Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/The Lee Nysted Experience

Comment

With all due respect to Tony Fox, and the concept of "weak keep" in re: The Orchard

To quote Wikipedia: "...A musician or ensemble (note that this includes a band, singer, rapper, orchestra, hip hop crew, DJ, musical theatre group, etc.) is notable if it meets any one of the following criteria: o This criterion includes published works in all forms,..."
 * It has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent from the musician/ensemble itself and reliable.1

Ergo, The criteria doesn't include an asterisk saying Lee must be signed to SONY.
 * 1) .) There are 15,000 (Google:Lee Nysted) such articles out there in Google about Lee Nysted and "The Lee Nysted Experience."
 * 2) .) The rules and guidelines are quite clear. I believe the (who do we distribute) artist roster says enough about the issue at hand. "COLD PLAY" (The band) is on THE ORCHARD. Does Cold Play have a Wikipedia site? They (The Orchard) is/are the 5th largest label in the free world. To say they are not legitimate is like saying G.E. is not a corporation because they own 3000 companies. (Please look at the "digital partners."  e.g., Starbucks, iTunes, Rhapsody, +14,000 more.)
 * 3) .) The rules and guidelines and criteria for inclusion are very clear. There is no "weak" keep because it is one of the "any one" of the following. "Any One" is quite black and white. There are several, not just one.

Thank you for your time and patience, Lee Nysted
 * Yes, Orchard has a large list of bands they DISTRIBUTE. I personally think of a record LABEL as something that signs bands, works with them on record production, markets and distributes their work through record stores, etc. - like so. Orchard distributes things for other labels and indie artists. If people can pay them for distributing their stuff (and that's my interpretation, nobody else's), I don't know if I can call them a label in the vein of WP:MUSIC. Now. "Lee Nysted" with the quotes comes up with 5000 or so Google hits. that's not bad. Looking through the top 50, I don't see much in the way of non-trivial independent reliable sources; I do see a lot of sites where information about musicians can be submitted, and a lot of copies of a press release. Can you point towards some non-trivial media coverage for us to peruse? My weak keep indicates that I feel your work with other established artists is just above the line under WP:MUSIC. Show me some media coverage, and I'm happy to reconsider. Tony Fox (arf!) 23:27, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Lee is not self published and he did not write any of the articles. I did.Huntress829 15:35, 22 January 2007 (UTC) Argument fails instanter. C.H.Huntress829 14:47, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

COMMENT: To dispel the rant of "phony Grammy nominations" here is a link to the 3rd tier for 1 of 3 Grammy awards I was nominated for: Song #264   Lee Nysted Song of the year#264http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lee_Nysted 04:23, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment to both "C.H" and Mr Nysted, please re-read the text added by User:Dhartung as it cuts through all the sentimentality and gets straight to the point. Verifiability of musical notability by reliable sources is the whole point.  Comply with that and the article will stay.  The Rambling Man 16:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, C.H. Huntress829 04:36, 21 January 2007 (UTC)Huntress829 05:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I have now posted over 12 verifiable and relable sources offered as proof of notability. "Clear Channel" and I will continue to post additional sources over the next several days. If what Rambling Man says is true, there should be no doubt as to whether or not the article stays, it should stay. In what form, I will leave to the administrator(s.)

COMMENT:  NEW SITES UP FOR ALL TO SEE. As the original author of this article, and the subject of numerous false claims about my relationship to Lee Nysted and his company, I have asked CLEAR CHANNEL and NYSTED MUSIC to put up dozens of verifiable and reliable sources of "notability," for all to see. Further, I have asked that they add names and links for people that do not want to go to the net. Thank you for being objective in your search for the truth about a very fine artist. I am a fan of Lee's for many years. C.H. 1-20-07 Huntress829 02:19, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

There is no justification for the statement about "self published." See below. Not one of the two articles up for deletion was published by me, my family, or any employees of Nysted Music, LLC. My label, THE ORCHARD, and over 15,000 articles pertaining to the said band, speak for themselves. The idea that this "delete vote" stems from MySpace, is very troubling to me. I do not frequent MySpace, however, my employees do, and have had several threats from that site, about this very issue. Lee Nysted,  signed on 1-19-07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lee Nysted (talk • contribs) 23:19, 19 January 2007 (UTC).
 * Comment:

Attn. Administrators:

I authored the original article "The Lee Nysted Experience"

I am no relation to Mr. Nysted and I do not work for him. I am not getting paid to do an article about him.

"Clear channel" intervened on Lee's behalf because, for whatever reason, someone is not following the guidelines and rules of Wikipedia, and they continue in their attempts to delete a legitimate musician, singer, songwriter, band, ensemble, etc.

I have no problem with the changes that Stephen Dewart did to this article. He seems reasonable.

The verification is, in fact, accurate as are the sources. (Add THE ORCHARD as a Wikipedia source.)

Repeat: Please note that THE ORCHARD, Lee's label, has a page here, in Wikipedia. (Use that as a verified reference, please.)

My sincere hope is this: Wikipedia cannot be manipulated by some "popularity contest" stemming from an avalanche of votes against inclusion. Can anyone vote? Help ! Administrators, and people in charge???

Thank you,

C. Hunter Huntress829 05:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment: I think everyone can read the guidelines and see that your "only possible criterion" is simply not true. Please use Google and Google Lee Nysted.

If out of all the 17,000 items, you want Clear Channel to post a few of them here, that can be arranged, but probably isn't very wise. If all you want is "any one" item, you have plenty of choices. "Studio and touring drummers" is the correct answer. Walker is touring right now with Morrisey. See Wikipedia article. Todd Sucherman is touring with STYX.

Both drummers are touring drummers, however the guidelines and criteria do not say that if someone is noteworthy and they break a leg, they do not qualify. Not to be overly dramatic, but who is kidding who here? LOL.

Go by the rules or make up new rules? Hardly seems like this would be an end all fact source, if you and I could make up rules as we go along. Further, there is no question as to the "noteworthy" part, is there?

Lee will tour, and all players have expressed a desire to do same. In the bio addendum to the article, we will go into that. C. Hunter


 * For the record, "Lee Nysted Experience" with the quotes gets 55 Google hits. Lee Nysted, with no quotes - which means you get hits for 'Lee', 'Nysted' and 'Lee Nysted' - gets 17,000. As I said before, the editors who are debating here would like to see some of the reliable sources that are available out of the Google hits to help determine notability. Tony Fox (arf!) 02:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Google is not a reliable source, per Mr. Dhartung.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lee_Nysted 15:15, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment Re: citicat and Tony Fox

Both of you are trying to write new rules for Wikipedia; it is not seemly.

1.) The original article that was the target of vandals was under Lee Nysted. That name is now frozen, here. He is the artist; leader of the ensemble. All artists participate in the ensemble. Obviously the preference would be to have the article under Lee Nysted. However, the ensemble fits and should be the ultimate recepticle site of the Lee Nysted name on this encyclopedia. Lee Nysted gets Google adwords directed from all sources containing the name Nysted. They all go to Lee Nysted.

2.) To delete because of a one time "news archive" is not valid because of the "all types" part of the criteria as stated over and over above.

The criteria clearly states "all types" of published works" of media, including digital media. There are posted reviews on iTunes, Amazon, Rhapsody, e-music, Napster, and on thousands of sites. Sorry citicat, but google says it all.

If this site is looking for unbiased reviews, Clear will provide hundreds. Radio is also broadcasting. The point is, to meet the criteria additional excercises are not even necessary. Wikipedia is supposed to give users an information resource. Reliable and quick.

My question is: Could anyone open a Wiki account and speak about this issue? Would the opinions matter?

Who is the decision making body?

This is a great test for us.

Thank you...C. Hunter.Huntress829 05:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

C. Hunter 1-19-07


 * Uh... beg pardon? I'm looking directly at WP:MUSIC. I (who I should again note opined weak KEEP back there someplace) still haven't seen a reliable source whatsoever about the artist, which I've asked for three times now. There's nothing in my comments that's trying to rewrite guidelines, nor Citicat's. As to your question about new users, yes, anyone can comment on an AfD discussion, but most of the time the opinions of established users are taken into consideration to a greater degree than those who may have registered specifically to comment on that particular topic. Tony Fox (arf!) 05:00, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Tony, forgive me for being short with you, or anyone here. Bless you for taking your time to do this; please do not think that your question is being ignored. Maybe I just do not know what you are talking about? How can the resources shown not be considered reliable?

There are thousands of articles accepted here with far less than what Clear Channel has provided. Is AMG a reliable source? AMG is on Wiki Is THE ORCHARD a relaible source? AMG is on Wiki Is iTunes? same Is Amazon? same Is Rhapsody? " Is Google?        "

The links to reviews such as Muzikmanreviews.com ???

Reviews on the above?

Orchard develops artists and artists do not pay Orchard unless they sell records.

Which comes first? To have the line-up that this band has is hard to ignore. Stephen hasn't even gone to the Scott Bennett connection. Scott was on the Smiles GRAMMY with Brian Wilson. Scott is on the current album.

I will look at this over the week-end and call on some experts on Wikipedia. This whole thing is so frustrating because I truly believe it has been initiated by some people that have the wrong motives for the deletion of an article about a guy who has played for over 40 years.

Truly yours,

Christine  1-19-07


 * Christine--you might want to consider that recruiting people to participate in an AfD is a pretty serious faux pas around here. (and, by the way sockpuppetry is frowned upon too. JChap2007 13:56, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

COMMENT:   Do not consider that CLEAR and Lee Nysted are partners here; I resent the insinuation that this is some conspiracy. On the contrary, the largest radio station system in the world is picking up Lee's music. Address me, if you like, but please do not make assumptions that are not in keeping with your rules here. The "voting" here turned negative and someone was forced to put up a warning. What does that tell you about the objectivity of this system? Please do not refer to me in "joint tn." with anyone. C.H.Huntress829 05:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I put up the warning, in response to your statement that you will "call in some experts." I'm sorry that you are taking this personally. It is not intended as such. JChap2007 15:53, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

The issue is black and white; it is not anywhere in the middle. Huntress829 05:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC) It is because of this type of jounalism "carnage" that Wikipedia is losing credibility in the school system. Every MySpace and Facebook child can come on here and tamper with the truth. That is quite sad, but the truth. C.H. 1-20-07 Huntress829 05:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment: Argument now fails following insertion of new data.Huntress829 05:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * AMG reviews are up on nearly every digital site, see iTunes. The AMG site has the credits and they are in full view.
 * The resources listed in the article are accepted by all music and entertainment guides around the world as reliable.


 * Comment Argument fails following insertion of new data.Huntress829 05:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment:There was nothing "phony" about GRAMMY nominations for Lee Nysted. That is pure slander. C.H. 1-20-07.Huntress829 05:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment Above arguments against, now fail following the insertion of new data.Huntress829 05:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC) Salt away an article with more verifiable and reliable data than most other musicians articles? That is newsworthy. Silly? Hardly. Change the definition of "Bands"? No.Huntress829 05:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment: I have spent 15 minutes looking at this site, and I have spent about 20 minutes looking at the sites people have put up about me on "MySpace." No laughing here, not out loud, for cetain. I have learned a very painful lesson about what I, as a father of 3 girls, must face in a world that seems to lack morals and dignity at every turn. I am grateful to be here and by God's grace, I will watch my children grow up. I was nominated for 3 Grammy awards and made it to the 3rd tier. I was grateful, even though I do not know who nominated me for "Gospel." I am a voting member of NARAS. The only way someone gets that right? To qualify. To qualify I had to go through far more than this inquisition is requesting. The information provided herein, is accurate and more than enough to meet the Wikipedia guidelines established before this article was written. My information is reliable and it is accepted all over the world as reliable. Now, I will go back to my life and my family. God bless all of you; happy new year. User:Lee_Nysted 21:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC) Comment: I have changed my mind; I will defend my name here. The rules say we can change our opinions as the discussion goes along.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lee_Nysted 15:15, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment:  All the above arguments against, fail followng insertion of new data in article. If the delete voters come back, they should see the reliable, verifiable proof of notability that Rambling Man speaks about.Huntress829 05:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, I've returned, but what about the touring with all these famous ensemble artists? There is no reliable source for that, and as of now, it appears a bit iffy, to say the least. Patstuarttalk 06:50, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Mr. Stuart, Please look at Mr. Walker's own sites, as well as the "Walker" site in the article.Huntress829 00:07, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Note: ''I have removed the vast majority of bold text from the comments of Huntress829, as I find it offensive as "SHOUTING" Ohconfucius 08:25, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I see you have been here since July 2006. We are expected to "believe" people at face value here. The original article in question was here long before you got here. It is entirely possible that you are one of the myspace users that came here on a witch hunt? Please stick to the facts and do not make this article into a myspace type brawl. I find your arrogance and lack of proofs, to be astounding and insulting. You have been proven wrong in your accusations and yet you fail to admit it. Look at the companies that represent M.R. Nysted's music. AMG, is only one of nearly 10,000. THE ORCHARD is not a "fly by night" label. All of our discourse is going out on the internet. I pray a person in charge here, will intervene and help create an article that will stand as The Rambling Man stated, so politely. Huntress829 17:17, 22 January 2007 (UTC) (e.g., National Enquirer.) Further, this forum is for debate only; it is not a ballot and we are not to "count" votes. I believe anyone that still feels that this article is not representing a notable band or ensemble, is not reading and reviewing the additions to the article itself.Huntress829 14:21, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment to Ohconfucius, in re: your defense of voting and your bald accusations.
 * Note: Mr. Ohconfucius, I see you did not withdraw your false claim above about Lee being "self published" even though it has been disproved over and over by reliable sources, as shown in the reference. Out of courtesy to you, I will leave it for you to scratch. If you do not scratch it, I will scratch it for you, as I find it offensive and false sensationalism.

Note: As a journalist; avid reader, and a user of Wikipedia, I am "salting" this article and the arguments for and against it. This has been an interesting experience (My first and second of many articles to come) and offers a great informative piece for researching the ways and means that Wikipedia operates. Thank you. Huntress829 15:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Huntress829 15:48, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * If you exhibit an ability to learn from this experience and conform your submissions to Wikipedia guidelines, then I and other editors will welcome you. If you continue to use personal attacks and assume base motives from other editors, you will not find being here a pleasant experience, and I suggest that you explore another hobby. --Dhartung | Talk 23:12, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

'''Comment and Reply to Mr./Ms. Martin:'''

"Any one of the following" means/= "any one of the following."
 * Notability, as defined by Wikipedia, is anything but a "grey area." You have taken notability to a new dimension here.

Your own version of the truth, is seen by your ability to imply dishonesty, and you skirt around the central issues that have been added, and which, certainly prove notability, as well as, success with notable artists. Friends and fans are encouraged to write the type of article that was written here. Unfortunately, Wikipedia is becoming more like MySpace, with a "chosen few" having all power.

Lacking an article in Wikipedia does not constitute anything, in the real world, but not having one based on your reasons, takes this encyclopedia to new lows. My children cannot use Wikipedia in the schools they go to, for the above reasons. That, I believe is a shame

Ms./Mr. Martin, "The Musicians we cover" as you put it? We stopped in the (alphbet e's,) but suffice it to say, we had about 92% (1000 names) that did not meet the criteria for "notability" that you and Mr. Dhartung, claim to be your "arrows" in the Wikipedia quiver.

Any editor out there looking for articles to delete would have a "field day." Witch hunting is what brought us here. I own the copywrite for the review on my site.

Lee Nystedhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lee_Nysted 16:40, 23 January 2007 (UTC)