Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Jose Raymond (2nd nomination)

Jose Raymond is a professional IFBB bodybuilder, his lifetime athletic achievements span the course of 26 years.

Wikipedia rules suggest "The guidelines on this page are intended to reflect the fact that sports figures are likely to meet Wikipedia's basic standards of inclusion if they have, for example, participated in a major international amateur or professional competition at the highest level (such as the Olympics).

Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(sports)#Basic_criteria

Jose Raymond has participated in the Olympia, also known as Mr. Olympia, which was established under the IFBB in the mid 1960's. As well as the Arnold Classic.

Reference: (1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Olympia (2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_Sports_Festival

Please note that Flex and Muscular Development are not only online news sources but also print magazines in circulation globally.

I will continue to update sources. I have recently added references from IFBB (governing sports association) and also Olympia.
 * Hi you also need to read the FAQ on that page notably this


 * Q1: How is this guideline related to the general notability guideline?[hide]


 * A1: The topic-specific notability guidelines described on this page do not replace the general notability guideline. They are intended only to stop an article from being quickly deleted when there is very strong reason to believe that significant, independent, non-routine, non-promotional secondary coverage from reliable sources are available, given sufficient time to locate them.[1][2][3][4] Wikipedia's standard for including an article about a given person is not based on whether or not he/she has attained certain achievements, but on whether or not the person has received appropriate coverage in reliable sources, in accordance with the general notability guideline. Also refer to Wikipedia's basic guidance on the notability of people for additional information on evaluating notability.


 * What is lacking here is in-depth secondary coverage in reliable sources that are independent from the subject. The article has been on wikipedia since July 2017 and the necessary sources have not been added. Domdeparis (talk) 16:52, 22 January 2018 (UTC)


 * p.s. please remember to sign your edits on talk pages.
 * p.p.s I see that you sent me an email but as it concerns this subject please use the relevent talk page to discuss this subject. Domdeparis (talk) 16:54, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Hi, would kindly copy/paste my last email to you, to this page.
 * I only use emails on wikipedia for personal or cofidential matters and I never copy text from a private email to public pages. If there is something you wish to say on this page please make the edit yourself as I never edit on behalf of other users. I hope you understand. And please sign your edits using the buttons or by typing 4 tildes like this  ~  Domdeparis (talk) 17:27, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Hi, this is a copy of the email I sent you.

OK, I will work on adding more sources to further valid the initial sources and the achievements of Jose Raymond.

Please help me understand why Jose Raymond was marked for deletion. As a comparison here are just a few examples of other bodybuilders currently listed on Wikipedia with references:

1.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Heath 2.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flex_Lewis 3.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Palumbo 4.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Cutler_(bodybuilder)

There are hundreds more. Shane McKinney (talk) 17:31, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Please read WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. It is not because other articles are insufficently sourced that this article gets a free pass. Notability on wikipedia does not work like that. Each article has to meet the notability requirements. Domdeparis (talk) 17:37, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Hi, This is not about WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, but rather how ALL stuff actually currently does exist in this particular sub-genre. I was using other stuff (namely those listed above) as a reference requirements check, I understand now I need to cite a second source. I can do that. I have one question, as clearly you understand the rules better - Can secondary coverage be a smaller web publication, or a globally distributed magazine and also a web publication (FLEX, M&D) when coupled with a reference from the governing body itself such as the IFBB, or Olympia, etc?

IF NOT, then I'm inclined to believe that ALL the "Other Stuff" that exists is incorrect and improperly cited. Worse is that, if these are the guidelines, then there are likely no notable professional bodybuilders for inclusion in Wikipedia. This is due to the fact that unfortunately, as a sub genre, professional bodybuilding receives far less main stream media coverage than NFL, NBA, etc, in fact there is rarely any media coverage ever, and these types of publications are what the industry must rely on. Shane McKinney (talk) 18:05, 22 January 2018 (UTC)