Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Yasuhiro Konishi

OK, I'm confused. There are absolutely third party references and sources included in these entries, including articles from Dragon Times and Fighting Arts, as well as two separate documentary films from Tsunami. I used the same level of rigor that I found in many other articles related to karate styles currently included on Wikipedia. Additionally, the article I wrote for Shindo Jinen Ryu corrects a factually inaccurate merging of what appears to be an old article on that topic with one about the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai; the first is a style of karate - one of the very first Japanese styles as a matter of fact - and the second is a cultural regulatory body.Pbelleisle (talk) 00:19, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
 * There are sources. And then there are reliable sources. Dragon Times and Fighting Arts don't count. These are your first articles, I know. But they are not up to par.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龙 ) 00:47, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Again, I'm confused. At the link you cited, the definitions supplied for questionable sources do not apply to Dragon Times or Fighting Arts, and no consideration has been given for the two Tsunami documentaries, which are both based on extensive primary research. Additionally, the criteria for notable styles appear to be met. Finally, looking at the entries for Motobu-Ryu and Kushin-Ryu - to name just two other styles - the standards you appear to be applying to my articles are not being applied there. I'm happy to add additonal sources for all three articles, but please give me time to do so - do not delete Yasuhiro Konishi or Japan Karate-Do Ryobu-Kai and let my revision to Shindo Jinen Ryu stand.Pbelleisle (talk) 01:35, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

BTW - Thanks for your patience on this - I appreciate it!Pbelleisle (talk) 01:40, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I've added additional sourcing to both the Yasuhiro Konishi and Japan Karate-Do Ryobu-Kai articles, but also thought it might be helpful to summarize a few items. First, here are the reasons that I believe these topics deserve Wikipedia entries:

1. Yasuhiro Konishi was one of the very first to teach karate on the Japanese mainland, and his dilligent efforts to gain acceptance for karate in Japan were a major factor in the art's success and expansion.

2. Konishi's history is closely intertwined with that of Gichin Funakoshi, who founded Shotokan and is considered the father of modern karate. Funakoshi was able to establish his first club only because Konishi agreed to let him teach and train at his (Konishi's) own school. 3. Konishi significantly influenced what was taught by Funakoshi, directly affecting the lineage of both Shotokan and the art of karate in general. 4. Konishi was a senior student and colleague to not only Gichin Funakoshi, but Kenwa Mabuni (founder of Shito-Ryu), Morihei Ueshiba (founder of Aikido), and Choki Motobu (founde of Motobu-Ryu and one of the greatest fighters of his time.) The style of karate he created as a result - Shindo Jinen Ryu - blends all of these influences, and is unique. Shindo Jinen Ryu is recognized as a significant style by the Japan Karate Federation.

5. Konishi is acknowledged to have been key to the success of Choki Motobu in teaching in Japan.

6. Shindo Jinen Ryu is today taught through the organization Konishi founded - Japan Karate-Do Ryobu-Kai - in more than 20 countries on every continent except Antarctica. The list of nations is as follows: Japan, United States, Venezuela, United Kingdom, Sweden, Sri Lanka, Panama, Russia, Pakistan, Nepal, Mexico, India, Germany, Iran, Denmark, Chad, Canada, Cameroon, Brazil, Bahamas, Aruba, Armenia and Australia. 7. Notable practitioners of Shindo Jinen Ryu include Kiyoshi Yamazaki - who has served in a number of high-level capacities for the WKF and the USANKF - and more recently Mina Yamazaki, who is one of the top female karateka competing at the world level today.

Second, with regard to sources, I thought this information would be helpful:

1. FightingArts.com is a well-respected source of scholarly articles that has been in existence for more than a decade.

2. Dragon Times is the internet arm of Classical Fighting Arts magazine, which is a highly respected source of first person interviews and scholarly articles that has been in publication since 1968.

3. "Old Grand Master Yasuhiro Konishi: Karate and his Life” by Kozo Kazu is a biography of Yasuhiro Konishi published in 1993

4. "Ancient Okinawan Martial Arts, Volume 2: Koryu Uchinadi" by Patrick McCarthy is a primary research work written by one of the most respected English language martial arts scholars in the world today

5. "Japanese Karate, Volume 1: Shindo Jinen Ryu" is a documentary film produced by Dragon-Tsunami, the multimedia arm of Classical Fighting Arts. The material therein is almost entirely from primary research, and focuses on the birth of karate in Japan and Konishi's important role in advancing the art

6. "Japanese Karate, Volume 2: Ryobukai and Shotokan" is a documentary film produced by Dragon-Tsunami, the multimedia arm of Classical Fighting Arts. The material therein is almost entirely from primary research, and focuses on the close relationship between the founders of Shindo Jinen Ryu and Shotokan karate.

7. "Self-referential" resources like the Japan Karate-Do Ryobu-Kai Instructors Manual and JKR websites were only used to support information that is inherently non-contentious such as organizational goals and curriculum.

Hope this helps keep the Konishi article in place, as well as that for Japan Karate-Do Ryobu-Kai. In regard to the latter, I believe it would make sense to leave the Shindo Jinen Ryu page as a simple redirect, but change that redirect to point to the Japan Karate-Do Ryobu-Kai page, which I have also strengthened considerably.

Finally, I am certainly sensitive to the number of martials arts whose practitioners have an over-inflated sense of importance about what they do. These entries, however, are genuinely different. Major elements of karate literally would not looks as they do today - either organizationally or content-wise - without the influence of Yasuhiro Konishi, and both JKR and Shindo Jinen Ryu remain vital and important pieces of the current martial arts scene around the world. Thank you for your consideration. Pbelleisle (talk) 19:44, 24 July 2011 (UTC)