Wikipedia talk:Edit warring/Archives/2010/November

Removal
A recent edit removed the following sentence: "Though they may violate the general rule against edit-warring for other reasons, four reverts during a period greater than 24 hours does not violate the three-revert rule."

I can sympathize with the desire to tighten up the phraseology, but am concerned about this particular removal. Here's why....

The page says, "There is a bright line known as the three-revert rule (3RR). This says that an editor must not perform more than three reverts, in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material, on a single page within a 24-hour period." Notice that this quoted sentence doesn't explain that the rule says nothing else; it says what the rule includes but does not say that this is ALL the rule includes. In other words, the page right now says that a person will automatically get blocked for 3rr if there are more than three reverts within 24 hours, but the page doesn't explicitly say that a person will not get automatically blocked for 3rr in other circumstances. So, I think the sentence that was removed is important and will prevent a common misunderstanding. (Incidentally, I have retired as a named editor, but occasionally edit now as an IP.)166.137.138.205 (talk) 05:41, 13 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi, responding to your note on my talk page. I don't think I understand your point, sorry. You may be pointing to a general confusion on the page, which I agree is unfortunate, and comes from having merged the 3RR page into this page. So we currently say: you may be blocked for 3RR, and you may be blocked for not-3RR.


 * In reality, only people violating 3RR are blocked, unless the edit warring is a slow edit war, or in some other ways sustained, or 3RR-gaming. So the policy as currently written is a little inconsistent, and does not describe actual practice. SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 06:24, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the reply. The sentence I'm urging you to reinsert is this: "Though they may violate the general rule against edit-warring for other reasons, four reverts during a period greater than 24 hours does not violate the three-revert rule."
 * Do you think this quoted sentence is redundant, or alternatively do you think it is incorrect? I do not think it is redundant or incorrect.  Instead it helps to define what 3RR is.
 * Before I retired as a named editor, I was blocked for "3RR" due to making four reverts during a period slightly greater than 24 hours, when an editor filed a complaint at the 3RR noticeboard. I was quite irate about it at my user talk page. In a subsequent ArbCom proceeding regarding a completely unrelated set of articles, ArbCom looked at that irate comment I had made, and used it to justify rejecting my request that a sanction be lifted.  So, I retired.  This is what others' misunderstanding and abuse of 3RR has done to me personally, and I would like to spare others the hassle by making this page 100% clear about what 3RR is and what it is not.  The sentence you removed did that, I believe.166.137.138.205 (talk) 06:42, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't really see how your experiences support the sentence you want inserted. As you've found, you can be blocked for making excess reverts without breaking the letter of 3RR, and it isn't greatly important that you were blocked for edit-warring generally rather than under 3RR specifically, so it would seem not just redundant but potentially misleading to insert a sentence emphasizing that particular (still likely blockable) behaviour is not technically a breach of 3RR. --Kotniski (talk) 08:34, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I was not blocked for any form of edit-warring other than 3RR. There is a reason for that.  Getting a user quickly and easily blocked is much more efficient via 3RR than via a more general accusation of edit-warring; i.e. 3RR is automatic, surrounding circumstances such as justifications or the behavior of other editors need not be considered, and the process moves much faster.  The characterization at this page of 3RR as a "bright line" is extremely deceptive, if you want to allow use of the 3RR process even when there are no more than 3 edits within 24 hours.
 * Retirement is enjoyable, and editors who are trapped by this phony use of 3RR will enjoy retirement as well, so it's not the end of the world if the deception continues.
 * The article where this happened to me was Clarence Thomas. An editor had inserted material from an opinion piece titled "Rodent in Robes".  I removed it, with an explanation at the article talk page.  Subsequently, the same editor again inserted material from an opinion piece by the same author that appeared in the same publication.  Since this was a BLP, I almost removed it immediately, but for greater caution waited past the 24 hours.  At which point I was blocked for 3RR, and a remark I made about that block at my user talk page was later seized upon by ArbCom in a completely unrelated case, to extend sanctions for (apparently) the rest of my life.  All because of the obviously deceptive material at this page.  Cheers.166.137.138.186 (talk) 16:10, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Making a fourth revert just outside the 24-hour period in order to game the policy is indeed seen as a 3RR violation, and people are often blocked for it. SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 18:50, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Then why on Earth not say so at this page, instead of deceiving editors into thinking that 3RR is truly a "bright line" rule?
 * The sentence that you removed has made clear for many months that 3RR is not to be used in the way you describe. However, if the consensus is to use 3RR in the way you describe, then please clarify at this page that it is not entirely a "bright line" rule.
 * The admin who used 3RR this way in my case had previously said it was not to be used that way. Indeed, the fact that a person waits past 24 hours to revert is often seen as a good-faith effort to carefully follow the rules. In my case, I assure you that I was editing in good faith, just like this editor was.  Anyway, please adjust this page to reflect whatever the policy really is.  Thanks.166.137.136.210 (talk) 19:13, 13 November 2010 (UTC)


 * The fact that you made 4 reverts in 24:01, rather than 24 hours, was presumably taken as clear evidence of an intent to game the policy. The fact that you still don't get it, and are seeking to amend a fundamental site policy to retroactively justify your behavior, suggests that the blocking admin made the right call. The policy is already clear that 3 reverts is not an entitlement, and that people may be blocked even if they don't cross the bright line. Most editors get that when they read the policy. Those who don't are obsessing over the letter of the law to justify their blatant disregard for its spirit. I don't think tweaking the wording is going to fix that problem. MastCell Talk 18:18, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The obsession is yours. You follow me wherever I go, and have filed more failed administrative requests against me than I ever imagined possible.  MastCell is the editor who successfully requested the 3RR block against me for removing the material described above (from the Clarence Thomas article).
 * This policy was perfectly clear until October 28, when it was made unclear. This policy now says that 3RR is a bright-line rule, even though you want to block people merely for coming close to that line.  If you want to do so, then give fair warning in this policy, instead of saying it's a bright line rule.  Do you know what a bright line rule is?
 * An editor once told me, "This is Wikipedia, and we don't create or modify policies based on hypotheticals.". So now you're discounting what I say because of actual personal experience?Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:41, 14 November 2010 (UTC)


 * 3RR policy has been described as a bright line for as long as I remember. I've clarified that gaming the system with a 4th revert just outside 24 hours is likely to be treated as a 3RR violation too.  SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 19:48, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Thx.Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:08, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Proposed edit
If 3RR blocks are appropriate even when the fourth revert occurs after 24 hours, then the policy should not call 3RR a "bright line rule" (unless the purpose is to be deceitful and trap unsuspecting editors). Will anyone object if I come out of retirement to clarify in the policy that 3RR is not a "bright line rule"?166.137.136.69 (talk) 13:48, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure the point of the phrase "bright-line rule" is to say that if you cross the line, you must expect to be blocked. It does not mean that users who don't cross the line won't be blocked. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 14:20, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The term bright line rule is extremely clear. If you want to allow users to be blocked for 3RR even if the fourth edit is after 24 hours, then it is not a bright line rule.  The policy right now is very misleading.  Again, I propose to delete that it is a bright line rule, and instead say that if you cross the line, you must expect to be blocked, but users who don't cross the line may be blocked for 3RR as well.  Does anyone object?166.137.138.78 (talk) 14:30, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I for one certainly don't object, in that I've never liked the phrase, anyway. In part because actually, even clear violations of 3RR are up to admin discretion whether to block or not (I've more than once refused to block an editor who had reverted four times in 24 hours because the other editor in the dispute had reverted three times and I didn't believe in blocking only one when both were edit warring). I suspect there will be others who do object, though. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 14:32, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Again, I'd like to point out that the 3RR procedures are much more efficient than the procedures for general edit-warring blocks; the former do not have to take into account actions of other editors, justifications need not be considered, and the 3RR noticeboard moves much faster. If you want people to be subject to those procedures even if the fourth revert is after 24 hours, then this policy has to stop saying the opposite.  I think it's bad policy to let admins dish out 3RR blocks for some nebulous period after 24 hours, but if that's really the policy you want then we need to say so at this policy page.166.137.138.78 (talk) 14:42, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Efficient, maybe, but also highly open to gaming, which is pretty much exactly what waiting to make sure your fourth revert falls outside 24 hours is. That's why we need general edit warring blocks. 3RR can't possibly cover all disruptive edit warring behaviour. Personally, I don't bother making the distinction between 3RR and edit warring blocks; I call them all edit warring blocks. That's the real policy; 3RR is just a yardstick. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 14:50, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't understand the assumption of bad faith; for example, if an editor thinks he has a good BLP argument to remove material immediately, but instead waits 24 hours for greater caution in order to get on the other side of the "bright line", I cannot imagine anything in better faith than that. Anyway, there are separate places to report 3RR versus more general edit-warring, right?  That's a lot more than a different yardstick.  While some argue that waiting to get over the bright line is gaming the system or wikilawyering, they seldom use those labels for editors who file complaints at noticeboards or other venues for administrative action; I always tried to refrain from doing that, because it's much better to work out problems at an article talk page (plus it's usually obnoxious wikilawyering to game the system by constantly requesting administrative action unless it's really necessary).  Anyhow, I'll wait 24 hours to see if anyone objects to this edit proposal.  I'd prefer if someone else would make the edit, but I'll do it if necessary (and then re-retire).166.137.136.121 (talk) 15:08, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The problem is that the rule is not there to regulate time in which you can revert; it exists to stop edit warring. So waiting until after 24 hours is not helping the problem at all. And if the person has a BLP reason, the material should be removed immediately and is exempt from 3RR. Oh, and no, there are not separate places to report; it's a single noticeboard for reporting all forms of edit warring, 3RR or otherwise. As for your idea to wait to see if there are objections, though, that seems good to me. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 15:16, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I stand corrected regarding the separate noticeboard. Anyway, I'll stick with the rest of what I said, and am glad you're okay with removing the "bright line" phrase.  As for your recommendation to remove crud from BLPs immediately instead of waiting past 24 hours, maybe that would be worth mentioning in the BLP policy.166.137.136.121 (talk) 15:42, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The BLP exemption, and the preference for removing violations immediately, is already part of policy. It's mentioned in both WP:3RR and WP:BLP. MastCell Talk 18:22, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

(undent) This is not a proposal to explicitly say anything about BLP. It is a proposal to delete that 3RR is a "bright line rule", and instead say that if you cross the line, you must expect to be blocked, but users who don't cross the line may be blocked for 3RR as well. Do you object to that? 3RR is not a "bright line rule" if users are blockable for 3RR after 24 hours. Editors may have perfectly valid reasons for waiting just past 24 hours to make an edit, thinking that waiting in that manner will reduce the appearance of edit-warring (while demonstrating patience, awareness of the rules, and commitment to follow the rules). It would be deceitful for this policy to give editors a false sense of security that they have crossed a "bright-line" when actually they have not. The present policy up until October 28 had made clear for many months that 3RR is inapplicable if the fourth revert is more than 24 hours after the first; if we instead want 3RR to apply in such instances then it is extremely misleading to call it a bright line rule.166.137.138.25 (talk) 18:36, 14 November 2010 (UTC) Incidentally, IP 166 is me.Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:46, 14 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Bright line here just means you're probably okay if you only revert twice (but note: probably), but you're almost certainly in trouble if you revert three times, and if you try to time the third so it's strictly not a 3RR violation, you'll find it's non-strictly one anyway. You're focusing too much on the letter of the policy. SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 19:52, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The letter of the policy can be easily and vastly improved to conform with your interpretation of it. A normal human being will understand a bright line rule to mean that he'll be safe if he doesn't cross the line.  Why can't we keep this policy clear?Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:02, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It's bright on one side, I think is the point. It's true that the description "bright line" is more relevant to admins taking action on the basis of the rule than to users trying to conform to it, so those words perhaps belong better in the "for administrators" section. Though the whole thinking behind this is wrong - the idea of promoting bright-line rules at all is contrary to Wikipedia's most cherished principles. --Kotniski (talk) 20:10, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Slim's recent edits take care of the problem, as far as I'm concerned. Thx.Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:16, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

3RR question
Should something be added to 3RR to relate it more directly to WP:BRD? I ask this because I've seen a situation where an editor will make a change, which is reverted, and they will revert etc. till they claim the other has violated 3RR. eg.

The information is thus forced into the article.
 * 1) A adds content to article
 * 2) B reverts
 * 3) A reverts to add content
 * 4) B reverts a second time
 * 5) A reverts to add content
 * 6) B reverts a third time
 * 7) A reverts, and claims that B has now reached 3RR while they haven't.

Should the first edit, if reverted, count as a revert as well? Chipmunkdavis (talk) 13:14, 6 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I think this is splitting hairs too finely. The second time each editor reverts, especially without any intervening edits by anybody, each editor should be warned and immediately cease reverting and start discussing.  If the reverts are childish my version is better than your version without any offered insight into why the edit is an improvement, I might block an editor if they revert again after being warned, even though they haven't technically reached the 3RR limit.  This is in the spirit of minimizing Wikipedia disruption, minimizing the hassle each good faith editor encounters, quickly ending destructive practices, and encouraging editors to focus on reasonable arguments, preferably based on the five pillars, and collaborating.  —EncMstr (talk) 01:50, 7 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I only ask because I've seen it happen before. Whoever makes the first change gets the information in. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 05:05, 7 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Is that so bad? Anyone else is free to revert it.  What's more important is that the edit warring end quickly.  If you are editor A, then appeal to anyone else who has edited the article recently, or to any WikiProjects covering the article.  —EncMstr (talk) 05:28, 7 November 2010 (UTC)


 * It's actually editor B that's in trouble ;) but thanks, I'll keep that in mind! Chipmunkdavis (talk) 05:32, 7 November 2010 (UTC)


 * They're both in trouble for gaming the damn system... warn them both, that way we don't have people asking questions like this one Gurch (talk) 08:37, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Funny, I've seen the opposite: whoever deletes some information first (no matter how well sourced) has the upper hand because deleting a section is merely a "bold edit", even though it seems to fit the definition of revert given on this page. Tijfo098 (talk) 23:52, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Adding or deleting, whoever does it first has the "upper hand". Chipmunkdavis (talk) 15:38, 22 November 2010 (UTC)