Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/SS Edmund Fitzgerald/archive2

Fifelfoo's 1c/2c review, details
References Notes:
 * authormask=2 fails to meet its design specifications. Work around, replace 2 with —— (two unicode m-dashes).
 * Done but I see no difference with two mdashes or simply =2. Brad (talk) 07:56, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Last time I checked (yesterday) authormask=2 renders two m spaces and strikes them through. And this fails on about half the browser share.  authormask=—— does not fail on half the browser share. This bug has been reported and unattended by template authors for about half a year. Fifelfoo (talk) 20:48, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Hemming, Robert J. (1981)'s location is out of style (lack of city, State)?
 * Done.--Wpwatchdog (talk) 16:42, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Publisher location required, and should be in style: Johnson, Mark (November 10, 2010). ; MacInnis, Joseph (1998).
 * Done.--Wpwatchdog (talk) 16:42, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Newspaper & periodicals non-scholarly location required per style at The Blade: Lawrence, Eric (November 8, 2008). ; Nuytten, Phil (December 2005).
 * Done.--Wpwatchdog (talk) 23:32, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * ""Marine Accident Report…" NTSB appears to be the corporate author; date out of style, check date styles per MOS
 * Sorry if this is something I should understand,but could could you clarify what problem you are indicating when you say "corporate author" Thanks. North8000 (talk) 20:03, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Authors can either be individual "North8000," or corporate "The Society for Snuggling Dogs" or a series of the previous "North8000, Fifelfoo, The Society for Snuggling Dogs, and others". Organisations are capable of authoring documents.  Reports like the NTSB/MBCR are usually authored by their originating organisation. Fifelfoo (talk) 20:52, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * That part I knew. What I meant that in two cases, you said "corporate author" as if such indicated a problem, and I do not understand what problem you were indicating. Thanks.  North8000 (talk) 21:17, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * In the two cases I indicated the reports appear to be authored by the authority in question (national transport safety board, for example). Thus in this case the citation should have |author=National Transport Safety Board; and this would solve the short citation problems because you can cite them at "National Transport Safety Board (19XX), pp. 208–209" for example.  Major reports are usually corporately authored, and it is worth checking if the reports have author lines. Fifelfoo (talk) 22:42, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks! North8000 (talk) 23:05, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I revised the references so that the two Boards are the authors of the official reports. If the author is the National Transportation Board, then who is publisher?  The NTSB report lists the members towards the end of the report.  The USCG does not list the members of the board.  Should we list the NTSB members as authors?--Wpwatchdog (talk) 23:18, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep the Boards as the Authors: they act as a single body ie: a body "corporate". Thus, do not list the members of the board: the board is the author, not the people who comprise the board.  Check the page after the title page (the bibliographic page) this ought to list the publisher.  Some technical and government bodies are both the author and the publisher of their reports.  This is acceptable: they act as if they are "scholarly experts" in this regard when reporting.  For example, Australian Bureau of Statistics is both the author and publisher of "History of Price Indexes in Australia". Fifelfoo (talk) 00:04, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The USCG did list their Marine Board members but now I see it doesn't matter for citation purposes. The reports did not list a publisher so we will use the Boards as the author and publisher in the citations.  Thank you for patience in helping us understand how to fix it.--Wpwatchdog (talk) 01:54, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * A pre-emptive additional question. Neither WP:MOS, nor WP:ABBR, nor WP:CITE seem to say anything about abbreviations in citations. If so, I think that means the general rule applies, and both short citations and References should follow the body of the article and abbreviate USCG and NTSB. Or can you advise differently? --Rontombontom (talk) 10:22, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I suggest abbreviating in the Author Field in the bibliography immediately after the spelt out name "Driving over geraniums (DOG)". This lets people use alphabetic searching (N...) to find National... but visually they can see (NTSB) Fifelfoo (talk) 21:42, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. Thank you for the good suggestion.--Wpwatchdog (talk) 22:07, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Ramsey, Raymond, M.Sc. (2009). : remove post nominal title per style
 * Done.--Wpwatchdog (talk) 16:42, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Two dates: Revised edition? Reprint? Stonehouse, Frederick.
 * Dealt with under Notes. --Rontombontom (talk) 18:24, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Stonehouse revised his book in 2006. It includes information not found in the 1977 edition.--Wpwatchdog (talk) 19:05, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * edition=Revised. |year=2006 |origyear=1977 ? Fifelfoo (talk) 20:52, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I looked at this when doing the edit. The 2006 book is the 6th edition, the revisions were done in the 2nd, 3rd and 5th editions. --Rontombontom (talk) 23:01, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Another corporate author? ""Marine Board Casualty Report…"
 * Sorry if this is something I should understand, but could could you clarify what problem you are indicating when you say "corporate author" Thanks. North8000 (talk) 20:05, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Thread for this is now on previous example. North8000 (talk) 21:38, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Multiple works conflict: Shannon is in date ascending order and Thompson is in date descending order
 * Someone fixed this.--Wpwatchdog (talk) 19:27, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Further reading: Apply references style
 * Done. --Rontombontom (talk) 09:56, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Short title doesn't match references title: NTSB accident report (1978), ; USCG casualty report (1977),
 * Done following other recommendation about corporate author; but note question about abbreviations. --Rontombontom (talk) 12:22, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Incomplete citation: item in collection used, collection exists as part of a larger work "Historical Collections of the Great Lakes", location, etc. "Great Lakes vessels online index". Bowling Green State University. Retrieved November 7, 2010.
 * Done.--Wpwatchdog (talk) 14:19, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Replace period with comma for style, terminal period required "Kantar (1998). p. 9" => "Kantar (1998), p. 9."
 * Fixed. North8000 (talk) 02:12, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Two dates? Reprint, 2nd ed? Lesstrang, Jacques (1977, 1985).
 * Checked, made 1977 origyear, noting that title changed. --Rontombontom (talk) 18:08, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Two dates in References, one date in short cite "Stonehouse (2006), p. 14."
 * Checked, made 1977 origyear, added edition. --Rontombontom (talk) 18:08, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Newspaper location per References style: Zielinski, Graeme (November 10, 2005)
 * Done.--Wpwatchdog (talk) 22:13, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Link to citation broken (multiple different citation styles or bad ref names can cause this?): Andra-Warner (2006), p. 20.
 * Fixed.--Wpwatchdog (talk) 14:29, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Bring into common style for citations: "J. Burton Ayers (propeller)". Telescope Magazine: 112. June 1961. Retrieved February 20, 2011.
 * Fixed.--Wpwatchdog (talk) 15:04, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Citation out of style, brackets; link broken: Stonehouse 1977, 2006, p. 13.
 * Fixed by replacing sfn template. --Rontombontom (talk) 18:11, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Location of publisher; location of cited material within work? Edwards, Jack (2000).
 * Done.--Wpwatchdog (talk) 19:35, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Terminal period: Lawrence (2008)
 * Done North8000 (talk) 02:16, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Newspaper location per references style: Nolan, Jenny (September 21, 2000).
 * Added; however, this ("Detroit, Michigan" for Detroit News) and most other location additions recommended are IMHO unnecessary. WP:CITE says "citations for newspaper articles typically include... city of publication, if not included in name of newspaper"; and Template:Cite news says the location parameter "should be included if the city of publication is not part of the name of the newspaper". Or, do you think the article's American "city, state" notation that calls for it? --Rontombontom (talk) 18:24, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * ISBN is null: Swayze, David (1992)
 * Fixed North8000 (talk) 21:52, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Citation is out of style; it has an author; it is part of a larger work "http://law.loyno.edu/~beisen/index.html": "Admiralty and maritime law research guide". Loyola University New Orleans Law Library. 2010. Retrieved December 25, 2010.
 * Fixed. --Rontombontom (talk) 12:15, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Journal cites in short references lack p/pp
 * An editor apparently dealt with this. --Rontombontom (talk) 12:15, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * McCosh, Cy (June 1996) lacks a location per refs style for the publisher
 * Done.--Wpwatchdog (talk) 19:21, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Not a law citation? "Ontario Heritage Act". Retrieved October 23, 2010.
 * Could you clarify what problem is being pointed out by this note?  Thanks. North8000 (talk) 14:33, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I take the quotation of the 2005 amendment should be sourced to the law itself, not to a news article. Checking the law, I noted the law was amended again in 2009, which may be used for an addition to the article; detailed notes on the article's Discussion page. --Rontombontom (talk) 23:02, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I have now re-edited the Restrictions on surveys section as a single paragraph, with modified text and sourcing. There are now five law citations. In their format, I started out with Template:Cite canlaw, but that's a broken template with non-standard style, so I rather relied on its source, an on-line quote of the McGill Guide.
 * Since laws are primary sources, following WP:PRIMARY, I tried to keep to straightforward, descriptive statements and paired most of the citations with secondary sources that report on the summarized passage of the law. Please check if the new citations are in an acceptable format. --Rontombontom (talk) 20:07, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Newspaper location? Page ref?  Staff author? "Ontario probes report of illegal dive
 * I found there was no page ref, not even staff author, only AP was given as source. However, checking all five sources for that paragraph, I think only two should be retained, and I have strong doubts about the reliability of all sources for the second part of the paragraph. My detailed arguments would blow this page, I posted them for the editors in the article's Discussion page too. --Rontombontom (talk) 23:02, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I dropped this source, having been a redundant but significantly shorter copy of the Bellerose, Dan source. In its place, and also in the place of the link for the Bellerose source (which went to a possibly copyright-violating copy in a discussion board), there is now a new Detroit Free Press source, a version of the Bellerose report credited to AP, which has an archived on-line copy Another new source, a Detroit News article from 2006 which is not on-line for free but an editor has access to it, was added. Please check if these new additions are proper. I dropped a number of other sources previously used in the section, for being unreliable for the claim it is sourced for, redundant, or behind a subscription wall. --Rontombontom (talk) 20:07, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Terminal period: Blake (2006); Johnson (2010)
 * Done North8000 (talk) 12:35, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Location in text: Charles, J.A.; Furness, M.A.; Crane, F.A.A. (1997).
 * Done.--Wpwatchdog (talk) 03:39, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Citation quality concerns, citation out of style: "The hull". Global Security/Villanova University. 2010. Retrieved December 14, 2010.
 * Deleted this citation.--Wpwatchdog (talk) 21:55, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Newspaper location, staff author?: "Detroit church broadens its scope…"
 * Done.--Wpwatchdog (talk) 03:54, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Hour Detroit appears to be a periodical name, published by Hour Media: Bulanda, George (2010).
 * Fixed.--Wpwatchdog (talk) 19:46, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Periodical location: Poulson, Daivd (January 3, 1996). ; Walsh-Sarnecki, Peggy (November 10, 2005). ; Karoub, Jeff (August 9, 2007).
 * Added location to all three.--Wpwatchdog (talk) 21:55, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Citation quality concerns; citation out of style: "SS Edmund Fitzgerald historical marker". Historical Marker Database. 2006. Retrieved December 12, 2010.
 * Replaced.--Wpwatchdog (talk) 19:45, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Citation out of style and appears incomplete: "Life ring not from the Edmund Fitzgerald". Associated Press. The Free Library. 2007. Retrieved November 16, 2010.
 * Didn't display properly because the cite news parameters agency and publisher were used, but not work. Fixed. --Rontombontom (talk) 11:44, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I can't deal with the music citations due to lack of time and expertise
 * Not an action item. As an aside, we did delete some items from that section based on sourcing strength and types, and took some heat for doing so. North8000 (talk) 03:29, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Citation link to references broken: Stonehouse (2006), p. 205.
 * Fixed North8000 (talk) 12:25, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Citation out of style (pp) Dybas, Cheryl Lyn (November 2000) Fifelfoo (talk) 04:57, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I fixed that earlier on my own. --Rontombontom (talk) 11:27, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I think there has been action on all of the noted citation issues now. --Rontombontom (talk) 20:07, 6 March 2011 (UTC)