Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Cloud (video game)/archive1

Resolved comments from H3llkn0wz

 * Lead should emphasize this is an indie game, not mainstream or AAA, or anything like that. Although it says "team of students", we shouldn't assume the reader will guess. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 10:40, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Added indie. -- Pres N  17:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Lead; Would it be preferable to mention development in first paragraph; then in second describe gameplay/plot; and leave the last for reception? Just seems a more natural approach to keep release/plot/reception separate. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK
 * I feel like that would stretch the lead out too much- a 3 para lead for a 7 para article seems excessive. -- Pres N  17:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * What I meant is this:


 * Cloud is a 2005 indie puzzle video game developed by a team of students in the University of Southern California's (USC) Interactive Media Program. The team began development of Cloud in January 2005 with a US$20,000 grant from the USC; the game was released as a free download that October. By July 2006, the hosting website had received 6 million visits, and the game had been downloaded 600,000 times.


 * The game centers on a boy who dreams of flying while asleep in a hospital bed. The concept was partially based on lead designer Jenova Chen's childhood; he was often hospitalized for asthma and would daydream while alone in his room. Assuming the role of the boy, the player flies through a dream world and manipulates clouds to solve puzzles.


 * Cloud won the Best Student Philosophy award at the 2006 Slamdance Guerilla Games Competition, and a Student Showcase award at the 2006 Independent Games Festival. The game was well received by critics, who cited its visuals, music, and relaxing atmosphere as high points. Chen and producer Kellee Santiago went on to co-found the studio Thatgamecompany, which has considered remaking Cloud as a commercial video game.


 * versus


 * Cloud is a 2005 indie puzzle video game developed by a team of students in the University of Southern California's (USC) Interactive Media Program. The game centers on a boy who dreams of flying while asleep in a hospital bed. The concept was partially based on lead designer Jenova Chen's childhood; he was often hospitalized for asthma and would daydream while alone in his room. Assuming the role of the boy, the player flies through a dream world and manipulates clouds to solve puzzles.


 * The team began development of Cloud in January 2005 with a US$20,000 grant from the USC; the game was released as a free download that October. By July 2006, the hosting website had received 6 million visits, and the game had been downloaded 600,000 times. Cloud won the Best Student Philosophy award at the 2006 Slamdance Guerilla Games Competition, and a Student Showcase award at the 2006 Independent Games Festival. The game was well received by critics, who cited its visuals, music, and relaxing atmosphere as high points. Chen and producer Kellee Santiago went on to co-found the studio Thatgamecompany, which has considered remaking Cloud as a commercial video game.


 * I don't think it's a big stretch, but I'll leave it at your discretion. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 15:43, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't like to have three paras of 3 sentences each, but I do like the order of yours better. Combined your first two paras, but other than that went with your model. -- Pres N  17:25, 28 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Lead; "producer Kellee Santiago" -- producer should probably be wikilinked as video game producer, if that is what it means. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK
 * Linked. -- Pres N  17:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Gameplay; "..gathering of clouds above them." huh? :) "..cloud cover."? — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK
 * Cloud cover doesn't, to me at least, have the connotations of a group of scattered clouds. -- Pres N  17:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I see what you mean. Perhaps then the redundant "above them" is not necessary? After all, clouds being "above" is implied the same way island implies surfacing above water. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 15:43, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Good point, done. -- Pres N  17:25, 28 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Gameplay; I have not often seen avatar (computing) linked before; player character is what is usually linked. I am just used to seeing "player"/"character" instead of "avatar" in gameplay. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK
 * Linked to Player character, but kept avatar- I'm using the term because the boy is still in the hospital bed, this is the dream version of him. -- Pres N  17:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 15:43, 28 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Gameplay; "White clouds stop following the avatar if the player maneuvers him too quickly" to "White clouds stop following the player if he moves too quickly" -- plain English. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK
 * Done. -- Pres N  17:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Gameplay: "connection is re-established" -- awkward wording implying the reader assumes clouds following is "connection" and the state of them following can be "established". — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK
 * Done. -- Pres N  17:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Gameplay; "more easily overpowers" -- more than what? "more" should probably be omitted. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK
 * added a "than" instead. -- Pres N  17:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Development; second occurrence of "US$20,000" doesn't need "US" prefix. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK
 * Done, though I'm unsure about that. -- Pres N  17:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * MOS:CURRENCY "Use the full abbreviation of a currency on its first appearance (e.g. A$52); subsequent occurrences can use just the symbol of the currency (e.g. $88), unless this would be unclear." — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 15:43, 28 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Development; "It began development in January 2005 and was released in late October; it received its final update in December" -- "was released in late October receiving its final update.." -- better flow (I think). — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 11:03, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. -- Pres N  17:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Development; "composer Vincent Diamante, and producer Kellee Santiago." you hadn't used serial comma before in "who cited its visuals, music and relaxing atmosphere as high points" — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK
 * Added the serial comma to the first use. :) -- Pres N  17:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Development; "the game was not made for a specific class" this appears very suddenly (unexpectedly). May be move this to the first sentence? — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK
 * Moved. -- Pres N  17:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

I would rewrite it to something like "The idea for the game was partially based on Chen's childhood experience, as he was often hospitalized.." to keep it simple. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK
 * Development; "based by Chen on himself; as a child, he" quite amazing how this manages to refer to Chen 4 times in different ways :)
 * Done. -- Pres N  17:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Development; "to "expand the spectrum of emotions video games evoke". " -- WP:LQ period inside quote. Same for "to "create the premise and help player to be emotionally invested"; " — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK
 * Did the first one, but not the second- the rule is that you put a comma in the quote where there would be a period if it's not the end of your sentence, but what about if you're using a semicolon? Looked weird with that inside. -- Pres N  17:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 15:43, 28 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Development; "story too strong" -- technically, story cannot be "strong". But I guess it's a minor nitpick and I cannot think of anything better either. Feel free to ignore this one. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK
 * Will do. -- Pres N  17:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Development; ""a simple 'poetic' introduction to the cloud child trapped in a hospital bed"." I guess this is a full clause but not a full sentence; not sure if the period goes in or out. I would place it inside since the sentence ends there. Same for next one. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK
 * Done. -- Pres N  17:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Development; "engine" should probably spell out "game engine"; general reader shouldn't be assumed to know of VG terms. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK
 * Done. -- Pres N  17:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Development; "members of the team" -> "team members" — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK
 * Done. -- Pres N  17:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Development; "developed by several members of the team for a previous game, Dyadin." -- "their previous game" to make it clear this is their own separate project, not related to this. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK
 * Done. -- Pres N  17:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Development; "At a Game Developers Conference student showcase" -- which year? — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK
 * Done. -- Pres N  17:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Development; "pitched" could be linked to "sales pitch"? It is a common word, but it has several meanings; although clear in context here. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK
 * I think it's common enough, and that there's enough context here to make it clear they didn't literally throw it at him. -- Pres N  17:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 15:43, 28 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Infobox; There was a discussion for the VG template's individual fields some time ago, although not very conclusive. But 7 people for "developer" field is most likely not the best layout. The developer is a "team of students from USC IMP" (but obviously unsuitable for the infobox). The (lead) designer is Chen. I have no clear idea how this would work though... — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 11:22, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, that discussion was about not listing the specific roles that people had in the infobox- I'm not (Chen doesn't say lead designer, Santiago doesn't say Producer, etc.) They all helped design/create the game, so to cut it off short of the full seven seems to be disingenuous. I don't think it's too long as it is. -- Pres N  17:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I couldn't think of anything better either. IAR. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 15:43, 28 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Replied inline. -- Pres N  17:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Gameplay: "The player assumes control of the boy" -- technically, the player assumes control of boy's projection in his dream (but may be I've just been watching Inception too much). — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 15:43, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Changed. -- Pres N  17:25, 28 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Reception: "at the Slamdance Guerrilla Games Competition and a Student Showcase award at the" -- and can be left out, since you use another and after the second item. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 15:43, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Fixed. -- Pres N  17:25, 28 March 2011 (UTC)


 * References: You should mention the page number; besides Wayback only archived page 1. Or you could just link to printable. —  HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 15:43, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Seriously? oh, Wayback Machine... switched to a Webcite of the printable page. -- Pres N  17:25, 28 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Reception: I don't see the quote "everything about Cloud is simply jaw-dropping" in the source. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 15:43, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Second page, second-to-last paragraph- "Everything about Cloud is simply jaw-dropping. The music. The artwork, both in-game and between levels. The vista, as you're flying free through the sky, high over islands that dot the sea. The controls are unique and startlingly intuitive (play the first few levels for tutorials, and hit F1 at any time for help)." -- Pres N  17:25, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, page 2! Shouldn't you link to the second page then since the actual info on the game is there? — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 21:59, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
 * No, I really prefer to link to the start of the article if it's not too long- the same way that linking to a pdf starts you on page one. If it's buried in there I would provide a page number, but the article mentions Cloud on the first page and then has a whole heading section devoted to it on the second, so I didn't think it was hard to find. -- Pres N  20:07, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't you at least use 2? — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 08:42, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. -- Pres N  17:56, 30 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Image: "A screenshot of the boy in the 3D flight mode" -- may be just "A screenshot of the boy flying in the sky." or something to avoid linking 3D or explaining first use of "flight mode". — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 08:42, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. -- Pres N  17:56, 30 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Infobox: Is there no genre to link this to? May be action game? — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 08:42, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. -- Pres N  17:56, 30 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Infobox: "Single-player" not "Single player". — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 08:42, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. -- Pres N  17:56, 30 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Gameplay "White clouds stop following the avatar if the player moves too quickly; they resume following if approached again." -- "White clouds stop following the avatar if the player moves too quickly and they resume following if approached again." -- better flow; semicolon is not always useful and in closely related clauses conjunctions are usually better. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 08:42, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. -- Pres N  17:56, 30 March 2011 (UTC)