000027.html Dreamlands.org
 * 16) The Muse's Muse Music Resource: Musicians/Industrial
 * 17) Rock Detector Sin Star Bio
 * 18) Orgy Official Site
 * 19) An Ad they placed inbetween Mind Pollution and Sin Star @ Musicians.com
 * 20) Bands A-Z
 * 21) Official The Elegy Machine Site Link Page
 * 22) [www.taxiee.dk/sog/122/marilyn-manson.php Taxiee.dk results Darien Starr Marilyn Manson and Sin Star links] (MMDN (Marilyn-Manson.Net)
 * 1) Sin Star and Marilyn MAnson
 * 2) Raidodead (dariens previous project)
 * 3) Amy-lee.net
 * 4) Freaks United
 * 5) MansonUSA.com Forum Post?
 * 6) Cruxshadows.com
 * OTHER SEARCH PHRASES YOU COULD TRY


 * DavienCrow, Sinstar, Alison Bordan, Nancy Marzulli, or you could go to forums such as the ones at http://gidgetgein.com, http://mansonusa.com, and other sites and do a search on their names and the various phrases.


 * POINT IS All you have to do is check the sources that were on Sin Star and Mind Pollution and the ones in this article. I mean I have even provided sources to the book he is published in, I can show you a picture of his editors choice award if needed it was online, I have EVEN LISTED HIS BMI MEMBERSHIP which is an International Musicians Guild that includes everyone from Eric Clapton to Jay-Z. Your talking about somone not being notable when they are mentioned on IMDB's Trivia Page for somone else toy guys have an article on Gidget Gein .. As pointed out above. There are sooooooo many reasons this should be kept.


 * I Think I have pointed out enough in fact. FAIR IS FAIR, IT MEETS YOUR RULES & GUIDELINES and hopefully you will reconsider the biased delete nominations that have been made because of the voters never reviewing the information beyond what the person who first nominated said (which included false information I may add, perhaps to try to get it deleted faster) or only did so at a galance. If Anything you should leave Davien Crow and then Merge Mind Pollution under Sin Star since they are after all the same band. Another solution would be to merge all 3 and another would be to only keep Sin Star & Davien Crow. Davien however has accomplishments outside of his band that are notable. G4DGET 22:01, 22 September 2005 (UTC)