Wikipedia talk:Esperanza/Archive 10

New Esperanza logo & Archivement
Look at this Esperanza logo I made and uploaded: How do you guys like it? And archive this talk page, it's 124+ kb's.--Gangsta-Easter-Bunny 19:44, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * It's cute but a little too yellow, too flashy for me. Maybe you should play with colours a little more? I suggest neutral background, a shade of green or blue. --Ton e  19:52, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * No offense, but I really don't care for it. It's a little bit too "Free to Be ... You and Me" for me. ;-) &mdash; WCityMik e  (talk &bull; contribs &bull; where to reply) 19:56, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Archiving done. H ig hway Rainbow Sneakers 20:00, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * By the way, I didn't mean it could replace the old logo, the one we have now is perfectly ok. The one you made could be used as a decoration of userpages. --Ton e  20:08, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I think it's cool. :) Another nice Esperanza image to have - it's cheery and bright and friendly! -- Nataly a  21:43, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I like the hand-drawn feeling of it. Thanks for sharing with us! Kukini 21:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I didn't say to replace the old logo. No offense anyone, but to me the old logo isn't welcoming, even though it is awesome. And I meant for this to be used to welcome newcomers, How would you want to get a "Welcome" thingy-ma-bober on your page that had the old, dullish more of a color logo, or a nice, handmade, bright new logo? I hate the shade of yellow in the current ones. I could go on till Kingdom Come. But I won't. I didn't design this new logo just for fame or the mop. I designed it because I was thinking of community and welcoming newcomers.Without further adu, you can stop reading my comment---Gangsta-Easter-Bunny 12:19, 20 May 2006 (UTC). (P.S. It's hand-drawn).
 * Hehe... hand drawn... and they're holding hands... (I'm probably the only person who found that funny). Don't worry, Gangsta-Easter-Bunny, the disagreement only came when it was thought to replace the new logo.  Both can logos co-exist in lovely harmony, and be very cool. -- Nataly a  14:49, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * This new logo looks cute. Too cute. There must be some sort of sinister, brain-washing propaganda hidden within it. -- ☆ TBC  ☆  05:48, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I love it!!! I'm going to put it on my Esperanza page and my userpage!Babii-Gurl-Ray 02:50, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Brion Vibber Day
Just a reminder that Brion Vibber Day is coming up on June 1. It passed last year with little fanfare, and I think he deserves a lot more than that. Please help to make him feel appreciated on that day. Thanks! &mdash; Catherine\talk 19:46, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Woohoo! It's CatherineMunro! :D. *Looks adoring* "My hero!". --Cel es tianpower háblame 20:30, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Wow, I hope I remember. -- Xyra  e  l  T 20:34, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * eek! no heroes here.  Go tell Brion HE'S a hero today, he keeps this place running! &mdash; Catherine\talk 11:03, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello, everyone!
Just signed up. I've been a member of Wikipedia for about a year now, but just started majorly contributing a month ago. I've seen this place around everywhere but didn't know what it was! I've been looking for communities within Wikipedia to join, and it seems like this is the perfect place. Hope you'll have me, I look forward to getting to know all of you. :) Dakpowers | Talk 01:17, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Welcome! I hope you will enjoy it here. Have a look around, perhaps get involved in a few of our programs, and continue to spread hope and WikiLove]] as you edit Wikipedia. Let us know if you have any questions! E WS23 | (Leave me a message!) 04:22, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Welcome! Come join us on the IRC channel, if you can. -- Xyra  e  l  T 08:28, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * We are glad to have you! Enjoy yourself! -- Nataly a  16:50, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Template:Smile Problem
Is anyone else worried about the fact that the Smile templete (here) is up for deletion? This was supposed to make users feel better and unite the community, but that clearly hasn't totally happend. More worrying is the fact that while it was a Esperanza proposal with support,(here), Esperanza members have been voting both for and against it. I know that everyone doesn't think the same, and that we're not always going to agree. However, seeing as this seems to be dividing the community somewhat, I think we need to reach some sort of a consensus on how to move forward. Th e  Halo (talk) 20:28, 21 May 2006 (UTC)


 * To top it all off, the one who nominated it for deletion, SPUI has gone and created template:frown. Now, I'm not normally one to pick fights, but this template serves absolutely no purpose but to be in bad faith to make a point that he does not like the smile template. I'm trying to stay on a wikibreak to get away from this mess, but I must say that this is completely inapropriate. I have no problem with people's opinions that the smile template simply promotes talk page spamming, as that is a valid argument concerning the problem of the concept. However, the frown template made in bad faith and notes by users calling the smile template "lame" and "stupid" (by an Esperanza member of all people) is simply too much to make me sit by quietly. I'm avoiding the template for deletion page as I am no doubt subconsciously biased for being the one who made the template, but I just felt I should say something. Cowman109Talk 22:00, 21 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Everyone, Esperanza member or not, is allowed whatever opinion they choose on the Smile Templates. Template:Frown seems to be in rather poor taste. -- Nataly a  23:10, 21 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all members of groups have to vote in the same way. Everyone is an indervidual. What I am saying is that something that was originally supposed to help with stress, and premote wiki-love, has gone wrong, and whether the result is Keep or Delete, something will need to be done to adress the issue, and make sure that everyone (more or less) is happy. (Agreed about Templete:Frown btw) Th e  Halo (talk) 23:55, 21 May 2006 (UTC) (Unless you were refering to Cowman109, in which case, strike everything up to everyone is an indervidual)

Signature limitations
There has been some discussion at Sign your posts on talk pages regarding changes to the way that signatures should be regulated. In particular, signature length and internal linking are being mooted as having strong limitations put upon them. As this would impact Esperanza members perhaps more than other groups, I'm placing this notice here. Contributions to the discussion are of course welcome. - brenneman  {L}  08:16, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

User gallery
I've created a picture gallery at User:Ikiroid/The Gallery for drawings, logos, and photos users use to identify themselves. Feel free to stop by and add your own image.-- The ikiroid  18:14, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * You've created a gallery for people to post image of themselves that don't help the enclyopedia and clog server time, great! ; ) H ig hway Rainbow Sneakers 18:25, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Damn, don't be so hard on the guy. Wikipedia's not only about writing, writing, and more writing.  There's a lot of social interaction involved.


 * A gallery like this helps people to interact with one another on a more familiar level since it will let people put a face to a name. This is a positive thing.  And, honestly, how much server time is going to be used on a gallery of esperanzans?  Virtually none.  And all of the images could be cached, so that'll further lessen the impact.  I view the gallery as a positive development.  -- noosph e re 18:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I didn't mean upload your own images if you haven't already, I just meant that if you have one then you can put it there. I've seen a lot of interesting self-created avatars and whatnot so I thought they could all be categorized onto a page.-- The ikiroid  18:57, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

And is it that big of a deal if the images are in commons anyway?-- The ikiroid  18:58, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Wow, I'm going to have put sarcasm tags on everything, aren't I? Sorry, H ig hway Rainbow Sneakers 18:59, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

You probably are aware, though, that a lot of wikipedians would make that into a serious comment.-- The ikiroid  19:19, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Complaint about Esperanza member
Please pardon my intrusion but could not find where to file this complaint about Esperanza member. I read that E members have to be civil, but this user is being very uncivil and harrassing me and even has a link on his user pages to monitor my history. --Nikitchenko 19:15, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Stollery who claims membership of Esperanza has proven himself to be uncivil on several occasion to me and other users. Here is the most recent instance: Here are some past uncivil behavior: Judgmental tone in edit summaries: "...ridiculous assumption" Stollery vandalizes my talk page after I already warned him to use the mediation page for contacting me. I warned him not to vandalize my page and reminded him to use the mediation page and he left another uncivil comment --Nikitchenko 19:15, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * As the front page of Esperanza says:


 * Esperanza is a community of people. People are not perfect. While everyone who joins has agreed to try to abide by these ideals, in reality, people will make mistakes. If any Esperanza member makes a mistake, please let them know like you would any other user. Be understanding and do your best to add hope.


 * As well as, "Esperanza does not resolve user conflicts or POV issues, and will not accept requests to do so." Sorry, as an organization we cannot resolve this issue. Perhaps one of the individuals here will try to solve the situation, but they are not obligated to.  E WS23 | (Leave me a message!) 19:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * EWS23 is a member of Esperanza and it's charter also say "Esperanza members may be suspended for persistent and gross vandalism or violation of civility." --Nikitchenko 19:51, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, and for what it's worth, don't throw someone into the pool unless you're willing to swim with them. Skimming over the archives, it's pretty apparent that you shouldn't exactly be wearing white either. You can take your qualms to WP:ANI if you want a full review of the matter.-- The ikiroid  19:25, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * People are not perfect. and my mistake do not excuse violations of others. I love to swimming by the way :) --Nikitchenko 19:51, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think you are missing Ikiroid's point. H ig hway Rainbow Sneakers 19:52, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I get Ikiroid's point but do not agree. See my response to you below. --Nikitchenko 19:54, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * So you'll take the rip out of him instead? Have you ever heard of the expressions "The pot calling the kettle black" or "Six of one and half of a dozen"? You may want to look them up. Trying to humiliate and defy members who are trying to talk to you is no way to make us listen. H ig hway Rainbow Sneakers 20:12, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Aha, so now you make accusations that I humiliate and defy members. Please explain or else your statement maybe considered uncivil.  Please asnwered me below about: "Esperanza members may be suspended for persistent and gross vandalism or violation of civility" --Nikitchenko 20:17, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Just because he is part of Esperanza, doesn't mean by law he has to act like a nun. Esperanza in its simplest form is a promise, a promise to others to make their work, day and life easier here at Wikipedia. Sometimes members can break that promise on purpose or just other users are causing inadvertent aggro. So we aren't judge, jury and executioners when it comes to members acting up, we're not the Arb Com. But we'd like to ; ) H ig hway Rainbow Sneakers 19:44, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * What does "Esperanza members may be suspended for persistent and gross vandalism or violation of civility" mean to you? Esperanza waits for the arbcom to suspend membership in Esperanza? ; ) Please forgive me, but I find that very funny. --Nikitchenko 19:54, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * That sentence is probably obsolete. You are touching a sensitive issue here.  If you read the archives, you will learn that a "Code of Conduct" was proposed a month or so ago.  It was further proposed that all Esperanza members be required to adhere to the "Code of Conduct".  However, just as the "Code of Conduct" was about to be voted on, a big ruckus started and it appears that one of the issues was the overly rigid and hierarchical structure of Esperanza.  It is not clear what the future nature of Esperanza will be but, at the moment, there is no agreed-upon Code of Conduct nor is there any mechanism for removing members.


 * If you have a grievance with an Esperanza member, start by reminding him of Esperanza principles and ask him to abide by them. As noted above, it helps if you are also abiding by those principles.  If this doesn't work, use the standard Wikipedia mechanisms for dispute resolution.  Try the Mediation Cabal, the Mediation Board and finally ArbCom.


 * Good luck and happy editing.


 * --Richard 20:07, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * How can you claim it is probably obsolete when you are not even a member of Esperanza! The problem with Esperanza seems to be conflict of interest. Users who should not be members are easily accepted and problematic users never suspended.  --Nikitchenko 20:13, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Excuse me, but I am member number 336 (although the number can change over time since it is an alphabetical list). You had me worried for a minute.  I had to go check to make sure I was still recorded as a member.  I have been a member for over a month.  Not very long but long enough to know a little bit about Esperanza.


 * Look, at this moment in time, being a member of Esperanza is something akin to being a Buddhist. Buddhists are supposed to seek enlightenment and nirvana.  Some of them are less enlightened than others.  All Esperanzans are supposed to foster hope in the Wikipedia community.  But we currently don't have any clubs for beating on people who are less Esperanzan than others.  I'm sorry if the charter misled you.  It was written before the big blow-up and we were on our way to having an enforceable Code of Conduct except a bunch of people decided that they didn't really want to be members of a club that wielded a club over them.  (Excuse the pun.)


 * In any event, your desire to get User:Stollery booted out of Esperanzan is starting to sound like a vindictive attack rather than a real desire to get him/her back to being civil and Esperanzan.


 * If you really wish to resolve this dispute rather than simply pillory him/her for being uncivil, then I suggest you try the Mediation Cabal. I'm sort of a member (meaning I don't accept assignments but am willing to take on cases on a case-by-case basis).  I am officially volunteering to mediate between you and User:Stollery.  Do you accept?


 * --Richard 21:02, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * How can you claim anything about Esperanza if you're aren't even a member? H ig hway Rainbow Sneakers 20:26, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Because I read Esperanza charter which says "Esperanza members may be suspended for persistent and gross vandalism or violation of civility" and when I have problems with uncivil Esperanza member and complain you instead criticizing me with even borderline incivility from you. --Nikitchenko 20:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Well let's see, you made fun or Ikiroid, you probably breached WP:POINT, you criticized someone knowledgable of Esperanza as not being valid to talk about the subject, while you go on about it. And I think you've been told what to do at least twice by us, so why are you still continuing? I am not criticizing you, I am telling you not to mock the people who are trying to help you. H ig hway Rainbow Sneakers 20:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry Ikiroid and Highway Cello. I did not mean to cause disruption with my words. I said I like to swim because it is coincidence Ikiroid mention swimming and i am a swimmer. Thats all and I meant that I am already in mediation because of problems from Stollery and those supporting his POV about reliable source and their personal attacks. Thank you. --Nikitchenko 20:57, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Hey guys, lets take it down a notch. Nikitchenko, I'm sorry that you're in conflict with a user. As has been explained, Esperanza members are expected to uphold the values of Esperanza. Unfortunately, this does not mean that they have to. Esperanza is not a police force, we are just a group of people who want to make Wikipedia a friendlier place. As has also been mentioned, Esperanza is currently mid-process of working on a Code of Conduct to address issues of members who are acting against Esperanza values. I hope that you are able to work things out with the user; it will probably be helpful to bring up your greviences to the user on their talk page. They may not know that what they have done has caused so much conflict. -- Nataly a 20:55, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Natalya, thank you for your understanding and I get that Esperanza is working on a issue about problem members. --Nikitchenko 21:00, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

And don't worry about me, Chenko, it's hard for me to get offended by anything. I can understand how frusteration can hinder things.-- The ikiroid  21:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes and I did get your point thank you for making it. You did nothing wrong just trying to work out many issues i think. --Nikitchenko 21:05, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I just got back from your User talk page and noticed that you are already working with a mediator from the Mediation Cabal so my offer to mediate was made in ignorance. I wish good luck to you in the mediation.


 * And, thank you, Natalya for your calm and cool response which is more Esperanzan than some of the other responses that were posted. It gives us all a model to emulate.


 * --Richard 21:13, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

As a side note, Nikitchenko was just blocked forever for being a sockpuppet of a banned user.-- The ikiroid  20:56, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd just like to assume bad faith here and express my shock, horror and surprise at this outcome. And also to wish the nutjob chap all the best in his future endeavours, whichever planet they may be on. And on that note I'm off to listen to CP's taize on my iPod (yes, I put it on my iPod, say nothing) and to think good thoughts about the 5.9bn other potential good 'pedia contributors. ➨ ≡ Я Ξ  DVΞRS ≡ 21:06, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Proposed amendment to charter
Hmmm.... I was going to propose amending the charter to remove the bit about suspending members.

However, the charter is pretty vague on how to amend the charter. For example, it says that a referendum is required to amend the charter but it doesn't say anything about how to get a referendum called. All it says is "To propose amendments to this charter, Esperanzians should go to the Esperanza talk page." It doesn't say how to get the amendment voted on.

One approach would have been to require a majority vote of the Executive Board to approve a referendum on a question. Another approach would have been to call a vote of members on the referendum but that sounds a bit weird (a vote to call a vote?) Or, we could just say that any member can call a referendum at any time.

However, the charter is silent about this question so I am going to assume that any member can call a referendum at any time.

So... lacking any clarity on how to proceed, I'm would like to call a referendum on the following proposal:

Proposal: The following text will be added to the Esperanza charter. "A referendum can be called by any member of Esperanza. In order to pass, a quorum of 10% of Esperanza members must be met.  The quorum is established by the number of people voting.  Referenda will generally require a majority vote to pass unless the Executive Board rules otherwise.  Amendments to the charter require a 2/3 vote."

The rules for passing this referendum will be the ones stated in the proposed text.

Discussion
Note that this proposal means we need 10% of members to vote and 2/3 of those members to agree to an amendment to the charter. With over 400 active members, this means that we need 40 people to vote. I was going to propose 51% but that would have required over 200 votes. I suspect that 200 votes is is a very high hurdle to get over among Wikipedia editors. Before we put this to a vote, I'd like to hear discussion on the proposal and the general approach of calling a referendum just by posting to the Talk Page.

--Richard 20:29, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * You're proposing an amendment about an amendment? I'll support it, H ig hway Rainbow Sneakers 20:31, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Please support amendments because its rational, not just because a certain personality proposing it. --Nikitchenko 21:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * What? ➨ ≡ Я Ξ  DVΞRS ≡ 21:35, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't get it either. Nikitchenko, would you please explain? Thanks. -- You Know Who (Dark Mark)  21:51, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, my question too. May I bring up WP:BEANS? H ig hway Rainbow Sneakers 21:50, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Look at Highway's comment, he support an amendment just because Richard propose it instead of addressing the contents of a proposal. I think my statment is clear: Please support amendments because its rational, not just because a certain personality proposing it. (I didn't say anyhwere that Richards proposal is irrational...) --Nikitchenko 22:02, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Time for a cup of Taize, Nikitchenko. In other words, chill out.  I took Highway's comment as gently ribbing me for proposing an "amendment about making amendments".  It is funny if you think about it.  Unfortunately, due the laxity of the charter writers, this amendment is necessary so I appreciate his/her support.  Frankly, I don't care overly much about the wording of my amendment.  All I want is for us to agree on a procedure by which I can propose my real amendment which is to take out the bit about suspending members (at least until we decide to have an enforceable Code of Conduct).


 * It's important to set a procedure for passing amendments but that doesn't mean we can't have fun while we're fixing the leaky boat. I said it before in an earlier discussion... sometimes we take ourselves too seriously.


 * --Richard 22:29, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, and I don't really know him. But the idea is good, H ig hway Rainbow Sneakers 22:44, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

The last AC meeting considered something along the lines of "a change of the charter will require consensus, not a vote." (You can see the full log here, and it's about 4/5 of the way down.) We were to have a vote whether or not we needed a vote to change the charter. Perhaps we could throw that one on the ballot as well, and see whether that version or Richard's is the one with the most support.

One thought that I have about Richard's proposal, however, is that I feel there should be more support for an amendment than "A referendum can be called by any member of Esperanza." This would mean that any Esperanzan could call an endless barrage of votes in which the topic had absolutely zero support. So, maybe that should be expanded to, "A referendum can be called if five Esperanzans feel that the topic is vote-worthy." (Note: This could also extend to people who say, "I don't think this change should be made, but I DO feel a vote is in order to decide.")

Finally, sometimes this organization has gotten bogged down with votes and elections, which is one reason we were considering lengthening the terms that the AC serves. If we're going to have open referenda, I feel we should limit voting to once a month or once every two months, for fear that we could have simply too much bureaucracy. (Note that this argument could also be a good one for supporting the AC's idea back at their last meeting.) Anyway, that's all the thoughts I have for now (I know, way too many of them). Your comments would be appreciated. E WS23 | (Leave me a message!) 18:36, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Believe it or not, I thought about all that before I made my proposal. As I said, I'm not wedded to any one particular proposal so I am open to ideas.  However, let me share with you why I didn't propose something different.


 * At one extreme, we could say "a majority vote of the Esperanza Council is required to approve a referendum" but that would put a lot of power in the Advisory Council. A less extreme version would be to require that any one member of the Advisory Council can put a question to a vote via referendum.  Not a bad idea except the Advisory Council is currently on WikiBreak.


 * Then, there's the "five members can put a qustion to a vote via referendum". The only problem there is that, in order to find the five members, you'd have to post that question here to ask for five members.  By the time you get those five members, then the vote is pretty much underway already.  Unless you're saying that you can't put a question to a vote until you have gotten five members to agree via the User Talk pages.  That doesn't sound like fun since you'd probably have to ask more than five members via their talk pages.


 * --Richard 05:48, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry

 * Crossposted to Esperanza/Alerts.

I am slightly thinking about leaving this project due to WikiStress. I probably won't, but don't be VERY suprised if I do. My problems with this project are:

Not enough or too much contexts about "Controversy", such as private school, I have many problems with private schools from personal experience: Kids bully me because I can't afford the tuition and all clothes so I have to get hand-me-downs, (but the teachers don't do anything about it) my family need all the financial aide we can get, A boy physically attacked me, but he recieved an extremely light punishment, yet when I just said something mean to someone in an arguement, I got in BIG trouble. (this all promotes my real life stress).

Cyde: Cyde proposed a ton of UBXs for deletion (and actually deleted some) that I had on my userpage for deletion, without notifing me. The userbox war may claim me...

Those reasons are worse than you think when you are in my world. I'll probably stay, although please reply to me on my talk page. Thank you. Raichu 16:30, 27 May 2006 (UTC) `
 * Please stay, I know any type of edit war is tough, but things will be better in the long run. They're planning on making a new namespace for it, and no more will be deleted unless they're sectarian/racist etc. If you must leave it's your decision, but we wish you wouldn't. Regards, H ig hway Rainbow Sneakers 17:20, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Advisory Council
I've been wondering for quite a while about something, something which I should have asked a long while ago, about the Advisory Council, what do the members actually do? I know that they go to the IRC meetings and pretend to make an impact on the rest of us (I joke) but do they do anything else? I ask because I don't have IRC and I don't plan to, so I was wondering if there was a pointing for standing in the next election. Cheers, H ig hway Rainbow Sneakers 20:41, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * That all depends on if there's a next election at all. Big things may be happening to Esperanza. Watch this space. --Cel es tianpower háblame 22:02, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well thanks for being vague. Ugh, I am starting to hate the public resentment I get a wikipedia, I get it at school. H ig hway Rainbow Sneakers 22:04, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * From me? Sorry for being vague - I can't be anything other since nothing has been discussed, nothing planned, nothing designed, nothing even thought out. However, if the current system is kept, I would rather have people who are on IRC on my council but it isn't a prerequisite. --Cel es tianpower háblame 22:14, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry for snapping, I'm not feeling great, (see Esperanza/Alerts) H ig hway Rainbow Sneakers 22:18, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps some attention to wording might help here; you do realize how comments like "if there's a next election at all" sound when coming from someone in your position? ;-) Kirill Lokshin 22:21, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * (coughs) Animal Farm!! H ig hway Rainbow Sneakers 22:23, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Wat the Advisory Council does is advising the Admin General on 'running' Esperanza. The main part of that advising is done in (logged) IRC meetings, where the Advisory Council represent the Esperanza members, as they are (like the Admin General) elected by those members. Anyway, it has been regarded as 'the AC wants to control us' - which is far from true. We did see some problems occuring though, and we wanted to do something about that. At the time, the code of conduct seemed like a step in the right direction, but apparently that was not the right step to take. For me personally, these are very busy months (real life stuff) so this AC wikibreak is starting to be longer than I planned. There's however no way that that means that we'll 'outstay' our term on the AC, so whatever the new plans may be, we will have to work on them, and propose them to the community, soon. --JoanneB 10:31, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the informational update, JoanneB. I'm know you guys are working for the best of Esperanza. :) -- Nataly a  13:28, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

WikiStress
I've been experiencing repeated WikiStress from the same user over deletions of my text on the grounds of being unsourced. For explanation of the problem, see the section titled "Citing sources: The theory and the reality" in Wikipedia talk:Citing sources. I'd like to hear your thoughts on what I wrote there. Thanx.

--Richard 05:53, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I can imagine how having your text deleted over and over again can be extremely frustrating... I have read the e-mail from Jimbo that people are referring to, and I must admit I have referred to it myself - I've even deleted information because of it. However, I think there's a big difference between unsourced information that could potentially be harmful and stuff that is unsourced but generally seen as true. The latter should (in my opinion) be treated with patience and respect towards the editor - tag it, leave a message on the editor's talk page or find a source yourself. Stuff that's unsourced and quite possibly untrue, especially in biographies, can be a whole different story, in many of those cases deletion is to be preferred over tagging. I think (although I'm not 100% sure) that that's the kind of cases Jimbo was referring to, as he deals with complaints about that kind of unsourced information daily. There's also a difference between the way you edit (from knowledge, being sensible to POV issues) and the way and background from which many people edit those biographies. Sadly, the latter group has led to a 'when in doubt, throw it out' kind of thinking, which does not really motivate people like you who have spent time and genuine efforts on improving an article... --JoanneB 10:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, JoanneB, I've been trying to be restrained and not do anything that smacks of retaliation but I have to say that even thinking of retaliation is a sign of Wikistress. Kind of like road rage.  If you're even mad at someone, it suggests that you're wound up too tight even if you don't actually do anything.  I just needed a way to vent as a way of cooling off.  Thanks for your good words.


 * --Richard 18:46, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Blow up Noel Edmonds? ; ) H ig hway Rainbow Sneakers 08:30, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Huh? I think this is an attempt at humor but it's lost on me.  Translation, please.
 * --Richard 21:17, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The man that created Mr. Blobby! They threw him off television for a decade and gunged him for such a heinous crime. H ig hway Rainbow Sneakers 21:34, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

1028
Hi. I just saw that 1028 has been blocked indefinitely. I was going to take his name down from the actve members list, but I don't know where to put it. Inactive or Former members? Seeing as he is banned indefiniely, I would think inactive, but I wondered if a more experienced esperanzian knew what to do. Thank you. Th e  Halo (talk) 19:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Personally, I'd say just remove him altogether. My personal opinion is that in those other two categories, people should only be there because they listed their username there themselves. But if his name should go anywhere, it would be in the former members list. In my opinion, this users behaviour has been such that he's not an 'inactive' member, because with this kind of behaviour, one should not be a member at all. --JoanneB 19:49, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I can see your point of view, and I agree with it, but for the sake of historical accuracy, I'll go and put 1028 on the former members list. We really need some sort of policy to tackle the 'esperanzians' who behave in an inappropriate manor. Do you know when the wikibreak is over (because the council say all new policy will be put on hold)? I don't have IRC, so I can't look at the discussion. Th e  Halo (talk) 20:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Admin coaching bandwidth is too narrow to support demand
Please see my entry in Wikipedia talk:Esperanza/Programs/Admin coaching with the same subject as this posting. Your comments would be appreciated on User:Richardshusr/So you want to be an admin.

--Richard 21:15, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Freakofnurture
Freakofnurture is the meanest editor I've seen on wikipedia, self-described as a dick, angry and a judeofacist. I considered contributing to this project a few times but was reminded it is mostly a playground for this type of person. I just happened upon this Esperanza group when looking for wikipedia community related stuff and when I saw his name on the main page I thought it might mean the group was a joke.--69.60.118.148 14:43, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry that you got that impression of him. Please remember that several things in communication, like humour, come across differently online, since non-verbal clues are missing (if he's grinning while typing something, you won't see it like you would when he was talking to you). Freakofnurture is a member of the Advisory Council, which means that during the elections, a while ago, he was elected by other Esperanza members. Apparently, they thought that he would benefit Esperanza and Wikipedia in that position. Perhaps they saw something in him that you haven't seen yet? Esperanza members and Advisory Council members are not perfect because they're members. They'll make mistakes. That does not mean Esperanza is a joke though, and I sincerely hope that in the near future you'll see things from Freakofnurture or others that convince you of that fact :) Kind regards, --JoanneB 16:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I think he's okay. H ig hway Rainbow Sneakers 16:20, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Freakofnurture is one of Wikipedia's most experienced and well-respected editors. If you, 69.60.118.148, have an issue with something Freakofnurture (or any other editor) has or hasn't done, the first place to take your problem is that editor's talk page. Calmly and rationally, without accusation or exaggeration, ask them to clarify the thing you dislike. A good editor will always reply to a calm and rational request for clarification. You'll usually find a Wikipedia rule, guideline or precedent is driving their actions - and if so, your issue is with the rule in question, not the editor enforcing it. You can change any rule on Wikipedia - find the page and propose the change. If a consensus develops to change the rule, it will be changed. Then editors will enforce the new rule instead, as simple as that. If that fails and you genuinely want further action, Esperanza isn't the place to do it, and nobody will listen to you until you log in to your account. Your IP address shows one edit, this one here, suggesting that you're an account holder who's making trouble rather than genuinely commenting... sorry, but people automatically assume bad faith about anonymous editors, especially when they appear with complaints when they have no other edits. Log in and then take advantage of the myriad of ways Wikipedia has for mediating complaints besides bitching about them! :) ➨  Я Є  DVERS  20:43, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Long live
Long live Wikipedia! Long Live Esperanza!! By the way, the absence has become too long? --Bhadani 10:24, 3 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm sure the absence will end when the time is right (that phrasing sounds a bit cliche, no?) - in the meantime, keep up your excited spirit! -- Nataly a 14:02, 3 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Or when their terms run out ;-) Kirill Lokshin 14:07, 3 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Or, when somebody realizes that the charter doesn't provide for the Advisory Council to take a wikibreak. (Admittedly, it doesn't prohibit it either).  There's nothing (as far as I can tell) to prevent someone from declaring that the Council is, in effect, sedevacante and call for a new election.  It's not provided for in the charter but it's not prohibited in the charter either.  (Gives you new respect for the writers of any constitution, eh?)


 * I wouldn't support such a coup d'etat for a "few weeks Wikibreak" but once the Wikibreak extends past a month, I would start giving this option some serious consideration. The people are revolting!  Wikipedia editors are even more so.


 * Of course, the counter-argument is that maybe Esperanza would benefit from a period of "benign neglect".


 * --Richard 16:21, 3 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Oops, I forgot about the Admin General. I was reminded of that position when I just re-read this bit from JoanneB "What the Advisory Council does is advising the Admin General on 'running' Esperanza."  Well, if this is true, the real question to ask would be "Is the Admin General on Wikibreak, too?"  If not, it would be his (her?) call to determine whether the AC is just resting or have, in fact, abdicated their positions and whether or not to call new elections.  OTOH, if the Admin General is also on Wikibreak, then that leaves the door open to declare sedevacante.


 * --Richard 16:29, 3 June 2006 (UTC)


 * [[Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg|100px|thumb|left|Wiki-Anarchy!]] LOL! The admin general doesn't seem to be on a wikibreak, at least it doesn't say he is on his page. Th e  Halo (talk) 15:30, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Nice use of Paint! <b style="color:green;">K</b>ilo-Lima|<sup style="color:orange;">(talk) 15:56, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks!! Th e  Halo (talk) 17:08, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Seeking help - I'm losing my focus as a Wikipedian!


Please click the above link, read the discussion, and respond there. Thanks. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 04:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I need help!
Somebody has been repeatedly adding sometimes-profane nonsense to my watchlist. I need help, but don't know where to look for it. Here are three that I removed just today:

Wikipedia IS COMMUNISM (Talk)

‎Wikipedia IS COMMUNISM 12.0 (Talk)

‎Wikipedia IS COMMUNISM 1254.0 (Talk)

Is this the work of the famed Wikipedia is Communism vandal? Should I change usernames? Help! ЄИЄЯפЇЄ 03:02, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * No, someone moved Wikipedia to Wikipedia IS COMMUNISM, which was promptly reverted, but left the redirect as residue in your watchlist. Just delete them from your watchlist. Tito xd (?!?) 03:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)