Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Third holiest site in Islam (2nd nomination)

Is this a POV deletion attempt?
Of all the holy sites in Islam, User:ALM scientist, (the nominator for deletion of ths article) added a photo of the Al-Aqsa Mosque on his user page the day after he found out about the deletion attempt, currently entitled: “A view of the Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, a holy site in Islam”. If this doesn’t prove his personal POV attempt to delete this page, what does?!! Chesdovi 13:15, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I am a Muslim and this is majority Muslims' POV. The article name say it "Third holiest site in ISLAM". --- ابراهيم 13:18, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Before you try discrediting AfD's or Edits made by users based on their POVs, I highly suggest you look over at your own comments and past behavior. thestick 16:59, 11 November 2006 (UTC)


 * In my experience, User:ALM scientist has been very neutral even on topics he is close too. It is allowed for an editor to have a POV as long as they do not push it. I have seen no evidence of impropriety from User:ALM scientist. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 17:03, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Speedy keep???
I am very surprised by the speedy lock of this discussion page! There have been very valid points for the argument that this article should be deleted, including BostonMA's discovery of some non-working (non-existing?) links that Amoruso provided, and was not able to justify. Also, the argument provided by Almaqdisi, Amerique, and bsnowball are very sound and should have been respond to with NPOV arguments. The Deletion policy provides guidelines to this project, and the non-biased judgement of the admins should have the final say in the direction of the arguement. However, Naconkantari did not show a non-biased judgement. On this note, both Mantanmoreland and Hut 8.5 made the exact same mistake spelling Hummus reather than Humus Sapiens, in which Amoruso came defending them. Now this is exteremly dubious. Meatpoppets are grounds for blocking!

Something smells here and I am sure I am not the only one smelling it!

I am calling for a real non-biased Admin to take a look into this, Please! Aboosh 00:01, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


 * While I am not accusing anybody of anything, I do not understand what per recent discussion means, the word recent links to the same page it is on. I would appreciate a more detailed explaination. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 00:20, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * "Per recent discussion" links to the previous AfD. I as well believe this AfD shouldnt have been closed speedily since it had been left to progress this far. --Ezeu 00:33, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah I missed that, however I don't see how that allows for a speedy keep when an ongoing discussion was taking place. After all, that last discussion has no consensus, so what is the violation in duiscussing it further. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 00:38, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


 * This is exactly what is bothering me. I do believe that there was a very strong chance to reach a consensus this time around. There were enough valid arguments that should have been addressed before closing the article.
 * But I will adhere to BostonMA advice to allow the admins to sort this out, and for the editor's to stay WP:COOL and to try to reach a consensus on any biased views in the article itself. The efforts to continue this AfD discussion should be persued as well. Aboosh 00:50, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Good idea, stay cool. I can certainly understand what the admin was thinking when he/she locked it. However, I think that a new discussion that has a chance of consensus is not in violation of a previous discussion that failed to acheive consensus, even if just recently.


 * I can understand an insisted delay after a discussion that came to a clear consensus. But wikipedia thrives on bold progressive movements, restricted only by a search for truth and a consideration for others opinions. If we have not reached consensus then we should keep talking, and that is what this nomination is about. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 00:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I closed this discussion as a speedy keep because of the previous discussion that had occurred a few days before. If you wanted to challenge the validity of the discussion, go to WP:DRV instead of creating another AFD. Nacon kantari 01:02, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It does say we should try to resolve the issue in discussion with the administrator and courteously invite the deleting admin to take a second look. Are you done with that part? Also we are not challenging tha validity of that AfD because it's finding was no consensus there is no finding to challenge. Your response does not really address the concerns we have put forth here. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 01:18, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Note This discussion is being addressed at Deletion_review/Log/2006_November_12. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 17:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Background, General Info, and Terminologies:
Since this discussion is in regard to a subject that is related to the religious significance of a Mosque, It would be important for all people to get familiar with basic information regarding this topic. I have tried here to bring various subjects related to the topic and enlist them in this general background here. Hopefully this may serve as a reference for further discussions. Based on the input of several editors here, I noticed that I should clarify few things here so that it things become less confusing and explain the Islamic stand on some of the issues relevant to this subject. The info presented here is shared by all Muslims unlike what is being expressed here by some.

First, it is important to note that in regard to al-Aqsa mosque (al-Masjid al-Aqsa), the following should be considered:

1-	Early Muslims faced it when holding their prayers, i.e. it was their first Qibla. The term al-Masjid al-Aqsa which was coined in the Quran 17:1 and mentioned explicitly in  and elsewhere refers to the site in Jerusalem and literally means in plain English the “farthest mosque”. The al-Aqsa mosque was unanimously known to all Muslims to be in Jerusalem and they were facing it during their prayers. This Masjid, i.e. spot of prostration, was the second site, according to Islamic beliefs, that was designated for Allah’s worship. Muhammad mentioned that he was the first to be allowed to prostate to God at any area arguing that the whole earth has been made a Masjid for any Muslim and that he may prostrate in his prayer anywhere on earth. This was not generally the case before. This is really understood by the words of him saying: "I have been given five things which were not given to any amongst the Prophets before me. These are:1. Allah made me victorious by awe [by His frightening of my enemies] for a distance of one month's journey.2. The earth has been made for me [and for my followers] a "masjid" [Arabic: a place for prostration] and a means of purification. Therefore, my followers can pray wherever the time of a prayer is due.3. The booty has been made halal [lawful] for me [and was not made so for anyone else].4. Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation exclusively but I have been sent to all mankind.5. I have been given the right of intercession [on the Day of Resurrection.

2-	This Masjid was the second chosen site on earth after the one in Mecca. The one in Mecca is mentioned in Quran as being established by Ibrahim and Ismail, while the Aqsa has been designated for worship 40 years later possibly by Yaqub. Note, that some scholars argued that both sites might possibly have been established by Adam because in Quran the verse regarding Ibrahim’s construction to the Mecca Masjid might possibly mean also ‘reestablished’. But in any case, all these Prophets are considered by Muslims Prophets of Islam including the Prophets and Kings of the Children of Israel. The Quran has allocated in fact much of its text talking about them and their stories. 

3-	This Masjid in Jerusalem is one of the three sites or Masjids to which a Muslim may embark on a Journey to visit and pray at. These three Masjids are all sites chosen by Prophets. Masjid al-Haram and Masjid al-Aqsa as we mentioned earlier were chosen by Ibrahim and his sons Ishmael Isaac and his son Jacob. Masjid of Medina’s site is chosen by the Prophet Muhammad himself. This fact has been mentioned in many narrations one of which is this one here:

4-	 The city of Mecca has Masjid al-Haram, this Masjid, a site with what ever buildings that it may hold, is considered the most vitreous prayer site for Muslims. In virtue, it is followed by Masjid of al-Madina, and finally followed by that of Jerusalem which was named in Quran as Masjid al-Aqsa. There has been several Hadiths actually regarding the virtue of these sites, some is considered weak, but the most correct of which that has a consensus among Muslim scholars is this one which is not in Sahih Muslim neither of Bukhari and reads as follows:: "the Prophet of Allah Muhammad said a prayer in Masjid al-Haram (Mecca) is worth 100,000 prayers; a prayer in my Masjid (Medina) is worth 1,000 prayers; and a prayer in Masjid Bayt al-Maqdis is worth 500 prayers (Jerusalem)” This has been reported by Tabarani, and Ibn Taymiyah said it is a correct narration supported by Bazaar who said it is authentic and others. Other narrations that are considered weak by Muslims scholars talk about 50,000 for Jerusalem’s and Medina’s Masjids and 100,000 for Mecca. This is another issue, and hence scholars stick to the more correct narration. If any of the Wikipedians can find something in this regard in Bukhari, please quote it and show the link please.

5-	The third holiest: Now coming back to our main subject, is the term third Holiest associated to a Masjid, or the City or what? Well, the answer is like this. The Quran always when talking about Jerusalem mentioned it in the context of the blessed land. Even when the term al-Masjid al-Aqsa was mentioned in the Quran in verse 17:1, the Quran said “al-Masjid al-Aqsa which we blessed its surroundings or ” and this is meant the Holy Land with al-Masjid al-Aqsa at its core. Now this brings us to the concept of the Holy Land. In Quran, the Holy Land was always considered to be of that land that necessarily includes Jerusalem as a whole and its surroundings. This has been mentioned several time in the Quran some of which may be viewed here:, however more on this topic can also be found at. It is not true therefore as some WikiPedians suggested that for Muslims that Jerusalem is not holy, but its mosque only. At the same time, the text in Quran never referred to the land of Hijaz which includes the cities of Mecca and Medina as being Holy. Of course no one questions that the site of Masjid al-Haram and Masjid al-Madina are most sacred and virtuous if compared to al-Aqsa. See

The origin of the word third holiest sometimes come from the Muslim view of the virtue of praying at these Masjids. However as I demonstrated earlier that some ill-informed Journalists and so on used also the term Second Holiest to refer to Masjid al-Aqsa in Jerusalem. This is most likely because of the second point here which is that Muslims believe it to be the second chosen and designate spot to worship God by his Prophets. So it sounds that the word Holy is quite fuzzy in use sometimes. As a summary to the above, in Islamic tradition, al-Masjid al-Aqsa is the first Qiblah, the second designated Masjid on earth and the third pilgrim destination for Muslims. Of course, I have to be careful here with the word Pilgrim. In Islam this is quite reserved to refer to Hajj which can only be done to Mecca ONLY. In Islam, the pilgrim to Mecca is one of the five pillars of Islam and is called the Grand Pilgrim. Pilgrim to Medina and Jerusalem is not one of these Pillars of Islam, but is only characterized as a recommended and encouraged journey. Note that the word Hajj is not used in Arabic to describe a journey towards Jerusalem or Medina.

Another remark is to note that the term al-Masjid al-Aqsa in Islamic tradition denotes the spot which is also called today al-Haram al-Sharif. This spot has two large congregational buildings; the southern one at the front which derives it name from the word “al-Masjid al-Aqsa”, and a second congregation building that is called the Dome of the Rock. The Dome of the Rock covers a cave rock which is believed to be the site of ascension to the heavens from which Muslims believe their prophet ascended to the heavens.

The points above briefly summarize the beliefs of Muslims in regard to Jerusalem and al-Masjid al-Aqsa. These beliefs are not necessarily shared by non-Muslims as evident from this one here. But nevertheless these are important points to consider when a subject related to Muslim beliefs is discussed. Note that there has been a disinformation campaign launched to refute and discredit the Islamic beliefs and historical events related to this important Islamic site, you may read more about this at this article.

See further related References:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/h003.html

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/aqsa.html

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/nightjourney.htm

http://www.islamawareness.net/Isra/night.html

http://answering-islam.org/Gilchrist/Vol1/3d.html

http://www.islamawareness.net/Isra/fatwa_01.html

http://www.riifs.org/journal/essy_v2no2_grbar.htm

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Dome_Of_The_Rock/hajjdome.html

Almaqdisi talk to me 05:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)