Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Pomona College/archive2

Comments from SandyGeorgia
Hi,. I am no longer active at FAC, but in return for your helpful contributions at FAR, I wanted to add some suggestions for you. That's a bit for now; I will continue as I find time. No need to respond to me line-by-line. I very much like the way you have handled notable alumni, and the image galleries, but I might reduce the first gallery at South Campus from six to five images, so they fit on one line in most screens (personal preference alert). Sandy Georgia (Talk)  23:39, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
 * You can install User:Ohconfucius/script/MOSNUM dates to keep your date formatting consistent (I have done that. )
 * You can install User:GregU/dashes.js to keep your dashes in order (I have done that.)
 * See my sample edit here, regarding HarvRef errors now in the article. See Category:Harv and Sfn template errors to install User:Trappist the monk/HarvErrors.js to detect HarvRef errors. Several of your bundled footnotes are returning errors, and need the sample fix that I added above.
 * Characterizations of the reputation of Pomona College:
 * Ringenberg, William C. (December 1978). "Review of The History of Pomona College, 1887–1969". The American Historical Review. Oxford University Press. 83 (5): 1351–1352. doi:10.2307/1854869. ISSN 0002-8762. JSTOR 1854869. one of the most respected undergraduate colleges in America. Harv warning: There is no link pointing to this citation. The anchor is named CITEREFRingenberg1978.
 * Silverstein, Stuart (April 6, 2002). "Pomona College Head to Retire". Los Angeles Times. Archived from the original on April 7, 2021. Retrieved April 7, 2020. prestigious liberal arts school Harv warning: There is no link pointing to this citation. The anchor is named CITEREFSilverstein2002.
 * Wallace, Amy (May 22, 1996). "Claremont Colleges: Can Bigger Be Better?". Los Angeles Times. Archived from the original on April 7, 2021. Retrieved April 7, 2020. Considered one of the finest liberal arts institutions in the nation Harv warning: There is no link pointing to this citation. The anchor is named CITEREFWallace1996.
 * Media coverage:
 * Bravo, Kristina (July 30, 2015). "Pomona College is No. 1 on Forbes list of best in US". KPCC. Retrieved October 5, 2021. Harv warning: There is no link pointing to this citation. The anchor is named CITEREFBravo2015.
 * Quick, Becky; Kernen, Joe (July 29, 2015). "Squawk Box". Squawk Box. NBCUniversal. 30 minutes in. CNBC. Retrieved April 7, 2021 – via Archive.org. Harv warning: There is no link pointing to this citation. The anchor is named CITEREFQuickKernen2015.
 * Rand 2015
 * Yarbrough, Beau (July 29, 2015). "Pomona College ranked top in nation by Forbes, first Southern California school to do so". Inland Valley Daily Bulletin. Retrieved October 5, 2021. Harv warning: There is no link pointing to this citation. The anchor is named CITEREFYarbrough2015.
 * There are three sources listed in "Bibliography" that are returning HarvRef errors as they are not used as citations. They should be used as citations, or alternately, moved to a Further reading section.
 * Bernard, Robert J. (1982). An Unfinished Dream: A Chronicle of the Group Plan of The Claremont Colleges. Claremont, California: Claremont University Center. OCLC 9199564. Harv warning: There is no link pointing to this citation. The anchor is named CITEREFBernard1982.
 * Brackett, Frank P. (1944). Granite and Sagebrush: Reminiscences of the First Fifty Years of Pomona College. Los Angeles: Ward Ritchie Press. hdl:2027/uc1.b3116079. OCLC 4334585. Harv warning: There is no link pointing to this citation. The anchor is named CITEREFBrackett1944.
 * Sumner, Charles Burt (1914). The Story of Pomona College. Boston: Pilgrim Press. OCLC 6071185. Harv warning: There is no link pointing to this citation. The anchor is named CITEREFSumner1914.
 * See the top of User:SandyGeorgia for links to articles discussing the word however. (See the links to User:Tony1's writing exercises about the word also which is almost always redundant, and review that word throughout. Also, see subsequently there.
 * Individually, Pomona offers approximately 650 courses per semester.[227] However, students may take a significant portion[g] of their courses at the other Claremont Colleges, enabling access to approximately 2700 courses total.[219]
 * Perhaps instead:
 * Pomona offers approximately 650 courses per semester,[227] although students may take a significant portion[g] of their courses at the other Claremont Colleges, thereby accessing approximately 2700 courses total.[219]
 * Pomona is considered the most prestigious liberal arts college in the Western United States and one of the most prestigious in the country.[5] However, among the broader public, it has less name recognition than many larger schools.[271][272]
 * An alternative is:
 * Pomona is considered the most prestigious liberal arts college in the Western United States and one of the most prestigious in the country,[5] but, among the broader public, has less name recognition than many larger schools.[271][272]
 * The number subsequently became a meme among the class, which spread once the academic year began and snowballed over time.[403]
 * It could not have become a meme before; the subsequently is redundant.
 * a coordinating entity that manages the central library, campus safety services, health services, and various other resources.
 * various is redundant.
 * MOS:CURRENT. I recognize that there is a fancy transclusion to keep the President's name current, but Wikipedia articles are mirrored all over the internet, so we really need to specify a time frame in this sentence, by adding something like "since 2017" or "named in 2017" (which also requires using a different source than the current one, which has no date). It is responsible for hiring the college's president (currently G. Gabrielle Starr[194]),
 * MOS:HEAD advises against repeating words in lower-level headings, but I am at a loss for how to fix this:
 * 5	Admissions and financial aid
 * 5.1	Admissions
 * 5.2	Costs and financial aid
 * I am concerned that the map/graphic in the "Campus" section uses only color to convey some information, so may not meet MOS:COLOR, part of Manual of Style/Accessibility. Is it possible to also add the symbol to the key?
 * The Academic rankings infobox in the "Reputation and rankings" section is bolding the publication names, which should only be italicized. Are you able to correct that in the infobox template?  Similar problem in the Admissions statistics (excess use of bolding, see MOS:BOLD).
 * Because Higher education articles are among the hardest to keep current, it is ultra important to specify date context any where that info might change. Samples:
 * Pomona has approximately 25,000 living alumni. (as of when ?)
 * and enrolls approximately 1,700 students. --> and enrolled approximately 1,700 students in year xxxx.
 * Pomona has the lowest acceptance rate of any national liberal arts college in the U.S. ... needs date context ... these are only samples, I haven't read entire article.
 * The list of alumni, while tightly controlled, is too hard to read. You might consider grouping them similarly to Lewy_body_dementias, to break up sentences or add paras.
 * Starting a section with a number is odd, would you consider something different than "47 reverence" like "Reverence for number 47"?
 * Is "Most notably" unnecessary editorializing, or is it supported by the source? "Most notably, Joe Menosky (class of 1979), a writer for Star Trek: The Next Generation, inserted 47 mentions into nearly every episode of the show, a practice that has been picked up by other Star Trek writers."
 * I was looking at the new Forbes rankings today, and think this might also mention where it stands now: In 2015, the Forbes ranking placed it first among all colleges and universities in the U.S., drawing media attention.
 * Don't start a sentence with a number ...
 * 38 percent of the budget was allocated to instruction, 2 percent to research, 1 percent to public service, 11 percent to academic support, 13 percent to student services, 18 percent to institutional support, and 17 percent to auxiliary expenses. --> That year, 38 percent of the budget was allocated to instruction, 2 percent to research, 1 percent to public service, 11 percent to academic support, 13 percent to student services, 18 percent to institutional support, and 17 percent to auxiliary expenses.
 * Should Association for the Advancement of Sustainability in Higher Education be WP:RED-linked?
 * Providing the location would be nice so readers (particularly those of us who know the area) don't have to click out to find it: and operates a telescope at the Table Mountain Observatory.


 * Thanks so much for these excellent comments, Sandy! I've started addressing some of them and I'll continue working tomorrow on some others. Replying on a few things:
 * On HarvRef errors: I hadn't learned what ref does before, so thanks for catching this! For the bibliography section, is it actually an error to have the ref without anything pointing to it, or is it just something the tool identifies as a possible error? I could use all of them to support various things in the body, but I don't want to overcrowd it and other refs are stronger. I also wouldn't be too keen to break up the bibliography, as it wouldn't be too clear to readers why some stuff is there and other stuff is in a different "further reading" section.
 * On "Admissions and financial aid" sectioning: Yeah, I'm not sure about this either. The section feels a bit like a holder for miscellaneous subsections. One option might be to turn it into two small level-2 sections, but some might object to imbalanced length. Another option might be to move admissions to the people section and costs/financial aid to the governance section, but neither would be a perfect fit. Will ponder...
 * On color in the campus map: Thanks for paying attention to accessibility there; that's always a key thing. I don't think there's any information presented solely through color, since clicking on any item reveals the type in the description field, but even so I would definitely prefer to be able to use the markers themselves with symbols in the legend. I asked about that here a little while back and hopefully someday it will be made possible technically.
 * On bolding in the templates: I'll bring that up at the template pages/WT:HED. The bolding follows the formatting of other infoboxes (including the one in the lead), but MOS:BOLD doesn't have anything to say on the matter and I think you're right that unbolded publication names would look better.
 * On the alumni list: One solution I'm considering for making that easier to read is turning it into a table, similar to a section at List of Pomona College people. That'd lengthen it, but I'm not quite sure by how much; I'll put together a sandbox so we can see how it'd look and decide.
 * On AASHE notability: I think I did a WP:BEFORE-esque search at one point, but I'll try another more thorough one. Sustainability at American Colleges and Universities exists, but it's pretty TNT-worthy.
 * Looking forward to the rest! Cheers, &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 09:21, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I’m not fussed about any of the issues you have commented on so far, but will opine on the Bibliography/Further reading division. Most readers and editors will not see those HarvRef errors, as they won’t have the script installed that detects them, so that alone is not a reason to separate them.  And, what you have done conforms with the advice given at WP:LAYOUT.  But, I suspect you will get some grumbles at FAC about why you haven’t used those sources, and why they aren’t listed in Further reading (as in, if you haven’t used them, is the article comprehensive).  Your answer is that they are good sources, but you have used stronger sources.  And … if you were to separate them to Further reading, that would also be your answer to why you separated them.  So, moving them could result in less hassle at FAC.  Up to you!  Regards, Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  06:54, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Sdkb, were you going to look through the rest of my list? I am satisfied with your answers on those you addressed so far, but there were other points. Also, are these the same ref?
 * a b "Student Body". Pomona College. Retrieved October 5, 2021.
 * a b "Student Body". Pomona College. Retrieved October 5, 2021.
 * Or, if they are intended to show something different, can that be spelled out? Sandy Georgia (Talk)  12:40, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, I will get to the others; sorry for the slight delay on that.
 * Regarding the duplicate ref, that has been bugging me quite a lot. It's happening because the reference for the students count is coming from Wikidata, whereas the reference for the ethnic breakdown is here on Wikipedia. Ideally, I'd like that to be on Wikidata, too—when I asked, I was pointed to this property proposal, which is awaiting closure. The software also ought to be able to detect when references are the same and automatically merge them. After discussion at the module talk, I submitted a Phabricator task for that back in February.I think you've already inferred this, but the reason I'm trying to use Wikidata wherever possible is to try to ensure that the article remains up-to-date and avoids the fate of all the other college articles getting delisted. Pomona is small enough institution that, should I someday retire, the article would probably go out of date if it relies on manual updating of annual statistics. However, it's possible to mass import IPEDS/Common Data Set/etc. information to Wikidata, and that will likely happen regularly in the future, helping to keep Pomona's page updated along with all the others. It comes with some challenges like this because it's still a beta feature, but I hope it'll be worth it. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 19:57, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I wondered if something like this was involved. Maybe add an explanatory line to the citation?  You can manually input content between the end of the ref bracket and the beginning of the ref tag.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  20:01, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Added here. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 04:06, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Following up about the alumni/faculty list, I put together what that'd look like here in my sandbox. It makes it a lot cleaner, but it also lowers the information density quite a lot (meaning the section would be longer) and it requires the descriptions to be very short (e.g. sorry Bill Keller, no room to mention your Pulitzer). I'm slightly leaning toward adopting it but not fully decided; do you have a preference? &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 08:28, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
 * One advantage to the table is that you may have less of a problem with drive-by or inexperienced editors expanding the list! On the articles I edit, that is always a big problem, and editing a table is harder than editing text. Unintended effect might be a good one? Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  15:02, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I see difficulty of editing by newcomers as more bug than feature—yeah, realistically there's a 90% chance that any notable alumni addition by a newcomer should be reverted, but as a principle I don't want to own the article more than necessary. Anyways, I went ahead and implemented the move to a table. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 23:45, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

So addressing the outstanding things: I think that's all from your comments so far. Please let me know if there's anything I missed that you'd like me to address, and thanks again for your helpful suggestions! Cheers, &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 23:45, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I did another sweep to remove excessive instances of "also" and similar words. I retained them only in a few spots where I feel they help with flow ("broader public" being one; I'd prefer to keep that as two sentences to avoid a run-on).
 * I moved everything in the admissions and financial aid section to other sections. Now that I've done it, it seems to fit plenty well.
 * I pinged you at the non-lead infobox bolding discussion.
 * As of added where needed (lmk if I missed anywhere). For the students count, I've set it to automatically appear whenever the data is not current. This does have a little bit of the reuse issue you mentioned before, but I think the responsibility for informing audience of potential datedness lies with the party mirroring (i.e. they ought to say "From the Wikipedia article as it appeared ").
 * 47 section title changed.
 * Current Forbes ranking is #19 overall, reflected in the rankings box.
 * Table Mountain location added (it's also in the interactive map if you zoom out).


 * Thx, Sdkb; busy day, I will keep watchlisted and check in over time, but this looks good-- I didn't have anything critical noted. Bst, Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  23:51, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Review from SG
Reviewing this version:
 * Dashes and dates are good; there are some duplicate links, but I believe they are helpful and justified.
 * Yep, I did a duplicate link review a little while ago and anything remaining is intentional. Recent MOS discussion has clarified that there is some flexibility in MOS:DUPLINK when it is helpful for readers. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * On MOS:SANDWICH, it might be advisable to move up the image in the "Interwar years" section, and I'm not fond of the jamup in the "Athletics" section. Viewing it on all of my devices (large and small), it seems to work, but I wonder if the image of the football game really adds anything.
 * Moved interwar years image up. For the contemporary football game photo, one thing I think it shows is the scale of Pomona's athletics: you can see from it that there's bleachers with a medium-sized crowd, but it's very clearly not this. That may be helpful, especially for a non-American who doesn't know what Division III means in practice. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I am satisfied now about the bolding in the infoboxes, as that was discussed at MOS talk.
 * Link for the record/anyone else who wants to chime in. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Trying to understand how to read this source. I find 93% in top 10% of graduating class, but article reports 92% ? That source is hard to navigate! I'd feel much better about that kind of data in articles if we somewhere mentioned that this is according to data supplied by the university.
 * Hmm, you're right, it's 92%, not 93%. I'm not sure how that discrepancy got in there; maybe the college revised the CDS after updating for waitlist admits or maybe I just goofed up haha. And yeah, the Common Data Set data presentation overall is a mess; hopefully sometime soon they'll put it in a database we can easily import to Wikidata rather than having every school fill out a form like it's the 1990s haha. Regarding the self-reporting, yeah, that irks me too, but I think the most we can reasonably do is put the college as publisher in the citations. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I like how you've handled "Noted alumni and faculty", but think it would be helpful if the inline (hidden) comment specified some criteria for determining who is added. Else, if you move on, we'll be dealing with a list a mile long at FAR someday :)
 * For the faculty, I have As a rough rule of thumb, there should be a chance that a random person with no special interest in the listee's field might have heard of them. I'm struggling to figure out how to give something concrete for the alumni beyond only the very most significant, though, since there are just so many ways for someone to become notable and the decision about what makes the cut is so subjective. One way to do it might be to change the note to state that additions to the list must be proposed first at talk before they're added; would you support adding that? &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I like the idea of proposing at talk, but one way you might think of who gets added is something akin to what we do in medical content; did they make an enduring impression upon their field (in medical, eg Michael J. Fox for Parkinson’s, Ronald Reagan Alzheimer’s, or Robin Williams for Lewy body dementia, everyone else off to a list page elsewhere). By forcing something an enduring impression upon their fields, you don’t have to include every mayor of a mid-size town who meets notability, but maybe you can tighten it. (I’ll work through the rest of your comments slowly; got tied up with an SPI issue, and forgot to arb vote, so working slowly; if I don’t respond to anything, it’s fine. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  01:29, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I did some de-also-fying. I think much more can be done; in several of these instances, the also is just redundant. The dreaded however and subsequent are not present.
 * Some of those I felt helped with the flow, but I can live with the adjustments and I may warm to them over time. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Since technically quotes have to be attributed and cited wherever they occur, it might be better to re-phrase this in the lead: "college of the New England type"
 * I added a copy of the source to support it. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * as well as access to more than 2000 --> 2,000, ditto rose above 1000 following the war ... I think MOS allows these, but awkward, because later ... and speakers and has a capacity of 2,500 ... and ... Pomona's student body consists of 1,747 degree-seeking
 * Good catch; done! &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I note that all promotional statements in the lead are independently sourced to recent sources (thank you :) but am not sure why all hard data except this is cited in the lead: "It has a $2.25 billion endowment as of June 2020, making it the seventh-wealthiest college or university in the U.S. on a per student basis."
 * My approach for the lead citations (per the hidden comment) is to include only controversial qualitative information, quotes, and information not repeated in body. "Controversial qualitative information" includes prestige, student body characterization, and Fulbright success. Non-repeated info includes the college colors (the mention in the body is for the athletics colors), pronunciation, and prominent alumni (since I don't list e.g. the Olympic athletes here). Other instances of hard data don't have lead references, though, per MOS:LEADCITE. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * This as a citation could cause you problems down the road: "Please refer to the list of Pomona College people article for prominent alumni references." (I think in terms of FAR and if you go missing on Wikipedia, and the kinds of messes we end up sorting :)
 * Yeah, I've struggled with what to do with this. Here's the list of people to show that there are at least two for each category with a plural:
 * Oscars: Robert Towne, David S. Ward, Robert Blalack, Jim Taylor (writer)
 * Emmys: Anthony Zerbe, Robert Blalack, Allison Jones (casting director), Twyla Tharp
 * Grammys: Robert Shaw (conductor), David Murray (saxophonist), Chris Strachwitz
 * Tonys: George C. Wolfe, Twyla Tharp
 * U.S. Senators: Brian Schatz, Alan Cranston
 * U.S. Ambassadors: Hugh S. Gibson, Julian Nava, Kenneth L. Brown
 * U.S. federal officials: Leslie A. Wheeler, William B. Bader, Esther Brimmer
 * Pulitzers: Relman Morin, Bill Keller, Mary Schmich
 * Nobel: Jennifer Doudna
 * National Academy of Science: Norris Bradbury, M. Frederick Hawthorne, Hugo Benioff, J. Andrew McCammon, Robert Gomer, Thomas D. Pollard, M. Stanley Livingston, Jennifer Doudna, Thomas McDade
 * National Academy of Medicine: Jennifer Doudna, Sharon K. Inouye
 * National Academy of Engineering: Burton Smith, David Van Wie
 * I've ensured all the people here are at List of Pomona College people, but it'd be incredibly unwieldy to cite them all here, as it'd require duplicating a good chunk of that list. Is there any good solution? If we have to keep the current note, hopefully it counts for something that the list has featured status. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Not worried about what you’ve done; worried about what happens to articles like this when the main watcher/editor leaves, having seen how things deteriorate over the years in articles that end up at FAR. Possibly adding an inline comment will help  control that. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  01:31, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

WOW, awesome school, awesome work, anticipate supporting, and want Stanford to give me my money back. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  20:33, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Of the three citations, move the citation for the specific quote to right after the quote? "college of the New England type", emulating the institutions where many of them had been educated.[13][15][16]
 * Perplexingly, when I just double checked, it seems Lyon never actually uses the direct quote (from an 1885 report from the Education Committee of the Association of Congregational Churches in Southern California), but all three sources support the overall sentence, so I'd prefer to keep them at the end. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Personal pet peeve, I hate the phrase "managed to", but your choice: Pomona suffered through a severe financial crisis during its early years but managed to survive, --> Pomona survived a severe financial crisis during its early years,
 * Rephrased to remove "managed to". &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * respectively, the student body (like most others of the era) ... make sure the source support "like most others of the era"
 * The relevant quote from the source is this: as the U.S. Supreme Court considers whether colleges can continue to use race-based affirmative action in admissions, administrators at Pomona and other elite private colleges across the nation fear a return to the past.Although the cases before the high court involve a public school -- the University of Michigan -- its rulings could apply to the many private colleges and universities that accept federal funds. Officials at colleges such as Pomona say a ruling outlawing the use of race in admissions could reverse decades of progress, making them more like the insular, practically all-white places they were 40 years ago. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Not modifying anything, so why the hyphen? "remained almost all-white throughout this period"
 * Fixed. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Consider delinking World War I, MOS:OVERLINK, the most common overlinked article on Wikipedia, everyone knows what it is, no one will click on it from here.
 * I don't feel very strongly about this, but I lean a little toward retaining it, since links are cheap (readers can always ignore them), and it helps for consistency with linked terms like Great Depression (which a young, history-disinclined, or non-Western reader might plausibly not know about). &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Ditto World War II
 * See above. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Noting, again, thank you citing promotional claims independently, as a model for other higher education article (During the tenure of president David Alexander from 1969 to 1991, Pomona gained increased prominence on the national stage.)
 * Could you spell out LEED the first time the acronym is used ? Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design
 * I've never heard LEED referenced with anything other than its acronym. Taking a second look at MOS:ACRO1STUSE, it says Another exception is when something is most commonly known by its acronym (i.e., its article here is at the acronym title), in which case the expansion can come in the parenthetical or be omitted. I've nominated that article to be moved. We could add the full name in parentheses here, but I'm not sure that'd be worth it, as it's clear from the context that it's an environmental certification and readers who want to know more than that can go to its article. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I’ve never heard of LEED and had to look it up :) When I think of “commonly known”, I think FBI, CIA, etc … YMMV~! Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  01:34, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * But then what ??? "The college stopped singing it at convocation and commencement, alienating some alumni."
 * Not much, really. It's still technically the alma mater, but practically that doesn't mean much. The Glee Club hasn't sung it since 2007. Anecdotally, I've heard some alumni still refuse to donate because of it, and I would guess most current students would not know that Pomona has a song. There's some more info at Traditions of Pomona College, but the sourcing is very thin on developments with the song since 2008, since there basically haven't been any so there's been no news peg. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Redundant? Isn't a blend always varied? "the present campus features a varied blend of architectural styles"
 * Changed to just "a blend of architectural styles". &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Oldenborg Center, a foreign language housing option ... hyphen ??
 * Added. Hyphenation isn't my grammatical strong suit haha. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * redundant ... as well as many athletics facilities,
 * I don't want to falsely imply that the Wash has all Pomona's athletics facilities, since it's only most. I changed the wording to "as well as many of the college's athletics facilities", which hopefully gets across the intended meaning better. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for anticipating the inevitable question :) the Clark halls (I, III, and V[c])
 * Don't start sentence with number ... 49 percent of international students received financial aid, with an average award of $66,125.[217]
 * Fixed. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * This construct may not be friendly to international readers ... perhaps find something to wikilink explaining a to F? "and a C average GPA"
 * I added wikilinks to GPA, which goes to Grading in education. The best link might be Academic grading in the United States, but there we have the classic MOS:EGG vs. MOS:SPECIFICLINK conundrum. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Don't start sentence with number ... 14 percent of students completed a double major, 25 percent completed a minor, and 2 percent completed multiple minors.
 * Reviewing MOS:NUMERAL, yikes, this gets complicated. There's the line Comparable values should be all spelled out or all in figures, even if one of the numbers would normally be written differently; does that give us license to use figures here? &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I think so … or re-cast the sentence. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  01:36, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * You might need to explain what this means, if you can do so without OR (no TAs, etc) "All classes at Pomona are taught by professors."
 * Done. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Uncomfortable coming from one source ... too big of a generalization to come from one writer ... needs attribution or different wording ... "Students and professors often form close relationships,[235]"
 * Here's the relevant passage from Yee: Students at Pomona frequently mentioned having casual meals with their professors, getting advanced research opportunities as underclassmen, and learning about their professors' quirkier sides. "Classes are small enough that you get to know your professors as people," a junior said. In addition to having accessible professors... I'll add Fiske, which notes that the faculty makes a point of being accessible (p. 155), and Greene, which states Pomona maintains among its faculty and staff an intense commitment to undergraduate education in the liberal arts tradition, focusing primarily on quality teaching and interaction between students and faculty (p. 551) and Students at Pomona benefit from numerous academic and residential life programs that connect them to the campus, to faculty, and to internships. These include college facilitation of faculty living on or near campus, training for faculty in advising, matching of appropriate faculty advisors with students (p. 556). &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Is this necessary (that is, don't they almost always everywhere)?? "Semesters end with a week-long final examination period preceded by two reading days.[236] "
 * Almost everywhere has final exams, but I've heard of some places without reading days, and the length of the reading days and final exam period varies. It's certainly not anything that makes Pomona distinctive, but since it's a meaningful part of the college's academic program I figured it'd be worthwhile to mention briefly in this section. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Begging for an "as of" ... More than half of Pomona students conduct research with faculty.
 * The reason I just wrote "more than half" rather than giving the specific percentage (58% in the 2018 survey, which appears to be the most recent one) is that I was hoping to be able to avoid an as of and the need for constant updating. It's been above half for many years and will presumably stay that way in the future. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * "every year"? The college sponsors a Summer Undergraduate Research Program (SURP) every year, --> The college sponsors an annual Summer Undergraduate Research Program (SURP),
 * Done. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Move the as of from the next sentence to here ? Approximately half of Pomona students study abroad
 * This is a similar situation to above; I put a less precise number (the specific is 54%, as of 2018) so that it won't have to be constantly updated. The next sentence gives specific numbers of study abroad programs offered, which could easily change, so that has an as of. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Uncomfortable with this kind of statement without attribution (to Pomona) and as of date: Within 10 years, 81 percent of Pomona graduates attend graduate or professional school.
 * That's reasonable; added date and attribution. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * This looks like an editorializing summary of the sentence which follows; that sentence speaks for itself ... delete this sentence, and let the facts speak for themselves ?? "Many Pomona students pursue competitive postgraduate fellowships. "
 * Adjusted to make a single sentence. "Competitive postgraduate fellowships" is an attempt to define the class of things I'm referring to, since "fellowship" can refer to various types of things. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Don't start a sentence with a number: 47.8 percent of admitted applicants chose to enroll.
 * Tweaked. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Opinion that should be attributed to source: Compared to its closest liberal arts peers, Pomona is generally characterized as laid back, academically oriented, mildly quirky, and politically liberal.
 * All of the college guides (Fiske, Greene, Yee) say similar things here, so while this is certainly subjective, it's fairly well-established. I changed is generally characterized to has been characterized so that the sourcing doesn't need to be quite as strong. I think it's important to have this sentence because, while the personality of a student body is harder to measure than e.g. its gender composition, it's certainly real—the differences between Pomona's student body and e.g. Sewanee's can't be chalked up to demographics alone—and significant. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Don't start a sentence with a number: 27 percent of students are from California, with sizable concentrations from the other western states.
 * Changed. It feels somewhat weird, since it's surrounded by percentages that use figures, but I'm not sure if it's enough of a "comparable value" to qualify for the exemption from earlier. Let me know if you have any further thoughts on that. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * In general, I think avoiding starting a sentence with a number trumps everything else. The problem with seeing a number after a sentence-ending citation is you feel like you missed something, and have to read back … Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  01:38, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The student body is roughly evenly split between men -->  The 2020 (??) student body is roughly evenly split between men
 * This is another instance where I gave a more general value rather than a specific to avoid having to add a date that would need constant updating (I also want to break up the barrage of percentages where I can). If the gender composition of the student body shifted significantly, that'd be a historical change to the college, so this information is not time-sensitive. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * For WP:MOSNUM consistency within a sentence, it is OK to spell out ... All incoming students are placed into a sponsor group, with 10–20 peers and two or three upper-class "sponsors" --> All incoming students are placed into a sponsor group, with ten to tweny peers and two or three upper-class "sponsors" (why does "sponsor" need to be in quotes?)
 * Changed to words.Regarding the quote marks around "fountaining", I included these because they're invented terms, but looking through MOS:TEXT, I can't actually find anything supporting using quote marks in this way. There are a bunch of instances throughout the article—"Big Bridges", "Little Bridges", "7Cs", "5Cs", "the Hive", "friendship suites", "sponsors", "fountaining", "J-Board", "Flex Dollars", "Orientation Adventure", "Ski-Beach Day", "Green Bikes", "Sagecoach", "Sagehen". Is there any guidance on how to handle these? Some of them feel more necessary than others, and the last case is a MOS:WAW case, so maybe that should be changed to italics? &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I struggle with the same, and have never found adequate guidance. Let common sense be your guide. (I am using that fancy software gadget to respond via iPAd, as I’m not home, and finding it very irritating that none of my posts are indenting/threading correctly … sorry ‘bout that ! Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  01:40, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Opinions, attribute ... Overall, drinking culture is present but does not dominate over other elements of campus life,[345][346] nor does athletics culture.[347]
 * Similar to the student body characterization above, I'd consider this subjective information but not an opinion. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Not modifying anything, why hyphen ... Pomona's dining services are run in-house.
 * Fixed. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Stanford is B-class and WP:MILLION-eligible; time to get working, I think &#123;{u&#124;  Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I helped with MemChu, but no interest otherwise; I got my real education at my undergraduate. Odd, though, for a California girl to not be aware of what a good place Pomona is. Very nice work; there is nothing here I’m fussed about enough to not Support, but just some ideas to prevent me seeing this at FAR a decade from now. Best, Sandy Georgia (Talk)  01:42, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Source review ?
Sdkb, is this your first FA? If so, we hastomake a detailed source review to make sure you aren't one of those bad guys ... let me know. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  20:49, 3 December 2021 (UTC)


 * I'll address your comments above soon, but just to answer this, if passed this will be my second piece of featured content (after List of Pomona College people) but my first FA. Zetana did a source check as part of the peer review. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 09:30, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
 * That should hold you in good stead for the general source checking needed, but for first-time FAs, we also need a random check for close paraphrasing or copyvio; it's not clear if Zetana was looking for that. Since I will be busy from Thursday to Monday next, I'd like to get a start on this, so you won't be held up. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  19:36, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Sounds good; let me know if I can be of any help. I'm currently going through your comments above, but I'll try to make small edits to the article to reduce the chance of edit conflicts. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 19:51, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Checking for too close paraphrasing
Edwards
 * Article: He [Lyon] and dean of women Jean Walton ended the gender segregation of Pomona's residential life, first with the opening of Frary Dining Hall (then part of the men's campus) to women beginning in 1957[76] and later with the elimination of parietal rules in the late 1960s[82]
 * Source: 1957 Frary would not be opened full-time to women until 1961, at which point the protests would briefly resume.
 * Source: Edwards, pp. 17–19. Good.
 * No problems with paraphrasing, but I did not find mention of Lyon, and it appears that the attempt in 1957 was unsuccessful ?
 * I'm not sure how directly Lyon was involved, but there's the general principle that a leader of an institution takes credit (or blame, as it may be) for what happens there under their watch. The opening was initially one day a week in 1957 (thus why I use "beginning in" rather than "in") and later expanded. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 05:01, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Article: Protesters ... forced the cancellation of classes at the end of the spring 1970 semester.[89][90]
 * Source: Edwards, p. 27. Several California colleges and universities elected to adhere to Governor Ronald Reagan’s unique request that they close, but Pomona only canceled classes on May 7. Administrators offered their distracted students the option of taking classes on a pass-fail basis and urged them to attend meetings discussing the controversial war. To the disgust of activists, many classmates preferred a beach party to a campus seminar.
 * Source: 1970 In the wake of the shootings that took place on the Kent State campus on May 4, in which Ohio National Guardsmen killed four students and wounded nine others, there were virulent anti-ROTC protests at CMC (see below) and voices were raised on the Pomona campus calling for a departure from the normal end of semester during this time of turmoil. Classes were closed on May 7, and with less than three weeks left in the academic year, the faculty agreed to a radical restructuring of remaining academic work, ...
 * No paraphrasing issues, but classes were only closed for one day it seems.
 * Hmm, I read that as they were cancelled [for the rest of the semester] on May 7. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 05:01, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Article: The college's ethnic diversity also began to increase,[91][92][93]
 * Source: Lyon, not accessible
 * You can access Lyon freely if you're willing to make an Archive.org account (which is super useful for lots of books). &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 05:01, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Source: Edwards, pp. 11–12. Prior to the mid-1960s small college admission officers had not made a path to inner city schools, but they, or black student recruiters, eagerly trod it in the late 1960s. The Claremont colleges, utilizing their Southern California location, had more success in recruiting minority students; for example, Pomona in 1971 enrolled 89 blacks, far more than the two Pacific Northwest schools combined. ... In the early 1960s administrators at the three schools planned construction, not campus diversity. Recognizing the need to upgrade their facilities, especially new dormitories that would match the modern facilities recently erected at large universities and classrooms that would compare with suburban high schools, leaders raised construction funds. Meanwhile, campus residents continually grumbled about the fact that men lived on one side of the campus and the women on the other, a space that Pomona residents called no-man’s land. But in the mid-1960s the college had opened a co-educational dormitory; this significant departure from tradition received praise from local and far distant dormitory residents.
 * Source: 1969 Despite student protests, the Board of Trustees voted not to establish an autonomous Black Studies Center at Pomona College. However, at the suggestion of Trustee H. Russell Smith, a Human Resources Institute was established in the Claremont University Center. It included a Black Studies Center, a Mexican-American Studies Center (changed to Center for Chicano Studies in 1972), and a Center of Urban Studies. ... and, as a result of the administration’s commitment to increasing the number of minority students, the class had 31 Black students, compared to six the year before, and 19 Latino students.
 * No problems, diversity was via the consortium
 * Article: and activists successfully pushed the consortium to establish black and Latino studies programs in 1969.[94][93]
 * Source: Edwards, p. 37. In early 1969 Pomona and the other Claremont colleges engaged in a heated debate and then jointly created the Black Studies Center and the Mexican-American Center.
 * Source: 1969 Same as sample above.
 * Accurate to the wording "consortium", as it was joint.
 * Article: A bomb exploded at the Carnegie Building that February, permanently injuring a secretary; no culprit was ever identified.[93][95][96][97]
 * Source: 1969 On Feb. 26, a bomb went off in the Politics Department in Carnegie Hall, seriously injuring the department secretary, Mary Ann Keatley. Mrs. Keatley lost part of her right hand and suffered severe eye injuries when she picked up a shoebox wrapped in brown paper from a government professor’s mailbox and it exploded in her hand. Another bomb went off at approximately the same time in a women’s bathroom at Scripps College, with no casualties. No one ever took responsibility or was arrested for the bombings, which took place during a time of publicized protests and heightened tensions concerning the creation of ethnic study programs at the College and the Vietnam War.
 * Source: Podcast This podcast is 22 min long; timestamps in the citations may be helpful.
 * Source: Edwards, pp. 36–37. During Pomona’s “agitation over Black Studies” a pipe bomb addressed to a professor exploded in the hands of a secretary who lost part of her sight and two fingers.68 Officials determined that outsiders were responsible for the device.
 * Source: Lyon, not accessible
 * No culprit was ever identified, the ever is presumably verified to the 2016 podcast, which is more recent than the other sources, but a timemark for listening to the Podcast would facilitate verification.
 * The information about no culprit ever being identified is at 17:12, but since the episode as a whole is about the bombing, I'm not sure it'd make sense to give a timestamp. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 05:01, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Just a start ... there are no paraphrasing problems; I can look at a few more samples later, Sandy Georgia (Talk)  20:33, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Sorry this took so long, Earwig was not cooperating, no problems found in pre-first-FAC version, or now Sandy Georgia (Talk)  17:48, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Earwig copyvio checks
 * Clean version 1033612985 (just before first FAC)
 * Current version reveals one line from the LA Times that is used in a direct quote; no problems.