Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Hurricane Gert (1993)/archive1

Spanish language sources
I'm on a slow connection, so for now, just working with the first Spanish language source: Presumably, you’ve listed the publisher as the Mexican Secretary of the Interior because the report is hosted at CENAPRED. Might it be more helpful to say, CENAPRED (with a link), Secretary of the Interior (Mexico)-- that is, be more specific, since Secretary of the Interior covers a lot of territory? But there's more ... Frustratingly, http://geografica.cenapred.unam.mx takes me nowhere (is that my slow connection)? I'm trying to determine who wrote the report, and whether CENAPRED is merely hosting it. What is UNAM? Who are SEGOB, Direccion Civil Mexico, Direccion de adminstracion de emergencias, etc listed on the actual report? Are they all part of CENAPRED, or something else? It looks like someone other than CENAPRED wrote the report. Since I can’t follow the link back, I'm unsure what I'm getting in these cases, but my suggestion is that, if the case is that CENAPRED is merely hosting reports written by others, you can add a work parameter indicating the entity that actually wrote the report. This is one example—I'm on a slow connection, don't have accent marks on this keyboard, and am unsure if the problem in not being able to pull up the root URL is due to my connection, so I'll wait for more feedback from you before continuing with other examples. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 15:56, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Separately, it's irritating as all heck that many of these PDFs contain no publication date, so we have no idea how relevant or current the information is, and no date that would help future editors recover dead links-- I can't find a date on this particular PDF, but could you be sure to check the others as you look at them? Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 16:00, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The document mentioned above was "last modified" on 27 March 2009.  HurricaneFan 25  16:01, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not necessary to ping my talk (which is currently hosting some sort of cagematch I'm not following)-- I have this FAC watchlisted. That helps although you had to take a long route to find it.  When dates are available, they should be added (they aid in locating info if links go dead and in knowing how relevant the publication is), but I'm still unclear why I'm unable to follow links back (could be my slow connection), and who UNAM is.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 16:07, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It's a completely content-free page — it's blank.  HurricaneFan 25  16:08, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * UNAM is presumably the Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México. Ucucha (talk) 16:13, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * (after ec with Ucucha) OK, same here ... so here's what's confusing me about many of these sources. As far as I can tell, UNAM is Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México. That makes it seem unlikely that CENAPRED published the report, and likely that they are only hosting it. That's what I found on all these sources. Who actually wrote the report, is CENAPRED only accessing them via a University database, and are they hosting copyvios (which we shouldn't link to per WP:EL)-- tracking down that would be a mess-- do they have copyright permission to host these PDFs? More importantly, in all of these cases, who actually wrote the reports vs. who is hosting them-- list the author under Work, and the webhost under Publisher, or some similar scheme, to give future editors and readers a better chance of finding them, and reviewers here a better indication of reliability and copyvio status. (In one of the citations further down the page that I hit on yesterday, my concern was that the host had put up something that looked like a student publication, hence the concern to correctly identify who wrote the report-- separately from who hoste it-- for reliability).  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 16:26, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That url shows as blank because the official "homepage" for the site is located here (odd, I know). Just throwing this out here: whenever dates are available, I do add them. I also hate not having dates for published sources, but some just don't have any listed anywhere. I did go per your suggestion to use the work and publisher parameters. As for the copyvios, I frankly have no idea how to deal with what you're asking, sadly... I thank you for your patience and diligence on this matter, though, Sandy Auree    ★  16:31, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm out of editing time for today, so will check your work later. If Elcobbola were still around, he would know copyright law in Mexico ... other than that, I'm not sure who we might ping for a check on that, so I'm disinclined to worry about that right now, but as you all have time, you should probably track that down.  More tomorrow ... Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 16:36, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Back with time to look at a few more. The second Spanish-language citation looks complete now (date, location, and publisher), but I see an inconsistency in how you are indicating locations: For consistency, the location should be either in parentheses as the first, as with a colon as the second. I guess you haven't had time yet to follow up on the first CENAPRED citation? Sandy Georgia (Talk) 15:25, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * (Spanish) "Sistema de Alerta Temprana para Ciclones Tropicales" (PDF). Secretary of the Interior (Mexico). p. 21. http://geografica.cenapred.unam.mx/DocumentosSIAT/SIAT_CT.pdf. Retrieved 2011-11-14.
 * (Spanish) "Informe de operaciónes Tormenta Gert" (PDF). Costa Rica: Comisión Nacional de Prevención de Riesgos y Atención de Emergencias. 1993-09-18. pp. 3, 4, 8, 10, 16. http://www.cne.go.cr/CEDO-CRID/pdf/spa/doc53/doc53-3a.pdf. Retrieved 2011-10-07.
 * Fixed the inconsistency (the (Mexico) was part of the wikilink) and added CENAPRED to the publisher. I'll also try to look more into that one, as you listed a few other problems. Auree    ★  17:23, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

I can't tell what's going on with this one: It indicates a Spanish-language source, but gives a title in English. It lists the publisher as Epic-Force, but it's hosted on a Universidad Nacional Costa Rica website. It looks like the article title is listed incorrectly. It also looks like this was a conference paper, which means it should be cited differently (we have a cite template for papers).
 * Fallas, Jorge; Valverde, Carmen (2005). "Evidence-based Policy for Integrated Control of Forested River Catchments in Extreme Rainfall and Snowmelt" (PDF). Epic-Force. p. 20. http://www.una.ac.cr/redibec-cisda/ponencias/Climaticos/Jorge.pdf. Retrieved 2011-10-08.
 * Fixed the title and publisher issue. Should I add a work parameter, and what would go under it? I'm not too sure which template I should use (cite conference?) Auree    ★  17:23, 18 November 2011 (UTC)


 * ecapra.org appears to be a Wiki-- is it reliable?
 * The source seems reliable, but assessing reliability of non-newspaper sources isn't my strongest point Auree    ★  17:23, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Edit - Per WP:EL: "[Avoid] links to open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors. Mirrors or forks of Wikipedia should not be linked." ecapra.org's homepage leads me to believe that it does fall under the exceptions. I'm still not too comfortable making a call on this, though. Auree    ★  17:42, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * What is the text it's citing? This one should be called to Nikkimaria's attention, along with the text it's citing (sorry, I haven't got time to look right now, in case someone else can get to it).  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 20:08, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * From what I can tell, the specific page being cited isn't wiki-produced, but was uploaded to the wiki from some other source. Though I can't read Spanish, from what I can tell it was produced by a working group of topic specialists (per page 3). Given that, I would view the wiki link as a convenience link to the actual document, and accepted it as such. Does that help? Nikkimaria (talk) 22:13, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, it does. Thanks for dropping by, Nikkimaria Auree    ★  22:18, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the delays, I'm a bit frustrated here and would like to get this wrapped up :) The cite in question is:
 * and it is being used to cite hard data. Ecapra is definitely a Wiki, and I don't see that it has any editorial oversight that would establish it (per se) as a reliable source-- can you provide more info that addresses that?  If they have the rights to republish the document, then it should be listed as a convenience link only (I do that by adding an "available on so-and-so" note after the citation), so that the next time we see a FAC using it, we'll know to check for reliability (the idea here is to clean up citation methods for this and fugure hurricane FACs).  Next, if the specific document cited is from a separate working group, we get into more of the same issues.  The link says it's an image-- I can't download it, so I don't know what it is.  Does the Wiki have rights to republish it (copyvio)?  If not, we shouldn't be linking to it.  Who is the original publisher?  Nothing listed in the citation gives me any clue, and since the PDF won't load for me, I can't address any of these questions.  Perhaps I have a bad link-- I'm getting a PDF message that the file is damaged and could not be repaired, and I can't figure out how something like the listed author could be an "author"-- generally I'm frustrated at how the citations are written in this article and hope we can get these kinds of things cleaned up for future FACs.  I'd like to help out more because of the Spanish language issue, but the link doesn't work for me.  If you can locate another source for the same data, that might be a faster way to fix that one.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 19:50, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I've asked others to see if it works, and it did. I'm not sure what could be the problem, as it works for me as well... Auree    ★  20:48, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I've asked others to see if it works, and it did. I'm not sure what could be the problem, as it works for me as well... Auree    ★  20:48, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

More later, once you've had a chance to work on these. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 15:38, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

There's an inconsistency in this link, which takes us nowhere related to the article cited:

(Spanish) Ramírez, Mario G. (2006-10-01). "Trayectorias históricas de los ciclones tropicales que impactaron el estado de Veracruz de 1930 al 2005". Scripta Nova (University of Barcelona) 10 (218). http://gulib.georgetown.edu/newjour/s/msg03614.html. Retrieved 2011-11-06. Is that because it's subscription only and one has to be logged on? Why georgetown.edu, then Barcelona? Sandy Georgia (Talk) 15:44, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Added the correct link for this, sorry about that. Auree    ★  17:30, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

My frustration with this article's citation extends to the English-language sources as well, examples: Dartmouth is a big place-- that page seems to be from the Dartmouth Flood Observatory-- which makes it different than some student paper, hopefully. Our readers need to know where to find these things if links go dead, and we need to know if they are reliable-- something published by the generic dartmouth.edu could be a student paper. Then there's something from The Econonomist Intelligence Unit, a link to a google book that goes nowhere, and a publisher indicates as "The Unit"-- what is that google link, and is that published by The Economist or not? And I don't understand why non-authors are listed in the author field. Generally, we need a more professional standard of sourcing here, and if Titoxd isn't able to help out, I suggest pinging in, who is good at this sort of work. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 20:08, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * 1993 Global Register of Extreme Flood Events". Dartmouth College. July 2003. http://www.dartmouth.edu/~floods/Archives/1993sum.htm. Retrieved 2011-10-27.
 * I've fixed the Dartmouth publisher. The Google book link works perfectly fine for me. Here's the bibliographic information:
 * Title	Country report: Nicaragua, Honduras
 * Author	Economist Intelligence Unit (Great Britain)
 * Publisher	The Unit, 1994
 * Original from	the University of California
 * Digitized	Jun 30, 2008
 * And I'm sorry if this all is frustrating to you. That was never my intention. Auree    ★  20:42, 19 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I just got my ping for this. I did up to citation 29 on this run through.  Generally you need to master the concept of Author, Work and Publisher better.  Let's say that Tom Juarez is identified as the author of the report "Hurricanes!  Terror!" which was never published in a book, but published online by his science unit, "Darlington Hurricane Study Centre" which was part of the "Australian Weather Department" but run out of "University of West Wyalong".  The publisher is Darlington Hurricane Study Centre, Australian Weather Department.  The work is blank: it wasn't published compiled in another work.  The title, is of course, "Hurricanes!  Terror!".  It also pays to navigate around in the directories, and in the website, of the organisation you're citing.  That's how I found the missing conference title, and the date for Osorio, Jose L.  You also need to remember that you're writing for an international English speaking public, that we don't naturally know that this or that hurricane department is part of the US government, any more than we know the entrails of Salvadorean meteorological bureaucracy.  When citing organisations titles and names, use their original language, "Universidad Nacional" not "National University"; provide translations afterwards if an average University educated English Speaker would need a translation like so "Universidad Nacional New Zealand [New Zealand National University]".  Your citations are good, but they need to be improved for FAC standards, and can easily be improved! Fifelfoo (talk) 11:39, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Throughout: "Mexico: CENAPRED, Secretary of the Interior." yet not "United States: Hydrometeorological Prediction Center, National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration." ?
 * What would be better? To include the locations of all citations or none at all? Auree    ★  15:28, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Throughout: Dubious italicisation of a government instrumentality name, is CENAPRED really a |work=, or is it merely part of the publisher title. You need to work this out, especially as : (Spanish) Gutiérrez, Prisciliano H.; Jiménez, Elias M.; de la Fuente, Rigoberto M.; Mendiola, Rubén Dario S.. "Las inundaciones causadas por el Huracan "Gert" sus efectos en Hidalgo, San Luis Potosí, Tamaulipas y Veracruz" (PDF). Centro Nacional de Prevención de Desastres (CENAPRED). Mexico: Centro Regional de Información sobre Desastres (CRID). p. 1. Retrieved 2011-10-26.
 * This was proposed to me by Sandy. At first, I had just Cenapred as the publisher, so I'm not too sure what to do with CRID (which hosts the document published by CENAPRED). Auree    ★  15:28, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Really, from National University of Costa Rica (who appear to be actually Universidad Nacional Costa Rica)... it seems instead to be from this conference as a conference paper? http://www.una.ac.cr/redibec-cisda/ponencias2008.html;   (Spanish) Fallas, Jorge; Valverde, Carmen (2005). "Aplicación de ENOS como indicador de cambios en la precipitación máxima diaria en la cuenca del río Pejibaye y su impacto en inundaciones" (PDF). National University of Costa Rica. p. 20. Retrieved 2011-10-08.
 * Should I be using a different template?


 * "Central American Probabilistic Risk Assessment" appears to be "Evaluación de Riesgos Naturales - América Latina - Consultores en Riesgos y Desastres"
 * Yes! The organisation is done perfectly correctly, and so would the citation, if there were a page five (it starts at page 29), also and if you said it was from 1994 (see: Portada, http://desastres.usac.edu.gt/documentos/pdf/spa/doc7149/doc7149.htm) : (Spanish) Osorio, Jose L. "Impactos de los desastres naturales en Nicaragua" (PDF). Nicaragua: Biblioteca Virtual en Salud y Desastres Guatemala. p. 5. Retrieved 2011-10-31.
 * Fixed this. Auree    ★  15:28, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you so much for this! I'll take notes for future reference. Auree   ★  15:28, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Auree, this is Fifelfoo's area of expertise, so anywhere that his suggestions differ from mine, he rules-- I was frustrated at seeing our readers didn't have enough info to locate the sources, but he knows how to do it right. His feedback will help for future hurricane FACs-- I'll unwatch now, but pls ping me should my feedback be needed (since you also speak Spanish, I assume I'm not needed here now :)  Fifelfoo, if you wouldn't mind, could you make a note to yourself to check future hurricane FACs?  There has long been a problem in the area of author, title, publisher, gov't entities, etc.  Best, Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 17:35, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

References, Citations, Sourcing
As promised, I decided to "work" this article. For each source I checked the citation against the actual document or a catalogue record of the document. Hopefully this can help hurricane project editors! Lets go! Fifelfoo (talk) 01:31, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Example
 * Wikipedia:
 * Actual:
 * Issues:
 * Error wikicode:
 * rendered
 * Fixed wikicode:
 * rendered

Ref 1: Reports are a fundamentally different type of document to Journal Articles, Web Pages, Books, etc. Reports are issued by an authority (National Hurricane Centre) and are "unpublished" in the sense that they don't have an ISSN ISBN etc. (though some "unpublished reports" do have an ISSN, tricky). This is "unpublished" in the sense of a traditional publisher. For wikipedia verification purposes they are "published" in the sense of "made public and available for consultation".
 * Wikipedia: Pasch, Richard J. (1993-11-10). "Preliminary Report Hurricane Gert - 14-21 September 1993". National Hurricane Center. Retrieved 2011-10-03.
 * Actual: Pasch, Richard J. (1993-11-10). Preliminary Report Hurricane Gert: 14-21 September 1993 (Report). USA: National Hurricane Center. Retrieved 2011-10-03.
 * Issues: Cite web used when the object is a report. Dash instead of colon on subtitle.  Between a Title and Subtitle there's a colon, not a dash.  Location of the publisher (Estados Unidos).
 * Error wikicode:
 * Fixed wikicode:
 * BTW, it should be "Miami Florida", not "USA". ;)  HurricaneFan 25  01:35, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * In the case of this article, the author has been using the format Country for locations. I am very happy to increase the quality of citations, but normally as a FAC reviewer all I can demand is consistency.  I'm taking this as a case where I ought to become a controversial CITEVAR editor, except for the fact that article editors agree with me doing this. :) Fifelfoo (talk) 01:40, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Final Fixed wikicode:
 * More issues: See Ref 4 below. Re |at= with unnumbered pages we use [square brackets] as we "reasonably assume" the page number.  With unnumbered pages 1s only, it is implicit page 1 and therefore not square bracketed.  So I went and looked at the gifs for page 1 and page 2, and no page numbers, so |page=[1].  For works with only one page, obviously we don't need to indicate page numbers.
 * Double Final Fixed wikicode:
 * More issues: See Ref 4 below. Re |at= with unnumbered pages we use [square brackets] as we "reasonably assume" the page number.  With unnumbered pages 1s only, it is implicit page 1 and therefore not square bracketed.  So I went and looked at the gifs for page 1 and page 2, and no page numbers, so |page=[1].  For works with only one page, obviously we don't need to indicate page numbers.
 * Double Final Fixed wikicode:

Ref 2: The same issue with location and report status
 * Wikipedia: Pasch, Richard J. (1993-09-14). "Tropical Depression Eight Discussion One". National Hurricane Center. Retrieved 2011-10-03.
 * Actual: Pasch, Richard J. (1993-09-14). Tropical Depression Eight Discussion One (Report). Miami, Florida: National Hurricane Center. Retrieved 2011-10-03.
 * And series

Ref 3: The same.

Ref 4:
 * Wikipedia: Pasch, Richard J. (1993-11-10). "Preliminary best track, Hurricane Gert, 14-21 September 1993". National Hurricane Center. Retrieved 2011-10-06.
 * Actual: Pasch, Richard J. (1993-11-10).
 * Issues: see indicates that the document linked to is a Table __within__ the actual document held in a collection "Hurricane GERT in the Hurricane Wallet Digital Archives."  I found this out by walking the hierarchy of the directory   =>   =>   !  So this is actually the same source as citation 1  But now I've found that it is part of a larger document, "Hurricane GERT in the Hurricane Wallet Digital Archives," when a document is part of a Series we use the |series= parameter for the series name.  Where a document is in multiple series of equal weight, we use this: |series=Series1; Series2.  Where a work has multiple hierarchical series |series=Series1, Series2, Series3.  Where both |series=SeriesA; SeriesB1, SeriesB2; SeriesC1, SeriesC2.  So in this case it is |series=Hurricane GERT, Hurricane Wallet Digital Archives.  Now we have to cite the actual location using |at=!
 * Error wikicode:
 * Fixed wikicode:
 * Fixed wikicode:


 * Thank you! I did this with the NHC sources throughout. How does it look?  Auree    ★  02:15, 30 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Please see Ref 4! :) I've updated the article for refs 1-4 for this discovery of the Hurricane Wallet Archive etc. I'm looking over your edits now :) Fifelfoo (talk) 02:23, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Your edits look great! Now you'll have to add that same |series= parameter to them! :)  Also, there's one error with an & nbsp ; it looks like in citation 8?  Look at my edits by the way, I have to go back and recorrect myself over small code errors. Fifelfoo (talk) 02:27, 30 November 2011 (UTC)


 * If the series for Hurricane GERT is |series=Hurricane GERT, Hurricane Wallet Digital Archives, then, what is the series for:
 * Rappaport, Edward N. (1993-09-29). Preliminary Report Tropical Depression Fourteen-E: 21-26 September 1993 (Report). Miami, Florida: National Hurricane Center. Retrieved 2011-10-04.
 * ? We walk up the hierarchy of the directory and find that it is in a directory "http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/archive/storm_wallets/epacific/ep1993/td14e/", which leads us to believe that this is |series=Tropical Depression Fourteen-E, Tropical Cyclone Wallet Archive  via this page Fifelfoo (talk) 02:34, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I have a question. Shouldn't we stay consistent and use either "Hurricane Wallet Digital Archives" or "Tropical Cyclone Wallet Archive"? That is, for the series after after "Hurricane GERT" and "Tropical Depression Fourteen-E".  Auree    ★  02:52, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

So that's sources 1–12 covered!

Ref 13:
 * Wikipedia: Roth, David M (2007-01-27). "Hurricane Gert/T.D. #14E - September 14-28, 1993". Hydrometeorological Prediction Center. Retrieved 2011-10-14.
 * Actual: Roth, David M (2010-05-10). Tropical Cyclone Rainfall Data. Camp Springs, Maryland: Hydrometeorological Prediction Center. p. Hurricane Gert/T.D. #14E - September 14-28, 1993. Retrieved 2011-10-14.
 * Issues: Walking up the hierarchy indicates that this is one page in a series of pages of "Tropical Cyclone Rainfall Data". What do we think that this is most like?  This seems like either an archive of reports, or a chapter in a book.  Lets look at Tropical Cyclone Rainfall Data and Hurricane Gert/T.D.….  "Hurricane Gert/T.D.…" is an analytical chapter, not an old report.  This is a book even though it is a website.  Check the top of the book for its last update?  That's the new work date.  Note for the chapter: we don't cite the chapter using |chapter= because the chapter wasn't authored by a different author to the book author.  Instead we use |at= to indicate the location within the work.  The pages aren't numbered in this book, so we use the named page and link to that page with a hyper link |at=Hurricane Gert/T.D. #14E - September 14-28, 1993.  Oops, I've just checked how that looks, and it looks stupid, it doesn't indicate the page correctly to a reader: that the page cited is the location of the work.  We'd better correct that |at= to a |page= !
 * Error wikicode:
 * Fixed wikicode:
 * Final fixed wikicode:
 * Not sure if I did everything right, but I addressed all the points up till here  Auree    ★  03:28, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You're doing good. I don't remember any reliability problems.  Rather, this is the territory of formatting and presentation issues.  I've never not been able to find a source you cite, even though the source really has a different name :) Fifelfoo (talk) 03:45, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Not sure if I did everything right, but I addressed all the points up till here  Auree    ★  03:28, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You're doing good. I don't remember any reliability problems.  Rather, this is the territory of formatting and presentation issues.  I've never not been able to find a source you cite, even though the source really has a different name :) Fifelfoo (talk) 03:45, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

An Aside: What is a website, an article, a chapter, a book, a volume, a series and a report?

 * Hurricane editors may not have had the kind of education I had in citations. On wikipedia (and everywhere else) we cite works based on their format—not what media they were produced in.  A book can be published online.  A sequence of data can be a book.  How do we work out what type of citation to use?
 * Is the work an extended single document, or comprised of identical chapters, and published? It is likely to be a book.
 * Is the work a small unit written by one author, in a work edited by someone else? It is likely to be a chapter.
 * Is the work a small unit written by one author, in a work that is serially published or has an ISSN? It is likely to be an article.
 * Does the work have a unique Volume Title. For example, "Volume 4: Hurricanes of the Antarctic"?  Then that is likely to be the volume title, and the book title is likely to be the other portion: "Hurricanes of the World.  Volume 4: Hurricanes of the Antarctic"  => title=Hurricanes of the World, volume=Hurricanes of the Antarctic
 * Was the work "Unpublished" but short, but issued in a declarative manner by an official body? That's a report!
 * Is the work a whole single unit, but part of a larger publishing series of works of an identical type, with a name for the higher order grouping? Then it is in a |series=
 * Only when you've exhausted those possibilities, is something a citeweb. Websites aren't serially published, but they aren't declarative and official, but they aren't an extended single document.  Particularly when you find a document deep inside a /whole/bunch/of/html/directories/on/a/meteorological/site, it is very likely that the document is part of some other publication, so get out your web browser's location bar, and start removing directories, or click on "Up one level" or "Parent Document" etc...   Websites are really institutional "about this organisation", personal, blogs, or the like, and citeweb is meant for them.
 * Remember, when we evaluate a work, we evaluate what kind of format the document is, not where it is hosted, or how it is available. Fifelfoo (talk) 03:02, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Ref 14: Need assistance with obscure Mexican government agencies.
 * Wikipedia: (Spanish) "Sistema de Alerta Temprana para Ciclones Tropicales" (PDF). Mexico: Centro Nacional de Prevención de Desastres (CENAPRED). p. 21. Retrieved 2011-11-14.
 * Actual: (Spanish) "Sistema de Alerta Temprana para Ciclones Tropicales" (PDF). Mexico City, Mexico: Centro Nacional de Prevención de Desastres (CENAPRED). p. 21. Retrieved 2011-11-14.
 * Issues: Locations take a variety of formats. The format in use here is "City, [US State/Nation-State]".  CENAPRED is in Mexico City, Mexico.  But I can't find CENAPRED mentioned anywhere on this document.  Secretaria de Gobernación (SEGOB), and Proteción Civil México, and Dirección General de Proteción Civil, and Dirección de Administración de Emergencias.  Was Dirección de Administración de Emergencias the old name of CENAPRED? Fifelfoo (talk) 03:45, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, SEGOB is actually Secretaría de Gobernación, and per CENAPRED's article, CENAPRED is attached to SEGOB. Should I use SEGOB here instead?  Auree    ★  03:57, 30 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Error wikicode:
 * rendered
 * Fixed wikicode:
 * rendered

Note to Fifelfoo
Thank you so much for taking this on (I see Auree is right on it). Cool beans! Sandy Georgia (Talk) 02:09, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree with Sandy. It's quite generous, and we're all very grateful at WPTC.  Auree    ★  02:10, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Useful example improvements to citations for future reference in tropical cyclone FAs
A few useful improvements made by User:Fifelfoo to some of the previous citations:

Initial: Improved:

Initial: Fifelfoo note: ''This is a short run journal, in a covering title section, of an archive, with its own title. I walked "up" the directory of the URL and found the actual archive title. The document title is internally contained. The document editors are internally contained.'' Improved: as archived in

Are you ready for a real challenge? Fifelfoo (talk) 01:33, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * as archived in   Auree    ★  00:36, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * as archived in
 * It is a small journal, that has been archived in a book of material associated with the hurricane. You have to use two citation templates, because normal fiddling with chapter series volume title etc. won't help! :) Fifelfoo (talk) 01:33, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Note
You all are way beyond my feeble efforts now ... I'll be calling on you in the future :) Fifelfoo, can you figure out how to fix the cite template that is forcing the PDF first here? Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 00:40, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * ^ (PDF) ﻿Nicaragua: Assessment of the damage caused by Hurricane Mitch, 1998: Implications for economic and social development and for the environment﻿ (Report). Santiago, Chile: United Nations Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean. 1999-04-19. p. 12. LC/MEX/L.372. http://www.eclac.cl/publicaciones/xml/7/15507/L372-1-EN.pdf. Retrieved 2011-10-06.
 * As of the current time, I'm not seeing this error? Fifelfoo (talk) 01:31, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe Sandy managed to fix this herself (saw her edit, and it seemed fine to me after as well).  Auree    ★  01:35, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * No, not fixed (I fixed something else-- the URL wasn't linking because of a hard break in the title)-- what I'm referring to is that the particular cite template on that one shows (PDF) first, where it follows in every other cite template-- seems to be a formatting error in the actual template. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 03:31, 7 December 2011 (UTC)


 * This problem exists upstream at Template:Citation/core where it has been reported. Fifelfoo (talk) 04:02, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Upstream editors indicate that this template problem will take time to resolve. In those editor's opinions, the failure of the template to perform to user expectations shouldn't hold this FAC back. Fifelfoo (talk) 00:53, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the update, Fifelfoo  Auree    ★  00:55, 12 December 2011 (UTC)