Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/India/archive2

This is a talk page for detailed FAR critiques of the text in the India page. Each editor offering such a critique should make an independent section and place it below the last such section, but above the References section. Thank you. Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  11:58, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Culture

 * India's culture is marked by a high degree of syncretism and cultural pluralism.
 * This is a sentence that was first composed by an editor based on his or her POV about India's culture and then a search for its references was mounted. The references are quite obscure (Bangladesh Journal of Sociology) for such a basic summarizing lead sentence for the culture section.  A better approach for an opening sentence is to look at widely-used textbooks and see what they say, independent of our POV.
 * India's cultural tradition dates back to 8000 BCE and has a continuously recorded history for over 2,500 years.
 * Both citations are to obscure books. That means again that the editor who composed this sentence first constructed the sentence in consonance with his POV, and then went looking for the references.  As for the first part of the sentence, the neolithic culture of Mehrgarh, which dates to 6000 BCE, which is now in Pakistan, had more links to similar neolithic cultures in Iran and Mesopotamia than to anything contemporaneous in India.  Similarly, for the second part, "continuously recorded history" is a charged word often employed by nationalists to emphasize the antiquity of Indian culture.  But history per se was not emphasized in that culture.  To be sure, historians have extracted history from religious collections such as the Rig Veda, but very few historical texts exist and those are invariably written by foreigners.  The earliest of these goes back to soon after Alexander's invasion of India, i.e. approximately 2300 years ago.
 * Removed cultural pluralism and syncretism. Not necessary in what should be a more factual rather than opinionated summary article. Also removed the word continuously as that isn't quite correct. I think the length of the cultural history is fine because we don't really want to be in the business of portioning culture between this region or that. --rgpk (comment) 18:48, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
 * With its roots based in the Indus Valley Tradition, the Indian culture took a distinctive shape during the 11th century BCE Vedic age which laid the foundation of Hindu philosophy, mythology, literary tradition and beliefs and practices, such as dhárma, kárma, yóga and mokṣa.
 * The first part of the sentence is problematic, especially as the Hindus nationalists claim that the Indus Valley Civilization was really made by the same people who made the Vedic Age, the so-called Aryans, who, it is further claimed, are indigenous to India. The reference sounds like a travel book.  Surely we can do better for such a basic sentence!
 * It has managed to preserve established traditions while absorbing new customs, traditions, and ideas from invaders and immigrants and spreading its cultural influence to other parts of Asia, mainly South East and East Asia.
 * This is not quite accurate, although this is a widely-held conceit in India. Obviously, India didn't manage to preserve the established traditions of Buddhism, or for that matter of the Historical Vedic religion.  The first became extinct, the second was transformed; neither was preserved. An encyclopedia should not be  insinuating such sentiment.
 * Indian religions form one of the most defining aspects of Indian culture.
 * I don't know if this statement is true or not, but I would feel more comfortable if the reference used was a widely used history text, than a book on Indian religions, which, naturally, would emphasize religion.


 * Major dhármic religions which were founded in India include Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism.
 * Does an average uninformed Wikipedian, who bravely wades though all the previous sections to get to this one, really know what "dharmic" is? Why bother with such a confusing distinction in an introductory section?  Are there any "dharmic" religions that were founded outside of India? Or any un-dharmic religions that were founded in India?  Where is the mention of Sikhism, which likely has more adherents within India than either Buddhism or Jainism? Is Sikhism un-dharmic (whatever that is)?
 * Considered to be a successor to the ancient Vedic religion, Hinduism has been shaped by the various schools of thoughts based on the Upanishads, the Yoga Sutras and the Bhakti movement.
 * Rephrased. Also dropped Buddhism from the list since the section is on culture rather than on history of Indian religions. Added Sikhism. --rgpk (comment) 15:29, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * A "successor?" Considered by whom? By the source that has been cited, which reads, "Stietencron, Hinduism: On the Proper Use of A Deceptive Term, pp.1–22!!" And why does a average uninformed Wikipedian, who barely knows anything about Hinduism, care about Hinduism's antecedents? Notice too that the link has been subtly changed: ancient Vedic religion, emphasizing antiquity again.  This tendency to over-emphasize the antiquity of things Indian is a major issue with Wikipedia's India-related edits and editors.
 * I got rid of Dharmic and dropped the 'successor' statement. The source does not say that (and implies that Hinduism is largely non-vedic in character anyway). --rgpk (comment) 17:59, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, I note that there the shaped by contains two parts with different references. If this is not OR, only the complete statement needs a citation. Will try to research this. Meanwhile I've added the complete reference for stietencron. --rgpk (comment) 21:48, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Buddhism originated in India in 5th century BCE and prominent early Buddhist schools, such as Theravāda and Mahāyāna, gained dominance during the Maurya Empire.
 * Buddhism was founded in the 6th century BCE (That at least is the consensus among most historians). Furthermore, it was founded in the old India (i.e. on the Indian subcontinent); the historical Buddha was born in present-day Nepal.  Also, why are we introducing the Mauryan Empire here, when it was one of the emperors of that empire, Asoka the Great, who promoted Buddhism?  And "prominent early Buddhist schools, such as Theravāda and Mahāyāna?" What was the third prominent early Buddhist school, and what were some un-prominent early Buddhist schools?  Again this seems like nonsensical jargon introduced by some overreaching editor.
 * Buddhism entered a period of gradual decline in India 5th century CE onwards, it played an influential role in shaping Indian philosophy and thought.
 * By the time of Xuanzang's visit in the 7th century CE, Buddhism has already declined quite dramatically. I don't know I would add the "gradual," which again seems like an editor's POV.  And what is the reference "Merriam-Webster, pg. 155–157??"  A dictionary?  An encyclopedia? What year? ...
 * I got rid of this. This section is about culture, not history. --rgpk (comment) 15:29, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

and so it goes (I will annotate the rest later). I think it is this kind of POV and "listy" sentence construction (which only gets worse in the later subsections) that needs to be corrected. Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  11:46, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm with you on this one: indigenism, primordialism, etc. See Indigenous Aryans for specifics. Tijfo098 (talk) 12:05, 10 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Culture (continued):
 * Indian architecture is one area that represents the diversity of Indian culture.
 * We haven't said anything yet about the diversity of Indian culture. (We have about syncretism and cultural pluralism) Do we mean "Indian architecture is diverse?" Or does Indian architecture somehow better exemplify this diversity than the other arts?  Do we really need, "is one area that?"
 * Much of it, including notable monuments such as the Taj Mahal and other examples of Mughal architecture and South Indian architecture, comprises a blend of ancient and varied local traditions from several parts of the country and abroad.
 * Do we need to single out the Taj Mahal and make the sentence unwieldy?
 * Much of it? How much? Do we just mean Mughal architecture and South Indian architecture?
 * "comprises a blend of ancient and varied local traditions from several parts of the country and abroad" This is so general that pretty much the universe is included in it.
 * Vernacular architecture also displays notable regional variation.
 * "also?" What else displays notable regional variation? We haven't said that Mughal and South Indian architecture display notable regional variation.

More later. Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  22:23, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Considered to be the earliest and foremost "monument" of Indian literature, the Vedic or Sanskrit literature was developed from 1,400 BCE to 1,200 AD.
 * Why "monument?" I understand the pun (transitioning from architecture), but works of literature spanning 2,600 years (1400 BCE to 1200 CE) can hardly be considered a monument.
 * Are the Vedas considered literature?
 * If the span being considered is so wide, how are we calling the literature "Vedic?" (The Vedas had all been composed by the mid-first millennium BCE.)  Best to just call it Sanskrit literature.
 * "was developed from?" That's a strange passive construction. Sounds like it was planned, and its developers very deliberately stopped developing it in 1200 CE.
 * Prominent Indian literary works of the classical era include epics such as Mahābhārata and Ramayana, dramas such as the Abhijñānaśākuntalam (The Recognition of Śakuntalā), and poetry such as the Mahākāvya.
 * After claiming that the literature spanned 2600 years we are giving examples from only the "classical era."
 * What is the classical era in Sanskrit literature? The Sanskrit literature link  seems to suggest it is 3rd century CE to 8th century CE.  In other words, both the Ramayana and the Mahabharata are not really from that era (but of one slightly earlier).
 * Developed between 600 BCE and 300 AD, the Sangam literature consists 2,381 poems and is regarded as a predecessor of Tamil literature.
 * 2,381 Do we really need that kind of precision? Why are we saying 600 BCE, when the sources we cite themselves say (in the quotes we supply) that the literature begins somewhere between 1st century BCE and 1st century CE?
 * From 7th century AD to 18th century AD, India's literary traditions went through a period of drastic change because of the emergence of devotional poets such as Kabīr, Tulsīdās and Guru Nānak.
 * That's a long period of drastic change. Do we mean that there was continual drastic change during these eleven hundred years?  Or do we mean that the cumulative change registered during these eleven hundred years was drastic?
 * "India's literary traditions?" At least three of the four examples we give are from north India.
 * This period was characterised by varied and wide spectrum of thought and expression and as a consequence, medieval Indian literary works differed significantly from classical traditions.
 * This is not only an ugly sentence but utterly meaningless as well. Throw and it and say something meaningful.
 * In the 19th century, Indian writers took new interest in social questions and psychological descriptions.
 * We haven't mentioned anything earlier either about social questions or psychological descriptions. What do we mean then by "new interest?"
 * During the 20th century, Indian literature was heavily influenced by the works of universally acclaimed Bengali poet and novelist Rabindranath Tagore.
 * Really, all 20th century Indian literature can be reduced to the universally acclaimed Tagore? Sounds drastic.
 * Agree that this section is a mess. Also, I notice an attempt to provide continuity by expanding the Bhakti poets all the way back to the 7th century. The Tagore statement is odd and there is nothing about the many contemporary Indian writers writing in English (which would be of more interest to readers anyway). I'll attempt a rewrite. --rgpk (comment) 16:02, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Society and traditions

 * Traditional Indian society is defined by relatively strict social hierarchy.
 * What is "social hierarchy?" It is a euphemism for the caste system? Or is there some other kind of hierarchy at play in traditional Indian society as well?
 * Is this true? If so, I'd like to see a mainstream sociology textbook type source.
 * And what about non-traditional Indian society? What percentage of India's society is traditional?
 * The Indian caste system describes the social stratification and social restrictions in the Indian subcontinent, in which social classes are defined by thousands of endogamous hereditary groups, often termed as jātis or castes.
 * Why has the text suddenly expanded to the "Indian subcontinent?" The caste system in Muslim-countries such as Pakistan and Bangladesh is very marginal and nothing as entrenched as it is in India.  This part should really be about the Republic of India.
 * Why such a theoretical and abstract definition?
 * Nothing about the sins of the caste system?
 * Several influential social reform movements, such as the Bramho Shômaj, the Arya Samāja and the Ramakrishna Mission, have played a pivotal role in the emancipation of Dalits (or "untouchables") and other lower-caste communities in India.
 * I know there is a "however" coming in the next sentence, even so, this is a strange kind of "good news first" sentence. These three reform movements did very little as far as I can tell, certainly not a pivotal role.   Only Gandhi and later the Dalits themselves (under Ambedkar) did anything worth mentioning.
 * However, the majority of Dalits continue to live in segregation and are often persecuted and discriminated against.
 * There is too much jargon in this section. "Live in segregation" "persecuted and discriminated against?"  True, there are links there, but more evocative descriptions are needed for people who choose not to click on the links.  "Live on the outskirts of villages?" "Live in urban slums?" and so forth.
 * Traditional Indian family values are highly respected, and multi-generational patriarchal joint families have been the norm, although nuclear families are becoming common in urban areas.
 * The reference, An American's Guide to Doing Business in India, is the best we can come up with?
 * "Traditional Indian family values are highly respected" What are "traditional Indian family values?"
 * (Minor) Needs a grammatical fix ("have been the norm, although ...")
 * An overwhelming majority of Indians have their marriages arranged by their parents and other respected family members, with the consent of the bride and groom.
 * What is overwhelming? Better to have a rough percentage here.
 * "and other respected family members?" In contrast to family black sheep?
 * "with the consent of the bride and the groom?" Shouldn't it be, "with their consent?"
 * Marriage is thought to be for life, and the divorce rate is extremely low.
 * This seems to be based on a survey. It is better to present the results of that survey broadly.
 * Child marriage is still a common practice, more so in rural India, with about half of women in India marrying before the legal age of 18.
 * Change "more so" to "especially."
 * Many Indian festivals are religious in origin, although several are celebrated irrespective of caste and creed.
 * Do we need Indian festivals ? Why not simply many public holidays in India are religious holidays?
 * "Cast and creed?" This either needs to be explained or rephrased.  In Indian usage "creed" refers to religion (in contrast to its more secular meaning (i.e value system, philosophy) elsewhere).
 * Some popular festivals are Diwali, Ganesh Chaturthi, Ugadi, Thai Pongal, Holi, Onam, Vijayadashami, Durga Puja, Eid ul-Fitr, Bakr-Id, Christmas, Buddha Jayanti, Moharram and Vaisakhi.
 * "Popular?" Do we mean "widely celebrated" or "widely observed?" If so, the latter two descriptions are  more encyclopedic.  Regardless, that is still a long list of holidays.  Can we reduce their number by attempting a more qualitative description?
 * India has three national holidays which are observed in all states and union territories — Republic Day, Independence Day and Gandhi Jayanti.
 * Less confusing and shorter to say, "India's three national holidays, Republic Day, Independence Day and Gandhi Jayanti, are celebrated in all of its states and union territories."
 * It would be better to write "Gandhi jayanti" as Gandhi's birthday.
 * Other sets of holidays, varying between nine and twelve, are officially observed in individual states.
 * "Other sets of holidays?" Why not simply say, "Other holidays, varying between nine and twelve, are observed independently by individual states?"
 * Religious practices are an integral part of everyday life and are a very public affair.
 * Is this still true? Sounds dated to me.  Regardless, I'd like to see a mainstream reference for this.
 * "are a very public affair?" I thought Hinduism did not stress group observance.
 * Traditional Indian dress varies across the regions in its colours and styles and depends on various factors, including climate.
 * Again this seems like a everyday truism introduced merely as an excuse for the link "Indian dress." Surely, we can say something more meaningfully "Indian" about Indian dress.
 * Popular styles of dress include draped garments such as sari for women and dhoti or lungi for men; in addition, stitched clothes such as salwar kameez for women and kurta-pyjama and European-style trousers and shirts for men, are also popular.
 * Seems slightly dated as well. It seems, according to reports I have, in urban areas of North India, at least the large metropolitan areas, almost no women under the age of forty are wearing saris.  That seems like a startling kind of change similar to the one (with rising hemlines) that took place in Europe right after World War I.  There should be some mainstream source that speaks to these recent changes.

More later. Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  04:55, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Music, dance, theatre and cinema

 * Indian music covers a wide range of traditions and regional styles. Classical music largely encompasses the two genres – North Indian Hindustani, South Indian Carnatic traditions and their various offshoots in the form of regional folk music. Regionalised forms of popular music include filmi and folk music; the syncretic tradition of the bauls is a well-known form of the latter.
 * Need to make this less generic. Prose needs improvement.  Needs some mainstream attribution.
 * Indian dance too has diverse folk and classical forms. Among the well-known folk dances are the bhangra of the Punjab, the bihu of Assam, the chhau of West Bengal, Jharkhand, sambalpuri of Orissa , the ghoomar of Rajasthan and the Lavani of Maharashtra. Eight dance forms, many with narrative forms and mythological elements, have been accorded classical dance status by India's National Academy of Music, Dance, and Drama. These are: bharatanatyam of the state of Tamil Nadu, kathak of Uttar Pradesh, kathakali and mohiniyattam of Kerala, kuchipudi of Andhra Pradesh, manipuri of Manipur, odissi of Orissa and the sattriya of Assam.
 * Prose could be better.


 * Theatre in India often incorporates music, dance, and improvised or written dialogue. Often based on Hindu mythology, but also borrowing from medieval romances, and news of social and political events, Indian theatre includes the bhavai of state of Gujarat, the jatra of West Bengal, the nautanki and ramlila of North India, the tamasha of Maharashtra, the burrakatha of Andhra Pradesh, the terukkuttu of Tamil Nadu, and the yakshagana of Karnataka.
 * Again, the prose could be improved a little.
 * The Indian film industry is the largest in the world. Bollywood, based in Mumbai, makes commercial Hindi films and is the most prolific film industry in the world. Established traditions also exist in Assamese, Bengali, Kannada, Malayalam, Marathi, Oriya, Tamil, and Telugu language cinemas.
 * Some repetition here, plus weak prose.

This section is a little listy, and the prose needs to be improved, but there are few POV issues here. Once the prose has been polished, and the references added, it should be good to go. More soon. One question: why aren't literature and architecture also in this section (rather than in a section above)? Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  05:40, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Cuisine

 * Indian cuisine is characterised by a wide variety of regional styles and sophisticated use of herbs and spices.
 * Doesn't this also apply to French cuisine, Italian, Spanish, Chinese, Japanese, even Thai, Greek, ...? Can we say something that is a little more India-specific?
 * "Sophisticated use?" Does any international cuisine have unsophisticated use?
 * The staple foods in the region are rice (especially in the south and the east), wheat (predominantly in the north) and lentils.
 * Are we sure these are the staples? If so, why do we need two sources?  I ask because other sources say that millet is a staple as well, especially in central India. It would be easy enough to check on this from a third mainstream source.
 * Spices, such as black pepper which are now consumed world wide, are originally native to the Indian subcontinent.
 * Although this may be true, why is it such a notable feature of the cuisine that it merits mention in contrast to the techniques of Indian cooking such as tandoor, etc.?
 * Chili pepper, which was introduced by the Portuguese, is also widely used in Indian cuisine.
 * This too, an interesting history of food tidbit, is really less about the cuisine than about an item used in the cuisine. Why is the section so short?  Alternatively, if this is all we have to say about Indian cuisine, then why is it an independent section?  More later.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  05:53, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Sport

 * India's official national sport is field hockey, administered by Hockey India.
 * Why is the "official nation sport" mentioned first?
 * Why do we need to know about Hockey India? It's only an organizing body and it's Wikipedia page is a stub!
 * The Indian hockey team won the 1975 Hockey World Cup and 8 gold, 1 silver and 2 bronze medals at the Olympic games, making it one of the world's most successful national hockey teams ever.
 * Nowhere is it mentioned that India last won the Olympics Hockey in 1964. It is really its past that was glorious.  The time period of India's Olympic triumphs should be mentioned.
 * Cricket, however, is by far the most popular sport; the India cricket team won the 1983 and the 2011 World Cups, 2007 ICC World Twenty20, and shared the 2002 ICC Champions Trophy with Sri Lanka.
 * Should be in present perfect. (i.e. has won)
 * Cricket in India is administered by the Board of Control for Cricket in India (BCCI) and domestic competitions include the Ranji Trophy, the Duleep Trophy, the Deodhar Trophy, the Irani Trophy and the NKP Salve Challenger Trophy. In addition, BCCI conducts the Indian Premier League, a Twenty20 competition.
 * I don't know too much about Indian sport, especially cricket, but are the organizing bodies so notable, and does this list need to be so long. It would be better for the vast majority of Wikipedia's readers if something meaningful was said about cricket in India and its history.
 * India is home to several traditional sports which originated in the country and continue to remain fairly popular.
 * "Home to several traditional sports that originated in the country?" In contrast to "several traditional sports that originated elsewhere?" What are traditional sports?
 * This article uses the word "originated" (an ugly word if you ask me) far too often.
 * These include kabaddi, kho kho, pehlwani and gilli-danda.
 * What is the point of such an anonymous list if nothing about the nature of these sports is indicated?
 * Some of the earliest forms of Asian martial arts, such as Kalarippayattu, Yuddha, Silambam and Varma Kalai, originated in India.
 * Again the obsession with antiquity and "originated!" What are these?  What is distinctive about them?
 * The Rajiv Gandhi Khel Ratna and the Arjuna Award are India's highest awards for achievements in sports, while the Dronacharya Award is awarded for excellence in coaching.
 * This reads like an boring official litany. Are these awards really all that notable, considering we haven't said anything yet (as far as I can tell) about India's highest civilian award the Bharat Ratna.
 * Chess, commonly held to have originated in India, is regaining widespread popularity with the rise in the number of Indian Grandmasters.
 * How many Indian grandmasters are there?
 * Regaining popularity since when? When was it last popular?  When it was invented?
 * Tennis has also become increasingly popular, owing to the victories of the India Davis Cup team and the success of Indian tennis players.
 * Is tennis really that much more popular than it was 50 years ago, in the heyday of the Indian ace whose name I can't remember?
 * India has a strong presence in shooting sports, winning several medals at the Olympics, the World Shooting Championships and the Commonwealth Games.
 * Jeez. What is this, some brochure written by a sports official?  Cheesy stuff.
 * Other sports in which Indian sports-persons have won numerous awards or medals at international sporting events include badminton, boxing and wrestling.
 * I don't know anything about these sports, but such a litany sounds like grade inflation. Has India won an Olympic gold in any of these sports.  If not the announcements should be suitably modest and give the reader some perspective on these sports and their popularity.
 * Football is a popular sport in northeastern India, West Bengal, Goa, Tamil Nadu and Kerala.
 * Again, what is the point of such a mindless list? Say something about the history of soccer in India etc.
 * India has hosted or co-hosted several international sporting events, such as the 1951 and the 1982 Asian Games, the 1987, 1996 and 2011 Cricket World Cups, the 2003 Afro-Asian Games, the 2006 ICC Champions Trophy, the 2010 Hockey World Cup and the 2010 Commonwealth Games.
 * Again, I don't see the value of these "gloat" lists.
 * Major international sporting events annually held in India include the Chennai Open, Mumbai Marathon, Delhi Half Marathon and the Indian Masters. It will also host the first Indian Grand Prix in 2011 in Greater Noida.
 * The Delhi Half Marathon? Best to remove this entire sentence.

This finishes the culture section. I will write a critique of the History section next (but after a day or two). Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  07:06, 11 May 2011 (UTC)