Wikipedia talk:Four Award

Can a formerly deleted article qualify for a Four Award?
Does anyone have thoughts about whether a formerly deleted article can qualify for a Four Award if it was created by one user; deleted; and then recreated and taken through the DYK/GA/FAC process by another user(s)? The question is about the article on Martin Rundkvist. It was created by in 2008, then quickly taken to AfD and deleted. In 2020, I requested that the article be restored; it was placed in draft space, where I worked on it and moved it to main space. Days later it was brought back to AfD, where it again lost. It was placed back in draft space, where it sat for a year. A few months ago, and I thoroughly reworked the article, and brought it back live. It passed its good-article review, appeared at DYK, and, today, became a featured article. It seems to me that while encyclopedic content once existed before Chiswick Chap and I got involved, by at least the time of the second deletion, this content effectively ceased to exist; the recreations were restarts, and, I think, meet the standard for creating a new article. But I'd be interested to hear what others have to say. If the article qualifies, by the way, then it should likely be considered a collaborative effort. --Usernameunique (talk) 23:50, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * It's a gorgeous piece of work, but unfortunately I think it probably does not qualify for 4A. Even though the original content no longer exists in the article, it did once. If someone had created Stub X with 200 words of terrible prose, and you came in and overwrote it with a 2000-word revamp that completely removed the existing prose, it wouldn't qualify either, because you didn't create the original. By analogy, same thing here. (Although I'm willing to be convinced otherwise!) &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 23:56, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I haven't looked at this particular article, but I'd think it would have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. The logic of FOUR is to recognize persistence in improving a specific article, rather than the mere accidents of AfD/AfC, etc. The logic would hold whether an article is totally new or pre-existed a deletion. I think the main factor would depend on whether the re-created article is truly new or whether it was just a revival of the deleted article. That's my first-blush instinct.  Ergo Sum  01:46, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * For reference, here's the article as it existed right before its 2008 deletion ; right after its 2020 recreation ; and right after its 2021 recreation . The 2020 version has a few holdovers from the 2008 version, although the 2021 version is completely different. --Usernameunique (talk) 05:08, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I think Deletion to Quality Award recognizes that achievement. – Reidgreg (talk) 11:55, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

One of mine possibly ineligible?
I recently was given a four award for Duckport Canal, but it turns out there'd already been five haphazardly-referenced sentences about it at Vicksburg campaign. Does converting the article from a redlink to its very first encyclopedic content in the instructions mean that those five sentences render Duckport ineligible? Hog Farm Talk 22:53, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Speaking from a DYK perspective, we'd still consider that a new article, although I see that this was brought to DYK as a GA. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 23:02, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * It was brought to DYK as GA instead of created mainly out of "not getting around to it on time" from me... Hog Farm Talk 23:05, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I would say it does not render it ineligible. I think that part of the instructions is poorly worded and needs to be removed or revised. My guess is that it was put in there to stop people from making article splits just to get the 4A cheaply, but in my experience it only causes confusion for good-faith editors such as yourself who have created a brand-new article on something that just so happened to be mentioned elsewhere. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 23:19, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I would say it counts. A new article was created, even if the information already existed in another article on Wikipedia. I'm OK with ediors making splits to create an FA: if the new article shouldn't exist, it will be deleted at WP:AfD, and if there are continuous problems then editors can discuss that issue when it is raised. I might be biased, though, as if Duckport is disallowed then Types Riot is probably also ineligable, as it was originally a redirect to Colonial Advocate. Z1720 (talk) 02:00, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I had this whole response typed out making a guess about the origin of the rule and then I thought to look at where that phrasing was first added - May 2009. The archived discussion from that time seems to indicate that it was added to clarify that turning a redirect into an article qualifies, but expansion from a stub does not, even if the stub was literally just "The Types Riot was a riot." I don't think anyone at that time was worried about whether or not there was content at the redirect target. I'm tempted to boldly tweak the wording to make that a little more clear - does anyone object? &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 03:40, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Totally in favour of clarifying the above rule. From what I see above, there was information about the Duckport Canal in the Vicksburg campaign article, and Duckport Canal was a redirect to that section of the Vicksburg article. Likewise, information about Types Riot was in the Colonial Advocate article, and Types Riot was a redirect to that section of the Colonial Advocate article. In both of these cases, I think the articles would be allowed in FOUR because both of these articles are transforming a redirect into an article. Is there an aspect that I missed? Z1720 (talk) 17:47, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Tweak! Tweak! Gog the Mild (talk) 19:47, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I have tweaked, subject to y'all's approval. Two less-common cases I think we should clarify, even if just in a footnote or something: if you recreate an article that was previously deleted, is it eligible? Are splits eligible? Personally I'm in favor of being pretty relaxed about it, so I'm a "sure why not" to both, but I didn't want to assume. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 21:40, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
 * The FAQ's suggest that splits are considered eligible so long as there is sufficient new content to qualify for DYK. Eddie891 Talk Work 21:42, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
 * What Eddie just said. And re previously deleted articles - sure, it's a new article at the point you recreate it. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:31, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
 * PS Several of mine are neither converted redlinks nor splits; I simply wrote a new article, with mostly or largely new prose. Not sure if this means that I will get my epaulettes torn off. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:51, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Oh, I take "redlink" to mean anything that didn't previously exist as an article, ie it would have been a redlink if someone had linked to it. I would have to be sending the gazpacho police to my house to take my 4As first, as I tend to do the same :) Maybe I'll put a note like "please follow the most charitable interpretation of 'new article' since this is supposed to be fun". &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 22:57, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
 * As a side note regarding split articles, 4A was created and solidified in 2009, but the GA rule was not added to DYK until 2013. The current 4A FAQ was never updated, so it reflects 2009 DYK rules, making it a bit dated when discussing DYK credit for split articles. It feels like we're leaning somewhat more lenient here in order to encourage people to stick with articles, so I will update the FAQ to say that splits are okay so long as you're the one who did the split and then got all the relevant DYK/GA/FA credits. To be honest I can hardly imagine a situation where someone could take a big chunk out of another article and get it through GA and FA without significant editorial work, so I'm not inclined to be overly strict about it. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 23:16, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I have revamped the FAQ quite a lot. Could people have a look and advise if there are any suggestions or objections? I'm also tempted to stick the FAQ on the main page rather than hiding it on the talk page. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 00:07, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Particularly at this stage in Wikipedia's history, I agree with being charitable when interpreting what counts as a "new article" or "new content", so a split with substantial new content is okay and certainly a few sentences about a topic within a larger-scope article isn't disqualifying. I think that means I agree with everyone in this discussion, and the FAQ/rule changes that have been made.Recreating a deleted article from scratch is different to a refund creation or something where you use the existing content, but from my perspective I don't really want to be investigating whether a recreated article is "new content", because as a non-admin that's not always information I can access. — Bilorv ( talk ) 10:53, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Well, it ought to be obvious, if people are doing things properly. If a deleted article was undeleted, the original diffs will be restored to the history, and the original author will show as the first diff. (See for example Martin Rundkvist, linked above in earlier discussion about recreated deleted articles). If the article was built from a copy of a deleted article that wasn't undeleted for some reason, the reused content must be clearly attributed somewhere, or else the author is technically committing a copyright violation. So in either case, it would be obvious that the nom wasn't the original author. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 01:26, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Still no mention of brand new articles, but otherwise it all looks good to me. Thanks for sorting it out. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:07, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, you're right on that one: it should be apparent just from looking at the first diff. — Bilorv ( talk ) 21:33, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
 * , I'm confused by "no mention of brand new articles". The FAQ explicitly addresses this in Q1 and Q2. Q1 lists "a new creation" as step one, and Q2 provides more detail. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 00:32, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Backlog
Pinging several of the regulars. We have a backlog of nominations (full disclosure, one of which is mine which I, obviously, cannot review). I can work from the top if someone wants to work from the bottom to clear out the holdup.  Ergo Sum  16:22, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, I've asked (courtesy ping) to take a look at making an 4A promotion script, which should hopefully take a lot of the annoyance out of doing these. They told me they're busy at the moment but will try to look at it later in the fall. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 19:28, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
 * That would be great.  Ergo Sum  19:45, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I'll get round to it if I get time Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:47, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Currently working on one at User:Theleekycauldron/Scripts/4bes.js :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 22:46, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * <3 &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 23:44, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Is "the one we keep secret" a deliberate Community reference? Either way I love it. — Bilorv ( talk ) 20:34, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I've done the majority of promotions for the last couple of years, and it's all I can really do to watchlist the page and not let it fall off the bottom. That means that when nominations are made within 7 days of each other it doesn't hit my radar. I've appealed for help a couple of times but few others are promoting. I don't enjoy the task but I believe it's important for editor retention. The same is true of Triple Crown. I think there'd be more time invested making a script than saved from following the well-detailed instructions (although I'd use the script if someone made it). We just need more people watchlisting the page and lending a helping hand. — Bilorv ( talk ) 19:05, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The reason we can never get any traction with doing these is that the process is unbelievably tedious, so no one wants to do any. It takes like five solid minutes to do a single one, and that's if you don't make any mistakes. You have to do a bunch of fiddly templates in a fiddly table (and no cheating by forcing VE, because the templates aren't friendly to VE) and then edit like three other pages to increment numbers or set flags. A script will make that so much easier - enter the dates in the prompt box, hit enter, and it does all the other work for you. Boom. A tedious bore becomes a 30-second data entry adventure. There's no reason not to encourage a willing editor to bash up a tool for it. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 19:26, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Though checking the nomination can be trivial when you see 99% of the edits to the article were made by the creator, reviewing each criterion fully is a significant proportion of the time taken. I think it takes me 10 minutes or so to process a nomination. — Bilorv ( talk ) 19:38, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The fact that it takes you, the most active and therefore the most experienced promoter, at least ten minutes to do just one of these, is a strong argument for building a script. Any time saved on that will be valuable, both for you and for encouraging other people to step in. Although to be honest it feels like you may be overscrutinizing. People tend to self-select for this one pretty fairly; I don't think I've seen ever seen anyone make an invalid 4A nomination. I just went back and looked at the last ~150 or so edits to the nomination page and I don't see a single one where the edit summary indicates a decline. It's all "awarded", "processed", "done", etc, so it's not as though there's a rash of bad-faith or even mistaken nominations. Spending 10+ minutes to confirm each one feels like going past the point of useful returns. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 21:54, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not launching a campaign against a script that I said I'd use. I just offered my thoughts. I think there are other factors to the backlogs, like the fact that you never get positive feedback on Wikipedia for helping out, just criticism that you're doing the job wrong (e.g. "overscrutinizing"). — Bilorv ( talk ) 20:34, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Bilorv, I apologize. I didn't mean that as a criticism of you or the hard work you do. I meant it in the sense that I think you're making it harder for yourself than is necessary to get the job done. Our time as editors is valuable, it's the only currency we have here. The time you spend dealing with 4A nominations is valuable time. You could be doing anything at all on-wiki or off, and you are choosing to take on tedious work so that people can get their awards, which I think is a great kindness on your part. I want to be clear as a 4A recipient that I appreciate you and any other editors who take time to do these things. It's because I value your time and effort that I don't think you should have to spend it triple-checking things that don't seem to need to be triple-checked. That's all I meant. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 21:19, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I'll be back in a few hours and take a look - I got time today Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:48, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I've handled the last 3 - meant to yesterday and got caught up. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 23:40, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Intersection of WP:FOUR and WP:VA
FYI, I was curious about how many articles are in this intersection. Click the Do it button here to see the list. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:35, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Updating instructions
Hello friends, it's occurred to me that we should update the instructions page to be more clear about our current practices here, which lean a little more charitably and less strictly than in the past. Specifically, I think we should be explicit that articles which were converted from redirects, split from other articles, or recreated after deletion, are all acceptable. We've had discussions on this page agreeing to this and I updated the FAQ in line with these ideas in 2022, so I don't anticipate any objections, but discretion + valor etc.

I'm also going to remove the note about the Morotai Mutiny because TonyTheTiger apparently gave Ian the 4A for that one in 2011, so it's stupid to have a note saying it's disqualified. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 05:12, 1 February 2024 (UTC)