Wikipedia talk:Boot Camp/Archive 2006-03-01

Redone page
I've redone the page to trim it down a lot and remove a lot of duplicated tutorial material from other pages. Our emphasis should be on our IRC channel, in my opinion. What do others think? Talrias (t | e | c) 16:06, 28 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I like it so far. Agreed re: IRC emphasis.  We still need a spectrum of specific things to cover; the days last fall when I gave focused 15-min tutorials were fairly well attended [by people who wanted help in those areas].  Topics : external wiki-editors, javascript and other tools for wp, using templates and categories, page layout (images, tables, divs, anchors, TOC)...  +sj + 09:30, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


 * That's right, I think we do. Scheduled tutorials are a great idea and I think we should do them. However, I think the accompanying information should probably be on a sub-page so it's not quite so confusing! We should keep the main page as simplistic as possible. Talrias (t | e | c) 16:09, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Bootcamp image
Nice. Are there others ? We could find uses for a handful of great images like that. A little image for a user-page bootcamp icon when calling someone to come to bootcamp would rock. +sj +


 * I found that image on the recruit training article. :) What do you mean by a little image for a user page icon? I'm not sure I follow. Talrias (t | e | c) 16:07, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Web based IRC client
The client is now up and running on the toolserver.

Most of the IRC commands have been disabled, the only commands still functional are /me, /nick and /msg, it autoconnects to freenode, and autojoins #wikipedia-bootcamp. If anyone have any suggestions to improvements, please let me know, and I'll see what I can do. Bjelleklang -  talk 23:27, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Own Opinion?
Where can I put my own opinion on Wikipedia?--Daniel O 17:14, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Daniel O! Well, your own opinion certainly can't go in any articles (this falls under the No original research policy). Maybe some of your opinion may be suitable on your user page (see the guidleines for userpage content), but essentially if you want to share your opinion you should try a site like Everything2.--Commander Keane 17:42, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Page name
Some people have mentioned they are uncomfortable with the name "boot camp" based on the connotations it brings. While I personally don't have a problem with the name, I understand why others do have a problem. Does anyone have any recommended names for what we are trying to accomplish here? Talrias (t | e | c) 19:46, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes I don't much like the connotations either. How about something along the lines of "instant help" (shortcut: WP:iHELP), or "help on practically everything" (shortcut: WP:HOPE). These are just off the topo of my head, I'm sure there are many more. Paul August &#9742; 22:53, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the ideas! Part of the useful connotation of "Boot Camp" is that it indicates we help new users with relatively simple questions. We can't help everyone - since hard question are best served by the Help desk which allow a greater depth of answer.--Commander Keane 23:12, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with Paul. The name and the image of the soldier with a hippopotamus mouth is not very pleasing, and not funny either. I would suggest to remove any US military overtones from the page.


 * By the way, how well does it work? Do you keep some statistics on how many people are asking for help each day? Is it increasing, decreasing? Is the help promt enough? Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 01:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't mind the name changing, I'd just like the keep to goal orientated towards helping new users. I'll remove the image. Stats for helpme are kept by pgk. He has the intention of displaying them on his toolserver page - when he does I'll put a note on this talk with the url.--Commander Keane 01:24, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

The picture is removed now, thanks! But just for future reference, you can see on the left right what I meant.

How about renaming the page also? I like Paul August's Instant help. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 05:22, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * How about a name such as "Orientation" or "Wikipedia 101"? GChriss 23:32, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd like further discussion before moving to the name of "Instant help". The stats will reveal how "instant" the service is.--Commander Keane 05:30, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

How about doing some cooperation, if not merging, with Clueless newbies? They are more Wiki-based, and you more IRC based, but one could list there that either way is fine for asking for help. I mean, we have two projects with the same purpose. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 02:22, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I've already asked the same question on WP:CN, but so far with no reply, other than from sj. I think that merging the two would be the best for WP, as they are as you say, the same project but using different tools, and thus, it would be better to give users the option of either IRC or Wiki as part of the same project. Bjelleklang -  talk 03:46, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

New suggestion for putting the link to the bootcamp
Hi all. Some of us intersected at template:welcome, where it seems that the preferred decision is to not have the bootcamp link in that template, rather only the link to helpme. I hope this does not leave any of you with hard feelings. Over there, we are getting suggestions with new cool things to include in welcome rather often, the overall community input is very important, and also, one has to be rather conservative about what eventually makes it in.

Apart from that, I am very happy with this bootcamp project, one of the several designed to help newbies. The reason I am writing here is to remark of the very sensible suggestion by Commander Keane to make the link to the bootcamp more proeminent on Where to ask a question, which is also a very visited page, and contains the several other ways newbies can get help.

Wonder if you can comment at Wikipedia talk:Where to ask a question. Again, that is also a much discussed page, and it would be unwise to just take Commander Keane's suggestion right away and put it in, but if there is enough support, the link there would be a nice advertisement to your project. Wonder what you think. Thanks. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 22:05, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Question
When you put big or small in brackets the writing after that will come up ever big or small, is there anywhere on Wikipedia where you can read all of those different codes?--Daniel O 17:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * There is a list at the bottom of Span_tags.--Commander Keane 23:43, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

General 'help newbies' projects
It might be useful to consolidate some of the other newbie projects together, at least for the purposes of using Relatedchanges more effectively. Please add relevant projects to this list:

Current:
 * Welcoming committee
 * The 'new users' page where newbies post about themselves
 * The IRC #wikipedia-bootcamp channel
 * The Ref desk and Help desk
 * Policy simplification - the educational aspects

Proposed:
 * Basic training for new users; to snag a nice icon and category on their userpage.
 * Peer review for individual contributors; advising them on their contribution patterns
 * Specialist training for various projects
 * Vandal-fighting
 * User-welcoming (and following up!)
 * Cleanup, PNA, NPOV
 * Peer review: WP:PR, WP:FAC, and topic-specific reviews (Music, Chemistry, &c.)
 * +sj +

See also Wikipedia talk:Clueless newbies.

WikiProject Help
Anyone interested should take a look at this, and sign up if interested in helping restructuring the helpsystem. Bjelleklang -  talk 17:54, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion for merging with WP:Clueless newbies
Well, based on the above, I have been bold, and put a merge tag on this project. Comments at Wikipedia talk:Clueless newbies. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 07:22, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Merge the clueless newbies into this article. The DI depicted reminds me of Boot Camp that members of my family had been in. Martial Law 09:51, 19 February 2006 (UTC) :)


 * I've removed the merge tag, clueless newbies has been changed substantially and has somewhat merged this page into it. See Newcomers help page--Commander Keane 11:49, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I would have liked at least one or two days of discussion. There was no rush I think. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 16:46, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The change began discussion over a week ago. You can put the merge tag back on or whatever, but I haven't seen any discussion and it appears the relevent parties know about the situation.--Commander Keane 17:33, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I think your proposal was more about structural changes, and not a merger. And it attracted rather little discussion; the merge tags on could have attracted more. But OK, things are better now.


 * However, I want to point out that negative connotations was not in the name "Clueless newbies", that was dead on, and people would get what it was about. Negative connotations are in the :Bootcamp" name. There was plenty of talk about it, and you guys didn't yet do anything to rename the project. Many people would find it very offensive to have a help page named after American military training camps. Think about it. :) Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 17:41, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * We couldn't think of a better name, and now Boot Camp will dissolve. I see no problem now.--Commander Keane 18:06, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Who decided it will dissolve? And then, one should redirect Boot Camp to Newcomers help page. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 18:42, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

In the discussion I linked to previously (here) it was descided that it would dissolve. I guess really the people complaining about the name descided that it would dissolve (altough I guess renaming was an option, but one which never occured).--Commander Keane 19:14, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

And yes, it probably will redirect (that's what I meant by dissolve). Just as soon as the header at Newcomers help page is improved.--Commander Keane 19:20, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It's not about dissolving, actually. The current newcomers help page doesn't deal with bootcamp issues; and both it and this page need to provide more lasting help, and not just VP/Refdesk style Q & A help.  This should be a generative force for improving the help system.  See Bjelleklang's link to the new help project; which I hope everyone will join.  +sj + 01:48, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


 * To be completely pedantical and picky 'til the end, most of the discussion about "dissolving" the bootcamp took place not here, where it should have, but rather at Wikipedia talk:Newcomers help page, most people involved in the bootcamp project did not participate (Talrias, Danny, DrDebug), and there was some loose talk about merging (whatever one may say with that), and not about "dissolving the bootcamp".
 * Right. There are still lots of bootcamp-style projects which we should spec out and take on, don't fret. +sj +
 * I am freetting, I am freTTing!! O my!!! Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 04:47, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * But I perfectly agree with your decision (you meaning "you, yourself", not all the participants), and I think redirecting this to the other project is a good thing. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 20:08, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Making the overall help system a coherent whole, and not lots of small groups, is a good thing. +sj + 01:48, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

To Boot Camp help me out!