Wikipedia talk:Five pillars/Archive 4

Helpful
That was the most helpful page that Arnoutf pointed me to! Concise yet comprehensive! StevenAR 00:40, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Pesco pointed out this page to me, he's a big help.Atomic45 07:46, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion
This page should prominently feature a link to WP:BLP, since it trumps allother rules and guidelines. Artw 22:04, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Who told you that? --Kim Bruning 15:55, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * User:CyberAnth, with the apparent endorsement of Jimbo Wales himself. Artw 07:57, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not quite that simple :-P . Though yes, you should be careful about biographies of living persons, since They Can Get Mad At Us and Do Bad Things. So don't make living people mad at us ;-) --Kim Bruning 08:28, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Update
Since WP:NOR and WP:V are now of historical interest only, having been superseded by WP:A, I've given up waiting for someone to update this page, and have boldly revised the first pillar. OK? .. dave souza, talk 14:13, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * That now seems to be a matter of debate.--Henrygb 12:27, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Use of "English"
I'm sorry to be really pedantic but under the section entitled "Wikipedia has a code of conduct:" it states that "there are 1,700,600 articles on the English Wikipedia" This is in fact a fallacy, as the majority of articles on Wikipedia are in fact written in American, not English. Could this be changed for the preservation of the English language? Thanks, Spite &amp; Malice 10:01, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * American English is a dialect of the English language. See also Manual of Style for our guidelines concerning usage of English dialects within Wikipedia. --Quiddity 19:25, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It is astonishing how easy it is to understand you when we are apparently speaking entirely different languages! —Centrx→talk &bull; 17:08, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I knew there was something we forgot when we split from England. --Smokizzy Review Me! (Please!) 21:42, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I think we need to be more reverent to the American way of doing things. Mwahcysl (talk) 15:14, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It is worth remembering that the American form of literary english is much more conservative than UK english and, consequently, is purist rather than demotic, as in the UK. Standard english is probably only available today via CBS or the BBC. There are about 400 english dialects in current use worldwide.  These include UK english (and its regional dialects) plus the great number of different vocabularies and regional dialects found in N. America (from Virginia through to Arkansas, Texas, up to Oregon and across to the W. Coast and into Canada). It is difficult to say that one region/state is speaking a different language from another.  All of them are mutually comprehensible and we have to allow for the differences.  Smokizzy (above) mentions the split from England. But did England ever (totally) split from the U.S.? Probably not.Miletus (talk) 21:01, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * "Mutually comprehensible"? Obviously, you have never come across Geordie.  Sp in ni  ng  Spark  21:50, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Elegant
simply παράδοξος 04:10, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Interwiki CS
Please, add cs:Wikipedie:Pět pilířů to the code. Thanks.
 * ✅ Danski14(talk) 20:13, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Prioritization of the Five Pillars
A lot of editors seem to be under the impression that some of the Five Pillars are, for lack of a better term, "more equal" than others. And, in fact, our own guidelines seem to codify this; note that some potentially copyrighted encyclopedic content MUST be deleted IF THE POSSIBILITY EXISTS that a free/libre alternative can be created. Note that there is no standard to actually prove the existence of this hypothetical content -- only that it may, might, or could exist. Which is fine, and all... but it seems to me pretty clear proof that "Wikipedia is free content" is more important than "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia." 'Cuz, you know, if it were an encyclopedia first, it would allow the fair use of that copyrighted content UNTIL free content was created to replace it. (There's a whole argument about how the lack of free-use encyclopedic material supposedly creates an incentive to create it... It's not my thinking, but that's how the argument goes.)

So here's what I propose: Let's prioritize the pillars. Let's make it clear that Wikipedia is about FREE CONTENT first, and actually being an encyclopedia second. This will have the added bonus of clearing up a lot of petty content disputes, clarifying Wikipedia's mission, and, triple bonus, create reams of new deletions for the much-vaunted BetacommandBot. :)

It's how things are being run; let's just make it official. Jenolen   speak it!  08:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * They are more co-equal. Think about it on the opposite side: Free content that is not encyclopedic is deleted. No matter how free your attack page, your copy of Shakespeare's Hamlet, your list of your personal favorite video games, it does not belong on Wikipedia. That is, as much as Wikipedia is about free content it is about being an encyclopedia. More so, in fact, because we do make allowances for non-free content that is essential for the encyclopedia. —Centrx→talk &bull; 17:58, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "More co-equal" is kinda' like "a little bit pregnant." They're either equal... or they're not.  And in this case, as policy shows, they're definitely not!  Can you point to a policy that would indicate encyclopedic content should be valued equally with free content?  (That is, some place where it says encyclopedic value is grounds enough for keeping something that could possibly be replaced by free/libre content?)   Jenolen    speak it!  23:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Automatic Counter
Under the fourth rule, where it says "remember that there are 1,822,704 articles on the English Wikipedia to work on and discuss," an automatic counter should be used for the number of articles on Wikipedia so it doesn't have to be constantly updated.--143.58.196.120 09:12, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * An automatic counter is used. --Eyrian 17:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * = . --Quiddity 18:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Use of non-policy/non-guidelines opinion essays in the Five Pillars.
Is the use of non-policy/non-guideline opinion essays appropriate in the Five Pillars? This is a page shown in the welcome template, and should only present to newcomers official policies/guidelines. Italiavivi 01:21, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Many pages labelled "essays" are in fact rather straight-cut descriptions. There is nothing wrong with them. Anyway, I don't see any essays listed on this page? —Centrx→talk &bull; 04:55, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It was a supporting comment to his edit earlier that day ;) --Quiddity 05:31, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * That should not be removed for being an essay, it should be removed because it is too casual and not suitable for this page. That may very well be the reason wherefore it is labelled an essay, but its removal should not per se be due to its label of essay. —Centrx→talk &bull; 05:37, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a trivia collection
This page is supposed to be a summarization of Wikipedia's policies, yet the only place "Wikipedia is not a trivia collection" is mentioned is here. I think this should be changed or removed until there is a mention of this on one of the policy pages (for example WP:NOT). --Transfinite (Talk / Contribs) 16:54, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It's been there for over a year. Why is this only coming up now? --Eyrian 17:36, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

There isn't a deadline for these sort of things. You are avoiding the argument. Where in policy is "Wikipedia is not a trivia collection" backed up? --Transfinite (Talk / Contribs) 19:08, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't try and read into my comments like that. I meant exactly what I asked, and nothing more. Why is this coming up now? It is not meant as a question of the validity, or an argument from the status quo, only an expression of puzzlement as to why, if this is an issue, it didn't come up before. --Eyrian 19:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The important thing is, Wikipedia is NOT a trivia collection.--Jimbo Wales 20:00, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * WP:NOT. Spirit, not letter. --The Raven's Apprentice (PokéNav 03:03, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * "Some issue X has not been raised in the past" does not imply "X is not an issue." Sometimes changes go unnoticed, sometimes editors are not perfectly aware of all WP policies, sometimes they just don't care, etc. Transfinite is right, there is no Wikipedia policy prohibiting trivia. --xDanielxTalk 20:22, 1 August 2007 (UTC)


 * And sometimes, new editors register and are reading this page for the very first time. Like me.  I have a netwide tendency to find old issues and (hopefully) offer a new POV.  Sometimes it is welcome, and sometimes it is deleted simply because someone has determined the amount of time which has passed since an issue has been addressed somehow means the issue is resolved or uncontestable.  Truth evolves over time, as does knowledge, and occasionally, wisdom. Glenda 69 (talk) 00:33, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The pillars transcend policy. They are what policies emerge from. --Eyrian 20:23, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The pillars attempt to summarize policy. They also, generally speaking, post-date the policies described. The page is not protected or even semi-protected, so the summary within WP:5P is in no way a superior interpretation of Wikipedia policy than any such interpretation formed by a group of editors familiar with basic policies, or for that matter even a group of registered editors and anonymous users. One does not have to be registered to participate in the 5P mini-project, nor does one have to have demonstrated knowledge of Wikipedia's policies, nor must there be any reason to believe that such a person is even well-intentioned (apart from WP:AGF). The 5P page attempts to summarize policy, but it is not any more official than what you or I have to say about policy. --xDanielxTalk 22:31, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

It is indeed true that Wikipedia is not a trivia collection. But that one little line is not actually backed up by any policy (WP:NOT would include it if it truly was a consensus view). However, "Delete per WP:FIVE" is being habitually chanted now on WP:AFD to delete just about anything. In this respect, it becomes shorthand for "Delete per some policy somewhere, and I don't care if that policy doesn't exist".

This page should not be cited as though it were policy. Cite the underlying policies only.--Father Goose 21:32, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That's really just Wikilawyering. If something is against the principles of Wikipedia (as codified here), then it should be dealt with. --Eyrian 21:39, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * "The Five Pillars support my views, end of discussion" is a turbocharged example of Wikilawyering. If you're working from a principle, state the principle.  Don't cite the page as though it were Law inviolate and inscrutable.  Otherwise it's like saying "The Bible says so!"--Father Goose 22:04, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, since this discussion has started up again, I'll give my 2 cents. First, to answer Eyrian's question, I did start this discussion due to all the AfDs.  My problem is that the word "trivia" is undefined here, and has been used as a synonym for "I don't like it" in recent AfDs.  The word trivia originally pointed to Notability, but now points to Avoid trivia sections.  I was looking to remove the vague word trivia with something more precise from pages tagged as policy (i.e. WP:NOT or WP:NOT). --Transfinite (Talk / Contribs) 03:21, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * As an aside, User:Eyrian has nominated an article for deletion that is several months older than this page, Adolf Hitler in popular culture, so I don't see how age is a factor here. --Transfinite (Talk / Contribs) 03:31, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Need
There's no need for this page. Wikipedia would work without any imposed rules other than allowing everyone to edit, etc, as in self-regulation (that link is not good, though; capitalism may be better). A.Z. 21:44, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * If you think that's the case, start with the pages in Category:Wikipedia official policy and Category:Wikipedia guidelines. The five pillars is just a simple, general explanation of what Wikipedia is about, which is at a minimum appropriate, whether in this form or in another. —Centrx→talk &bull; 02:09, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Each person can interpret Wikipedia their own way. I think that general explanations of what Wikipedia is about belong to essays, not to a single "official" page. I, for instance, dislike NPOV, and I think this policy as it is right now does more harm than good. General explanations written by me would not include it as a core aspect of the encyclopedia. (In fact, I think there should be no official policies nor official guidelines, only essays. WP:POINT, WP:AGF, and WP:BOLD, for instance, are great suggestions in many situations, and I think they help Wikipedia. I read WP:POINT and I have chosen a number of times not to disrupt Wikipedia to make a point because it makes sense, not because it's a policy/guideline.) People can choose to write from a "neutral point of view" because it makes sense and because it makes the encyclopedia better. The page about NPOV should focus on explaining why it's good that Wikipedia be written from a "neutral point of view" (which it doesn't do at all), not on saying that it is NON-NEGOTIABLE. People fight and argue and acuse each other of being POV, and that's bad, because people miss the point, which is only to write a good encyclopedia. A.Z. 23:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * While explaining why policies are good is certainly an excellent idea, Wikipedia should have some hard rules about what it means to be an encyclopedia. Otherwise, the whole project will be subject to massively inappropriate drift. --Eyrian 23:42, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you! I think that the rules being softer would not cause an inappropriate drift. I think that letting everyone edit would be enough a non-negotiable rule (is this good grammar, by the way?). This is just my opinion. A.Z. 01:07, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Non-encyclopedic articles are deleted, non-neutral articles are revised, non-free content is deleted, disruptive users are banned, and anyone is free to edit. This is how it is and how it ought to be in order for Wikipedia to be a free, openly editable encyclopedia, which is its essence. If you have a problem with the neutral point of view policy specifically, bring it up at WP:NPOV. The neutral point of view policy is central to having a "good encyclopedia" when diverse, disagreeing persons are editing it. I agree that all policy and guideline pages should expain the justification for their "rules", as that is the best way to convince people and prevent ignorant or misguided subsequent changes to policy. —Centrx→talk &bull; 01:15, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm glad we all agree about something. Unfortunately, I'm on a wikibreak and don't have time to bring this up at the policies' talk pages.


 * I agree that non-encyclopedic articles should be deleted, non-"neutral" articles should be revised, and so on. I just feel that things would be best without official policies and guidelines that tell people what to do. To me, they don't seem to help. A.Z. 01:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * So, uh, can you clarify this? Wikipedia isn't designed to be what "people" want; it's designed to be an encyclopedia. That's what the people who pay for the servers are paying for, and that's what visitors expect. The various policies are about what's necessary to maintain a collaborative encyclopedia. --Eyrian 02:57, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what you think is wrong with my comment. A.Z. 22:57, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia would become an indiscriminate collection of information in no time if there are no rules Corpx 01:11, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I think it would actually stop containing any meaningful information whatsoever, eventually. Fortunately, I didn't propose the elimination of rules, but only the elimination of policies and guidelines. Rules would keep existing in people's brains. If people want to build an encyclopedia, they'll do it even if there's not a policy saying so. A.Z. 01:55, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You're demonstrably wrong. --Eyrian 02:31, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is edited for the readers' benefit, not the editors'
I think we should state the obvious here, that "Wikipedia is edited for the readers' benefit, not the editors'." I think this is a fundamental principle that is often lost in conflicts between editors, and it would serve the project to put a reminder here. Dhaluza 02:14, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Second that.  → Lwalt ♦ talk 04:08, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, we can't gauge "the will of the readers" unless we can get them to speak up about what they want. The few that do make themselves heard by commenting here on Wikipedia are, as a result, editors themselves.--Father Goose 05:13, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Editors are readers too, when they're reading rather than editing. It's not a question of one Wikipedia patron type vs. another. We can include a statement that communicates where Wikipedia's priorities lie -- in the production of something to be read, or in the production of something to be edited. Of course we can usually do the one without adversely affecting the other, but there do arise arguments on occasion in which having the priority clearly set in policy would be useful.  Equazcion •✗/C • 00:09, 17 Jan 2008 (UTC)

Editors are (potential) readers and readers are (potential) editors, like, welcome to Web 2.0. --Kim Bruning (talk) 02:37, 17 January 2008 (UTC) (wait, isn't web 2.0 SO last year already? I must be getting old)

interwiki link to te
Please add interwiki link to the telugu wikipedia te:వికీపీడియా:ఐదు మూలస్తంభాలు. __Mpradeep 16:02, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

✅  Mel sa  ran  16:04, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * How does one go about getting pretty colors in my user name ? Is there a tutorial ? Mwahcysl (talk) 15:18, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

The origin and meaning of "Wikipedia is not a trivia collection"
For background, see my analysis on the origin of the phrase "Wikipedia is not a trivia collection" in this page. As a result of that analysis, I decided to be bold and change the sentence to reflect what I believe was the original intent of that phrase, to say "Wikipedia is not a collection of non-notable trivia." I was quickly reverted by Eyrian, who is using this phrase as a justification (among others which I believe are equally as tenuous) to delete "in popular culture" articles and other material which this editor deems "trivial", and to change WP:NOT to add a section corresponding to "Wikipedia is not a trivia collection". The edit summary simply says "rv; intent has changed"; this seems to imply that this editor believes that even notable trivia does not belong Wikipedia. However, for something which documents the "pillars" of Wikipedia, intent should not change without clear consensus to do so. This document is intended to be a summary of existing policies and guidelines, not a basis from which to form new policies. So, per WP:BRD, I would like to open a discussion about the meaning of "Wikipedia is not a trivia collection", what it means, whether it should be part of the five pillars, whether it should be reworded, and whether there is consensus to significantly change policies and guidelines based on what was originally simply a restatement of notability guidelines followed by a few copyedits. See also the discussion above. DHowell 23:14, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Your are being self contradictory. You claim that things should revert to original intent, and be as the pillars were before. Yet, before, the pillars were a statement of Wikipedia's fundamental principles that guided the formation of policy. Strict traditionalism will lead to such problems. The fact is, Jimbo has said that Wikipedia is not a trivia collection. While I am aware that always taking such things as law can have disadvantages, when speaking about fundamental principles of Wikipedia, I find them to be an excellent place to start. There is no such thing as notable trivia; that is a contradiction. --Eyrian 23:53, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * There are, unfortunately, such things as notable facts in "trivia" sections, and trivia itself is a matter of context; a given fact may be trivial to one subject but centrally important to another. I'm not supporting either version of the wording at this time, but I do assert that "trivia" itself is a troublesome word that can be very easily misapplied.--Father Goose 04:41, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If we really want to go back to true original intent, we could go back to the first version of the five pillars, which says absolutely nothing about "trivia". The point is that the five pillars never said anything about trivia collections until mid-2006, and many of the so-called "trivia collection" articles being deleted or proposed for deletion existed long before this. And as far as I know, Jimbo didn't say "Wikipedia is not a trivia collection" until a few weeks ago. If the five pillars represent "fundamental principles", then they should not be changed without a absolutely clear consensus. If you believe there is no such thing as "notable trivia", then fine, as long as you are defining "notable" the way that consensus has defined it (Notability). But "Wikipedia is not a trivia collection" is being used as an excuse to delete notable information, such as "in popular culture" articles where the subject's impact on popular culture has been well-noted by multiple reliable sources. It is also being used to remove relevant facts about notable subjects, even though the "notability guidelines do not directly limit article content", and the triva guideline says not to remove such items unless they are "especially tangential or irrelevant". The problem is that whether something is "trivia" or not is often a matter of mere opinion; we have no objective definition of "trivia" like we have for "notability". Something subject to such widely varying opinions really ought not be a part of "fundamental principles" of a project which is supposed to be based on consensus.
 * For another perspective on "fundamental principles" which have been guiding this project, see the original version of Wiki is not paper, particular the section "No size limits", with which Jimbo said he agreed with completely. Based on certain things he's said lately, I don't know if he would agree with this any more, but many people contributing to Wikipedia still do. DHowell 20:33, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I've decided to remove this bit for now. As best as I can tell, there is general consensus for two positions related to "trivia": "Wikipedia is not a trivia collection" does not describe either of these. For the first one - Trivia sections suggests that Wikipedia is not a list of trivia, but it may indeed be a collection of it (in prose form). For the second one - the word "trivia" in common usage does not just refer to unimportant facts, but to any sort of miscellaneous information. Therefore, using the word "trivia" here may be misleading.
 * 1) It is better to integrate miscellaneous information into other sections of an article than to keep it as a single section.
 * 2) There are facts that may be too unimportant to list on Wikipedia.

I think we shold move towards adding something along the lines of "there may be information that is too unimportant to be included in Wikipedia". --- RockMFR 17:27, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, when I added the word trivia to the Five Pillars, I did not mean that "Wikipedia must not contain any trivia." It was intended to be a reminder that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information and that "trivia"&mdash;meaning facts that are non-notable or irrelevant in that context&mdash;is not encyclopedic. Given that Wiki is not paper, the point at which facts should be omitted is probably far more "trivial" than the common usage of the word would dictate. Since it has proven to be misleading and is ambiguous at best, we should omit the term "trivia" from the Five Pillars. The present guidelines, which encourage the creation of sub-articles and integration of facts into relevant sections, are most reasonable. __ø(._. ) Patrick("\(.:...:.)/")Fisher 22:35, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

NPOV
(Since this has been in place since this page began, I understand that this suggestion may be a bit controversial.)

I think the NPOV pillar should be merged with Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It's about content (and even duplicates two of the links).

Something like this:

Once this is agreed upon, we can discuss what policy "group" (if any) should replace it as a pillar. - jc37 18:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's been 5 days, which is the length of time of an XfD, and there has been no comment whatsoever, so I'm going to go ahead and be bold, and implement.

The sentence I proposed in the example above: comes from this at WP:NOR: That said, I think I'm going to merge the two even closer for clarity:
 * All articles must follow the neutral point of view, verifiability, and no original research policies.
 * NPOV, V, and NOR are Wikipedia's three principal content policies. Since NPOV, V, and NOR complement each other, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should try to familiarize themselves with all three.
 * All articles must follow Wikipedia's three principal content policies: Neutral point of view, Verifiability, and No original research.

Since we've historically had 5 pillars, I think that the obvious cantidate as a replacement pillar is Consensus. It's a facilitator, not etiquette. This also provides a better place for the notes about Wikipedia not being a democracy or anarchy, since those aren't about content.

Thus the following text:

Nearly all of the above text was copied directly from the linked pages.

By adding this, we can describe Wikipedia using the five pillars in a single sentence:
 * Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that anyone can edit, built by consensus, etiquette, and, if necessary, ignoring all rules.

I think that that about sums it up : ) - jc37 04:04, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Tentatively, I agree with these changes. Well-bolded.--Father Goose 03:47, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikinews
In the first pillar, there's a sentence basically saying that content for dictionaries, newspapers, primary sources, etc should go to the sister wiki's. Wiktionary and Wikisource are linked here, but Wikinews isn't. (From newspapers, that is). Is there a reason why not? Best, -- B figura (talk) 05:10, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Neither of the other links are to sister projects either. Though to be honest, that doesn't sound like a bad idea. - jc37 06:50, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but after looking at it, I think it might be more useful to have the Wikipedia_is_not_x links, since that's what the sentence is discussing. (And I'm not sure how I missed the fact that the links weren't to sister projects.) And if memory serves, I think the Wikipedia_is_not_x articles contain links to the relevant sister projects. Best, -- B figura (talk) 14:06, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Problems in recent re-writing
Here is a summary of the major problems and downright errors in this version:


 * Where before the five pillars were a plain-language description of what Wikipedia is, it was recently morphed into another arcane policy page with Wikipedia-speak and a list of references to other policy pages that the user must read in order for the user to understand the five pillars and for some of the sentences to even make sense. For example, "Wikipedia's three principal content policies are neutral point of view, verifiability, and no original research. Since they complement each other, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should familiarize themselves with all three." This comes directly from a paragraph added to those pages several months ago; while it may be accurate, it does not belong in the five pillars. The newly added consensus pillar did not explain at all how consensus works, the only way to understand it would be to go read all the policy pages, which is antithetical to the purpose of the five pillars. Where before there was a solid, easy to understand description of the neutral point of view, now there is nothing whatsoever about neutral point of view except a link to WP:NPOV.


 * Free content means that the content on Wikipedia is available under a free license and may be free copied and redistributed, etc. The explanation of "free content" is not "Articles can be changed by anyone, and no individual owns any specific article." That is a description of the wiki process, not a description of free content. The previous sentence that "Recognize that articles can be changed by anyone and no individual controls any specific article; therefore, any writing you contribute can be mercilessly edited and redistributed at will by the community." was a subsidiary description of one of the effects of Wikipedia being free content, using long-standing standard language, not a description of "free content".


 * Consensus is a means to accomplish the building of the encyclopedia. For the same reason that you might think that "neutral point of view" does not warrant its own pillar because it is subsidiary to "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia", "consensus" also does not warrant its own pillar because it is subsidiary to "Wikipedia has a code of conduct", or even more generally "Wikipedia is a wiki". "Neutral point of view" is more important than consensus--consensus is a means for producing NPOV--and NPOV is the status quo that has been on this page since the beginning. If NPOV should be merged, we do not need to artificially create another pillar, an inferior pillar, to take its place.


 * If NPOV is merged, it needs a comprehensive plain-language description, not just an unexplained link to another page in a list of "official policies".


 * Note that there are several internal problems with the description of consensus, even if it belonged as a pillar.

—Centrx→talk &bull; 21:08, 4 November 2007 (UTC)


 * (Answering without actually looking at the page history)


 * In the ReOrg, I tried to do as little "re-writing" as possible, just reorganising what was there, or adding sentences from existing pages.
 * The text has been edited since then, obviously.


 * There are many ways to break up the policies and guidelines. The pillars as they stood before were about: Content, content, GDFL/anyone can edit, etiquette, and IAR. So to me, merging the two content pillars together seemed obvious, as was having a pillar for consensus. Consensus isn't etiquette, and is an important part of the "Wiki-way" on Wikipedia. And that discussions aren't voting is probably one of the biggest confusions for newbies.


 * While I understand your concerns about NPOV, by that measure, then we should describe all the links on this page. Especially, OR, and V.


 * But can we do that without this page becoming so lengthy as to be not as useful?


 * In looking back over the previous form of the 5P, what sentences which were removed or edited are you most concerned about?


 * I'd be more than happy to see the text be easier/clearer for newbies. - jc37 22:11, 4 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I am not referring to your changes specifically, simply to what has changed in the past one or two months. Regardless of who did it, the text has been substantially altered in certain places such that formerly plain language is now obscured or deleted, such that certain aspects are now erroneous or misleading, and such that the quality and clarity of the prose is inferior.
 * While "Content" is a sufficiently general division, "Etiquette" etc. are too specific; they are not of the same order as "Content" and they do not comprehensively include all of Wikipedia. The basic, all-inclusive logical division of Wikipedia is free, wiki, encyclopedia. The encyclopedia is the end produced, freeness is the prime defining quality of the product itself outside of its encyclopedianess (necessary for completeness), and the wiki and the ways of the wiki are the means by which it is produced. "Consensus", "Conduct", and "IAR" all fall under "wiki". "IAR" has some special properties because it contradicts the concept of rules and exists outside of the rule structure, which is why it can warrant a separate pillar, but "Conduct" and "Consensus" do not each warrant an individual pillar any more than "Verifiability" and "NPOV" each warrant an individual pillar. So, the former pillars were Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia, Free, Wiki, Wiki*. The new pillars have become Encyclopedia, Wiki, Wiki, Wiki, Wiki*. "Free" is gone because that pillar was turned on its head to make it about "free editing" rather than "free content".
 * First of all, this page does not exist to make links and then describe those links. The page needs to stand by itself, and formerly did stand by itself. Previously, the five pillars did describe all of the main factors, in plain English which required no prior knowledge of Wikipedia, with the exception of "edit wars" and "three-revert rule" under code of conduct, which are not strictly needed at all and the context of which is clear, and "no original research" under encyclopedia, which should be described better though it may be clear just from the words "no original research". "Verifiability" is described, with statements about accuracy, verifiable authoritative sources, and citing sources.
 * The newer version is actually longer than the long-standing version. Also, we should not be constrained to have five pillars. We do not need to create another pillar in order to merge NPOV, and if five pillars are deemed necessary, then NPOV is the one to keep: It is of greater importance than consensus--consensus serves NPOV,--it is a Foundation issue, and it has been on this page from its beginning.
 * I am concerned about nearly everything that was changed:
 * "written for the benefit of its readers": This presumes to impose reasons on why people edit Wikipedia and is irrelevant to the fundamentals of Wikipedia. It is perfectly good if someone writes on Wikipedia in order to research and learn a topic, or in order to make a comprehensive repository of human knowledge, without regard to generic "readers".
 * "Wikipedia's three principal content policies are neutral point of view, verifiability, and no original research. Since they complement each other, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should familiarize themselves with all three.": None of this belongs on the five pillars, as mentioned above.
 * "Cite references from a reliable source": Better grammar needed, and it is more direct to simply say "Cite authoritative sources" (this is another instance where "reliable sources" is Wikipedia jargon specific to WP:RS that is less helpful than the standard "authoritative sources".
 * "avoid conflicts of interest": This may be rather distracting from the purpose of the five pillars. The five pillars do not need to have a link to every policy and guideline. In any event, it is tacked on to the previous sentence and does not belong there.
 * "Wikipedia is not a trivia collection": This was removed without explanation and needs to be re-added. Also, the rest of that sentence used to have links to each individual relevant section of WP:NOT, but the new version links only once to that page and requires the reader to search through it, if they notice its relevance to the items listed in the sentence at all.
 * "Content that would be appropriate in a dictionary, a newspaper,...": This is redundant (and longer). The previous version was much shorter and direct.
 * "Wikipedia is free content...": This whole section was turned on its head erroneously, as mentioned above. Also, several specific word choices and sentence structures were changed so that they are not as precisely accurate and as smoothly read as before.
 * "Wikipedia works by building consensus...": Even if this section belonged, it needs to be written so that it stands by itself and is in plain English. Right now, the sentences only exist as connectors between links. Aside from not being appropriate for the Five pillars, it leads to non-sequitur sentences. Also, the heavy discussion of polls and voting actually makes voting and polls seem more legitimate; specific issues like this do not belong in the Five pillars.
 * "Wikipedia has a code of conduct...": This pillar has also morphed into simply a way of connecting links together, not a description of conduct on Wikipedia with links as potential helpers for further information. Where before it started with an ordinary, clear sentence that described civil conduct and that did not even have one link in it, now it jumps right into Assume good faith. That's not a description of a fundamental pillar of Wikipedia; it's just a list of links.
 * "Wikipedia does not have firm rules...": This section was simply written better before, and eight-word links are not a good thing.
 * How to organize the page into what and how many pillars is a separate issue, but the grammatical, diction, prose changes were unnecessary and had a negative effect. —Centrx→talk &bull; 23:39, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Some of your concerns were added at least as far back as August. For comparitive use, I'll use this version. It's the edit right before the edit which added: "written for the benefit of its readers", which you had/have concerns about.

So taking your points in some semblance of order:
 * While I agree that some descriptiveness would be nice, I hoesntly think that this page is more a set of links than a descriptive page. And I think that it does so effectively, for the most part, though it, as any page, could use some editing for clarity.
 * It would seem that you're most concerned about the loss of the "simplified" explanation of NPOV:
 * "...which means we strive for articles that advocate no single point of view. Sometimes this requires representing multiple points of view; presenting each point of view accurately; providing context for any given point of view, so that readers understand whose view the point represents; and presenting no one point of view as "the truth" or "the best view"."
 * Not to give an WP:ALLORNOTHING statement here, but really, if we have simplified explanations of NPOV, we should have one of at least the rest of our content trifecta (OR and V). And if we have simplified versions of those, then why not the other policies? Oh, but wait, we have such as page: Simplified ruleset. and it has a link at the bottom of this very page! So no, I don't think we should duplicate that page. Though I do think that it could probably use a restructure.
 * The goal of this page should be to present the tools (policies and guidelines) which the newbie will need the most, the soonest, and in the most succinct way possible. See Template:Welcome. Now compare that to Template:Welcomeg. And this page is the first link on Template:Welcome. So it should be able to give the newbie what they need. And the 5P is a good way to elucidate that.


 * I agree that the merging of the two concepts of "free content" and "articles can be edited by anyone" into a single pillar hasn't been done very well. More than any other part, the text here needs rewriting.


 * Consensus vs etiquette. These two should be separate because the are two entirely different things. One is about user interaction, the other is about how discussions/debates are resolved. Neither is about encyclopedic content.


 * And I'm not going to get involved in a debate of "what's more important than what". All the policies should be taken equally. The 5 pillars are just an arbitrary way of breaking them up into "bite-sized" chunks, making them easier for newbies to "digest" (learn). It's merely a matter of attempting to group the P&Gs by 5 general "themes".


 * You mentioned that consensus could use some editing for clarity (paraphrasing your comments). How would you suggest? Presuming the general theme of that pillar is "discussion resolution", and the WP:NOT examples that relate to that, what would you suggest?


 * And for your specific points:


 * I'd agree that the whole first section could be broken down into several themed sections. But at some point, we begin to duplicate WP:NOT. As a test, I tried to remove the content trifecta from the first pillar, and ended up moving everything to that new pillar, since all the remaining links were also about content, and all led right back to those three. I thought about adding a link to WP:BLP as well (and still may), but it had the same "problem" (if we want to call it that), in that it's wholly immersed in the three content policies, which, I presume, is just as it should be.


 * Etiquette is the best general page I seem to be able to find for describing how Wikipedians should interact. It's more general than WP:CIVIL, and it includes it. (Noting that I wasn't the one who initially added that as the link.) But the theme of this pillar is user interaction, not just "being nice", but rather "how do we positively communicate?" And I think "code of conduct" is rather poor wording, since really, that describes the whole page. (And indeed, someone has recently linked CoC to the P&G page.) So I think the problem there is more that the introductory sentence needs to be changed in some way.


 * I wholly disagree that this page "formerly did stand by itself". Even its first version was a set of links.


 * For the rest of your points, I'll just add the disclaimer that I may or may not have made the edits that you're talking about, so my responses are just dealing with the text itself.


 * I'll have to find it, but I seem to recall "somewhere" that Wikipedia is for the benefit of its readers


 * The content trifecta should be a part of the 5 pillars.


 * There are several links that I suppose could be culled out as unnecessary for an overview for newbies. But just as you're concerned about NPOV, so too others may be concerned about their favourite policies.


 * Trivia seems to have been replaced by "indiscriminate collection of information". Which is probably more accurate, (and less polarising, given that the question of "what is trivia" is currently under debate).


 * The sister projects section needed its own sentence. It just was rather confusing as a part of the lengthy NOT sentence.


 * The rest I think already responded to above. - jc37 19:46, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * If you think that the description of NPOV was flawed or excessive, the solution to that is not to eliminate it entirely and replace it with a simple link and no description whatsoever.
 * This page is a description of the fundamental principles, or pillars, of Wikipedia. It is not a simplified introduction to newbies, and it is not a summary of "the rules". In an ideal sense, policies follow from these principles. The principles are not "the rules". If you want to make a simplified introduction for newbies, create a new page or go to Introduction.
 * The free content pillar does not need re-writing. The previous version was fine, and superior to the version it has been replaced with. Why do you not put back the previous, better version at least temporarily, rather than idly speak about re-writing it? —Centrx→talk &bull; 04:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * "better" is subjective. And, I have been involved in the page, I've asked you several times to show some ways on this talk page in which the entries could be "improved". And thus far you've declined, preferring to instead just say that you liked "the old version" better. As I read your comments, I wonder if perhaps you could benefit from the advice you post. And if you really would like to get technical, this page has absolutely nothing to do with what the policies actually are. As stated on this page, the policies of Wikipedia predate this page, it's merely a general listing. And even the original version of this page called it a "summary" ("...summed up...") This is just a guess, but I think you're more "hung up" on what you'd like this page to be than what it is: "pillars that define Wikipedia's character. These can be summed up in a few short sentences each" - That said, I'm still going to attempt to discuss your concerns with you, in the hopes that perhaps from this collaboration the pillars will gain in descriptiveness while still hopefully remaining succint. - jc37 10:48, 10 November 2007 (UTC)


 * These pillars are not arbitrarily selected. They are fundamental, general principles of Wikipedia.
 * I am not convinced that the consensus section should be there at all. The point is that even if you think it should be there, the present version should not be, and it should not be left in its present form on the page.
 * Specific points:
 * The first section does not need to be broken down into themed sections that turn the general pillars into specific delineations of every policy and guideline. The pillars are a general description.
 * If you mean Etiquette, specific kinds of politeness are not required on Wikipedia; it is merely necessary that people be civil which does not require that they even communicate with each other. Etiquette falls under Civility, as Civility is the more general and necessary policy, and for that reason is a policy not a guideline. But the specific facts of these pages does not matter, because the five pillars are about the general principles of Wikipedia.
 * Links are not in themselves a problem. The problem is that where before the links existed to provide further information for the sentences; in the re-write the sentences exist only to string together the links. If the links were removed from the page and the sentences were presented to someone not familiar with Wikipedia, perhaps someone from 1990, the page needs to still make complete sense. With three specific exceptions where it was weak but still understandable, the previous version did that; the new version almost entirely does not.
 * Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Necessarily, being an encyclopedia benefits people who want to read the articles in the encyclopedia. There would be no point in saying such a thing. What the statement said was that Wikipedia is written for the benefit of its readers, which imposes a will upon its editors that at best is not necessary to explain the general principles of Wikipedia and at worst is downright false.
 * Explaining that writing in a neutral point of view and having verifiable, accurate sourcing in Wikipedia is appropriate for this page, and was previously present here. That does not require naming a "content trifecta" in a legalistic sentence copied from policy pages.
 * NPOV is not my "favorite" policy, and if you do not think that the principle of neutral point of view should have its own pillar that may very well be right, but that does not require that it be replaced with some inferior principle. Also, again, this is not a listing of policies.
 * "indiscriminate collection of information" was always present in this page, alongside the mention of "trivia". It may very well be the case that a negative list is not necessary to describe Wikipedia as encyclopedia, but this was simply a deletion of a single, cherry-picked item.
 * —Centrx→talk &bull; 04:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The pillars are an arbitrary grouping. Anyone can select a way to group the policies. And as a matter of fact several pages do just that. (Trifecta is just one such page.)
 * What are your specific concerns about the consensus pillar? I get that you don't like "something" about it, besides the fact that you question it even being there.
 * I think I have to disagree about your points about links. Linking is a key thing on Wikipedia. If you don't know how to click on a link, you're pretty much going to be lost on the internet, much less Wikipedia. That said, I'd be interested in your thoughts about what such sentences could look like.
 * I'm not sure I agree with your comments about readers, but then I'm not sure I understood your reasoning. Could you clarify?
 * I think that the sentence is clear. And it's clear that the three are indispensible from each other. And if this page is showing "the basics" then all three should be here. Though again, I would be interested in your thoughts as to how they could be presented differently.
 * I don't think it's a good idea to get into a debate here about which policies one may or may not consider "inferior".
 * And no, it hasn't always been on this page, and neither has trivia, as shown here.
 * Anyway, I'll entreat you once again: rather than continue reverting the version that's now been "up" for several weeks, without a single opposer (until you now, of course), let's continue to try discussion. - jc37 10:48, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Trifecta is pillars 1, 3, and 5. The grouping it uses is the same as here, it just excludes certain pillars. If you really think it is arbitrary, then you have no basis for wanting to include consensus.
 * I have explained in detail why a consensus pillar in general is not a principle appropriate for the five pillars and why the specific consensus pillar you added is not a plain-language description appropriate for the five pillars.
 * Please read what I said about links.
 * It is not a fundamental principle of Wikipedia that editors must write with any readers in mind. It is perfectly acceptable that an editor write a neutral, accurate encyclopedia article for his own private reasons.
 * V, NPOV, and OR do belong here, but that does not mean that they belong here in the form of a non-descript legalism.
 * I have already explained why consensus is inferior to NPOV. If you disagree, explain why. Also, there is nothing per se wrong with inferiority; subordinate might be a less loaded term for it.
 * The mention of trivia has been in the page for 18 months, since, and you have yet provided no reason for deleting it.
 * This is not a highly trafficked page, and your changes are drastic. It does take a while for people to notice changes. Also, you are reverting without even incorporating changes that you agreed would be better. —Centrx→talk &bull; 18:15, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

"Pillars"
In looking over the pillars, I think the best way to define the themes would be to list the Foundation issues, and Trifecta, while looking over the Statement of principles

This gives us:


 * Content - FI: #1; Tri #1; (And SoP #1, somewhat.)
 * Openness - SoP (all of them, but specifically #1, #3, #5, and #6); FI: #2 and #4
 * Decision mechanism - FI #3 (And SoP #4 and #7, somewhat.)
 * Be polite and respectful - SoP #2, #7, and #8; Tri #2
 * IAR - SoP #1; Tri #3

Look rather like the 5 pillars we now have.

The only thing that was "left off", was FI#5, which has to do with who has authority. (And probably shouldn't be a part of this page, except as it is, a "see also" link at the bottom to Foundation issues.) - jc37 20:21, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Do note that the vast majority of decisions on Wikipedia occur without any reference to consensus as any sort of distinct idea. The decision mechanism in all but the most unusual situations is to simply do whatever is appropriate in order to write a good article, which is generally pretty obvious. —Centrx→talk &bull; 04:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree. XfD discussions specifically come to mind. But that aside, I'm merely listing from those extant pages. What's your concern? You don't like consensus? - jc37 10:48, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreement or opposition to a change does not come down to whether I "like consensus" or whether NPOV is my "favorite policy". Simply, consensus is not a fundamental principle of Wikipedia and most decision-making occurs without such an entity, whereas the neutrality principle is required in every article without exception and ideally in every discussion and policy. —Centrx→talk &bull; 18:18, 10 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Before we continue, would you clarify:
 * "Simply, consensus is not a fundamental principle of Wikipedia and most decision-making occurs without such an entity..."
 * I look forward to your clarification. - jc37 (talk) 10:45, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Title Possible Offense
(note: I copied this discussion to the Village Pump Policy page, as I think it is important and not receiving notice here. Kevin Murray (talk) 18:52, 16 November 2007 (UTC))

To Whom it May Concern:

I represent the Islamic Information Center (IIC) on a volunteer basis, and they asked me to contact you (whoever that may be) as to a possible violation upon our principle religion regarding both the Quran and relation to the modern world today. Unfortunately, I didn't see any phone number to contact, so I wrote in discussion - as Jim Wales suggested on C-SPAN for independent organizations to contact Wikipedia. The problem is this articles (or policies) title as a basis of the five pillars of Islam. We don't consider such actions hostile towards the Muslim community, however we do ask it be changed to prevent any possible confusion in Muslims relations with Wikipedia - to something more neutral.

To discuss this further, please contact me at

jarmin@yahoo.com

Thanks,

Josh Armin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.105.111.65 (talk) 00:07, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


 * If we went around changing every article that would/might offend Muslims then we would be in direct breach of the second pillar "Wikipedia has a neutral point of view," by submitting to one groups claim to offence not to mention we would lose all sense of accuracy and credibility to wikipedia. Its been argued over and over, especially on articles such as Aisha that wikipedia does not bend or change to Islam. Its about facts and knowledge and I highly doubt and unsigned comment by someone claiming to be from the IIC (even though you list a yahoo email address NOT an IIC one) is going to do anything constructive. Thats my two cents --Curuxz 10:15, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * In away I agree with Curuxc and we must be cautious about pandering to social pressures and special interest groups. However, I see legitimate concern in this case.  Was it random chance that we named this policy the Five Pillars, or were we emulating Islam.  I see no offense intended, rather I see a potential compliment.  But if offense is being taken, why not modify our title.  We are a young enough project that we can easily adapt.   Kevin Murray (talk) 18:48, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * People are always offended by something. A pillar is a pillar. Besides, if you really want to get grammatically philosophical, I ASSUME the Quran was not written in English, so whatever word they used happened to be best suited/correlative to the English word for 'pillar.' We are using an English word which is associated with an Islamic ideal. If Muslims decide that the concept of 'Five' correlates with the English word of 'Wikipedia' perhaps we should just rename the project. the_undertow talk  20:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * As the author of this page I can confirm that the name was not based on the Five Pillars of Islam. Neutralitytalk 06:03, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. "Five Pillars" is quite a clear - most likely accidental - reference to Islam. I too propose that the name be changed to something which does not have any connotations, and is purely straightforward, i.e. "5 Basic Rules" - it still gets the message across, but without involving religions and their doctrines. Besides, one of the great things of Wikipedia is that a change can easily be made to something major, like the name of the basic guidelines. Few other encyclopedias could do that, so I think us, as Wikipedians, should embrace that freedom.(Bonzai273 (talk) 05:34, 30 May 2008 (UTC))

This is not helped by the hatnote on the Five pillars of Islam article which clearly says that this IS Wikipedia's version of the islamic five pillars. I'm going to remove it right now.  Sp in ni ng  Spark  09:21, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


 * More discussion of the potential offensiveness/reasonableness of the title can be found in an earlier archive. &mdash;Raymond Keller (talk) 22:19, 27 November 2008 (UTC)


 * "Five Pillars" in Islam is a bit of an artificial construct isn't it? It's not like there's a hadeeth or a verse in the Koran that actually says : "these are the five pillars of Islam"; it is a fiction that was constructed later. Eugene-elgato (talk) 08:43, 4 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Personally i think it is great, as a Muslim it made me chuckle and a little happy. I think it creates a 'common ground' between the Muslim and non-Muslim community on wikipedia. The title is great and worth keeping. I think for it to offend anyone is absurd, apart from the slightly uneducated and narrow minded fanatics. Peace and love. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BhainsRajput (talk • contribs) 14:59, 18 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Please keep the title unchanged, I had the same thoughts as BhainsRajput when I first saw "Five Pillars of Wikipedia", and was surprised to see a fellow Muslim asking for it to be changed. It's really refreshing, and what makes it all even better is that it's simply a coincidence(or fate), and a beautiful one at that! --Kray0n (talk) 04:25, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

No firm rules
"Wikipedia does not have firm rules besides the five general principles elucidated here." Is this supposed to mean that these five general principles are firm rules? Or is this supposed to mean that standing beside five general principles are no firm rules? What about saying "Wikipedia does not have firm rules, only five general principles". However, this doesn't say that the general principles are firm (if they are). If they are, then maybe it should say "Wikipedia does not have firm rules; only the five general principles do not change". Sancho 17:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * These five general principles are general principles, not detailed precisely-defined rules. —Centrx→talk &bull; 01:49, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

In title links
Currently the titles of each pillar links to a policy or guideline which has been made in accordance with the pillar (currently WP:NOT, WP:NEU, WP:COPY, WP:EQ and WP:IAR). I think it might be better if these links and prehaps the other links in the paragraphs describing the pillars were listed underneith the pillars (in kind of "See also" section) for each one. By linking directly from the text of the pillars it implies that the policy or guideline is the pillar. This presumably is not the case as the pillars are the fundamental principles of Wikipedia whereas the policies or guidelines are being constantly changed and updated through concensus. Surely there is a difference between policies and pillars (hence the need for this page) which is somewhat confused by linking the pillars directly to a policy (or even a guideline in the case of WP:EQ). Any thoughts? Guest9999 (talk) 17:42, 16 November 2007 (UTC)]]


 * There are too many links to make putting them in see-also lists economical, and it is helpful to the reader to link directly in text just as it is in articles. —Centrx→talk &bull; 19:21, 17 November 2007 (UTC)


 * What about just moving the link from the titles to somewhere in the text. By linking from the title it really does seem to imply that the policy(or guideline) = pillar. Guest9999 (talk) 11:52, 18 November 2007 (UTC)]]

The policies are the pillars, and they are constantly moving. Kind of like some kinds of floating oil platform. :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 15:55, 4 January 2008 (UTC)