Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Israeli violence against Palestinian children

Palestinian violence against ISRAELI children
See these sites:

Sadly, there are many more. IZAK 18:40, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * 1) Israeli children - Victims of Palestinian Terrorismwww.take-a-pen.org/english/Articles/Art04102003.htm
 * 2) Infants and Children –Victims of Palestinian Terrorwww.education.gov.il/children/page_8.htm
 * 3) Israel Mourns 4 Children, Mother Murdered in Terror Attackwww.israelnewsagency.com/israelpalestineterrorism127691.html
 * 4) The Slaughter of Israeli Childrenwww.jewishpost.com/jp0911/jpn0911h.htm
 * 5) Video: Palestinian murderer massacres 21 Israeli childrenwww.factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000109.html
 * 6) Terror takes enormous toll in Israelarchives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/06/23/vot.terror.one/

We have what, six articles on Palestinian violence against Israelis? Surely there's a place for this information in the appropriate year article. &#8212;No-One Jones (m) 19:01, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm not arguing, I am merely pointing out that there would be enough material to create a credible factual "mirror image" article to the one about "Israeli violence against Palestinian chidren", yet those editors concerned with Israel issues are not hell-bent on creating POV volatile articles if their only purpose is countering the POV emotionalism driving some anti-Israel editors to any length when it comes to dragging Israel's (self-defense) actions through the "Wiki-mud". What is the point of playing tit-for-tat via encyclopedia articles? IZAK 19:16, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * "Israel's (self-defense) actions". (Hahaha what a hypocrite!). Gunning down children is terrorism, not "self-defense", even when those children are not Jews. --Alberuni 20:50, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Alberuni old chap, Israelis are NOT "Gunning down children" as part of some sinister design. The Israeli army has no interest in this kind of stupidity. When a formal army like Israel's is forced to confront terrorists hiding behind the skirts of women and who put children up front as not just human shields but also as literal human (suicide/homicide) bombers then as in any war there will be innocents that get caught in the middle of the cross-fire. But there is not, and there never has been, any deliberate policy of "Gunning down children" unlike the PLO which has always deliberately chosen soft human targets to attack. IZAK 05:02, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Yes, of course, the IDF had to protect the Jews of Israel from 16-year-old Asma al-Mughayr and her 13-year-old brother Ahmad who were hanging laundry on the roof of her house in the refugee camp when IDF snipers shot them in the head. Your rationalizations for Israeli atrocities are repugnant but I'm sure you are quite used to being repugnant. --Alberuni 05:35, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * are not hell-bent on creating POV volatile articles&mdash;perhaps because such articles already exist and have existed for some time? It's easy to vilify the tats when one has already gotten in the (pardon my parallelism) tits. &#8212;No-One Jones (m) 03:35, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Mirv, this is not about "vilification" this about POV vs NPOV. The fact remains that Israel does NOT have a policy designed for "Gunning down children" as put by User:Alberuni, which is what the title of this article clearly seeks to directly imply and therefore also place "blame" on Israel, when this entire problem was initiated and continues because of Palestinian terror groups' policies of waging all-out war against an Israel that is forced to defend itself against an enemy that thinks nothing of sending its own young to blow themselves up in order to kill innocent Israelis. BTW, could you explain your own unique view of tit-for-tat as I fail to follow your (metaphoric) logic there. IZAK 05:02, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * This is quickly degenerating into yet another flame war so I'm going to bow out after a quick explanation (and I'm not going to argue the rightness or wrongness of either side): You said nobody is creating POV articles about Palestinian attacks on Israelis, and I meant to point out that many such articles already exist, so complaints about the existence of this one seemed inconsistent. That's all. Me, I think all these minutely detailed casualty lists ought to be deleted or reworked into a single general overview, but if we're going to keep one set, it's rank hypocrisy to get rid of the other. &#8212;No-One Jones (m) 08:12, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Priceless! IZAK is always good at providing material for the Zionist Revisionism page. Surely, we all understand that Israelis must resort to extreme measures to defend itself against Palestinian children, a diabolical enemy that threatens its very existence. Protecting the Jewish state requires extreme measures because the Palestinians pose a demographic threat to the Jewish character of the state, much like the Jews threatened the purity of the Aryan nation. --Alberuni 05:35, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Alberuni old boy, why do you twist what I say? Did I say that "Israelis must resort to extreme measures to defend itself against Palestinian children" ? What nonsense that surely is, as Israel is NOT "defending itself against Palestinian children" which is not what I said. I am saying that it is the leadership of the PLO and other terror organizations that are exploiting the children by (a) not controling them and keeping them safely out of trouble (ever heard of school?) and (b) it sends mixed messages when it encouraging Palestinian children to become Shahids on a Jihad against the Yahoods (ever heard of removing bias from a curriculum, if there is one?). And why are you injecting trash about Israel being like an "Aryan" nation? What baloney and what a bumb comparison. To imply that Israel is "secretly" "culling" the Palestinian children is outrageous and a very diabolical statement that shows you will stop at nothing to degrade the true victims here: The Jews of Israel, who have no desire to inflict pain on anyone, but in war will fight back, and unfortunately there will be innocent victims as the Israeli army seeks to root out the terror of the (male) adults. Shame on the Palestinian leadership for being cowards and cynics and placing kids where they should NOT be in the first place. Keep the kids home and send them to normal schools where they belong! IZAK 08:03, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

What to do with this article after VfD
I hate to interupt this, but so far it seems unlikely that the VfD will achieve consensus to delete (or anything for that matter). However, there's strong support to move and/or merge it. Would you all, being obviously interested parties, be willing to address these claims in an existing article? Suggestions? I think the place lots of people are pointing (Violence in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict) is an illogical move. Such material should be explained in higher-level coverage, not monthly death tolls. Whether this is fictitious or not, the claims are obviously real, and should be covered in a fair way. Cool Hand Luke  06:35, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Cool Hand, have you done a real tally yet? According to what you are saying then, it seems that for the sake of balance, there should also be a Palestinian violence against Israeli children article, corrrect? IZAK 08:08, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * OK. I just listed the tally. Half of 26 votes are currently for merge, move, or keep, so there will likely be no consensus and the article will survive. A strong plurality (at least 8) exists to merge this content (not keep it as a seperatly in any form). This is stronger than the plurality that wants to simply redirect it. I think merging is the best option other option anyway; we would't need to create a reciprical article for the Israeli POV, we could include both in the same article (theoretically). The hardest question, I think, is where to put these claims. Cool Hand Luke  08:47, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Merge
According to VfD votes so far, this page should be merged. Ideally, we'd like an article to cover all types of violence against civilians in an effort to keep the page NPOV and watched by editors on both sides. I initially didn't like the suggestion for Violence in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict because it didn't have any high-level information, but it has been expanded a bit by User:FT2 over the last day or so, perhaps to accommodate this material. I'd just like to establish that there's rough consensus for merging there before we do it. Thoughts? Cool Hand Luke  08:04, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Cool Hand Luke: Sorry, my HTML filter accidently removed all of your  tags. I installed a customized HTML filter (Privoxy) on my computer. I let it remove ALL , ,  and many other HTML tags from ALL web pages. I also configured my web browser to ignore JavaScript, Java, stylesheetl, , refresh and color tags. I want my Mozilla and Netscape to act like the text-mode Lynx browser. It was my HTML filter that removed them. Sorry for my mistake. Here are my settings. -- Toytoy 08:28, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)

default.filter.ini of my rivoxy s---sigU s---sigU s-bgcolor=--sigU s-color=--sigU s-style=--sigU s-target=--sigU

Please recount the tally. My vote was not counted. Delete and sorry if it was unclear from the beginning. &larr;Humus sapiens&larr;Talk 00:52, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Oh. You're right. I'm sorry. However, this still does not make a consensus, or even 66%. It does show how broad opinion doesn't support the article in current form. Cool Hand Luke  01:04, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Merge the article with these two maybe:
This article may be merged with either: or with
 * Accusations against Israel of war crimes during the Al-Aqsa Intifada see Accusations against Israel of war crimes during the Al-Aqsa Intifada
 * Palestinians killed by Israelis (at the persent also under the clouds of a VfD though. IZAK 11:28, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That first suggestion actually makes a good bit of sense. Because this vote survived without consensus, discussion on this has been moved to the talk page. Cool Hand Luke  19:52, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Maybe someone could do a search, or trawl the links, and just summarise what articles exist covering violence between Israelis and Palestinians already? I know theres a few, but a list is needed for sensible discussion. FT2 00:35, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)

FT2: To help you along, take a look at Category:Israeli-Palestinian conflict which lists many of the articles in question. IZAK 16:37, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)