Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Mark Sanders (2nd nomination)

Based on an interpretation of WP:BIO, I believe that the bio on Mark Sanders is valid and should not be deleted as it qualifies under 2 sections of the "People still alive" section. section 1:Published authors, editors, and photographers who have written books with an audience of 5,000 or more or in periodicals with a circulation of 5,000 or more section 2:Recording musicians who have sold more than 5,000 albums, CDs, or similar recordings

Nearly none of the composers present on the Tracker page have sold more than 5,000 albums (and in fact most have never published a single album given the nature of what they do), however many of the listees have had audiences of at least 5,000. The page on Mark Sanders is thus germane to the spirit of the other listees and the format as a biography is similar to those with bios such as Bogdan Raczynski, Hunz, Alexander Brandon, Venetian Snares, Purple Motion, Lagoona, Andrew Sega, Bjørn Lynne, Peter Hajba etc.

Additionally, according to the "Alternative tests" section of the same WP:BIO, most of the tests are passable
 * The professor test -- The number of partial releases in Partial List of Releases. pass
 * Verifiability -- Many of his releases have been published on hornet/demoscene related disks. pass
 * Expandability -- It already is more than a stub, pass
 * Autobiography -- I used to know the subject personally and produced parts of the article, pass
 * Google Test -- the partial list of external links were all found from cursory searches on Google. More is easily obtainable, search for most of the song titles and should be able to find them pass

That's 5 out of 7...more than many other bios I've seen on wikipedia and especially the tracker section.

As for notability, I think the article is reasonably unbiased and the notability is self explanatory. Sanders' work easily compares to any of the others on the list with few exceptions (maybe Dr. Awesome, Lizardking and C.C.Catch) and more notable than most on the list (Heatbeat, Acumen, elmobo (name borrowed from elblanco FYI), Dune, Warder, Elwood, Lagoona, Awesome, Venetian Snares, Siren, Rapture, Ivory, Anders Åkerheden, Zola (btw NOT the most famouse female tracker by far try Skie or at least Ms. Saigon), Solo, Virt, LittleElk, Terminal11, Widgetfreak, Bogdan Raczynski etc.) I mean common, who ARE these people? I've participated closely in the scene for more than a decade and never even heard of most of these people even once. So for notability Sanders is a clear pass which is why I even went through the trouble of making a bio page for him. Since he is retired from the scene his info is getting a bit more difficult to find.

Appears to be a clear non-delete case
While I am no expert on scene music per se having come in rather late. I have heard and seen some demos and music through old college friends who did create things for it. El Blanco's music was always present on my friends' computers as they did participate in the scene. There was also a DJ (DJ-Saiko) who liked to spin some of his work. He certainly seems notable and has numerous references in the old Demonews, Traxweekly and Staticline scene zines. Coplan used to cite his work specifically as his favorite. Not "one of" but "the". Also most of the other bios listed on the tracker page don't seem to indicate any sort of notability whatsoever when there are bios and most of the people on the list don't even have a stub. I can't say if El Blanco is famous or not, but in my personal experience he was certainly played almost as much as Necros. I can't see a reason to delete his page and leave up some of the others. The way I see it, keep his page with the others, or delete his and the others since they don't stand out anymore than his. Lonejack 16:51, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Don't delete
This is a vanity page? You mean like all the other people listed on tracker? Hell, I've seen worse biographies on the list of programmers at Programmer. It's remarkable that there are hundreds of coders listed and only a handful of composers? I thought trackers and coders were two out of three parts of the demoscene? Actually a better comparison would be List of composers. Lesse, under List of Indonesian Composers is one bio for I Nyoman Windha. What is he famous for? He writes gamalan music in 3/4 time. Yay. By the dubious assertions here against Sanders, he also shouldn't be listed. But he is. And he hasn't been deleted since the last change in April. Way I see it, Sanders is a composer with an interesting record and major contributions to his particular sub-genre of electronic music. At least as interesting and "notable" as I Nyoman Windha. 67.109.180.226 23:17, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Moved discussion
(Moved from Articles for deletion/Mark Sanders (2nd nomination))

Nearly none of the composers present on the Tracker page have sold more than 5,000 albums (and in fact most have never published a single album given the nature of what they do), however many of the listees have had audiences of at least 5,000. The page on Mark Sanders is thus germane to the spirit of the other listees and the format as a biography is similar to those with bios such as Bogdan Raczynski, Hunz, Alexander Brandon, Venetian Snares, Purple Motion, Lagoona, Andrew Sega, Bjørn Lynne, Peter Hajba etc.

Additionally, according to the "Alternative tests" section of the same WP:BIO, most of the tests are passable
 * The professor test -- The number of partial releases in Partial List of Releases. pass
 * Verifiability -- Many of his releases have been published on hornet/demoscene related disks. pass
 * Expandability -- It already is more than a stub, pass
 * Autobiography -- I used to know the subject personally and produced parts of the article, pass
 * Google Test -- the partial list of external links were all found from cursory searches on Google. More is easily obtainable, search for most of the song titles and should be able to find them pass

That's 5 out of 7...more than many other bios I've seen on wikipedia and especially the tracker section.

As for notability, I think the article is reasonably unbiased and the notability is self explanatory. Sanders' work easily compares to any of the others on the list with few exceptions (maybe Dr. Awesome, Lizardking and C.C.Catch) and more notable than most on the list (Heatbeat, Acumen, elmobo (name borrowed from elblanco FYI), Dune, Warder, Elwood, Lagoona, Awesome, Venetian Snares, Siren, Rapture, Ivory, Anders Åkerheden, Zola (btw NOT the most famouse female tracker by far try Skie or at least Ms. Saigon), Solo, LittleElk, Terminal11, Widgetfreak, Bogdan Raczynski etc.) I mean come on!, who ARE these people? I've participated closely in the scene for more than a decade and never even heard of most of these people even once. So for notability Sanders is a clear pass which is why I even went through the trouble of making a bio page for him. Since he is retired from the scene his info is getting a bit more difficult to find.

Rebuttal

 * If he were notable, his info would not get "a bit more difficult to find". I also don't believe you've "participated closely in the scene", if you are aren't aware of Heatbeat, elmobo (Moby, the French MOD musician, btw - NOT borrowed from elblanco), Dune, Elwood, Siren, and Virt's notability.  Try looking them all up on www.scenemusic.net .  Your best argument would be that he is on the AMP site  with a few downloads.  Also, read my response on Talk:Mark_Sanders.  I'm going to add a Delete vote (along with redirects per Jeffrey O. Gustafson) as vanity. --Vossanova 17:35, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Rebuttal
That's a logical fallacy, archives age, some go offline etc. etc. When the Bangles were popular, you couldn't walk into a music store and not get run over with some sort of advertisement for them. Now most people under 25 don't even know who they were. Yet they are notable.

Second falacy, presence on Nectarine is hardly notability. For example, Aahz is listed there only on a coop with Genosha (both who I knew) yet Aahz ran one of the first major internet shoutcast servers...ever (helping pioneer internet radio) Loud Factory was THE major global release point for sceners writing hard electronica, he participated in numerous parties etc. etc. etc. in other words probably one of the most notable trackers ever. However, somebody named "A3an" is listed solo and with twice as many releases. Yet I've never seen or heard of this person and I'd bet that you hadn't. If Nectarine qualifies as a "cannon" of trackers then doesn't AMP? In fact, probably the closest the scene has to cannon is hornet. Your logic is a bit skewed. I mean, good for Christophe (the founder btw) and all for making a dedicated scene radio station but he doesn't hold the keys to unlock the hidden mysteries of notability.

I mean come on! The editor of Staticline, Coplan, says "Once again, El Blanco has to be one of my favorite trackers." in SL#29 (c. 2000). If that's not an endorsement for notability I surely don't know what the fuck is.

Having attended numerous parties both big and small (traveled to 3 different countries across 11 time zones for that fyi) and personally know or have known (or at the very least met) most of the people on the "well known tracker" list and been a judge for quite a few compos I'd say that Sanders belongs easily on that list which is why I wrote his bio.

on a personal note
Vossanova, Since you doubt my scene pedigree and have decided to make this personal The Solid Energy Crew (later Lagoona) - ??? why is Lagoona on this list? Because they made a record? Hell I've released a record and Sanders may even have at some point. Doesn't make them notable trackers.
 * Kenny Chou - totally deserves to be on the list, met and knew via #trax
 * Heatbeat - no idea who this is
 * Lizardking - as big an influence on demo style music as is possible totally deserves to be on
 * Skaven - knew him via #trax, get an early copy of ST2 and ST3 from him good chap not as well known for his graphician skills
 * Acumen - no idea who this is
 * Jogeir Liljedahl - not particularly famous amongst those who started in the scene post Soundblaster but his amiga work spawned alot of the realistic style of music used in later tracks notable I suppose for that but does not qual according to WP:BIO
 * Bjorn Lynn (dr. awesome) - I think if anybody should be on the list it is him
 * moby - knew him actually knew 3 mobys at one point (DID borrow his name from elblanco btw as detailed in a #trax conversation c. 1998-99 it may be possible to find a log someplace)
 * Dune met (good music, as notable as Andy Sega? hardly)
 * Vesa Norilo (Warder) - got nothin on him
 * Elwood is famous for coming out of nowhere around 96 or 97 and released a bunch of songs, won some contests and then when everybody realized all his songs were basically the same disapeared (never met him),
 * Andrew Sega (Necros or The Alpha Conspiracy) - he has similar credentials to Bjorn. Met him, worked for a time with Kiwidog (founder of Sandes' first group Terraformer) at 3d realms in TX. A bit snobbish at times but...doesn't he deserve to be?
 * Matthew Simmonds (4-MAT) - old skool amiga work. He's kinda like Jogeir in the fact that he was well known in the Amiga scene but 99% of the PC sceners have no clue.
 * Jonne Valtonen (Purple Motion) - the real music behind FC.
 * Victor Vergara (Awesome) - know him currently. From Spain, really nice chap. Working on that new tracker whatever it's called. Goes by Awez00m or some such now.
 * Venetian Snares (is said to compose much of his work using trackers such as Octamed) - a recording artists who is "said" to work with trackers. Hardly a "notable tracker".
 * Siren I knew personally (even attended some parties with him) but not a major player in the scene by any stretch. I suppose he could be included on the list due to his work on Jazz Jackrabbit and Unreal (>5,000 published copies?)
 * Fabian del Priore (Rapture) - ???
 * Yakov Oskanov (Ivory) - ???
 * Anders Åkerheden - ??? I mean, he doesn't even have a proper handle. Not since Ryan Cramer and Renaissance could anybody get away with that nonsense
 * Hans Van Vliet (Hunz) - knew him. Another nice chap. Great vocals on his work borderline inclusion.
 * Zola - come on!!!! according to her disamb page "probably the most important female tracker in the former scene." #1 no idea who she is #2 Ms. Saigon, Saxy and Skie were the original famous female trackers.
 * Tad Rees (Solo) - ???
 * Jacob Kaufman (Virt) - no idea who virt is yet his claim to fame seems to be having 130+ releases on Nectarine? Even Sanders has more releases then that on his partial list!
 * Per Henrik Syverud (LittleElk) - seriously who the hell are these people? Did you edit this list Vossanova and then randomly pull names off of Nectarine?
 * Mike Castaneda (Terminal11) - got nothin on him but he seems new...perhaps that is his notable factor? newness?
 * Andy Yamane (WidgetPhreak) - composes using two gameboys....yes a notable tracker
 * Bogdan Raczynski - so notable that it is not even confirmed what tracker this supposed notable tracker uses. Again a recording artist with heresay as evidence of notability.

BTW there is a whole list of trackers better known than half this list who aren't on (Mellow-D, Aahz, Darkwolf, Darkhalo, etc. etc. etc.) this list. I was going to start work on their bios but since hours of research and a post on Sanders has netted this much bullshit I'm having second thoughts. It is obvious to me that you are not concerned with the quality and completeness of this part of wikipedia and instead are pushing your own agenda. I wouldn't be surprised to find out if the unknowns on the list were friends of yours since they are obviously not well known or notable trackers (hell there are spankingly few completed bios on the tracker page to indicate any sort of notability). I'd recommend you spend more time on that page then messing up decent wikipedia entries. Before you speak again about who participated in the scene and at what level, why don't you go check your own participation (btw. read your post on Talk:Mark_Sanders, you didn't even know who c.c.catch was nor what the MCs were, clearly a sign of somebody not in touch with any major part of the scene). Additionally, my music scene pedigree is not what is in question here nor is yours...so you can probably just step off. What is up is the suitability of inclusion of a noteworthy tracker who matches the characteristics of at least any of the completed bios on the tracker page as well as matches multiple requirements of WP:BIO.