Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Jerome Barber


 * The below has been removed from the main AfD discussion for obvious reasons. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 04:25, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I know Mr. Barber personally and will not vote. Almost without exception, martial arts halls of fame are for-profit enterprises, and anyone (self-)nominated and willing to pay the fee will be accepted. Note that this particular HOF has as its minimum standard for entry "must be at least a 2nd degree black belt- with a minimum of 8 years of training and a 2nd degree black belt for at least 2- years, and be 18 years of age" (for the lowest level of recognition). This is a low standard to meet. If it's this WMHOF: http://wmahf.semkhor.com/static/wmahf_main.html then I do not see Mr. Barber listed there amongst its many, many inductees. For comparison, Tim Hartman (who is a friend of mine) has been inducted into several of these halls of fame but does not list them on his bio. because of their shady reputation. Trumpeting membership in a martial arts hall of fame is, I'm afraid, something of a sign that the person lacks other major accomplishments to promote. Only those halls of fame associated with major magazines, such as Black Belt Magazine's Hall of Fame, might be considered to be different. As to other points, it is certainly true that education was very important to Prof. Presas and that he gave special praise to persons such as Dr. Barber, Ed.D., Dr. Randi Schea, M.D., and myself (a Ph.D.) who were practitioners of the art and had also achieved a high level of education. (I note that his school's web page at http://web1.ecc.edu/academic/academic_stafflist.php3 lists a M.S. as his highest degree.) Modern Arnis programs are also affiliated with Norwich U. and the U. of Penn., though I do not believe that these are for physical education credit as Mr. Barber's program is. (At many colleges, some form of Karate or Judo will be offered for physical education credit. Filipino martial arts programs are much less common in the U.S., though the situation is different in the Philippines.) Mr. Barber's community college program has not been influential, but he himself has influenced some local instructors (the ones continually added to the Modern Arnis page). Hosting the Symposium was a much appreciated effort but also, it is widely agreed, a failure. Most major players declined to show, and many who did now have, like Mr. Barber, tangential connections to Modern Arnis as they have gone their own way over the years. Finally, it is Mr. Barber's supporters who are continually modifying the entries of Mr. Hartman and of Modern Arnis (verified by matching IPs), adding in links to Mr. Hartman's entry that lead to a thread on the notorious flame-site Bullshido.com wherein Mr. Barber and others of his group, using pseudonyms, attack Mr. Hartman in a truly childish and unprofessional manner. This is all a matter of Dr. Barber's self-promotion and continued attacks on Mr. Hartman, who has achieved considerably more notability, both locally in Western NY and internationally, in the martial arts. That battle has now been brought here by Mr. Barber and his supporters. This fact may not be relevant to whether or not he is given a page here, of course, but rankles nonetheless. I have no objection to Mr. Barber having a page here; it's of no consequence to me, and it may well be merited. He has achieved the rank of third degree black belt from Prof. Presas, teaches his own program, organized the Symposium, is a full Professor at a community college, and has his own small martial arts organization. He is a locally known martial artist amongst Filipino martial arts practitioners and Kenpoists in the Western NY area. My principal point is that the World Martial Arts Hall of Fame membership is not an argument in favor of adding a martial artist. --JJL 15:26, 20 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I note that the only people who seem to have a problem with this pages existence are associated with ONE instructor. I have yet to see anybody associated with any other Datu complain. And if introducing the art to new people every semester of the year via his college program is not influential I think we need to agree on terms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Renegade68 (talk • contribs)


 * JLL wrote: I know Mr. Barber personally and will not vote. Almost without exception, martial arts halls of fame are for-profit enterprises, and anyone (self-)nominated and willing to pay the fee will be accepted. Note that this particular HOF has as its minimum standard for entry "must be at least a 2nd degree black belt- with a minimum of 8 years of training and a 2nd degree black belt for at least 2- years, and be 18 years of age" (for the lowest level of recognition). This is a low standard to meet. If it's this WMHOF: http://wmahf.semkhor.com/static/wmahf_main.html then I do not see Mr. Barber listed there amongst its many, many inductees. 
 * Hello Jeff, let’s take this stuff in small batches.  No matter how an event is pulled together it has to be paid for by someone.  I didn’t make the rules.  But what you have cited is the lowest level of achievement required for the lower level award such as Instructor of the Year.  The Master and Grand Master quialifications are quite a bit higher.  Also be advised that  over the years, I have turned down all other such honors with the exception of the Sokeship Council, because I did not see them as necessary to my work.  I accepted the Sokeship award because of the three people who nominated me and a number of the people already inducted whom I respect such as Wally Jay, Jeff Speakman, Gary Dill, Frank Sanchez, Neil Hummerstone, Abon Baet, Bobby Taboada, Ernesto Presas and Adriano Emperado.  Being nominated to join that group and numerous others that I have not named was indeed an honor for me.
 * I will check with them after the holidays about the listing, however, please note that I do have the signed, dated and sealed certificate from Dr. Moore. Also note that I presented a full resume presentation, not a shorten and selected formatted presentation.  I have NEVER made my HofF a prominent feature of my martial arts ID!  You are are the one making all of the noise about it, not me!
 * For comparison, Tim Hartman (who is a friend of mine) has been inducted into several of these halls of fame but does not list them on his bio. because of their shady reputation.
 * Jeff, I do not compare myself to your friend nor do I follow his examples. In fact I see that behavior as hypocritical.  He is willing to pay for the expenses, accept the award and then “hide”!  If he does not want to list these awards on his bio/resume, why bother accepting them in the first place?  My ethical standard is, ‘If you can’t proudly be a part of the organization, DON”T JOIN IT!
 * Trumpeting membership in a martial arts hall of fame is, I'm afraid, something of a sign that the person lacks other major accomplishments to promote. Only those halls of fame associated with major magazines, such as Black Belt Magazine's Hall of Fame, might be considered to be different.
 * That is an opinion that you are entitled to and I will not dispute you over it; however, you need to go back and point out where I have “trumpeted” my membership or used it as a criteria for establishing my credibility in the martial arts. You have grossly and deliberately overstated your case for your own self-serving purposes.  As for the “major magazines”, they have their own reasons for their HofF selections, including advertising promotions which in turn are related to income/money.  The magazines are also for profit ventures the last time I checked.
 * As to other points, it is certainly true that education was very important to Prof. Presas and that he gave special praise to persons such as Dr. Barber, Ed.D., Dr. Randi Schea, M.D., and myself (a Ph.D.) who were practitioners of the art and had also achieved a high level of education. (I note that his school's web page at http://web1.ecc.edu/academic/academic_stafflist.php3 lists a M.S. as his highest degree.) 
 * You are correct Jeff. I never updated my college catalogue entry because it was not very important to me.  Please allow me to suggest that you contact SUNY Buffalo and their School of Education.  They will verify that I graduated in 1985 with an Ed.D. and if you are interested my dissertation topic was “The Sociological Significance of Counrty Blues Lyrics, 1890 – 1942”.
 * Modern Arnis programs are also affiliated with Norwich U. and the U. of Penn., though I do not believe that these are for physical education credit as Mr. Barber's program is. 
 * Correct again, and your point would be?
 * (At many colleges, some form of Karate or Judo will be offered for physical education credit. Filipino martial arts programs are much less common in the U.S., though the situation is different in the Philippines.) 
 * Come on, Jeff, The matter under discussion is Modern Arnis AND credit bearing courses in college in the USA. Mine is the only one!  All of your other points are without merit  and meaningless.
 * Mr. Barber's community college program has not been influential, but he himself has influenced some local instructors (the ones continually added to the Modern Arnis page). Hosting the Symposium was a much appreciated effort but also, it is widely agreed, a failure. Most major players declined to show, and many who did now have, like Mr. Barber, tangential connections to Modern Arnis as they have gone their own way over the years. 
 * Wishful thinking, Jeff; you have assigned the designations not me. The fact that some 400-500 people have taken Modern Arnis instruction at ECC  is quite significant and simply because half of them did not open martial arts academies does not mean that the program has not been influential.  As a teacher, the influence that I have on lives goes well beyond the immediate years of study in some cases.
 * Finally, it is Mr. Barber's supporters who are continually modifying the entries of Mr. Hartman and of Modern Arnis (verified by matching IPs), adding in links to Mr. Hartman's entry that lead to a thread on the notorious flame-site Bullshido.com wherein Mr. Barber and others of his group, using pseudonyms, attack Mr. Hartman in a truly childish and unprofessional manner. This is all a matter of Dr. Barber's self-promotion and continued attacks on Mr. Hartman, who has achieved considerably more notability, both locally in Western NY and internationally, in the martial arts. That battle has now been brought here by Mr. Barber and his supporters. This fact may not be relevant to whether or not he is given a page here, of course, but rankles nonetheless. I have no objection to Mr. Barber having a page here; it's of no consequence to me, and it may well be merited. 
 * Let me see if I understand this correctly. You as a friend of the wmaa founder have not been influenced by the statements of that person and you are being totally objective and non-partisan?  You are making the designation of childish.  Please allow me to note that there are some valid questions regarding your friend’s claims.  For instance, when, where and how did he become an International Stick Fighting Champion?  Why was he the only Modern Arnis person claiming to have the title of Punong Guro bestowed on him by the late Professor Presas?  Adding to the credibility question is the meaning of punong guro as stated by your friend – Teacher of Teachers.  That is a huge crock of smelly stuff, Jeff.  The term punog guro translates as Senior Teacher.  In the Philippines it designates someone as either a Grand Master or heir apparent to the title within an organization.  Why shouldn’t people question the usage as given by the wmaa leader and his followers?  The term ‘teacher of teachers’ is correctly translated from the tagalong language as follows ‘guro ng mga guro’.  I seriously doubt that the late Professor would have made the teacher of teacher mistake in translation.
 * He has achieved the rank of third degree black belt from Prof. Presas, teaches his own program, organized the Symposium, is a full Professor at a community college, and has his own small martial arts organization. He is a locally known martial artist amongst Filipino martial arts practitioners and Kenpoists in the Western NY area. My principal point is that the World Martial Arts Hall of Fame membership is not an argument in favor of adding a martial artist.
 * Let me repeat my principal point, I never made the argument that the HofF was a significant argument for inclusion in anything! It is the totality of resume AND the uniqueness of my position as the founder/developer and teacher of the ONLY college based Modern Arnis program for academic credit.  Additionally, the program is approved in writing by the founder and GM of Modern Arnis, Professor Presas, in 1989!
 * One of the functions of an encyclopedia entry is to note a major and/or unique contribution in a particular field of endeavor. I believe that I qualify in that regard.  Your opinion to the contrary is duly noted, but focuses on "political" tomfoolery within the art
 * and not quality of my achievements in establishing a long running program.
 * BTW, if you doubt the validity of my skills in Modern Arnis, you are more than welcome to join me in a side by side seminar where we can demonstrate our respective skills and knowledge in the art itself. You have been quite vocal in your belittling of my contributions to Modern Arnis while very forcefully trumpting the virtues of your friend, the world traveler.  I for one would love to see you put some action behind those brave words.  We can do it in Buffalo, the very next time you are planning to come to town.
 * And in terms of closing this response, let me point out that being a world traveler is your friend’s ambition and goal. I have done exactly what I wanted to do, establish a college credit program at Erie Community College.  I love sailing in the summer, so two seminars or camps between June 1 and September 1, is all I want to do.  3-6 seminars or camps in the Fall and Spring are perfect and since I make my living at ECC as a full time teacher, traveling the world is not a viable option for me.  You and your friend can set any sort of means test that you wish, but in the end it is really all about SKILL in the Art.
 * I am willing to srtep up and show for all to see that I can and do teach a very high level
 * Skill-based art that blends Kenpo and Arnis/Escrima. My program format ws known to Professor, he tested me at it and from my own curriculum over a 4.5 hour period in 1989 before approving the ECC program.  Furthermore he tested me numerous times in Modern Arnis beginning in 1982, when I was studying under Sifu Don Zanghi, who taught me the blended Kenpo-Arnis method.  I did earn a 3rd degree black belt under professor himself, didn’t I?
 * So, you can keep on making all of these “political” arguments, but the real bottom line question is still, are you ready to go out on the floor and show us that your skills in the art are strong enough to support your contentions that I do not know what I am doing in Modern Arnis?
 * Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


 * You're projecting arguments onto me that I have not made. I don't think this is the proper place to debate them, however, so I will merely suggest that a close re-reading of my post is in order. I will only address one point: I am not opposed to you having a page. I took no position on that. I don't know Wikipedia's rules and guidelines for making such a decision. But previous discussion, earlier on this page and before you posted, made much of the hall of fame issue. Those who are not martial artists may not realize that membership in most of these, including the World Head of Family Sokeship Council, is not a recommendation of any sort for a martial artist. I felt it would be helpful to address that point. I then addressed some other issues. --JJL 21:58, 21 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Jeff,
 * Proper preparation prevents piss poor performance.
 * You're projecting arguments onto me that I have not made. I don't think this is the proper place to debate them, however, so I will merely suggest that a close re-reading of my post is in order. I will only address one point: I am not opposed to you having a page. I took no position on that. I don't know Wikipedia's rules and guidelines for making such a decision. But previous discussion, earlier on this page and before you posted, made much of the hall of fame issue. Those who are not martial artists may not realize that membership in most of these, including the World Head of Family Sokeship Council, is not a recommendation of any sort for a martial artist. I felt it would be helpful to address that point. I then addressed some other issues.
 * How could I be confusing you with anyone else when I copied word for word your own statement as posted? I never altered or deleted any words!  I replied to you and only YOU!  There is no need for me to re-read your statement, I’ve already answered it and you have failed to answer any of the questions that I asked of you.
 * These hasn't been any "projections", Jeff.
 * Let’s try this again. When and where did your friend and wmaa leader, Tim Hartman become an international stick fighting champion?  Why does the Tim Hartman and the wmaa membership insist that the term “punong guro” means “teacher of teachers” when everyone else in the FMA world understands the term to mean “Senior Teacher”?  Are you going to accept my invitation to participate in a joint seminar?  Yes or NO?
 * Plus an additional question, when did it become both appropriate and reasonable for a group of lower ranked people to promote a higher ranked person? Specificly how can you justify promoting your friend and wmaa leader from 6th to 7th and again from 7th to 9th degree black belt when everyone on your advisory board was ranked at 5th degree or less?
 * It is the failure of yourself, Tim Hartman and others associated with the wmaa to answer questions such as those above that has precipitated a flurry of posts and comments from a number of people around the martial arts world. Those people who you refered to as my students are grown men in their 30’s and 40’s.  They have long ago ceased to be under my direct influence.  They are college educated and have the ability to read, think and question without my help or suggestions.  Deal with them honestly and respectfully and they will respond in kind.
 * As for the Sokeship Council matter, that is your opinion. I happen to disagree with you.  I do not push/trumpet my membership in the Council.  I acknowledge it when and where I believe it to be appropriate.  Putting it on a resume is one example of proper usage in my opinion, however I have never forgotten that the final test remains the same, with or without mentioned my sokeship membership – can I show the art at a high skill level?  I adhere to the belief that in martial arts “Skill is Rank”.
 * I’ll be gone for the next 5 days, so I will await your answers to my questions posed above. That’s all that I am really interested in hearing from you, the answers to my questions, then new and more meaningful dialogue can happen.
 * Jerome Barber, Ed.D.